Zelda Bottom Tier? Pbbbt, No

[ZombieBran]

Swordfighter is awful but I seriously think he's better off than Zelda. He at least has a few good moves and a plethora of specials to choose from.

Zelda is rigid and just bad. Every day my belief that she is currently the worst character in Smash 4 grows.

 

[Meek Moths]

Zelda is rigid and just bad. Every day my belief that she is currently the worst character in Smash 4 grows.

so what, play the game for fun and zelda is fun

 

[ZombieBran]

so what, play the game for fun and zelda is fun

Yes but sometimes I want my effort to be at least almost equal to the payoff.

 

[Fuoujin 2]

Swordfighter is awful but I seriously think he's better off than Zelda. He at least has a few good moves and a plethora of specials to choose from.

Zelda is rigid and just bad. Every day my belief that she is currently the worst character in Smash 4 grows.

Bleß these new smashers being logical and sensible!

 

[Furret]

please friends, do not forget our new down b, phantom, which rivals Sheik's down b in usefulness

can you explain uses for D Special for me? I love to play Zelda, but I'm awful at it every gen. Mainly cause my reads are trash and she is a character that relies on them. But outside of eating projectiles and punishing stupid dash attacks, I feel that how long the attack takes to perform and finish isn't very beneficial. Even when quickly used my approaching opponent can quickly react, shield, roll and grab that booty while I'm still suffering the lag. I was really hoping the attack would be like a quick din's fire (or could be stored at the very least) in terms of starting and ending lag. Rather then just a Din's fire considering its reach.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

can you explain uses for D Special for me? I love to play Zelda, but I'm awful at it every gen. Mainly cause my reads are trash and she is a character that relies on them. But outside of eating projectiles and punishing stupid dash attacks, I feel that how long the attack takes to perform and finish isn't very beneficial. Even when quickly used my approaching opponent can quickly react, shield, roll and grab that booty while I'm still suffering the lag. I was really hoping the attack would be like a quick din's fire (or could be stored at the very least) in terms of starting and ending lag. Rather then just a Din's fire considering its reach.

@ Rion showed me a cool use for using it when people like to recover high, but other than that it really is pretty useless lol

Rion would know more tbh, so I tagged him for you

 

[Meek Moths]

Well, in for glory, some people dont know that the fully charged phantom hits two times, so they shield the first one but get hit by the other. or they get shield poked by the second hit. Not gonna work against smart guys yho.

 

[Rion]

Phantoms is DEFINITELY something you don't want to use head on. It's slow charge up and limited range makes it something you can't use on a whim.

However, it is actually much more useful used as an aerial punishing tool, if you can call it that:

For people that recover high - mid heights back to the stage, it's definitely dangerous as the killing power that close to the blast zone is most likely going to kill someone at moderately high percentages.

Another way you can use it:

Purposely missing the 1st hit, but aiming to hit with the 2nd one (the one with all the KO power). Many people underestimate the range of the 2nd hit of a fully charged Phantom Slash because the 1st one is so linear, so you can use that to your advantage.

Usually my mindset of edgeguarding with Phantom is, "When will the opponent just at the right distance so that it looks like Phantom Slash is going to miss, but they'll get knicked by the 2nd strike?" That has been my most practical use for it.

Also, against people with linear vertical recoveries like Marth, Captain Falcon, Ganon etc, the wall box that the phantom creates can sometimes be enough to prevent them from snapping to the ledge if they don't recover properly. I've had a handful of times where the phantom wall box prevents them from moving forward, and they plummet to their doom.

You could also use it the @Nairo way:

Personally I'm a bit interested in exploring a bit of "towards the stage" Phantom Slashing, but I haven't had the guts to do it quite yet haha.

Finally, I've had a little bit of success where when people are coming down from a high place and you retreating jump back in the direction of their momentum whilst charging Phantom, baiting the airdodge and letting Phantom fly as they're suffering from the after lag. This one's a little trickier, but it's something!

Another really important thing for all these methods is making sure you know your opponent doesn't have any jumps left. It will certainly force a better situation for yourself if you know they're all out of jumping options.

As obvious as this sounds, doing any of these Phantom Slash shenanigans is advised extra caution against people with reflectors. I'm uncertain if the actual slash hitboxes are reflect-able or if it's just the actual advancing phantom that needs to be reflected... some testing is in order!

Hopefully this helps!

 

[Furret]

Personally I'm a bit interested in exploring a bit of "towards the stage" Phantom Slashing, but I haven't had the guts to do it quite yet haha.

honestly thanks to what just feels like better recovery (even though it's kinda the same) that's when I find this move is
most useful, mainly because of the wall it creates, it doesn't put her in a vulnerable state and will force an air dodge at least on the aggressor for possible follow up, unlike some other none mentioned moves. I will admit though after jumping back and sending fire balls to realized I jumped of the edge, I'm hesitant on using this too.

Well, in for glory, some people don't know that the fully charged phantom hits two times, so they shield the first one but get hit by the other. or they get shield poked by the second hit.

not after tactics against dumb people sadly. Most people I play with are smarter players then me

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Ehh I think she's low mid or just solid mid, but if u disagree don't let tiers make u stop main characters. Just use who you liked

 

[Kevandre]

Easily the most underrated character in the game

 

[Furret]

Easily the most underrated character in the game

sense Olimar exists and a total of 0% of the world's population plays him, the award for most underrated will always go to him while he is a smash character.

 

[Kevandre]

sense Olimar exists and a total of 0% of the world's population plays him, the award for most underrated will always go to him while he is a smash character.

But he is really bad. He was one of my favorites in Brawl. I mean, he may have some potential but I honestly think that Zelda gets way more crap than she deserves

 

[Phenomiracle]

Not really. Just poke around r/smashbros or around this forum and you'll find people saying "Zelda is awesome, she's solid," "Lol L2Farore's," or "L2Din's."

Only here do people actually know the reality. She's still a WIP character. For the third game in a row.

 

[ZombieBran]

Olimar is quite a bit better than Zelda, honestly.

 

[Brinzy]

I love Zelda as much as anyone else here, but I'm not gonna lie about something I love.

She needs an entire rework before she can ever be considered a decent character, or she needs massive buffs like Project M brought. If she had her current specials, Brawl's smash attacks, and melee's fair/bair, she'd still be pretty awful because the character is just fundamentally flawed.

The thing is, I doubt she's really going to get it. They reworked Falco just so he wasn't a Fox clone and it more or less worked out for him. There isn't an incentive to rework Zelda because this is Smash Bros.

Giving her two additional strong approach options - or a legitimate way to force approaches - would probably push her from an absolute wreck to at least being serviceable. Give her a real jab. Give her a little more movement speed. Give her a different fair from bair... like imagine this character with a fair like Ness or Marcina. They even missed a good opportunity with not allowing her down B to be stored. It is possible that they didn't want this to be a thing.

There are many things that could be done to help this character, and some of the things I listed are just pure buffs to already existing design, but what she really needs above all else is a total redesign if we ever want to see Zelda in the top half of the cast.

 

[Phenomiracle]

I'd push back against a complete overhaul. Better movement speed and retooling of attacks and specials (Din's and Phantom), sure. Project M is proof of direct buffs being all that Zelda needs to be a force to be reckoned with.

As it stands, I've always liked her design philosophy. She was always meant to be a glass cannon who required immense precision. Her problem comes from Sakurai not conceptualizing a proper balance between her glass and cannon. In Brawl, movement was one of her biggest issues. Sm4sh's physics assisted in having Zelda move easier, but then Sakurai proceeded to nerf her Smashes and Nair, thinking a kill move in Farore's Wind compensated for it.

If she had her current specials, Brawl's smash attacks, and melee's fair/bair, she'd still be pretty awful because the character is just fundamentally flawed.

I disagree quite a bit. Granted, that isn't my idea of a perfect Zelda, but Melee Fair/Bair and Brawl Smashes would lift her quite a bit.

I'd say one of her biggest peeves in Sm4sh is the failure to reward the ridiculous precision required to land her aerials. Uair should kill at 70%. Nair should be 13% with minimal lag. Dair should stay is in Sm4sh. Melee Fair/Bair need desperately return.

 

[Brinzy]

Project M is proof of direct buffs being all that Zelda needs to be a force to be reckoned with.

Right, hence:

She needs an entire rework before she can ever be considered a decent character, or she needs massive buffs like Project M brought.

 

[Phenomiracle]

You went on to emphasize why she needs an overhaul over all else.

I'm simply disagreeing with that.

 

[UkeNicky]

What do you guys think it would mean if she could store Phantom?
I feel like it's such a small change that could benefit her sooo much ;^;

I think I could live with Din's Fire if it didn't put you into helpless falling state when you use it in the air

 

[ZombieBran]

What do you guys think it would mean if she could store Phantom?
I feel like it's such a small change that could benefit her sooo much ;^;
I think I could live with Din's Fire if it didn't put you into helpless falling state when you use it in the air

That's one of the most requested changes. Just have a Villager pocket Phantom and see why it would be such a great buff. Phantom would go from laughably overspecialized to a very real projectile threat. Zelda needs a very real projectile threat if she will ever be a successful defensive character.

 

[UkeNicky]

I wonder if they'll consider it in any future patches, it would certainly give us something awesome to work with. Kind of like Rob's Gyro, only I guess you wouldn't be able to pick up the Phantom after you throw him out xP

 

[ZombieBran]

Kind of like Rob's Gyro, only I guess you wouldn't be able to pick up the Phantom after you throw him out xP

(and slower with more end lag!)

Sakurai said there'd be no more balance patches. Which makes me feel bad breaking the news to you lol

 

[UkeNicky]

Sakurai said there'd be no more balance patches. Which makes me feel bad breaking the news to you lol

Aww, I thought I remembered reading that somewhere. Oh well, wishful thinking xP

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Tier lists are currently created by extreme doses of speculation/bias and by people who specialize in 1/10 the roster. They rank their favorite characters and then just throw the rest into a pile.

Zelda is quite good. It's your guys' job to make it happen.

 

[UkeNicky]

Zelda is quite good. It's your guys' job to make it happen.

[Insert pessimistic Zelda player complaints]
But seriously, you've got a great point, who knows maybe someone might find some hidden potential in Zelda. Nairo seems to do her great justice in the tournament scene from what I've seen at least.

 

[Meru.]

I love Zelda as much as anyone else here, but I'm not gonna lie about something I love.

She needs an entire rework before she can ever be considered a decent character, or she needs massive buffs like Project M brought. If she had her current specials, Brawl's smash attacks, and melee's fair/bair, she'd still be pretty awful because the character is just fundamentally flawed.

The thing is, I doubt she's really going to get it. They reworked Falco just so he wasn't a Fox clone and it more or less worked out for him. There isn't an incentive to rework Zelda because this is Smash Bros.

Giving her two additional strong approach options - or a legitimate way to force approaches - would probably push her from an absolute wreck to at least being serviceable. Give her a real jab. Give her a little more movement speed. Give her a different fair from bair... like imagine this character with a fair like Ness or Marcina. They even missed a good opportunity with not allowing her down B to be stored. It is possible that they didn't want this to be a thing.

There are many things that could be done to help this character, and some of the things I listed are just pure buffs to already existing design, but what she really needs above all else is a total redesign if we ever want to see Zelda in the top half of the cast.

Giving her Melee Fair and Bair would give her an awesome approaching option and a strong air game. These moves are safe, strong, fast, have range and are basically everything you want in life. Now combine that with her current Dtilt and Throw. Melee Fair and Bair are crazyyy. If she also would get a good Usmash (Brawl), a Dsmash with range (Brawl) and an inescapable Fsmash... well perhaps she wouldn't be top or even high but I dare betting she would definitely be very solid.

Tier lists are currently created by extreme doses of speculation/bias and by people who specialize in 1/10 the roster. They rank their favorite characters and then just throw the rest into a pile.

Zelda is quite good. It's your guys' job to make it happen.

You're being sarcastic.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU ARE

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm not being sarcastic... but I'm also not promising her a high position in the actual tier list later.

 

[UkeNicky]

At least she (usually) gets massive style points when she does KO someone.
FW, Phantom and Din are all pretty neat KO moves despite being depressing options.
My personal favorite is her U air after Down throw at high percentage, U air is pretty bad by itself but if you can land it off of down throw it's very satisfying and can KO relatively easily
oh, wait her grab game got nerfed tho, -sigh-

 

[Alphatron]

Uair isn't that strong in this game. By the time your opponent is at KO percentage, dthrow to uair stops being a combo at all.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Zelda is quite good.

 

[Meek Moths]

uair strong, good reach, very nice

 

[ZombieBran]

I'm not being sarcastic... but I'm also not promising her a high position in the actual tier list later.

So easy to take the safe route and non-commit to any statement

She's not good. The question is how bad is she or if she's just mediocre.

 

[Furret]

What do you guys think it would mean if she could store Phantom?
I feel like it's such a small change that could benefit her sooo much ;^;
I think I could live with Din's Fire if it didn't put you into helpless falling state when you use it in the air

could mean that she might be able to directly set up into it, but it still has bad starting frames asking me. If they reduced the start up frames, made it longer to charge, have the push box actually work, let it be stored and reduced it's damage then I'd like it.

Also for Din's I'd like her to be able to use the explosion when she wants and reduce its damage, these two changes to these abilities would like her combo projectiles into projectiles after a long set up. but I'd like the option

uair strong, good reach, very nice

well the brawl version is, a lot of zelda kill options were nerfed to make space for FW

 

[Meek Moths]

i think its the same as in brawl just hard to notice because smash 4 has higher ceilings

 

[ZombieBran]

i think its the same as in brawl just hard to notice because smash 4 has higher ceilings

Uair kills easily 30% later than it used to.

Nothing leads into it at kill percents and it's so telegraphed. This was true in Brawl but at least you got an early KO for landing it.

 

[Meek Moths]

i remember brawl uair KOd around 80%

smash 4 KO's around....80-90% depending on how close to the blastzone the opponent is ofcourse

ediit: actually im no longer sure what brawl uair did its so long sicne i last played and i sold my copy so i cant test it :/

 

[ZombieBran]

i remember brawl uair KOd around 80%

smash 4 KO's around....80-90% depending on how close to the blastzone the opponent is ofcourse

ediit: actually im no longer sure what brawl uair did its so long sicne i last played and i sold my copy so i cant test it :/

I just tested it because I have memories of getting 70% KOs with Brawl Uair when they were in the air.

I used the bottom platforms of Battlefield for both.

It starts killing training CPU Mario at 114% in SSB4 (or 112% without the red electricity)
Brawl Mario starts being KOed at 85%.

This is on the Wii U version too where the blast zones are smaller than the 3DS version.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

So easy to take the safe route and non-commit to any statement

She's not good. The question is how bad is she or if she's just mediocre.

I'm trying to prevent everyone else from committing to her being bad.

There is so much more to whether a character is strictly good or bad cross the board. Young Link is bad in Melee... yet he showed up yesterday to counter Ice Climbers in a large tournament. It's important to maintain an open mind. I agree that Zelda is already struggling in the Sm4sh meta, but she may yet prove to be a particular strategy's undoing.

 

[Meek Moths]

It starts killing training CPU Mario at 114% in SSB4 (or 112% without the red electricity)
Brawl Mario starts being KOed at 85%.

classic Masahiro