Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Lorde]

I think Mario is just terrible because there's literally a flowchart I can apply and it doesn't require a lot of thought.

Option Tree Begin: Dair, Bair, emptyjump
Mewtwo tries to punish: Fadeback with Air speed, grab.
Shield: Crossup Dair, fadeaway if use Bair

Repeat and apply pressure minutely and of course hit him with USmash or anything else really. Kind of....sad. A lot of it stems from his OoS options being remarkably poor for a light, tall, floaty character.

Mewtwo and Mario have the same airspeed, fyi.

Mewtwo is trash, though. It makes me sad because I really like how he plays in this game.

 

[kenniky]

I guess I could play for a while.

Sorry, got occupied. Can't play anymore. d:

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mewtwo and Mario have the same airspeed, fyi.

Mewtwo is trash, though. It makes me sad because I really like how he plays in this game.

What is he gonna challenge Bair with tho? I know they have the same airspeed but can he weave like Mario can? Not sure, but regardless, the Mario flowchart I think still applies because nothing he has is anything short of a commitment compared to Mario who....does not have to.

 

[FullMoon]

Sorry, got occupied. Can't play anymore. d:

No problem, I just remembered I have college work to do too.

 

[Soul.]

I won't beat around the bush. He's easy, intuitive, and efficient, at all levels of play. He only loses the "easy" part when you hit the tip top POTENTIALLY, but I'm unsure.

He's really smooth to use though, I think it's cause they finally stopped trying to make him a "Jack of all trades" and decided that he should be an up close aggressive brawler with good speed to compensate for his low range.

It only took them 4 games to realize a "balanced" char with stubby limbs isn't going to work.

Speaking of Kakyoin, trying to play Mewtwo against Mario or any other like, top char is like Kakyoin vs. Dio. Go check that out.

I guess. The only characters that scream "jack of all trades" are the Pits. Mario may be one for whatever reason but he really doesn't seem like one.
Explosive Punch is godlike

 

[TTTTTsd]

I guess. The only characters that scream "jack of all trades" are the Pits. Mario may be one for whatever reason but he really doesn't seem like one.
Explosive Punch is godlike

Mario really isn't. If anyone tells you that they're lying. He's not super great at playing uber defensive or the like, he's an up close Brawler with all the means of closing the distance and mixing up his approach. He's not really absurd but all of his attributes kind of work in his favor and let him play like that.

Explosive punch is funny, but only good in certain MUs (anyone REALLY susceptible to Uair strings). Wanna know one of them? Mewtwo ROFL (poor guy)

Spoiler: Here

 

[EODM07]

I think the only time I ever played Mario was against a friend that me and @ TTTTTsd know. But my Mario was pretty mediocre and generic back then.

Haven't used him in ages. :V

Also, back to EarthBound!

 

[Lorde]

What is he gonna challenge Bair with tho? I know they have the same airspeed but can he weave like Mario can? Not sure, but regardless, the Mario flowchart I think still applies because nothing he has is anything short of a commitment compared to Mario who....does not have to.

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with Mewtwo v. Mario being an awful MU. I just didn't know if you were aware that they have the same airspeed because you mentioned Mario using his airspeed to fade away and stuff.

Yeah, I believe Mewtwo's fastest aerial is his frame 7 nair and it's a pretty big commitment, so it's not too great for challenging anything because of the weak individual hits. I just looked it up and apparently fair is also frame 7. It has good damage and okay range so it could be decent to challenge some of Mario's moves. It still has half a second of endlag, though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with Mewtwo v. Mario being an awful MU. I just didn't know if you were aware that they have the same airspeed because you mentioned Mario using his airspeed to fade away and stuff.

Yeah, I believe Mewtwo's fastest aerial is his frame 7 nair and it's a pretty big commitment, so it's not too great for challenging anything because of the weak individual hits. I just looked it up and apparently fair is also frame 7. It has good damage and okay range so it could be decent to challenge some of Mario's moves. It still has half a second of endlag, though.

Yeah, that's generally the problem, since Mario can just....exit the area of effect in which the aerial is happening and catch him for it. It's really just Mario's speed and really good frame data vs. a slow dude who's light.

 

[Igzex]

Profound sadness

 

[Soul.]

Mario really isn't. If anyone tells you that they're lying. He's not super great at playing uber defensive or the like, he's an up close Brawler with all the means of closing the distance and mixing up his approach. He's not really absurd but all of his attributes kind of work in his favor and let him play like that.

Explosive punch is funny, but only good in certain MUs (anyone REALLY susceptible to Uair strings). Wanna know one of them? Mewtwo ROFL (poor guy)

Spoiler: Here

oh yeah I believe you posted that in the Robin social a while ago lol. Scalding F.L.U.D.D. does so much for him in customs.
Also it may be just me, but his air speed may be what makes him great in this game. Frame data/"balanced" attributes may be a factor too, but for the most part I think the air speed does wonders.

 

[TTTTTsd]

oh yeah I believe you posted that in the Robin social a while ago lol. Scalding F.L.U.D.D. does so much for him in customs.
Also it may be just me, but his air speed may be what makes him great in this game. Frame data/"balanced" attributes may be a factor too, but for the most part I think the air speed does wonders.

Air speed is 100% his potency in this game. It puts him together as a character, defines his followup game, and it is what makes his damage building so good.

His movement speed outside of his airspeed is mostly the same from Brawl, but as you can see that one change did wonders.

 

[Igzex]

I curse thee to have the next update turn Mario into Brawl Mario. He'd be an exact copy of Brawl Mario and would even have tripping and people being able to act out of his hitstun ontop of his own sad Brawl traits.

...
Yeah make Nintendo's icon a low tier why the heck is Brawl even a game.

 

[Cress!]

@ EODM07 I basically have Storm Drain Gastrodons pouring out of my ears lol
I won't be home for a few hours though if you do want to trade.

 

[Ffamran]

His movement speed outside of his airspeed is mostly the same from Brawl, but as you can see that one change did wonders.

Mario's running speed used to be 1.5 in Melee and Brawl. Amusingly, Dr. Mario's running speed was 1.5 in Melee too, but now he's at 1.312. Now, it's 1.6 while Luigi moved up to Mario's old running speed from his Melee and Brawl's 1.34. Remember who else had a 1.5 running speed? Falco. Thanks, a lot for that 0.040 increase from Brawl to Smash 4! We're still missing 0.028 to be running at our Melee glory days of 1.5 running speed. Oh, and reducing our standing grab's startup to 7, a 1 frame difference, would also put us back to our Melee glory days. Also, thanks for moving Ike and Kirby up from 1.371 in Brawl to 1.5 in Smash 4. Yeah, we needed to be slower than a musclebound, armor wearing, two-handed sword carrying man and a puffball. 0.1 and above makes a difference, especially if you're slow or on the lower average of running speed. Also, meanwhile, Roy from his 1.61 Melee running speed to 1.9-something - he's faster than Meta Knight, but slower than Charizard - in Smash 4. Can Falco have Roy's Melee running speed. It's not like he needs it. *grumpy face*

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario's running speed used to be 1.5 in Melee and Brawl. Amusingly, Dr. Mario's running speed was 1.5 in Melee too, but now he's at 1.312. Now, it's 1.6 while Luigi moved up to Mario's old running speed from his Melee and Brawl's 1.34. Remember who else had a 1.5 running speed? Falco. Thanks, a lot for that 0.040 increase! We're still missing 0.028 to be running at our Melee glory days of 1.5 running speed. Oh, and reducing our standing grab's startup to 7, a 1 frame difference, would also put us back to our Melee glory days. Also, thanks for moving Ike and Kirby up from 1.371 in Brawl to 1.5 in Smash 4. Yeah, we needed to be slower than a musclebound, armor wearing, two-handed sword carrying man and a puffball. 0.1 and above makes a difference, especially if you're slow or on the lower average of running speed. Also, meanwhile, Roy from his 1.61 Melee running speed to 1.9-something - he's faster than Meta Knight, but slower than Charizard. Can Falco have Roy's Melee running speed. It's not like he needs it. *grumpy face*

Your character can Nair every fatty and fastfaller in this game like twenty times. If he was running fast I'd be quite honestly incredibly terrified. (he's also someone I mess around with, apparently a lot of my friends think he's my best? Might be worth investing in....)

Just fix his jab and we'll be fine, your character seriously has an incredibly cohesive kit that makes a former Doc main incredibly sad. His entire air game flows so well as does his ground game, it's like poetry. Now if his shield game could flow, I would feel whole....

 

[EODM07]

@ EODM07 I basically have Storm Drain Gastrodons pouring out of my ears lol
I won't be home for a few hours though if you do want to trade.

Nah I'm good. I think I can get one fairly easily. Just the right nature for it. Either Sassy, Relaxed, Bold or Calm.
Plus need that missing sixth one.

 

[Rizen]

@ Ffamran how would you rank Falco (upper low tier for example)? Also what would you say his good/bad/even MUs are?
/just curious

 

[kenniky]

@ Ffamran how would you rank Falco (upper low tier for example)? Also what would you say his good/bad/even MUs are?
/just curious

last

0:100 everyone

 

[TTTTTsd]

last

0:100 everyone

He has a losing MU against the gum under my shoe

(But no really you really Ffam you make Falco sound so much worse than he actually is sometimes :V)

 

[kenniky]

Meta Knight is so fun to play.

 

[smokebomb12]

Good morning gorls. What's going on in the part of the woods?

Falco is decent in this game. He's not OP, but he has some good play making decisions as well.

 

[Ffamran]

Your character can Nair every fatty and fastfaller in this game like twenty times. If he was running fast I'd be quite honestly incredibly terrified. (he's also someone I mess around with, apparently a lot of my friends think he's my best? Might be worth investing in....)

Just fix his jab and we'll be fine, your character seriously has an incredibly cohesive kit that makes a former Doc main incredibly sad. His entire air game flows so well as does his ground game, it's like poetry. Now if his shield game could flow, I would feel whole....

I just want Falco to not run slower than a bipedal dog, Lucario, a puffball, Kirby, a blob of peoples, Mii Swordfighter, Luigi, a kid, Lucas, an obese man, Wario, and a man in armor, Ike. Olimar is only 0.002 units slower than Falco. A little Hocotatian with stubby *** legs can keep up with a former gang member and was once enrolled in the Cornerian Academy. You may be a pilot with weird, chunky fingers that I find hilarious, but even the air force has to be physically fit. How the hell are you running slower than them? You should be running at least at Ike's speed and at most to stop Falco from being an insane force, Ryu's speed. Yes, Ryu another physically fit man who unlike Ike, isn't weighed down by anything. You're only wearing metal greaves! You're not wearing freaking armor and carrying a giant sword! Freaking science-boy Shulk runs faster than you and he's only got a highly advanced laser sword! WHY!? Wolf made up his slow speed by gliding through the air! You're a freaking pheasant! FLAP THOSE WINGS!

Then I look at Dr. Mario and see he runs slower than an obese penguin and an obese man, Wario, runs circles around him. Are you kidding me? That lab coat better be loaded with ballistic plating, but it's not! Dr. Mario weighs the same as Mario. If Dr. Mario weighed at Yoshi or ROB's level, that might be good for him, but that's not happening is it, Mewtwo, Mr. Second Lightest in The Game. VIDEO GAME LOGIC! ARGH!!!

The very least is they could give him an air speed of 0.90 instead of 0.893. At least it's not as stupid as Luigi's 0.73148, Pikachu's 0.9118 or Ness's 0.9588. Or hell, how about 1.0, so Falco won't end up moving overall slower than Fox and Wolf. Fox already has him beat in both ground speed and air speed while Wolf's gliding around in the air like he was born a bird and Falco was born a frog. Oh wait, Greninja's a frog and his air speed is top notch. *more grumpy face*

@ Ffamran how would you rank Falco (upper low tier for example)? Also what would you say his good/bad/even MUs are?
/just curious

Eh... Somewhere in 35-40.

He has a losing MU against the gum under my shoe

(But no really you really Ffam you make Falco sound so much worse than he actually is sometimes :V)

Well, he gets wrecked by Rosalina, but there's not a lot of characters known who aren't getting wrecked by Rosalina like... Captain Falcon who goes 20:80. Remember that, gorls?

That's like his only major issue along with Luigi's stupid shenanigans, customs Palutena who is essentially a rushdown Rosalina, and probably Meta Knight for the same reasons of Rosalina can juggle this bird like he was a juggling pin. Everything else more or less stops at 50:50 and is around 40:60 or the occasional, but not really that much of a big deal since not many people play them 30:70. If Rosalina, Meta Knight, Luigi, Shulk, and customs Palutena were the norm and heavily popular instead of Sheik, Diddy, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Luigi, Falco would basically be not viable at all. Zelda and Samus would have better chances in that metagame than Falco. With the many Luigi players, that's only Falco's major issue. Glad as hell I don't live in Dabuz's region, but Chicago has like 2-3 top 10 Rosalina players, so yeah... If I ever travel there - it's like a 2-3 hour road trip -, I'm going to get my *** handed solely because of Rosalina murdering Falco. Sheik played right against Falco is probably 30:70or worse, but played wrong, it might be 40:60 since if you can't kill Falco properly, Falco's going to abuse rage and his on-reaction instant punishes like Dtilt, Bair, and even Utilt.

What would be nice without breaking stuff is reducing some end lag on his Blaster. If customs are allowed, Fox's end lag of 40 on both his default and Impact Blaster more or less overshadows Falco's default and Burst Blaster. Falco's only positives would be continuous fire with his default Blaster. Before patch 1.1.0, Burst Blaster had 3 frames less end lag than Fox's default Blaster. That was the main draw and difference between their chip damage projectiles: Falco had less end lag and had less startup in the air while Fox's had more range, fired faster in between shots, and damage. Now? Falco's Burst Blaster is *** as Fox's default Blaster has more range, does more damage, fires faster, and has the same end lag. If you want to have chip damage, you're better off moving your cursor to the left and picking default Fox. Between Falco's default Blaster and Fox's Impact Blaster, the main draw of Falco's was the ability to continually fire, more damage, and slightly more range while Fox's was the lower end lag. Well, Fox now has even lower end lag. It used to be frame 43 when Fox could act like with default Blaster, but now they're both 40. Falco can't act until frame 59 on the ground and 50 in the air. Before the patch, he couldn't act until 16 frames after Fox on the ground or 7 in the air. Now it's 19 on the ground and 10 in the air. That really hurts as Fox's Impact Blaster is even faster than Falco's for end lag. The range difference is just 2 blocks on Mushroomy Kingdom; Falco's default Blaster covers 15 blocks while Fox's Impact Blaster covers 13. The end lag is what matters, especially when Falco's is in the 20 frames area compared to Fox now. Also, like you said, Dr. Mario getting some end lag reduction to his Megavitamins would be great. He has 53 frames of end lag like Mario? That works for Mario when he can weave in and out. That doesn't work for Dr. Mario when he can't.

 

[Lavani]

Falco is a pheasant, not an ostrich or roadrunner.

 

[smokebomb12]

Melee and Brawl Falco I miss.

 

[Soul.]

Melee and Brawl Falco I miss.

Careful with what you say; you don't want Ffam to make another tl;dr explaining why he doesn't want Brawl Falco back.

 

[smokebomb12]

Careful with what you say; you don't want Ffam to make another tl;dr explaining why he doesn't want Brawl Falco back.

Brawl Falco was awesome.

 

[Captain Zack]

brawl falco triggers me

 

[Soul.]

I loved almost every character in Brawl.
Now time for my usual Brawl/Smash 4 character comparison.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco is a pheasant, not an ostrich or roadrunner.

Chickens run fast and so do pheasants relative to their size. They don't run as fast as roadrunners or ostriches, but they're pretty okay compared to ducks. Apparently, pheasants have a burst speed for flying, 60 mph, and fly pretty fast at 38 mph... Can Falco have good air speed acceleration? I don't care if he has to have air speed slower than Triple D if it means he can reach top speed instantly. Also, wolves run faster than foxes, but Fox runs much faster than Wolf. At least PM made it more accurate.

brawl falco triggers me

Brawl Falco makes me want to vomit. When I was a kid, it all, "Cool! Falco!" And then I realized the implications of stupid game design with his Blaster.

 

[Space Stranger]

I see came crawling back to . Now she can be bumped up to top of low tier.

 

[kenniky]

I feel like Ffamran has typed the most words out of anyone on this website.

 

[Ffamran]

I feel like Ffamran has typed the most words out of anyone on this website.

But it's fun to type!

See, you can argue, ask questions, post asinine stuff, and fill the screen with large amounts of text nobody wants to read. Do you like words? I like words - everyone should like words! Did you know that koalas have 2 opposable thumbs? Fascinating isn't, word? Ya feel me? Woooooooooooords.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also, like you said, Dr. Mario getting some end lag reduction to his Megavitamins would be great. He has 53 frames of end lag like Mario? That works for Mario when he can weave in and out. That doesn't work for Dr. Mario when he can't.

Yes, for better or worse Doc is basically copypasted Mario frame data.

This is for the best in most conceivable scenarios except for this one. Although variances would break the rule, there's been dumber variances between clones in this game, I'm willing to make an exception (this is not bias at all)

FOR INSTANCE Lucina FSmash can't hit people on platforms (such a poor lil girl, actual vertical hitbox differences!)

 

[Project Crysis]

@ Project Crysis we in the sheik social now.

Oh boy I've never even venture here lol

 

[EODM07]

But it's fun to type!

See, you can argue, ask questions, post asinine stuff, and fill the screen with large amounts of text nobody wants to read. Do you like words? I like words - everyone should like words! Did you know that koalas have 2 opposable thumbs? Fascinating isn't, word? Ya feel me? Woooooooooooords.

 

[Soul.]

dem gorls be discussing the MU lol.

 

[smokebomb12]

Anyone want to play Smash?

 

[EODM07]

I swear the Fourside Dept Store was never this difficult before.

I keep on having Jeff die to Coffee Cups. =_=
Stupid things. (I do have Ness at Lv. 39 and Jeff at Lv. 34. They just always seem to do too much damage. :V)

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

@ Captain Zack Oh my god, you're my fav. See, I knew you were a top of the line Peach. Slayyyy. I'll have our replays up this weekend assuming I have enough time to make a new Youtube account (no idea what my old one's email and password is), so our your greatness will be displayed, but with a little more bias towards because . I'm still surprised Zelda won because lol Zelda. At least I didn't play Samus. You would've 3-stocked me then.

First replay is 5:40, second is 4:19, third is 4:04... How am I supposed to get around the 3 minute time limit. Why is that even a thing. I guess I'll be posting six videos.