Zelda Franchise Discussion

[Diddy Kong]

Well yeah, people would still scream clone at Impa anyway, even though she and Sheik would be as different as Mewtwo and Lucario are if done right. But still, both are not needed as it would kill the point of the other being there.

Skyward Sword had Impa because Zelda couldn't defend herself otherwise. Its nowhere implied Impa thought her to be Sheik, as that's OoT only, much like Sheik herself.

 

[bubbaking]

I detect a severe misunderstanding...

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Well yeah, people would still scream clone at Impa anyway, even though she and Sheik would be as different as Mewtwo and Lucario are if done right. But still, both are not needed as it would kill the point of the other being there.

Skyward Sword had Impa because Zelda couldn't defend herself otherwise. Its nowhere implied Impa thought her to be Sheik, as that's OoT only, much like Sheik herself.

So in other words you are saying Zelda will be severely weak in 4 since she will be based off of the Skyward Sword version now?

 

[Big-Cat]

Mind you, I was only joking with Tekken's clones.

If you ask me, Sheik is a prime example of how overly attached the Smash fan base is with its characters.

 

[Arcadenik]

Mind you, I was only joking with Tekken's clones.

If you ask me, Sheik is a prime example of how overly attached the Smash fan base is with its characters.

LOL This applies to ALL characters who ever become playable in at least one Smash game. I will bet you that if Impa, Tingle or even Duck Hunt Dog somehow made it into the roster, they will be met with nerdrage and then they will eventually become beloved and should not be cut from the sequel.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So in other words you are saying Zelda will be severely weak in 4 since she will be based off of the Skyward Sword version now?

Well, skyward sword ITSELF is weak...so

 

[Big-Cat]

LOL This applies to ALL characters who ever become playable in at least one Smash game. I will bet you that if Impa, Tingle or even Duck Hunt Dog somehow made it into the roster, they will be met with nerdrage and then they will eventually become beloved and should not be cut from the sequel.

Case in point, R.O.B.

 

[Arcadenik]

Case in point, R.O.B.

Precisely.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Case in point, R.O.B.

R.O.B. was on my melee wishlist actually.

Along with Prof. Hector controlling him, pkmn trainer style

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dr.Mario to, and Roy. But Sheik is always nr1 prime example.

Also to answer the question if Zelda should be weak in Smash 4 cause of Skyward Sword: no, but Zelda was NEVER a good character in Smash anyway. And if Sheik where to be removed, she'd at least have a Down B attack, which could make or break her.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Dr.Mario to, and Roy. But Sheik is always nr1 prime example.

Also to answer the question if Zelda should be weak in Smash 4 cause of Skyward Sword: no, but Zelda was NEVER a good character in Smash anyway. And if Sheik where to be removed, she'd at least have a Down B attack, which could make or break her.

Sorry, I was just assuming since you said she NEEDED Impa.

However Skyward Sword Zelda would be able to handle herself. I just wonder what her moveset would be like for Smash 4.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Zelda's moves would stay the same, disregarding any possible buffs or nerfs.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Zelda's moves would stay the same, disregarding any possible buffs or nerfs.

I am assuming a few would be changed up, namely her Final Smash.

Maybe the harp?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, I like the Light Arrows on Zelda. It's very iconic to the Zelda series, and she has been using them in games as The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess against Ganon. So in my opinion, it can stay. Though something with the Harp could also be possible. Or possibly something that has to do with her being the Goddess Hylia?

Story-wise though, yes, Zelda definitely needed Impa.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, skyward sword ITSELF is weak...so

I thought SS was a pretty good game. Definitely not "weak" at all. The only game I'd put in that category is Zelda II.

 

[Spire]

I think Smash needs to designate its own aesthetic rather than borrowing from the newest incarnations of its derivative series, i.e. no Skyward Sword influence. Every character chosen for SSB4's roster should look slightly different than they currently do in their own series, with a skewed visual style towards the general deformity pronounced in most Nintendo series. By that, I mean that there should be no realistic human characters, even if they appear as such in their derivative series. Everything should be slightly distorted to fit the proportions of the Smash mechanics, just as the aesthetic of Skyward Sword was crafted to support the Wii Motion plus mechanics (Eiji Aonuma said that upon switching from post-TP graphics to the colorful, washed impressionistic style that SS ended up with, so too did enemies change from being realistically proportioned to having larger heads [Bokoblins], rounder features [Octoroks], and directional weak spots [Deku Babas]). I think the same approach should be taken with Smash.

Characters should be redesigned to reflect their incarnations from across their series' histories. With that being said, the chosen Zelda characters should represent their incarnations from the original LoZ to SS (and beyond). Considering the timeline's collective structure, across 16 games there are 9 Links spanning the Legend of Zelda series:

1. LoZ/AoL (Original)
2. ALttP/OoX/LA (Classic)
3. OoT/MM (Adult/Young)
4. WW/PH (Toon)
5. ST (Toon II)
6. TMC/FS (Toon III)
7. FSA (Toon IV)
8. TP (Adult II)
9. SS (Adult III)

Link should be designed to reflect the Classic/Adult (I, II, III) Links.
Young Link should reflect the Original/Young/Toon (I, II, III, IV) Links.
Zelda appears differently in every game for the most part, so she should take from her various incarnations.
Ganondorf should borrow from his OoT/WW/TP and unused OoX incarnations.
* Impa should draw strictly from OoT/SS for obvious reasons... and on that note, I fully support her replacing Sheik. Round out Zelda's moveset, and evolve Sheik's into Impa's.

For dynamic Nintendo characters like the Legend of Zelda folk, I think Smash should reinvent their appearances to fit its aesthetic, allowing the characters to change with this series as well, just as they change from title to title within their own series. The same can be said for most other characters, save the Mario and Pokémon gangs who've retained consistent appearances for more than a decade now.

Conclusively, I believe Smash needs to skew its aesthetic to slight disproportions akin, but not to the extent of the Mario characters.

 

[Ember Reaper]

I still don't see why Impa vs. Sheik is the big issue. Yes she was important in Skyward Sword among other games, but people won't be happy if Sheik leaves. He is trying to make a game that pleases the majority of people. Most people will question where she went similar to Mewtwo and Roy. Cutting her would cause more backlash.
Now I understand the fanbase for Impa, but there's a little easy fix. It was done in Brawl a little bit. If they expanded on that idea it would solve everyone's problems. Costumes. Alternate costumes. So many people have said this. have the main costume as Zelda and a Skyward Sword styled Sheik/Impa, doesn't matter to me! Then have another costume with the same Zelda and whoever isn't the primary. Even change the name if possible that's likely only a little bit of coding, and they did it with Sheik and Zelda and Brawl, it would be fairly easy to do that for Impa too. Same moveset, same style. Replacing shouldn't even be an idea. More people know Sheik anyway, Impa would be like a little surprise costume like Wario's overalls in Brawl.

I feel like it should be discusses whether Zelda will get a character or not. From what I can see it's looking like, if any newcomer, it would be Ghirahim. But I'm starting to doubt that a newcomer from Zelda will appear at all.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I thought SS was a pretty good game. Definitely not "weak" at all. The only game I'd put in that category is Zelda II.

I completely disagree with Zelda 2 being a weak game, specifically because it's one of the hard games to beat on the NES

 

[Spire]

Impa is different from Ghirahim. She is the fourth most important character in the franchise and by replacing Sheik, she would be a new Zelda representative at the cost of one. I could see Sakurai mainly rejecting her in favor of having a transforming Zelda (or if he just favors Sheik), though I think that mechanic could apply to other characters.

Having Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Impa, and Young Link would best represent the series, though I understand fully why Sheik may stay. Sheik better represents the history of the Legend of Zelda series as its been represented in Smash, but as far as the LoZ series itself? One game. If Sakurai wants to better represent the series historically, Impa has got to be added.

 

[bubbaking]

I completely disagree with Zelda 2 being a weak game, specifically because it's one of the hard games to beat on the NES

Ohhh, if we're talking about difficulty, then I agree with you. SS was one of the easier LoZ games. That game was ridiculously easy. It practically spoonfed the player everything. There were like, 5 different ways to get hints in that game. XD

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The problem I have with Impa being in the game, is that she changes appearance from game to game more drastically than anyone in the series, and couldn't possible have a set moveset that could continue from smash generation to generation.

Sheik is already associated with Zelda in other forms of media than Zelda, including Smash and Scribblenaughts. Just keep Sheik a part of Zelda

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Impa is different from Ghirahim. She is the fourth most important character in the franchise and by replacing Sheik, she would be a new Zelda representative at the cost of one. I could see Sakurai mainly rejecting her in favor of having a transforming Zelda (or if he just favors Sheik), though I think that mechanic could apply to other characters.

Having Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Impa, and Young Link would best represent the series, though I understand fully why Sheik may stay. Sheik better represents the history of the Legend of Zelda series as its been represented in Smash, but as far as the LoZ series itself? One game. If Sakurai wants to better represent the series historically, Impa has got to be added.

Historically? Yes

But Skyward Sword is basically going to be a major focus on the roster this game, like Twilight Princess, was in Brawl and going by this it is left out of a villain representing it. Actually the Zelda roster's hero and villain ratio is already out of balance. Adding another hero for the 5th spot would just make it more so. I mean, it wouldn't be even with Ghirahim but it would at least help and give Skyward Sword specifically a rep to go along with those versions of Link and Zelda.

Toon Link is Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks while Ganondorf is Ocarina of Time 3D.

Impa should be their but as Skyward Sword Zelda's Sheik. Alt Twilight Princess costumes can keep Sheik there though. Impa and Sheik can practically work under one move-set.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Impa is different from Ghirahim. She is the fourth most important character in the franchise and by replacing Sheik, she would be a new Zelda representative at the cost of one. I could see Sakurai mainly rejecting her in favor of having a transforming Zelda (or if he just favors Sheik), though I think that mechanic could apply to other characters.

Having Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Impa, and Young Link would best represent the series, though I understand fully why Sheik may stay. Sheik better represents the history of the Legend of Zelda series as its been represented in Smash, but as far as the LoZ series itself? One game. If Sakurai wants to better represent the series historically, Impa has got to be added.

You could take representing it historically 2 ways.
1.
the older games, in which yes Impa was more important.

or 2.
the chronology of the games, in which Impa was first but Sheik is technically in the past too.

regardless of those wanton points I just made.

To represent the series the only ones necessary are Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. They are the big three. As a fourth Toon Link has been important in many games so he is added.
And to say "has got to be added." That's just not true in any sense. (Now I have not played the top down games in the decline timeline much, so correct me if I'm wrong) But from what I can tell Impa isn't all that important in the earlier games. She is recognizable and is a helper to Link and adds to each story. She doesn't really appear that much until Ocarina of Time where she is a warrior and assist Link... geez it's been awhile... twice? Granted they are major, but eventually it is Sheik who appears before every Temple, including Temple of Time that's seven appearances that push Link forward. Now, Impa is major in Skyward Sword. Without her Zelda wouldn't be safe. Ever. The only time she actively assists Link is when she is the Old Woman, and that happens a few times. However, that could be considered similar to Sheik. So in that respect I would call them about equal, that they are major helpers for Link, when the number of games Impa has been factored into whatever equation is being used.

Now fourth most important character is a stretch. There is no clear cut fourth most important character. We got the big three Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. But fourth... there are recurring characters... so let's look at those.
Tingle, Vaati and Impa.

Tingle - i dont think I need to explain him, but he can serves as the helper roll and got his own games, which no one in this series other than Link can say

Vaati - main villain of 2 games and a major villan in another. Even ganondorf tried to revive this guy.

Impa - helper in a chunk of games, with a major roll in Skyward Sword

From this I would say Vaati as a villain or Tingle as the helper/protagonist of his own games are the two possible runners for fourth most important character in the zelda series.

The problem I have with Impa being in the game, is that she changes appearance from game to game more drastically than anyone in the series, and couldn't possible have a set moveset that could continue from smash generation to generation.

Sheik is already associated with Zelda in other forms of media than Zelda, including Smash and Scribblenaughts. Just keep Sheik a part of Zelda

This too. I agree with this.

 

[bubbaking]

Who cares about a "set moveset" that Impa could have from her previous games? As far as I know, no Starfox char has ever fought on the ground, aside from in Adventures and Assault, and yet, a new Starfox char was added to each incarnation of Smash, complete with nonexistent (canonically) moveset. As long as Impa has something that makes sense, it should be fine. In fact, she actually has material to use. It doesn't matter if she mixes techniques from her OoT and SS incarnations, because it's understood that each Impa is a reincarnation/descendent, just like Zelda and Link. Therefore, ALL of Sheik's moves would make sense, and she could also have that 'Rasengan-like' move from SS as well as that large force field. Mario and a bunch of other chars mix and match moves from different games and, as I already showed, some chars have movesets completely INVENTED for them. Impa's moveset shouldn't be a problem, no matter how contrived it is.

 

[Deleted member]

B-b-but SS Impa is too scrawny for cattle tossing. ;_; We need Fat Impa for that....

So Fat Impa with Rasengan-like move and forcefield so she can toss cows too.

Hefty women shouldn't be left out.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Who cares about a "set moveset" that Impa could have from her previous games? As far as I know, no Starfox char has ever fought on the ground, aside from in Adventures and Assault, and yet, a new Starfox char was added to each incarnation of Smash, complete with nonexistent (canonically) moveset. As long as Impa has something that makes sense, it should be fine. In fact, she actually has material to use. It doesn't matter if she mixes techniques from her OoT and SS incarnations, because it's understood that each Impa is a reincarnation/descendent, just like Zelda and Link. Therefore, ALL of Sheik's moves would make sense, and she could also have that 'Rasengan-like' move from SS as well as that large force field. Mario and a bunch of other chars mix and match moves from different games and, as I already showed, some chars have movesets completely INVENTED for them. Impa's moveset shouldn't be a problem, no matter how contrived it is.

I don't think we should view smash as a game for game type of thing, but as a connected series of games. You wouldn't want to see Ryu in one game suddenly with a different moveset. But that's how Impa would turn out. Either that, or just be a one shot character JUST for this game.

There is no reason I see why they should rep individual Zelda games, but rather the sereis as a whole. They don't need to automatically conform to the standards of the last Zelda game, especially when the Zelda game will make Smash outdated. Adding Impa or Ghirahim is the easiest way to make Smash outdated.

Star Fox having a moveset has nothing to do with what I was talking about and don't see how that's relevant in the slightest

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, we need a woman with some meat on her in Smash. Everyone's so anorexic these days. People could really learn a thing or two from the Koopa and Popstar Kings.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, we need a woman with some meat on her in Smash. Everyone's so anorexic these days. People could really learn a thing or two from the Koopa and Popstar Kings.

Now you're getting it.
Fat Impa or bust.
(Even though Fat Impa HAS bust)

 

[bubbaking]

I don't think we should view smash as a game for game type of thing, but as a connected series of games. You wouldn't want to see Ryu in one game suddenly with a different moveset. But that's how Impa would turn out. Either that, or just be a one shot character JUST for this game.

There is no reason I see why they should rep individual Zelda games, but rather the sereis as a whole. They don't need to automatically conform to the standards of the last Zelda game, especially when the Zelda game will make Smash outdated. Adding Impa or Ghirahim is the easiest way to make Smash outdated.

Roy and Ike. They put Marth and Roy in to represent separate games in the FE series. Then they cut out Roy and put in Ike to represent another totally separate FE game, just like Nintendo would be doing with Sheik and Impa. They were also quite outdated. Impa wouldn't be outdated because it's understood that she's a repeated entity who continually shows up in Zelda games. She'd be as outdated as putting DDD or...........MK into Brawl. And speaking of outdated, what about ROB?

Star Fox having a moveset has nothing to do with what I was talking about and don't see how that's relevant in the slightest

It has everything to do with what you were talking about. You said, "The problem I have with Impa being in the game, is that she changes appearance from game to game more drastically than anyone in the series, and couldn't possible have a set moveset that could continue from smash generation to generation." I'm saying that "set movesets" don't matter. Sakurai completely contrived some movesets for chars such as the spacees, ROB, heck even Falcon.

Zelda and Link ALSO change greatly in each of their appearances. That's part of the magic and freshness of LoZ. They still get movesets that make sense.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I also hate FE appearance in Smash

I still don't see how Star Fox characters have to do with smash, because they at least have consistent appearances and abilities

 

[bubbaking]

Those abilities aren't even canon. Fox has been shooting lasers since SSB 64, but his feet didn't touch the ground in a Starfox game until long after the GCN came out. They never use reflectors, Firefox/Falco, or Phantasm/Illusion in any way. Their movesets are completely made up, but no one has a problem with them. Same goes perfectly for Falcon. What I'm saying is that the same could easily be done for ANY character, including Impa if need be (like say, a move is still needed for a certain slot). She's even better because her games at least give her material to use. It would be interesting if she used abilities from multiple of her games, in fact, because it would be cool and interesting to see cameo-like references to a bunch of LoZ games.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I have no problem with non canon abilities in smash.

I have problem with the fact that Impa's appearance changes so drastically in each game that a singular moveset for the character Impa wouldn't be able to transfer from generation to generation

 

[bubbaking]

That's why you give her a mixed moveset from all her games a la my example with Mario. His moveset should also be changing drastically if you're adhering to just a single game in the series, but the best way to do it is to just give him abilities from all of his games. That also increases the chances of everyone recognizing something from him/her.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Mario doesn't suddenly become obese in one game, muscular in another, and old and frail in yet another.

There is no assurance Impa will be any kind of fit enough to be a feasible character in the next Zelda

 

[Arcadenik]

Knowing Sakurai, he probably would put in Fat Mario and call it a day.

 

[Big-Cat]

There is no assurance Impa will be any kind of fit enough to be a feasible character in the next Zelda

We've also seen that Ganondorf has varied greatly though not to the extent of Impa. OoT gave him a lean and muscular look. Wind Waker gave him an older, stockier (but not fat) appearance. Twilight Princess had this same thing too. Since OoT, Impa has been an amazon, a hefty but still scary woman, and now a much leaner apperance (a new Sheikah trait perhaps). I think it's safe to assume that any actual appearances of Impa will remain to be in fighitng condition. The old lady Impa, save for Skyward Sword, is more or less a thing of the past.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Those abilities aren't even canon. Fox has been shooting lasers since SSB 64, but his feet didn't touch the ground in a Starfox game until long after the GCN came out. They never use reflectors, Firefox/Falco, or Phantasm/Illusion in any way. Their movesets are completely made up, but no one has a problem with them. Same goes perfectly for Falcon. What I'm saying is that the same could easily be done for ANY character, including Impa if need be (like say, a move is still needed for a certain slot). She's even better because her games at least give her material to use. It would be interesting if she used abilities from multiple of her games, in fact, because it would be cool and interesting to see cameo-like references to a bunch of LoZ games.

Which is still completely legit, cause Sheik HERSELF has moves who are all made up. And for those who payed attention, Sheik was trained under Impa in OoT. So her following up Sheik isn't only a matter of relevancy and importance of the character, it also makes complete sence.

Every move Sheik did was completely made up, maybe except for Vanish cause thats basically all she does. Impa has actual abilities of herself, with the barrier and magic ball attacks. That's already a lot more than Sheik, plus she could have the Deku Nuts for Down B. Sheik couldn't have it, cause Sheik would always lack a Down B attack.

So yeah, mix up her Deku Nutting / Vanish abilities with a chargeable magic ball similar to the needles for B, and give her the barrier for Side B, and we have a mixed up moveset already for Impa. With multiple appearances even. Now make that lame Side B of Sheik's Impa's grab (including tether / Z Air) and we have a much improved Sheik. Change up a few moves but keep Sheik's tilts and important aerials and we have a character much improved.

She could also have a little mix of Lucario and Lucas's playstyles even if they wanted. That's why she could perhaps be a character with different stances during a fight. She could mix up palm fighting (thinking of it being similar to Wang, from Tekken) with a style similar to Sheik's and a style with her magic, ala Lucario / Lucas. This would make Impa also a 'semi-transforming character' that would be a nice throwback to Sheik. Her being an actual transforming character and all. Tilts and Smash attacks would be the only attacks which would change though. Aerials and specials would always stay the same.

 

[bombers14]

i completley forgot about the zant article i made. I'm fine with him or ghriham

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Knowing Sakurai, he probably would put in Fat Mario and call it a day.

You know what they say.....

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Zelda SSB4 Roster:

Link (Skyward Sword)

Zelda w/ Impa (Skyward Sword)

Ghirahim (Skyward Sword)

Ganondorf (Ocarina of Time 3D)

Toon Link (Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks)