Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[SBphiloz4]

Gorls I'm the most fraudulent of them all. I consider as a secondary but I only have a 48% win rate with her. =p

 

[FullMoon]

You probably fight tougher opponents than I do V=

How many matches have you played online with ninja anyway? I have 2138 and I'm pretty sure at least half of them is FG.

 

[Spirst]

The Mewtwo board already has him debunked because nobody good enough plays as him.

Huh, have we? I'm leading the MU thread there and we haven't even started focused discussion yet. We'll get to Falco soon enough and then all 3 Falco players can contribute.

 

[Rizen]

I can wifi now if anyone wants?

 

[Antonykun]

me and a freind thought it would be fun if we did doubles as 1111 default Swordfighter and Zelda respectively
we won

 

[Lavani]

How many matches have you played online with ninja anyway? I have 2138 and I'm pretty sure at least half of them is FG.

489/616 for actual matches.

are the only three characters I have a noticeable amount of matches done with, and even then is around half as many as (~1120/~930/616, respectively)

Huh, have we? I'm leading the MU thread there and we haven't even started focused discussion yet. We'll get to Falco soon enough and then all 3 Falco players can contribute.

That is at least x1.5 more Falco players than I thought existed.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

81%
65%
54%
52%
49%

It's obvious I only care about Palutena right now, lol.

I think I'm gonna give Mario and Sonic another chance. They may not be as fun as they are in P:M but I do enjoy playing them sometimes. Maybe if I git gud I'll like them more...!

 

[Antonykun]

=90%
= 84%
=66%
In Swordfighter's defense i play a lot as him vs level 9 cpus

 

[FullMoon]

The MU table in the Rosalina boards is such a mess lol. 51:49 is such a dumb ratio to give a MU.

I'm so expecting them to rate Rosalina/Greninja to be like 70:30 her favor since you only see a competent Greninja player once in a blue moon.

And I don't even know much of the MU to really say much about it either.

 

[Sonsa]

In Villager's defense we don't do scheduled MUs and @ Sonsa MU extraordinaire has posted on falco AND we went to talk about Villager vs Falco on the falco boards

I've been summoned? Aw thanks, yeah, actually found someone and had a pretty informative set. Sorry I haven't done a huge write-up but we pretty much believe it's even. Falco usually gets slept on sadly cause...he's not Fox I guess? I think Falco can give Villager a harder time than Fox though.

But yeah, that Lucina MU thread is gorgeous...sad a few MU threads aren't really...mm... maintained much? Can be due to a lot of factors, I know for a long time Bowz June didnt have an MU thread till some suggestions were made, now the OP is busy with school which is of course very important, but yknow, still not a lot going on there. Is this off-topic? I feel so out of place haha

 

[SBphiloz4]

"If Persona characters had Smash Bros. mains"
- sees that Zelda is lined up with da other waifu Yukiko

Yeeeeees~

 

[Soul.]

My FG win rate is whatever.

 

[FullMoon]

Anyone wants to play some matches on Wii U?

 

[Antonykun]

I've been summoned? Aw thanks, yeah, actually found someone and had a pretty informative set. Sorry I haven't done a huge write-up but we pretty much believe it's even. Falco usually gets slept on sadly cause...he's not Fox I guess? I think Falco can give Villager a harder time than Fox though.

But yeah, that Lucina MU thread is gorgeous...sad a few MU threads aren't really...mm... maintained much? Can be due to a lot of factors, I know for a long time Bowz June didnt have an MU thread till some suggestions were made, now the OP is busy with school which is of course very important, but yknow, still not a lot going on there. Is this off-topic? I feel so out of place haha

do me a quick favor and unwatch this thread you do not need to be part of this insanity :/

"If Persona characters had Smash Bros. mains"
- sees that Zelda is lined up with da other waifu Yukiko

Yeeeeees~

Kanji

 

[Rizen]

Anyone wants to play some matches on Wii U?

I will. What's your NNID? I erased a lot of names since my friends list was full.

 

[FullMoon]

I will. What's your NNID? I erased a lot of names since my friends list was full.

INFullMoon

 

[SBphiloz4]

do me a quick favor and unwatch this thread you do not need to be part of this insanity :/

Kanji

Full thing here.

Seems like Kanji's more of a scrub.

 

[Ffamran]

I just feel that instantly dismissing a character like that to be really close minded. Just because a character is considered to be mediocre/bad doesn't mean you shouldn't at least have a legit discussion about the MU against him, especially because it never hurts to have more knowledge on their gameplan and what advantages they do have against you.

Plus it's just rude.

Oh by the way:

: 76,4%

Lavani has a higher win rate with Greninja than I do =V

Welcome to the Falco, Marth, Meta Knight, Ike, Wii Fit Trainer, Kirby, Palutena, and Luigi first impressions club.

Edit: Falco does get relegated as Fox who can't combo, can't kill, and is slower. Misinformation at it's finest. Even someone in the Greninja MU thread said that. Maybe instead of spreading lies, how about pointing out what you - not directed at you, FullMoon - know even in spite of how little you do. I don't know jack about Mewtwo, but I know enough to warn people about Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Dtilt, Bair, and Fair. I can't help with how Mewtwo fights, but I can still give out basic information.

Spoiler: Incoming Falco rant

Of those 8, patches made Ike and Luigi, especially Luigi more relevant since vectoring really hurt him or something. Ike already had Blitz, San, Ryo, and Ryuga while Luigi had Boss, J. Miller, and False. Kirby already has Mike Kirby and I guess, Poyo, and Marth was affected by patches, but in minute, almost game changing as his Dancing Blade is more potent now from what Shaya and others found. Wii Fit Trainer has John Numbers, TKBreezy, and Waveguider making rounds, Palutena has Aerolink and Trevonte along with insane customs helping her, and Meta Knight has Ito, Katakiri, and Unknown proving and pushing Meta Knight's metagame.

Falco had Keitaro, has GimR and FOW who proved Falco could fight, but he still gets dismissed. All Dr. Mario took was one match with Rice and people are like, "Man, Dr. Mario's good." Zelda had Nairo and people jumped on the Zelda's viable train. Mr. Game & Watch rarely gets the he's bottom, instead he gets the he's there, he fights, so whatever, it's Mr. Game & Watch. Falco has had several different, known players take on different, known players of Diddy, Greninja, Captain Falcon, Fox, Sheik, Marth, Mega Man, Villager, Ganondorf, Olimar, Yoshi, Toon Link, Ike, Lucina, and more and he does fine. What's there left to prove?

As far as I know, Toon Link has never taken a major tournament, but people agree he's (somewhat) good and Yoshi? Aside from Yoshidora, other Yoshi players haven't been as successful, but he's considered top 10 if not upper mid. Oh, and let's not forget Bowser who was considered top 5 way back when. Does Falco have, arbitrarily, a -10 to all his MU ratios or a -1 to all his MU spread because he exists? I wouldn't be surprised if Falco miraculously ends up proven to go 50:50 with everyone and people will still think he's trash while Little Mac could end up with sporadic, polarized MUs and people would think, "Man, Little Mac is a decent mid tier."

Hey, and let's not forget that people don't like that he's a semi-clone and want Melee Falco back or that people hate Melee, Brawl, or PM Falco including SSB4 Falco because he's not Melee, Brawl, or PM Falco. The irony of complaining about clones like Lucina and Dark Pit or barely semi-clones like Wolf and Lucas. People want him to be able to chaingrab, laser spam, and other broken things on him. That should say something about people being fair fighters and asking for a balanced game. You want a balanced game, but you complain about not being able to chaingrab and wall people out like that? Hey, remember when people hated Brawl Meta Knight, but now people hate SSB4 Meta Knight because he's not Brawl Meta Knight, not broken? Hell, people already spam and button mash in games not to mention that people intentionally lag to win which wrecks a character's reputation like, oh, I don't know, Link, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Toon Link, Samus, and (Brawl) Ike's.

Seriously, WTF?

 

[Soul.]

Well with Link getting nerfed, it's obvious people will think Toon Link is better.
but from what I've heard, Link has a "good neutral". @ Rizen confirm or deny

 

[Trieste SP]

Wait, you main the low tier?

Sorry for the late reply, no most of them are mid tier to me.

 

[Lavani]

Full thing here.

Seems like Kanji's more of a scrub.

Labrys as seems weird to me

Then again I don't know much of anything about Persona, but "robot girl using massive axe" doesn't seem like she'd be playing a nimble speedster.

 

[Burgundy]

Anyone else gonna be playing Splatoon in half an hour? I'm hyped as ****.
These Drifloon emotes are adorable <3

 

[FullMoon]

I think the lag is being worse than before lol.

Edit: How to know that you're playing badly: You let your shield break =V

 

[Jaguar360]

I play a lot vs. lvl 9 cpus and my online win rates are terrible, so not sharing

Gorl....

don't mix alcohol and driving, period.



"Can" is the key word -- she can if the opponent makes a bad mistake and over-commits to an attack. If the opponent is not doing that, or like many top tier characters has very few laggy attacks, then that "can" is very difficult or unlikely. With Zelda's weight and floatiness and attacks that are super punishable, she's highly susceptible to getting KO'd early as well.

Her range isn't that great to be honest. With f-tilt and d-smash getting range nerfs and her f-smash's full range not coming out till frame 24, her range is probably slightly above average. What makes it even worse for her is that for some reason characters have some crazy disjointed range on this that shouldn't be disjointed (Peach f-air, Falcon lol), and characters (like Diddy) that should have range limitations because of their size have their limbs stretch more than they should -- like Pit's f-smash has his sword stretch and get longer on the second hit (at least it looks like it, same with his up-smash), which gives him decent range when his range should be poor because his swords/bow are short. Yet Zelda, who has magic and could logically hit further than her physical range, gets range nerfs <_<

Her damage output is good - agreed.

Good kill power - what does she really have besides moves that require hard reads or hard punishing? F-smash is pretty powerful, but because she's light other characters can kill her just as early if not earlier with their smash attacks. F-tilt, d-smash, and up-smash have "okay" KO power. Other characters can score kills much easier near the ledge at moderately high percents because of decently powerful and easy to land aerials. Generally, if the opponent is playing just as well as you are, Zelda will be dying just as early or earlier than her opponent - and KO power is supposed to be her biggest strength ("reliable and explosive attack power" / "her light moves belie devastatingly powerful magical attacks").

Her recovery and off-stage game are great - agreed.

No her MUs are pretty bad.

Her having limited approaches is a huge problem when the opponent gets the % lead and can force an approach. And her defensive options aren't nearly as good as they were in Brawl thanks to F-smash's lag increase and d-smash and up-smash nerfs, so when she gets the lead and can force an approach it can be difficult to maintain it because she can't keep people out either.

She's not mid-tier; she's bottom 10 at best, and more likely bottom 5.

I agree mostly, though on kill power, Zelda's true d-throw to u-air combo kills pretty early (98% on Mario in FD; stops being guaranteed at 143% on him, when Zelda's "weaker" kill moves are more likely to kill anyway) and Farore's Wind is a really huge bonus compared to most other characters in spite of its punishability since it can be done OoS and is pretty fast for its power. I understand the point you wanted to prove, just nitpicking.

 

[Ffamran]

In Villager's defense we don't do scheduled MUs and @ Sonsa MU extraordinaire has posted on falco AND we went to talk about Villager vs Falco on the falco boards

Huh, have we? I'm leading the MU thread there and we haven't even started focused discussion yet. We'll get to Falco soon enough and then all 3 Falco players can contribute.

I meant when someone asks or talks about their worst, personal MUs or just wants to know how to fight a certain MU, Falco gets completely ignored or dismissed as not being troublesome at all. So, "How do you fight Falco, he keeps reflecting stuff at me?" If it does get answered, it's like, "Bait his Reflector and knock his **** in. This ain't Diddy Kong."

I remember a MU spread in the Fox boards made by some dude and Falco was listed at 80:20 or 70:30 against him along with some wacky ratios for other characters. When confronted, the OP even said he doesn't fight a lot of Falco players.

Nothing against other boards, players, people, etc., but it's really annoying when that happens. One user on the Rosalina boards even pointed out how people do come in and say their character can destroy Luma, so Rosalina is not that difficult; he points out how people do generalize and boast. Or how an Ike complained how people still think they're fighting Brawl Ike. Falco can't boast about anything and we know that, so we're level headed and humble (and depressed).

 

[Fernosaur]

I play a lot vs. lvl 9 cpus and my online win rates are terrible, so not sharing

I agree mostly, though on kill power, Zelda's true d-throw to u-air combo kills pretty early (98% on Mario in FD; stops being guaranteed at 143% on him, when Zelda's "weaker" kill moves are more likely to kill anyway) and Farore's Wind is a really huge bonus compared to most other characters in spite of its punishability since it can be done OoS and is pretty fast for its power. I understand the point you wanted to prove, just nitpicking.

D-throw to u-air is nowhere near being a true combo, though. It's super easy to DI out of. And FWing OoS doesn't really work that well in higher levels of play, specially not against the top tiers who have little to no end lag on stuff.

 

[Jaguar360]

D-throw to u-air is nowhere near being a true combo, though. It's super easy to DI out of. And FWing OoS doesn't really work that well in higher levels of play, specially not against the top tiers who have little to no end lag on stuff.

You sure? Opponents I've faced haven't been able to escape from it until higher percents and training mode registers it as true. I guess training mode doesn't account for DI?

 

[Fernosaur]

You sure? Opponents I've faced haven't been able to escape from it until higher percents and training mode registers it as true. I guess training mode doesn't account for DI?

100% sure. And no, the CPUs in training mode don't have DI or momentum cancelling input. It might be impossible to escape at mid-percents (with vertical DI), but it definitely isn't at kill percents. If they **** their DI and get launched up, then it might work, but it's still possible to air-dodge out of it as far as I'm concerned. I won't say it's not one of Zelda's more reliable finishers, but it's not guaranteed is what I mean.

Also, FW elevators can be DI'd out of to survive the second hit up until around 90%. At least if the opponent is close to I'd say Ness's weight and higher. You just have to DI down and to whichever side you're launched on the second hit. If you end up dying from the horizontal blastline, then that means a regular hit from FW would have killed anyway :V, but what I'm trying to say is that even the elevator is not a fool-proof super early finisher if people know how to DI it.

In my recent matches with @ SBphiloz4 he connected like 4 or 5 elevators at 70-90% (and with Zelda having over 120% rage) and I could survive most of them only with DI, and I play Villager, who is very average in terms of weight. Sometimes the trayectory in which the first hit sends them up might **** with their DI, but in general yeah, it's not a guaranteed kill.

 

[Rizen]

Yeah this lag is terrible lol. Last game for me.

 

[Antonykun]

I meant when someone asks or talks about their worst, personal MUs or just wants to know how to fight a certain MU, Falco gets completely ignored or dismissed as not being troublesome at all. So, "How do you fight Falco, he keeps reflecting stuff at me?" If it does get answered, it's like, "Bait his Reflector and knock his **** in. This ain't Diddy Kong."

I remember a MU spread in the Fox boards made by some dude and Falco was listed at 80:20 or 70:30 against him along with some wacky ratios for other characters. When confronted, the OP even said he doesn't fight a lot of Falco players.

Nothing against other boards, players, people, etc., but it's really annoying when that happens. One user on the Rosalina boards even pointed out how people do come in and say their character can destroy Luma, so Rosalina is not that difficult; he points out how people do generalize and boast. Or how an Ike complained how people still think they're fighting Brawl Ike. Falco can't boast about anything and we know that, so we're level headed and humble (and depressed).

Well time to speak for myself. I am perfectly fine with Falco because one of my friends plays falco so I really know how to play as him. When someone ask "How do you fight Falco, he keeps reflecting stuff at me?" the guy giving the answer expects whats giving him the most trouble with falco is the reflector so they tell the person how to beat it

 

[McKnightlíght]

Guys I'm really bummed out that I can't get premium because of my paypal thing

Who wants to buy it for me? I'll be sure to pm you my super private card number and security number. Or I could just tag you in a post.

What could go wrong?

 

[Trieste SP]

I meant when someone asks or talks about their worst, personal MUs or just wants to know how to fight a certain MU, Falco gets completely ignored or dismissed as not being troublesome at all. So, "How do you fight Falco, he keeps reflecting stuff at me?" If it does get answered, it's like, "Bait his Reflector and knock his **** in. This ain't Diddy Kong."

I remember a MU spread in the Fox boards made by some dude and Falco was listed at 80:20 or 70:30 against him along with some wacky ratios for other characters. When confronted, the OP even said he doesn't fight a lot of Falco players.

Nothing against other boards, players, people, etc., but it's really annoying when that happens. One user on the Rosalina boards even pointed out how people do come in and say their character can destroy Luma, so Rosalina is not that difficult; he points out how people do generalize and boast. Or how an Ike complained how people still think they're fighting Brawl Ike. Falco can't boast about anything and we know that, so we're level headed and humble (and depressed).

I'm trying to work up my Falco, but yeah It's kinda irritating when people say these kinds of things.

 

[Fernosaur]

Guys I'm really bummed out that I can't get premium because of my paypal thing

Who wants to buy it for me? I'll be sure to pm you my super private card number and security number. Or I could just tag you in a post.

What could go wrong?

What paypal thing? I could try paying it for you.

 

[Rizen]

@ FullMoon GGs. Those were fun . I wish we had a better connection

 

[FullMoon]

Being able to do 26 damage in just two hits is way too good =V

Also I suffered 2 shield breaks in just one session wtf is this

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

oh hey character win rates ok

THE MAINS:
: 77.94%
: 77.38%

THE FRAUDULENT EX-MAINS:
: 73.19%
: 71.56%
: 62.97%

lolpoorPaletuna

 

[Rizen]

Well with Link getting nerfed, it's obvious people will think Toon Link is better.
but from what I've heard, Link has a "good neutral". @ Rizen confirm or deny

I would say a 'good' neutral. His neutral is okay with projectiles/zoning but once the opponent gets it Link is combo meat. Link has a good advantaged game, decent neutral and one of the worse disadvantaged games. He's decent until the time comes to kill then he has to go for stupid hard reads off projectile frame traps. He doesn't have hardly any guaranteed followups except for locks and those are tricky to setup.

Sadly TL is better now. Losing the jab 1 cancel really hurt Link.

 

[Jaguar360]

100% sure. And no, the CPUs in training mode don't have DI or momentum cancelling input. It might be impossible to escape at mid-percents (with vertical DI), but it definitely isn't at kill percents. If they **** their DI and get launched up, then it might work, but it's still possible to air-dodge out of it as far as I'm concerned. I won't say it's not one of Zelda's more reliable finishers, but it's not guaranteed is what I mean.

Also, FW elevators can be DI'd out of to survive the second hit up until around 90%. At least if the opponent is close to I'd say Ness's weight and higher. You just have to DI down and to whichever side you're launched on the second hit. If you end up dying from the horizontal blastline, then that means a regular hit from FW would have killed anyway :V, but what I'm trying to say is that even the elevator is not a fool-proof super early finisher if people know how to DI it.

In my recent matches with @ SBphiloz4 he connected like 4 or 5 elevators at 70-90% (and with Zelda having over 120% rage) and I could survive most of them only with DI, and I play Villager, who is very average in terms of weight. Sometimes the trayectory in which the first hit sends them up might **** with their DI, but in general yeah, it's not a guaranteed kill.

Well damn. Gotta stop embarassing myself like this -_-

 

[Ffamran]

Well time to speak for myself. I am perfectly fine with Falco because one of my friends plays falco so I really know how to play as him. When someone ask "How do you fight Falco, he keeps reflecting stuff at me?" the guy giving the answer expects whats giving him the most trouble with falco is the reflector so they tell the person how to beat it

That's okay, but going towards trashing on characters isn't. It's like, people ask on how to deal with Little Mac's Ftilt and they get answer, but also the whole Little Mac sucks, just throw him off the stage and you win.

Being able to do 26 damage in just two hits is way too good =V

Also I suffered 2 shield breaks in just one session wtf is this

Can't Ganondorf do 26% with one hit? I think his Up Smash does that.

 

[McKnightlíght]

What paypal thing? I could try paying it for you.

I can't get into PayPal because I don't remember my password and apparently I don't remember what my first pet was and/or who my childhood friend was xD

But I can't make a new account because of the same card number or something dumb.

tl:dr duuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmbbb