Zelda Franchise Discussion

[bubbaking]

Hey, for all we know, SS Zelda is using her godly knowledge from her revived memories as Hylia, which would explain her fighting prowess. This would especially fit with Shin's suggestion that she return a bit older than she was in-game.

@Golden: That last part was never directed only at you.

 

[Deleted member]

And the main issue with Impa replacing Sheik is that it's a drastic change, which is what you Impa fans seem to not understand.

Zelda and Sheik have the same exact size and weight. Impa is much taller than Zelda, and given that she's as skinny as Waluigi, she would be lighter in comparison to her.
Already, the balance is shifted.

Removing the "transformation" gimmick (quotations because at this point, it wouldn't really be transformation) would take away from Zelda. People may act as though as this would just make Zelda better DURR, there is no guarantee that it will happen. The problem with Zelda/Sheik was Zelda, not Sheik. Removing Sheik is not going to fix the problem; the problem lies with Zelda.

And then there's the concept of Impa as a seperate character. The only way she can possibly preserve Sheik's moveset and playstyle is if she actually copies it.
We move on to changes like Diddy proposes, and it's lost forever.
We make changes that are needed only because Sheilda is broken up, and it's not really the Impa the Impa fanatics want.
Either way, Impa would never be just like Sheik, given the size and weight issue I brought up earlier.
It's a lose-lose situation.

Which is why the best option would be to revamp Zelda and make her better, keep Sheik, and make Impa her own character with her own set of moves. Where as Zelda/Sheik would be the "Mage vs. Ninja" fighter. Impa would be the best of both worlds, being both a mage AND a ninja.

EDIT:
Then there's Diddy's piss-poor excuses.
"As the Zelda / Sheik duo character idea just doesn't work. It's inbalanced, and not even unique anymore."
This is utter horsecrap. For one, the Sheilda fighting style does significantly better than Sheik alone or Zelda alone in matchups.
And two, no other character is able to switch forms at will with the press of a button command, as I've already explained (but little Diddy don't listen to anything that makes him wrong).
Samus can't turn into Zero Suit Samus and back again at will. This requires a Final Smash. At most, Samus can turn into Zero Suit using a rapid flurry of taunts, but Zero Suit can't turn back, making Samus impossible in typical no-item matches once Zero Suit is in play.
Pokemon Trainer? Switching through multiple Pokemon is a required mechanic due to the Stamina gimmick. Also, Pokemon are automatically switched out when KOed. A Zelda player can switch to Sheik whenever they want with no negative side effects and vice versa.

"Might also be the reason she was scrapped from Twilight Princess. Cause fans would know Sheik = Zelda in an instant, and it would spoil the plot immediately."

It's not so much the fans as it would be that it would be useless due to Ganondorf. A Zelda evaded him once using the Sheik disguise. Another Zelda doing the same thing would be obvious to him, making a far easier capture.
Unless you're under the impression that Ganondorf would be stupid enough to fall for the same trick twice.

"Hence she also wasn't even planned for Skyward Sword, but another Sheikah, Impa did make it in. See where I'm getting at?"

She wouldn't make sense in SS, because Ghirahim can sense her presence, something Ganondorf seems incapable of doing (couldn't tell Sheik was Zelda until she revealed herself to Link, had to kidnap every pointed eared girl because he couldn't tell which one was actually Zelda and didn't find out it was Tetra until he tried to strangle her, etc.).
If Ghirahim was near the disguised Zelda, he'd tell right away.

"If you want a transforming character, root for Toon Zelda and Tetra."

Except that unlike Sheik, Tetra is just how that Zelda was raised. She cannot voluntary transform between the two; Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule is the one that made her appear as Zelda, and his magic wore off when he drowned.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Samus / Zero Suit Samus was also a drastic change. Even moreso, cause Samus is from the original 8! No reason not to split up Zelda and Sheik, and call the new Sheik Impa.

Melee originally would have NESS replaced for Lucas, would Mother 64 have been actually released. I'd say an original Smash 64 character is more important than a side character who's nowadays completely irrelevant no?

Zelda wouldn't need to be so ridiculously unsafe if Sheik wasn't so damn broken in Melee. Hence why they nerfed both in Brawl, and both decided to suck. Ever hear of Sheik's popularity in Smash nowadays? I don't. Why? Cause she's not as overpowered as in Melee.

Impa -> Sheik is to me as logical as Toon Link -> Young Link.

 

[bubbaking]

On top of SS Zelda regaining her memories as the goddess Hylia (who fought an entire war Lord of the Rings style ) for fighting knowledge, she was the only Zelda to ever possess or have access to the ENTIRE Triforce. That works for making her 'adept enough' at magical combat.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

LOL at people wanting the tech demo look over an ACTUAL game look

 

[Diddy Kong]

On top of that LoTR war style, Impa was her handpicked warrior. She's a crazy killer machine.

Look at that tattoo under her eye. It's a tear, gangsters use similar tattoos when they kill a man (each tear = 1 dead man. Srs)

I'd give Zelda longer range, similar to Lucario. And make her a bit faster, improve hitboxes. Make her Side B work as it should, and make her somewhat smaller (SS Zelda / Hylia works perfect for that) so she's harder to hit.

Additionally, Impa's different statistics could actually be a boon. They could do lots more with the character, and finally give her and Zelda an actual Down B.

The tech demo won't be used for a Zelda game, this was confirmed a looooonggg time ago.

 

[bubbaking]

I still think it is VERY illogical to go through all the trouble of redesigning Sheik to fit a SS theme (providing Sakurai chooses that as his LoZ theme), when literally EVERYONE is going to remember that Impa was in SS and not Sheik and the thought of Impa is going to cross EVERYONE'S minds when you transform into/use Sheik, whether you supported Sheik's inclusion or not. I don't think Sakurai is going to do something that so radically goes against the direction the series has been taking like that when there's simply a much easier solution.

 

[Diddy Kong]

^ This.

They wanted to shaft Ness for Lucas before. Thing is, Mother 64 never came to excist. If it happened though, no DOUBT people would suggest this idea far more.

Also look at Lucario and Ike. Say what you want that they didn't replace Mewtwo and Roy, but it's funny how the new characters both are clearly based and build on the weaknesses Mewtwo and Roy had. Also, dem neutral Bs.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Zelda Skyward Sword was the 25th Anniversary game, and its artistic style was great (coming from someone who is artistic and likes that kind of thing). It had a better look than Twilight Princess. It actually had some color.

I don't get how people can hate it yet go all happy over the Cel-Shaded characters of the toon games.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hero Mode was also awesome. And yes, as the 25th anniversary Zelda, no doubt it's gonna get content.

Shame for you haters.

 

[Big-Cat]

GY, tell me whether or not Impa with a Sheik alternate costume would satisfy you. Essentially, Impa would be the spiritual successor to Sheik and considering that Sheik was a merely a disguise, it wouldn't be that absurd. It's not like we're comparing Jun to Asuka Kazama here.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Zelda Skyward Sword was the 25th Anniversary game, and its artistic style was great (coming from someone who is artistic and likes that kind of thing). It had a better look than Twilight Princess. It actually had some color.

I don't get how people can hate it yet go all happy over the Cel-Shaded characters of the toon games.

Well, I dislike the art style and I'm an artist as well

 

[bubbaking]

Because sheik is more important to smash bros.

What does this even MEAN? What constitutes as "important to smash bros"?

I'm sure a redesign from OOT graphics to TP graphics would be much harder to implement than a switch from OOT graphics to SS graphics

How do you figure that? Going from regular 3D models to regular 3D models with a darker color scheme and some sharper/smoother polygons seems easier to me than transforming them into 3D cell-shaded models that are much more visually stunning and pleasing than the already excellent '2.5D' cell-shaded models of WW.

As far fetched as that sounds, keep in mind that when TP Zelda turned into Sheik, her hair changed colors. I don't even see that necessary anymore.

That's really not hard and doesn't matter much, considering she also changed eye color and body shape when she transformed, even in OoT.

Besides, the only place I see Impa supported at all is here.

This is the third (maybe fourth, actually) thread where I've seen her inclusion supported and several of my friends (and all of my siblings) support that notion as well. Don't get too ahead of yourself, yo.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Well, I dislike the art style and I'm an artist as well

Cool, nice to know

 

[Diddy Kong]

That's the thing people keep forgetting: Sheik is a DISGUISE. A simple change of clothes

Spoiler

with an additional penis lol

. Where people upset cause of costume losses before? Anyone would miss Diddy's pink costume if Dixie becomes playable? I wouldn't.

Sheik is, and always wil be as overpowered as she is in Melee. So go ahead and play Melee if you want to plays as Sheik. Or Project M I guess.

Speaking of Impa, I think she'd easily have a moveset related to Kung Fu's famous Mantis Stance. Also looks extremely a like à picture that recently came up on Sakurai's Twitter (the ones with the plastic models).

 

[Deleted member]

And now the Impa fanatics are too clouded to actually see what I'm saying and see how it does not make sense.

I'm ****ing wasting my time.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Except you can't see the pro-Impa points either my man.

 

[bubbaking]

Plus, the concept of Zelda / Sheik really sucks, and always left Zelda being overshadowed by her alterego. Sheik is "SUPPOSED" to do the damage, but "SHE CAN'T FINISH", while Zelda just sucks, and when you land a blow (which doesn't happens much) it's like 'DA FAQ JUST HAPPENED?' this is not really effective. Especially in Melee, where Sheik could do just about everything beter than Zelda. In Brawl, both decided to suck, but Sheik was still better - so used more.

^^^All of thiiiiiiiiis! Zelda ALWAYS ends up being overshadowed by Sheik when Sakurai probably intended for Zelda to share the spotlight equally with her other half. It happens for ALL transforming chars. Someone always gets 'shafted' because of popularity. For PT, everyone liked Squirtle and Zard so much over Ivy. For Samus, everyone would rather play/watch ZSS. The best way to remedy this situation is to simply not join the two chars anymore so Zelda can have a chance to shine. On her own, Sheik definitely makes less sense than Impa. If anything, NO addition should be included to accompany Zelda but if one is, I highly suspect it will be Impa over Zelda. ALL the reasoning simply adds up. Recency, popularity, feasibility, avoiding controversial issues (because everyone will think of this when Smash 4 comes out), and giving Zelda a chance.

Impa can do everything Sheik could, but better, and add something to the moveset Sheik couldn't: barriers, Deku Nuts, a different fighting style and magic.

Well Sheik could use Deku nuts too, buddy, and she did.

 

[Deleted member]

GY, tell me whether or not Impa with a Sheik alternate costume would satisfy you. Essentially, Impa would be the spiritual successor to Sheik and considering that Sheik was a merely a disguise, it wouldn't be that absurd. It's not like we're comparing Jun to Asuka Kazama here.

It would not. As I said before that people IGNORE, Impa is a larger and presumably lighter character.
She would by no means make for a good replacement. Especially when people's idea of a "replacement" is "someone with different moves".

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

To not go with the Skyward Sword looks (as well as the DS looks, which are still practically the same as Wind Waker) in Smash Bros 4 would be going against what the Zelda roster (and mostly every other roster in Smash) has been doing since the first game.

Using the latest versions.

The original chose Ocarina of Time Link (I have a feeling if that did not come out it would have been A Link To The Past)

In Melee, all of the Zelda characters were Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask (tle latest two being the N64 titles).

In Brawl, all of the Zelda characters were based off the likes of Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, the Four Swords, and Minish Cap (being the latest ones of the Gamecube, Wii, and GBA).

Now with SSB4, the latest ones are Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, and Ocarina of Time 3D. They will base them off of those, especially the first three (although Toon Link wouldn't really change besides weapons and moveset).

To say they should go off a TECH DEMO (that looks like an older game) rather than the actual games from previous gen and this gen just because you hate Link's pants or whatever is being real selfish and asking to break what the games have done since day 1.

 

[bubbaking]

@Golden: I'm not even arguing with you anymore. I'm simply making points. Please don't assume that my statements are directed at you unless I type "@Golden" or I quote you.

 

[Diddy Kong]

But Sheik would always lack a Down B for that to be possible Bubba

You just summed it up perfectly. *bro fist*

 

[Deleted member]

Except you can't see the pro-Impa points either my man.

The pro-Impa points are heavily flawed and reek of bias without actual thought put into it. Especially by YOU. I see more thought put into bubba's points, and I'm only saying this because I don't want him to think I view his points as bad.
Just "HURR IMPA MORE RELEVANT. DURR SHEIK SUCK.", usually Diddy dribble.

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, THIS is directed at you Golden. You're pretty guilty of some bias too, saying things like 'SS Zelda is too "cheery" to include in Smash.' To be fair, we ALL are probably biased, and somewhat heavily too. It can't be helped. It's really hard to exclude partiality when it comes to speculation over something about which very little information has been released. That's why popularity plays such a big part in these arguments and debates tend to degrade to 'gang wars'.

I'm just saying I don't see Impa as an important character to the Zelda series. That probably won't change. I don't see sheik as one either, but sheik is part of princess Zelda.

How do you figure that Impa isn't an "important character to the Zelda series" when an incarnation of her has been included in a large number of LoZ games. This recent one just happens to be the most feasible one to include in Smash, barring her OoT incarnation.

 

[Deleted member]

Except that I've said it is my personal belief. I'm willing to admit my bias. You and Diddy have yet to do so.

Also, Impa has only been in 3 titles. That's not a large number. (4, if you count the Oracle games seperately)

The original 2 Zeldas don't count, as she is a manual-only character.
Conversely, Tingle's been in 5 games.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm arguing points all the time man. Unless you specifically put my pro-Impa points on ignore or something?

 

[bubbaking]

I already have and just did.

4 is a pretty big number for a game series. 5 is even bigger.

 

[Deleted member]

Check the edit. It's only 3.
And when the game series spans more than twice that amount, that's not a large number. It's a small fraction.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Cool, nice to know

Just sayin'

Talking like your all up in that department doesn't make you an expert on the subject. Like your opinion on it is more accurate than anyone elses

 

[Diddy Kong]

Also, Shielda's matchups are better than Sheik for like... 1 or 2 characters? Meaning, Zelda actually beats 2 characters out of 38 characters opposed to Sheik? You call that significant?? Only applies to Brawl though. In Melee, Shielda is a clear disadvantage for Sheik.

 

[bubbaking]

You can't really say major text references don't count. If that's the case, then I could argue Zelda isn't really that important until the third game because you never see her on-screen and she never plays a major role as a 'person' and not some diddly 'concept' until the end of the game.

A fraction doesn't have to equal half of the whole in order for it to be a large portion. A quarter is honestly enough to suffice for that. Are we going to say that the Metroid Prime trilogy (4 games if you count Hunters) isn't a large portion of the Metroid series just because it wasn't even close in number to half of the series' total games? I hope not.

 

[Frostwraith]

In my opinion, I think Sheik should stay as Zelda's Down B move. If they are going to choose SS style for SSB4, I don't see how much of a hassle would it be to design Sheik and Ganondorf in a similar art style. It's just a matter of asking the same artist(s) involved in Skyward Sword to do the job.

And Sheik's inclusion sure wouldn't stop Sakurai from including Impa, now would it?

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Just sayin'

Talking like your all up in that department doesn't make you an expert on the subject. Like your opinion on it is more accurate than anyone elses

I am not doing that though

 

[Deleted member]

You can't really say major text references don't count. If that's the case, then I could argue Zelda isn't really that important until the third game because you never see her on-screen and she never plays a major role as a 'person' and not some diddly 'concept' until the end of the game.

A fraction doesn't have to equal half of the whole in order for it to be a large portion. A quarter is honestly enough to suffice for that. Are we going to say that the Metroid Prime trilogy (4 games if you count Hunters) isn't a large portion of the Metroid series just because it wasn't even close in number to half of the series' total games? I hope not.

Who is the series named after? Zelda.
What is the story of the early games about? Saving Zelda. She's the major plot point.

Without Zelda, there would be no point of the story, and no game.
Take Impa out of the manuals, and nothing changes. Literally, since she doesn't appear in the games to begin with.

And you're comparing a story arc to a number of minor appearances of a character (with a pair of less minor appearances) in a far larger series. Seriously?

 

[Diddy Kong]

In my opinion, I think Sheik should stay as Zelda's Down B move. If they are going to choose SS style for SSB4, I don't see how much of a hassle would it be to design Sheik and Ganondorf in a similar art style. It's just a matter of asking the same artist(s) involved in Skyward Sword to do the job.

And Sheik's inclusion sure wouldn't stop Sakurai from including Impa, now would it?

It's actually extremely complicated, as now 2 of the Zelda games where Zelda characters from previous installments of Smash where based on. Wind Waker in Brawl, and Ocarina in Melee.

Thing is, in Brawl, the Triforce trio was based on Twilight Princess. So why would they go back to OoT when they have Skyward Sword around? No reason at all I feel.

Wind Waker styled Ganondorf would already fit in perfectly with the SS cast, so all that remains is redesigning Sheik. Again. Wih no concept art to base her on. And a perfectly fine, standalone character with Impa is still there. Who they could use to revamp Sheik on, and give her actual moves from the game.

If anything, they could make Toon Zelda and Tetra a duo character. But I'd rather have a standalone Tetra actually...

Dude, take Impa out and Zelda 1 didn't even happen.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Speaking of Zelda, why are they remaking WW when MM is the thing everyone asked for?

 

[Deleted member]

Because Miyamoto.

"You want Majora's Mask? Here's Wind Waker! "

 

[Frostwraith]

It's actually extremely complicated, as now 2 of the Zelda games where Zelda characters from previous installments of Smash where based on. Wind Waker in Brawl, and Ocarina in Melee.

Thing is, in Brawl, the Triforce trio was based on Twilight Princess. So why would they go back to OoT when they have Skyward Sword around? No reason at all I feel.

Wind Waker styled Ganondorf would already fit in perfectly with the SS cast, so all that remains is redesigning Sheik. Again. Wih no concept art to base her on. And a perfectly fine, standalone character with Impa is still there. Who they could use to revamp Sheik on, and give her actual moves from the game.

If anything, they could make Toon Zelda and Tetra a duo character. But I'd rather have a standalone Tetra actually...

And you insist on the same flawed argument: Sheik can't be in because they have no art from SS to base on. Sure, they had the TP concept art for Brawl, I give you that.

But your argument is a pitiful excuse to not include a returning character who's appeared in all SSB games, except the original, especially when considering that they have made designs for other characters made specifically for Smash. Pit would like to have a word with you:

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Or this version

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Speaking of Zelda, why are they remaking WW when MM is the thing everyone asked for?

Because Majora's Mask is obviously coming to the 3DS