Zelda Franchise Discussion

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, I think every others villains have no priority, having Captain Falcon Ganondorf (there's no doubt he will return) but it's probably a biased opinion

About Twilight Princess as a whole, it's seems to be not so outdated. Link and Zelda retained their TP look, the TP aesthetic was used for the WiiU demo (but we know how the spaceworld 2000 Zelda demo ended ), and the Twilight Princess castle appeared in the first trailer for SSB4.
It totally doesn't mean we will have another TP character, by the way.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Well, I think every others villains have no priority, having Captain Falcon Ganondorf (there's no doubt he will return) but it's probably a biased opinion

About Twilight Princess as a whole, it's seems to be not so outdated. Link and Zelda retained their TP look, the TP aesthetic was used for the WiiU demo (but we know how the spaceworld 2000 Zelda demo ended ), and the Twilight Princess castle appeared in the first trailer for SSB4.
It totally doesn't mean we will have another TP character, by the way.

Well, it's not incredibly irrelevant, but it still is a little irrelevant.
And I just feel like with the huge variety of unique Zelda villains, that Sakurai should one of them instead of a sidekick.
We will eventually need a sidekick, but I don't think this is the right time.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I'll think I'll use the Pizza argument again

Every Zelda newcommer is a good addition to me. Even Especially Tingle.

 

[CardiganBoy]

Include Navi as a playable character, so I can beat the **** out of that annoying fairy.

I would prefer to punch Fi, it's genderless after all.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Like I said earlier, I don't want Ghirahim, but I wouldn't be mad to see him.

Oh who am I kidding? I'd probably rage for days.

 

[PixelPasta]

Honestly I want to see Shiek replaced with Impa (independent of Zelda) and one additional character, preferably Tingle or even Toon Zelda.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Honestly I want to see Shiek replaced with Impa (independent of Zelda) and one additional character, preferably Tingle or even Toon Zelda.

That's exactly what I don't want to see. People know Shiek as part of Zelda's moveset and she's iconic and it's cool to transform in the middle of the match.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Plus, this time, Sheik is relevant again with OoT 3D.

Also, removing Sheik would be like removing Falco. It's a face of Smash Bros now. And for your information, I hate Falco

 

[dimensionsword64]

Plus, this time, Sheik is relevant again with OoT 3D.

Also, removing Sheik would be like removing Falco. It's a face of Smash Bros now. And for your information, I hate Falco

I completely agree.

 

[PixelPasta]

That's exactly what I don't want to see. People know Shiek as part of Zelda's moveset and she's iconic and it's cool to transform in the middle of the match.

Impa is much more important to the Zelda series than Sheik. Impa would probably play extremely similar to Sheik, so I don't get why Sheik fans should have a problem with that.... the only argument I tend to hear is "but it's smash a tradition" - which isn't a valid point, if you ask me. Anything is possible; Mewtwo was cut from Melee despite people saying things along the lines of 'he's the face of Smash Bros now'.
Also, a lot of people have wanted Zelda and Sheik to be separated. By implementing my idea, that could be accomplished, with Sheik simply re-purposed as Impa.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Impa is much more important to the Zelda series than Sheik. Impa would probably play extremely similar to Sheik, so I don't get why Sheik fans should have a problem with that.... the only argument I tend to hear is "but it's smash a tradition" - which isn't a valid point, if you ask me. Anything is possible; Mewtwo was cut from Melee despite people saying things along the lines of 'he's the face of Smash Bros now'.
Also, a lot of people have wanted Zelda and Sheik to be separated. By implementing my idea, that could be accomplished, with Sheik simply re-purposed as Impa.

But it is a Smash tradition. You want to take out a unique gimmick that almost everyone knows and likes?

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I personally would be extremely dissapointed if Zelda can't transform anymore.
She brought that feature in the Smash universe, and it was still unique in brawl (no stamina system like the pokemon trainer, ne final smash needed like Samus).

To me, asking to separate Zelda & Sheik is like asking to separate Popo & Nana.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I personally would be extremely dissapointed if Zelda can't transform anymore.
She brought that feature in the Smash universe, and it was still unique in brawl (no stamina system like the pokemon trainer, ne final smash needed like Samus).

To me, asking to separate Zelda & Sheik is like asking to separate Popo & Nana.

This.

 

[PixelPasta]

But it is a Smash tradition. You want to take out a unique gimmick that almost everyone knows and likes?

Firstly, I'd like to point out that a transformation gimmick is not unique to Zelda, as both Samus and Pokemon trainer have similar mechanics.
Secondly, you simply cannot say that 'almost everybody' likes this gimmick. You are entitled to your opinion, and there is merit in what you say... however, you can not make statements such as 'nearly everyone' or 'most people' like something, because you do not know this for a fact. You may like it, but that does not account for everybody else.

That being said, I don't feel as if tradition is enough to warrant a character's return. It's already been proven that characters can be removed from game to game, even ones that nobody would consider a contender for cutting, such as Mewtwo.
Just because something has been done in the past, doesn't mean it is immune to potential change. The fact that Sheik was in both Melee and Brawl does not change the fact that she is a one-time character from a single Zelda game (and it's remake) nor does it make Impa any less likely as a candidate for her replacement, especially considering that Impa has her own repertoire of eight games (give or take).

It's unfortunate that, despite Impa's importance to the Zelda series, she has taken a back seat to Sheik in terms of Smash Bros popularity. Believe me, I get the whole 'tradition' argument, but I simply do not believe that it is a good basis for judging potential character choices.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Firstly, I'd like to point out that a transformation gimmick is not unique to Zelda, as both Samus and Pokemon trainer have similar mechanics.
Secondly, you simply cannot say that 'almost everybody' likes this gimmick. You are entitled to your opinion, and there is merit in what you say... however, you can not make statements such as 'nearly everyone' or 'most people' like something, because you do not know this for a fact. You may like it, but that does not account for everybody else.

That being said, I don't feel as if tradition is enough to warrant a character's return. It's already been proven that characters can be removed from game to game, even ones that nobody would consider a contender for cutting, such as Mewtwo.
Just because something has been done in the past, doesn't mean it is immune to potential change. The fact that Sheik was in both Melee and Brawl does not change the fact that she is a one-time character from a single Zelda game (and it's remake) nor does it make Impa any less likely as a candidate for her replacement, especially considering that Impa has her own repertoire of eight games (give or take).

It's unfortunate that, despite Impa's importance to the Zelda series, she has taken a back seat to Sheik in terms of Smash Bros popularity. Believe me, I get the whole 'tradition' argument, but I simply do not believe that it is a good basis for judging potential character choices.

Read Erotic's post.

 

[Superyoshiom]

I've been giving it some thought, and the two Zelda characters I'd like to see are Toon Zelda and Vaati.

 

[PixelPasta]

I personally would be extremely dissapointed if Zelda can't transform anymore.
She brought that feature in the Smash universe, and it was still unique in brawl (no stamina system like the pokemon trainer, ne final smash needed like Samus).

To me, asking to separate Zelda & Sheik is like asking to separate Popo & Nana.

Referring to your first point: Touche. Zelda did bring something different than other transforming characters, and removing it would be an unfortunate loss in the uniqueness department, but like I've said - it's happened before.
I think my point still stands.

But referring to your second point, I do not believe that what I am suggesting is anything like asking to separate the climbers:
Neither Nana nor Popo could bring anything unique independent of each other. Having separate slots for both Nana and Popo would be ludicrous, as they are essentially the exact same character.
Having Impa replace Sheik as her own separate character is simply taking two unique movesets that could theoretically work independent of each other, and giving each their own slot. The only quirk is that one of the characters would then be re-purposed as another.

Honestly, your point there was unfortunately a weak one. I'm not suggesting anything nearly as foolish as having two identical characters as separate slots on the roster, to be frank. Quite the opposite, really.
I still hear what you are saying, and you've brought up many good points, but this specific argument is not helping your case.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Referring to your first point: Touche. Zelda did bring something different than other transforming characters, and it would be an unfortunate loss in the uniqueness department, but like I said it's happened before.
I think my point still stands.

But referring to your second point, I do not believe that what I am suggesting is anything like asking to separate the climbers:
Neither Nana nor Popo could bring anything unique independent of each other. Having separate slots for both Nana and Popo would be ludicrous, as they are essentially the exact same character.
Having Impa replace Sheik as her own separate character is simply taking two unique movesets that could theoretically work independent of each other, and giving each their own slot. The only quirk is that one of the characters would then be re-purposed as another.

Honestly, your point there was unfortunately a weak one. I'm not suggesting anything nearly as foolish as having two identical characters as separate slots on the roster, to be frank. Quite the opposite, really.
I still hear what you are saying, and you've brought up many good points, but this specific argument is not helping your case.

But Zelda and Shiek are the same person. You can't pretend they're separate people. You can pretend Nana and Popo are different people, because they are.

 

[PixelPasta]

But Zelda and Shiek are the same person. You can't pretend they're separate people. You can pretend Nana and Popo are different people, because they are.

Well that is precisely why I am suggesting that Sheik should be remade into Impa! Zelda and Impa are not the same person, so it still works.
If I were saying that Zelda and Sheik should each have their own slot, and no other changes beyond that, then sure - I'd probably agree with you. But that's not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is, incorporating Sheik's moveset into Impa would allow Sheik to essentially 'live on' in the form of a unique, individual character, who - in my opinion - was more deserving of a slot than Sheik in the first place. But again, that's just me.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Well that is precisely why I am suggesting that Sheik should be remade into Impa! Zelda and Impa are not the same person, so it still works.
If I were saying that Zelda and Sheik should each have their own slot, and no other changes beyond that, then sure - I'd probably agree with you. But that's not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is, incorporating Sheik's moveset into Impa would allow Sheik to essentially 'live on' in the form of a unique, individual character, who - in my opinion - was more deserving of a slot than Sheik in the first place. But again, that's just me.

That'd be like giving Mario's moveset to a Toad. That's not Mario; that's just Toad with Mario's moveset.

 

[PixelPasta]

That'd be like giving Mario's moveset to a Toad. That's not Mario; that's just Toad with Mario's moveset.

I don't know... I feel as if Sheik's moveset would more easily translate to Impa than Mario's would to Toad... I guess i kind of hear what you are saying, but then again, Mario isn't in the same boat as Sheik: he is an established, iconic character with immense importance to Nintendo's history. There'd be no reason to have him 'live on' in another character for two reasons - one, he is a singular character unlike Zelda/Sheik, so there isn't a purpose in replacing him with another similar character (no separation is needed); and two, he is important, iconic, and unique, so my entire point about revamping Sheik into a more important character does not apply.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I don't know... I feel as if Sheik's moveset would more easily translate to Impa than Mario's would to Toad... I guess i kind of hear what you are saying, but then again, Mario isn't in the same boat as Sheik: he is an established, iconic character with immense importance to Nintendo's history. There'd be no reason to have him 'live on' in another character for two reasons - one, he is a singular character unlike Zelda/Sheik, so there isn't a purpose in replacing him with another similar character (no separation is needed); and two, he is important, iconic, and unique, so my entire point about revamping Sheik into a more important character does not apply.

Shiek is important, iconic, and unique too.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I just want to see the ****ing Wind Mage in another game. Just do it for your fans, Sakurai.

 

[PixelPasta]

Shiek is important, iconic, and unique too.

Hmmm... care to elaborate? I'm interested as to why you feel this way

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Referring to your first point: Touche. Zelda did bring something different than other transforming characters, and removing it would be an unfortunate loss in the uniqueness department, but like I've said - it's happened before.
I think my point still stands.

But referring to your second point, I do not believe that what I am suggesting is anything like asking to separate the climbers:
Neither Nana nor Popo could bring anything unique independent of each other. Having separate slots for both Nana and Popo would be ludicrous, as they are essentially the exact same character.
Having Impa replace Sheik as her own separate character is simply taking two unique movesets that could theoretically work independent of each other, and giving each their own slot. The only quirk is that one of the characters would then be re-purposed as another.

Honestly, your point there was unfortunately a weak one. I'm not suggesting anything nearly as foolish as having two identical characters as separate slots on the roster, to be frank. Quite the opposite, really.
I still hear what you are saying, and you've brought up many good points, but this specific argument is not helping your case.

Well, if I have to play on words, Zelda is still the only character that transform (the Pokemon trainer send differents pokémons, Samus change clothes).

My second point stems from the first one: the Zelda/Sheik duo is as unique as the Ice Climbers. It's obviously stupid to separate Popo and Nana, but removing their uniqueness is as foolish as removing the Hyrulean Princess' uniqueness (although her playstyle is already unique alone). So why it would be ok to remove one's uniqueness but not the other?

Hmmm... care to elaborate? I'm interested as to why you feel this way

Well, first of all, Sheik comes from one of the most known and loved Zelda game: Ocarina of Time. Important enough to have a remake (and not a port like ALTTP on the GBA). This game is also really important to the timeline, as it's where the timeline split in 3. It's also the game that created the base of the 3D Zelda gameplay.

To me, OoT is really a pillar of the Zelda Franchise.

Now, back to Sheik. In OoT, she's really a memorable character, as mysterious as she is. You don't know why she help you, but you definetely see her as a friend. Discovering it's the Princess in disguise is really surprising.
About cameos, games like scribblenauts or Tekken Tag Tournament features Sheik, alongside Zelda, Link and Ganondorf.

Also, Sheik managed to return in Brawl, something people didn't expected because she wasn't in Twilight Princess. Yet, she came back. If Sakurai can take a concept art to bring back an "irrelevant" character for Brawl, why wouldn't he take the character back now that she is relevant again with OoT3D representation in SSB4?



To speak a bit about Impa, she seems to be wanted by people, not to say acknowledged, since Skyward Sword. Until this game, I guess only a few people wanted the fat one, or the old one. I do like her Skyward Sword style, but what can she bring as a separated character, compared to Zelda and her ability to transform?

Please don't say a new down-B

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like what is going on in this thread.

#TeamImpa

Phantom is new Down B btw.

 

[UltimateWario]

Phantom is new Down B btw.

 

[FalKoopa]

Phantom is new Down B btw.

#TeamSheik

I'm not in the mood for debate, so I'll prefer to watch. I'll let other users handle it. Just don't get too out of hand.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why wouldn't Phantom be the new Down B?

 

[UltimateWario]

Why would it? Sheik is the whole reason Zelda got into Melee; it made her unique. Why destroy that part of her character to bring in a new character with the same moveset? Seems silly to me.

Of all the veterans to be ditched from SSB4, I definitely don't see Sheik as one of them. But whatever. I have no attachment to the character and honestly don't care what happens as long as Sheik2 doesn't take up a Newcomer slot.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Phantom is new Assist Trophy btw.

Fixed for ya

Zelda's new down B will be Alfonzo instead.



No, seriously, when we see the rage with Mewtwo absence from SSBB, a human being cannot understand how much rage the lack of Sheik would represent, as she was one of the competitive Melee's character.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I still am just hoping that Zelda and Sheik are just separated... I don't care how much sense it does or does not make from a character standpoint, I think it would work out for the best from a gameplay standpoint. (And Impa added in as a separate character as well, of course)

Also... I think it's entirely inaccurate to say that Zelda wouldn't have gotten into Smash if Sheik didn't exist, but I suppose it's not really something that can be proven either way.

To be fair, though, even if Phantom is a new move of Zelda's, it doesn't actually necessarily mean that it's her down+B and Sheik has been detached. We can hope though, eh Diddy?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik MORE backlash than Mewtwo!???

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

For the SSB fan, yes, especially the competitive player (I'm not one, by the way).

Try to imagine the backlash with Falco absence. It would be the same. Or Marth (but he is confirmed)

 

[LaniusShrike]

You know what would actually be the coolest thing to do? Combine Sheik and Mewtwo into ONE CHARACTER, a badass psychic/shadow element pokeninja. Yessss.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Also, I remember all the rage from SoulCalibur 5 roster.

Good old rage... Even for bottom tier characters like Rock. Zasalamel and Talim absence, Sophitia and Taki replacement, Kilik becoming a random character... Lots of rage.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Yeah, because we need to extend this argument into more topics.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nightmare and Seigfried are separate characters however. Thought that was awesome. SC5's Kilik is weird yeah. But I like the tiger boy with the staff well enough.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Also, I remember all the rage from SoulCalibur 5 roster.

Good old rage... Even for bottom tier characters like Rock. Zasalamel and Talim absence, Sophitia and Taki replacement, Kilik becoming a random character... Lots of rage.

Wellllllllllll, let's be honest, there is a difference between tweaking/removing one character and the wholesale slaughter of half your series's cast and replacing them with younger, blander doppelgangers. I honestly have no idea what happened with the development of SCV... what an unholy mess. There was a whole heck of a lot more wrong with the game than just the roster, too.

I mean, I still bought it, but that's because I like the character creator.

Yeah, because we need to extend this argument into more topics.

I mean... if there's a place to discuss it, this is the place. Sure, there's not actually anything new to say about the subject, but... that's kind of true for every Smash topic.

 

[ToothiestAura]

I mean... if there's a place to discuss it, this is the place. Sure, there's not actually anything new to say about the subject, but... that's kind of true for every Smash topic.

There's just about 4 (maybe more topics) in the Zelda section in which the argument took place/is probably still happening.