Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Berserker.]

I don't think Lucas is that good either but he isn't bottom five. Lol

 

[FullMoon]

Nobody really agreed with him about Lucas though, Dabuz himself said Lucas was being underrated later.

Lucas is definitely not as good as Ness but saying that he's Ness with everything good removed is just a flat-out lie.

 

[Seagull Joe]

what
do you know who is seagull joe
sonic? hammer spin dash?
does that ring a bell

I've literally used hammer spindash during three tournaments ever. Evo, last Xanadu, and vs Cyclone Dk one time. Customs are trash. Japan thinks so. Most entrants to evo think so. The dream of them not being used has finally arrived.

 

[Rickster]

All the new DLC characters seem solid to me. I rank them Ryu>>Roy>Lucas. Ryu just has so much potential imo.

Ayyy Seagull Joe!

I was pretty open about customs at Smash 4's release but...more and more problematic things kept popping up and now I don't want them, lol.

It also doesn't help that Zelda has bad customs and would struggle even more than she already does in a custom metagame.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is just true trash lool. Sorry to say.

 

[Rickster]

Personally I don't think she's as bad as everyone thinks she is. I think she's really underrated. Now I'm not saying she's like high tier (lol I wish...) but I think she can make it in low tier at least...maybe even low mid but that's a bit of a stretch.

Of course no matter what anyone says people are still gonna put her as the worst character.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm glad people are realizing that customs are bad (Actually, I'm sure everyone realized this from the moment they went into their first customs tourney)

The game's being patched anyway, so we don't need customs to make characters more viable. Just pray for a buff or hope that your character is low/bottom or mid tier in the JP tier list. If your character still sucks well ****. You can always switch to a better character

 

[Rizen]

I'll wifi if anyone in/near the states wants?

 

[LancerStaff]

Nobody really agreed with him about Lucas though, Dabuz himself said Lucas was being underrated later.

Lucas is definitely not as good as Ness but saying that he's Ness with everything good removed is just a flat-out lie.

I don't think he's bottom five either, but it's a hard opinion to ignore...

Lucas's advantages are limited to extremely minor advantages like a slightly better Fsmash or the more powerful but situational Usmash, grab combos completely reliant on what's probably the worst grab in the game, and the Zair. It's just that I can't think of a single reason to ever pick him over Ness. Dark Pit has one freakin' move that's not worse then Pit's equivalent and that opens up a few better matchups. Lucas has zero better matchups, or close to it.

 

[Antonykun]

is just true trash lool. Sorry to say.

in this part of the woods that would be the most like bait thing to say

 

[BJN39]

is just true trash lool. Sorry to say.

At least we don't have to argue about that! Come around any time.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Customs are legit, these tools are simply different and people still haven't figured the meta just yet

 

[Cress!]

I'll wifi if anyone in/near the states wants?

Wii U version? If so, I'll play!

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think he's bottom five either, but it's a hard opinion to ignore...

Lucas's advantages are limited to extremely minor advantages like a slightly better Fsmash or the more powerful but situational Usmash, grab combos completely reliant on what's probably the worst grab in the game, and the Zair. It's just that I can't think of a single reason to ever pick him over Ness. Dark Pit has one freakin' move that's not worse then Pit's equivalent and that opens up a few better matchups. Lucas has zero better matchups, or close to it.

It's pretty easy to ignore his opinion when he does stuff like placing Pac-Man and Greninja in low tier, I think he placed Ryu in low tier too.

Lucas is still too new to have defined MUs but I can already see him doing better against and , the former because his recovery isn't as wrecked by Gravitational Pull as Ness's and the latter because Lucas can zone him out really well unlike Ness.

Z-Air is a huge thing even if it might not look like it. Z-Air by itself outranges so many characters and has basically no landing lag and can also starts combos if used close to the opponent.

He's not as good as Ness though. He has more problematic MUs than him (like Greninja) but Ness's presence doesn't completely invalidate Lucas especially when they don't even play the same way.

 

[Moydow]

Can someone actually explain to me what exactly the problems people have with customs are? All I've ever seen is people moaning about Kong Cyclone or custom Villager or whatever the hated custom of the week is, and that they're too much to learn, or something like that, but the only argument I've seen that I actually agree with is the logistics - that it's too much effort to unlock all of them, and that 10 sets aren't enough. From what I saw of Evo, Kong Cyclone and co. can be dealt with, and aren't the problem. So what exactly is the problem?

 

[Rizen]

Wii U version? If so, I'll play!

Okay, let me fire up the wii u. Edit friend request sent and room is up. GLHF
Edit @ Moydow
http://smashboards.com/threads/zeld...-in-our-hearts.344739/page-2087#post-19677513

 

[ぱみゅ]

Can someone actually explain to me what exactly the problems people have with customs are? All I've ever seen is people moaning about Kong Cyclone or custom Villager or whatever the hated custom of the week is, and that they're too much to learn, or something like that, but the only argument I've seen that I actually agree with is the logistics - that it's too much effort to unlock all of them, and that 10 sets aren't enough. From what I saw of Evo, Kong Cyclone and co. can be dealt with, and aren't the problem. So what exactly is the problem?

Muh vanella geym

 

[Cress!]

grab combos completely reliant on what's probably the worst grab in the game

Wii Fit Trainer has a worse grab.
Tether with lots of endlag>Regular grab with no range and completely misses small characters like Kirby and G&W.

 

[Rizen]

Wii U version? If so, I'll play!

Sorry this lag is too bad. GGs :/

 

[Ffamran]

My idea of banning all good Specials is still there... Y'know, make all characters bad, limit them horribly, and let some characters get off scot-free because their bad Specials aren't bad and sometimes even good? Oh, and nerf Falco to oblivion because I just want to see that backlash, pathetic crying, moaning, rage, ********, and empty death threats. I want to see this world burn.

 

[Furret]

I've literally used hammer spindash during three tournaments ever. Evo, last Xanadu, and vs Cyclone Dk one time. Customs are trash. Japan thinks so. Most entrants to evo think so. The dream of them not being used has finally arrived.

are they? I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch, but I wish we would just put the lid on them for now

Can someone actually explain to me what exactly the problems people have with customs are? All I've ever seen is people moaning about Kong Cyclone or custom Villager or whatever the hated custom of the week is, and that they're too much to learn, or something like that, but the only argument I've seen that I actually agree with is the logistics - that it's too much effort to unlock all of them, and that 10 sets aren't enough. From what I saw of Evo, Kong Cyclone and co. can be dealt with, and aren't the problem. So what exactly is the problem?

There's no true massive problem with customs or at the very least we haven't found it yet. However, it is nice to avoid

• gimmicks
• new 'tools' that require players to have more match up knowledge in game with enough of it already
• adding in what was quoted from the one of the developers to never be receiving balance changes
• Forcing players to work to just be able to work with all the moves (aka logistics)
• having to separate scenes for two different formats, further splitting the community
• potential infinites, more of a general concern, but there are more and easier possibilities with customs (just let me tech after footstool sakurai)
• customs don't speed up the game (an old argument as to why we should play customs) what so ever and in more cases slow it down

now or never is an idiotic mentality

is just true trash lool. Sorry to say.

why did you bother with that deduction, we already know the truth

in this part of the woods that would be the most like bait thing to say

you actually think we refute that?

 

[Shrokatii]

Can someone actually explain to me what exactly the problems people have with customs are? All I've ever seen is people moaning about Kong Cyclone or custom Villager or whatever the hated custom of the week is, and that they're too much to learn, or something like that, but the only argument I've seen that I actually agree with is the logistics - that it's too much effort to unlock all of them, and that 10 sets aren't enough. From what I saw of Evo, Kong Cyclone and co. can be dealt with, and aren't the problem. So what exactly is the problem?

im just going to throw my two cents: theyre simply unnecessary for competitive play. they arent anything essential, so i see no real use or reason to use them.

@ Rizen did a good job with the planking analogy though.

 

[Antonykun]

Muh vanella geym

and muh jank can't forget muh jank
seriously i hope Nintendo takes evo as an opportunity to nerf the problematic customs. remove that stup ac window on kong cyclone and Make EBT dissapear when grabbing the ledge

 

[McKnightlíght]

Customs are eww



But I don't care either way.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There's no true massive problem with customs or at the very least we haven't found it yet. However, it is nice to avoid

• gimmicks
• new 'tools' that require players to have more match up knowledge in game with enough of it already
• adding in what was quoted from the one of the developers to never be receiving balance changes
• Forcing players to work to just be able to work with all the moves (aka logistics)
• having to separate scenes for two different formats, further splitting the community
• potential infinites, more of a general concern, but there are more and easier possibilities with customs (just let me tech after footstool sakurai)
• customs don't speed up the game (an old argument as to why we should play customs) what so ever and in more cases slow it down

now or never is an idiotic mentality

All of that sounds like laziness from the players' part.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's pretty easy to ignore his opinion when he does stuff like placing Pac-Man and Greninja in low tier, I think he placed Ryu in low tier too.

Lucas is still too new to have defined MUs but I can already see him doing better against and , the former because his recovery isn't as wrecked by Gravitational Pull as Ness's and the latter because Lucas can zone him out really well unlike Ness.

Z-Air is a huge thing even if it might not look like it. Z-Air by itself outranges so many characters and has basically no landing lag and can also starts combos if used close to the opponent.

He's not as good as Ness though. He has more problematic MUs than him (like Greninja) but Ness's presence doesn't completely invalidate Lucas especially when they don't even play the same way.

Rosalina I see dumping on Lucas anyway, lacking most of Ness's tools and all. If it's better, it's not enough to actually consider using him over another secondary. Most people say gravitational pull is irrelevant for the recovery because Ness is basically dead anyway because of her offstage game.

Again, I'm not seeing it. Luigi isn't going to wriggle up and die because of an aerial PK fire and a Zair.

Zair may be huge, but doesn't remotely make up for all his weaknesses. They're not even all that different, and basically all of the actual playstyle differences come from Lucas being inferior. It's like when people say Dark Pit is more aggro... Yeah he is, but it's literally only because his arrows are terrible. No improved dash speed or extra % on his Fair... Just because he lacks an option another has.

Wii Fit Trainer has a worse grab.
Tether with lots of endlag>Regular grab with no range and completely misses small characters like Kirby and G&W.

Not only are small characters uncommon, you can barely call Rope Snake a tether. I'll take a grab that works in matchups that matter over one that never works.

Can someone actually explain to me what exactly the problems people have with customs are? All I've ever seen is people moaning about Kong Cyclone or custom Villager or whatever the hated custom of the week is, and that they're too much to learn, or something like that, but the only argument I've seen that I actually agree with is the logistics - that it's too much effort to unlock all of them, and that 10 sets aren't enough. From what I saw of Evo, Kong Cyclone and co. can be dealt with, and aren't the problem. So what exactly is the problem?

I just think "why bother?" Do we gain anything significant from it? Balance wise, I don't see it being much better then defaults, especially when we have characters like Rosalina further invalidating others and ones like Zelda who are terrible already and gain jack squat. And honestly, there's no real depth gained from using them. There's no magical customs counterpick outside of particular mirror matches.

That, and dealing with things like Dong Cyclone just aren't fun. Yes, Shiek and Sonic aren't fun with defaults, but we don't need more of that and there's actually hope for those two to be patched.

 

[McKnightlíght]

.............


But Sonic is fun.........



......

 

[Ffamran]

The issue I see with customs are they're kind of half *****. I mean, you've got the Mii Fighter, Mega Man, and Palutena customs which are beautifully and thoughtfully - let's pretend Helicopter Kick doesn't exist - done. Then there's stuff like Little Mac, Ganondorf, Ike, and Duck Hunt's where yes, they're mostly property changes, but they look, interact, and work differently. Little Mac gains different elements, counter interactions, and even hit interactions with stuff like Guard Breaker.

And then you have Ness, Falco, and Fox's customs that are just property changes, reused ideas, and even taken from other characters who should have kept their unique moves, but hey, if they're not in the game by default, they're utter trash and can be cannibalized. Falco's customs are literally property changes with only Explosive Blaster being more than change a color here, change startup here, and change damage. Fox not only gets property changes, he also gets Wolf Flash, a powered up Fire Wolf, and his 64 Blaster. Better than Falco's, but copying and pasting 2 moves? That's right, Ness has 4 moves copied and pasted from Lucas. Really?

If Ryu had customs, having Akuma and Ken's versions of their moves would be cool. Those characters had similar, not stupid, and different-functioning moves. It's not like giving Falco a Fox Blaster or a faster Fire Bird and calling it a day. The least you could do was change an element like making Fast Fire Bird be Electric Bird, but no, almost all of Falco's customs are reskins.

My issue with customs are that they're kind of there just because. It's like the developers just screwed with the numbers, picked random colors, copied and pasted old ideas or from other characters, and called it a day for about 80% of the customs with only Mii Fighters, Palutena, and Mega Man having unique ones. If Mega Man's customs weren't unique, I bet people would flip their **** since it's Mega Man, a character from a franchise with tons of powerups. Speaking of which, where's Luigi's Thunderhand? Where's the hammers and boomerangs used in the Mario games? Where's the ice arrows, bomb arrows, walking bombs, Ice Beam, Wave Beam, various other Arms, and Orbitars used in Zelda, Metroid, and Kid Icarus: Uprising? Hell, the fact that Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dr. Mario share customs is worse since they could have had different customs to make them, well, different. Dr. Mario could have had a Shoryureppa where he commits more, but has a stronger SJP. One short SJP like he's doing an Utilt, so no jumping like Ol' One-Two, and a SJP finisher, but nope, just Mario's SJP customs which are arguably worse since the Doc's default SJP is already a good kill move.

 

[Furret]

All of that sounds like laziness from the players' part.

ok then everyone is lazy and is unwilling to learn customs, call it what you want, I don't care and I don't care for custom tournaments. They aren't any fun to watch, learn or play for me

 

[McKnightlíght]

is just true trash lool. Sorry to say.

Gorl, it's spelled tr4sh

 

[Rizen]

I can't believe people are still defending customs.

Anyone want to play wii u wifi?

 

[Locke 06]

My $.02 on customs:

Increased volatility and punish options makes the game more campy. It makes the game more like Brawl while making the game like Brawl - with increased frequency of "special attributes" like super armor, unblockable, additional shield damage, multi-hit/piercing, windbox, grounding, tripping, paralyzing, freezing, etc. Also, custom animations are weird. Jumping headbutt/lightning punch looks jank, charging a move to make it smaller (sun salutation) is counter intuitive, big projectiles look like a joke (giant header/big bombs?). Like Ffamran said, they feel like a good thought in development that was made for certain characters, but then they couldn't come up with customs for the rest of the cast and just made questionable decisions.

Just because they're not broken, doesn't mean I have to like them.



Edit: Oh, and logistically it's still bad.

 

[Ffamran]

ok then everyone is lazy and is unwilling to learn customs, call it what you want, I don't care and I don't care for custom tournaments. They aren't any fun to watch, learn or play for me

Dude, why do you think people played Diddy, Luigi, and Little Mac? Especially at launch, you could get away with so much with Diddy. Because of the internet, people knew about D-throw to Uair, people knew about Luigi's D-throw, and people knew about Little Mac being a newcomer and people being unfamiliar with the game. Now, and patches don't help, people are getting exposed by how bad they are and people know much more about the game and how to deal with things. People used to think Sheik and Fox were bad, but man, were they wrong. Remember when people thought Bowser was top tier?

People are inherently lazy, so instead of sucking it up and learning, they're going to just cry and moan. You can't know anything about a game that's not a year old and at release, it was barely months old. So, instead of figuring out how to deal with Diddy, how to stop him from grabbing you, etc., they just cried that Diddy was broken. Was he? Compared to Meta Knight, no, but relative to Smash 4? Slightly. Slightly because his Uair was way too good and way too versatile of a move. Now? He's good and he was always good, but people love to exaggerate things so Diddy's mid tier now.

The issue is that people still don't know everything about Melee, Street Fighter II, or even Mario 64. Now, let's add customs. That's pretty much doubling the amount of things to learn. If it were up to me, default should be mastered and focused for about 3 years with customs being there, but not a main focus. The focus is learning the core of the game and then learning the other side of it, the branch, the customs metagame. After that, both could be equalized. At least people would be skilled enough at the core game after 3 freaking years to deal with everything since hey, Villager does not need customs to camp. Customs just makes it more difficult when nobody actually understands Villager at a basic level. People still don't understand Diddy since D-throw and Uair ruled his metagame which leaves other moves just there, unexplored, and will catch people off guard like U-throw, Dtilt, B-reversed Banana Peels, and Rocketbarrel Boost.

"Optimal" Sonic as Static Manny plays is still flawed even if it's a strong play style that works with Sonic's strengths. It's unsightly to watch, but it's a proven and strong play style which imitators and amateurs don't do well, but here's the thing, when nobody really understands how to use or fight Sonic what do you do? Try to figure it out, but most people won't and just complain about how Sonic "ignores neutral". A player never has an obligation to approach even if they're losing. I mean you could just stand there and get beat up if you want, but that's the thing. Sonic can just stand there. Well, how do you punish that, how do you deal with that, or how do you stop that? Questions still being answered and funny enough, questions that existed since Brawl. Questions people don't want to figure out because the "easy way" of complaining is better. And then aggressive Sonic players like 6wX show up and Sonic's still trashed. Talk about immature hypocrites.

 

[Locke 06]

Oh, EVO was on Sportscenter. Apparently someone popped off during Quarterfinals before winning the set. He stood up and celebrated, round 2 of the last game started, and he got perfected before he sat back down to lose the set.

 

[r_greening1]

He's either 'cute' or 'kewl'. :[

Spoiler

He is pretty cute

I'm hoping we'll see some good Roys, Ryus, and Lucases emerge once they're not banned from stuff anymore.

Well, we now have Sethlon :^)

is just true trash lool. Sorry to say.

All of that sounds like laziness from the players' part.

Tbh limiting all players who play a character to only 10 different movesets doesn't sound like laziness on the player's part. That just sounds like a lack of customization for customs (weird right?)

 

[Rizen]

A player never has an obligation to approach even if they're losing.

The losing player must approach or be timed out. Just saying.

 

[Ffamran]

The losing player must approach or be timed out. Just saying.

They can still choose to rage quit, SD, or be continue to play really passively. How they approach is also up to them. The losing player could just stop playing, pull out a chocolate bar, and eat it slowly while getting timed out. There is never an obligation to do anything. I mean, if player 1 dies and player 2 is at 80% with 2 stocks and there's still 4 minutes left, player 1 does not have to bumrush thinking they're going to lose in a hostage situation causing millions of lives to die. Player 1 can just wait it out, find an opening, a pattern, or bait something. Time is both short and long, what you to make it count is what matters. Even SD'ing seconds into the match while the opponent is still on fresh stocks does not mean you have to approach. You can just figure things out and win.

This goes to the winning player too. I mean, if your opponent SD seconds into the match and hasn't even done 1% on you, you have no obligation to do anything. It's not fun to watch and you're likely to get booed, but you can just run out 5 minutes and 45 seconds. Or just whittle your opponent away, drive them insane, and sadistically make their day. You don't have to close out their last stock in 30 seconds just because.

 

[Rizen]

^Well okay but for all intents and purposes of competitive smash, the losing play must approach. The shouldn't recklessly rush it but one way or another they have to get the lead again.

 

[Ffamran]

^Well okay but for all intents and purposes of competitive smash, the losing play must approach. The shouldn't recklessly rush it but one way or another they have to get the lead again.

Well, both players must approach, but how and why is up to them. In most cases, people just bumrush or try for predictable, punishable approaches. Even then, predictable approaches aren't being challenged nor are people recovering. This isn't Melee or PM where people drop like rocks and have horrid recoveries. Just try something off-stage. Even Little Mac can try for footstool gimps as an off-stage edgeguard.

One thing I want to see is someone actually stop playing the game and start munching on cookies or something... No wait! Better idea: player 1 knows they're losing, so they challenge player 2 to see if player 2 can kill them faster than they can eat a cheeseburger.

That and I want to see a ragequit from the winner. In bizzaro world, ZeRo won this EVO, but instead of handshaking or celebrating, he rips out his GCN controller, throws it down, and stomps on it. Afterwards, he grabs Mr. R by his collar, looks him dead in his eyes, and says, "You were supposed to win." ZeRo leaves without even taking the money, trophies, or his broken GCN controller.

 

[Koiba]

Are we talking about customs again? -_-

Well might as well give my 2 cents on it too

Why would you have customs on if default is perfectly fine?

It's like the community wants to split up

And what everyone else said here I guess :/