Zelda Bottom Tier? Pbbbt, No

[Sugar Cookie]

Many tier lists like Reddit and Eventhubs have Zelda bottom tier. Eventhubs isn't reliable but is she really bottom tier? Pbbbt no. I believe she is at least mid. What do you guys think?

 

[evmaxy54]

If this thread was made pre-1.0.4 I would've agreed. But alas, it is not. :/

 

[Sugar Cookie]

If this thread was made pre-1.0.4 I would've agreed. But alas, it is not. :/

I still don't think she is bottom tier from the patch. She got no nerfs and some characters that aren't top got nerfed. I still think she's mid or at least the top of low

 

[evmaxy54]

She got no nerfs

Sadly, you are incorrect. She did got hit by the nerf hammer pretty hard from the update. One of her best options pre-patch, the Roll Cancelled Pivot Grab, is now very tricky to pull off & the range of it got smaller (although this affected everyone, Zelda was one of the ones who benefitted from this the most).

 

[Alacion]

Results > opinions.

 

[evmaxy54]

Results > opinions.

Point taken. But I miss mah troll-worthy grab range ;_;

 

[Alacion]

Point taken. But I miss mah troll-worthy grab range ;_;

Never used that grab personally. In my region, something with that much range would just result in even more camping.

 

[Sugar Cookie]

She still has many things she has going for her tho like that Farore's wind punish. The ability to kill at 80% decent combos and offstage game with that dair. Even without the RC pivot grab I still see her as mid

 

[Sugar Cookie]

I found this on reddit and I agree with zeldas spot

 

[CommanderPepper]

I don't see the nerf to RCPG that big of a deal.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The problem with putting Zelda out of low tier is that you have to think of a group characters who are actually worse off than she is. In every Smash game, Zelda has been thought to be better than she actually turned out being by most players. Misjudgements repeat themselves, and this generation is no different.

 

[Fuoujin 2]

Never used that grab personally. In my region, something with that much range would just result in even more camping.

Excuse you

My "For Glory" record is 100 wins to 14 losses and last week I killed Nicole with farore's wind at 70.
Nario beat somebody day 2 on the 3DS version with her.


This character is clearly viable.


Ur probably not playing her right.

 

[Alacion]

Clearly. Not to mention, if I'm good, I can escape every combo/approach and reset to neutral whenever I want with Farore's Wind at my disposal. 16 totally different directions is just too broken! I mean I should pretty much be JV3/4 stocking everybody, depending on how many stocks we start with.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

please friends, do not forget our new down b, phantom, which rivals Sheik's down b in usefulness

also dins fire is very good for forcing air dodges which we can punish with foroes wind

 

[Meru.]

You guys forget her Dtilt > Lightning Kick is guaranteed 1/10 times now which is way more than Brawl.

 

[Fernosaur]

You guys forget her Dtilt > Lightning Kick is guaranteed 1/10 times now which is way more than Brawl.

Holy **** I gotta practis dis

 

[ZombieBran]

Getting that kill is so satisfying every blue moon!
And makes me wish Zelda had true kill confirm combos.

 

[HiFlo]

You guys forget her Dtilt > Lightning Kick is guaranteed 1/10 times now which is way more than Brawl.

Soooooo satisfying in this game!

Anywho, why i think shes mid tier:

• I think all her tilts are great,quick and useful, Utilt buff recently (as someone said earlier)
• Dtilt->Ftilt->???->Profit is nice.
• Utilts(2-3)-> Nair at lower percents is nice too

• Downthrow->Nair/Fair/Bair//Bluff to punish. You can always mix it up and either hit them or just make them airdodge/keep them off balance. Alot of characters have a steady throw-> into something else but Zelda kills so early that a downthrow->bait airdodge+Bair or Fair will kill VERY early. As in before 100%, which can be hard to do in this game.

• NeutralB is so versatile I love it. It can reflect/damage close attackers/ punish rollers, used as a pursuit in midair and stalls you in the air a bit i believe as well. Hitboxes linger around so that even a decent timed dodge or roll from your opponent won't be enough.

• Up+B is straight fire flamez in this game. So much versatility and killpower, great for mindgames and sneaky kills. Can reposition yourself pretty much whenever you want. Hitting them with the first part hits them into the second part which is cool.

• Side+B is easy to control and kills early, start-up is a little too slow but its really great for campers or people trying to get back on stage, can control alot of airspace with it and manipulate your opponent. It also has a unique trait in that villager and people of the like cannot absorb it( i know villager can't pocket it anyway).

• Down+B is very versatile as someone said earlier, can guard ledge, eat hits for you, protect you and lead the charge in an offensive move. Defensive and Offensive move.

So i guess what i'm saying is, her versatility in combination with her ability to kill early with alot of her moves, in my opinion makes her unable to be low tier. However, things like her regular a attack, ability to get punished on all whiffed B attacks and her difficulty at keeping opponents at optimal distances on occasion hold her back a little bit for me. She's a touch too slow in some areas.

 

[Meek Moths]

characters like ZSS are S tier in this game, which zelda definitely is not


































zelda is SS tier

 

[Los4Muros]

I think you guys have to accept that Zelda is a Low Tier. Unless a new patch comes out, she can't really do much. I've been playing with her for a couple of weeks trying to see if I can discover anything interesting in her, but truth be told, I think there's few for her to do. Her Smash attacks aren't very good. Lacks kill moves and Side B is the only special I consider worthy of using to combat. She has her goods and bads. And I'm almost sure that in the next patch, she'll get some attention as well as some characters who lack it. I was disappointed that Samus was considered a Low Tier, but playing with her makes me undertstand that they're right. I believe the same goes for Zelda. We can train with her, but our biggest chance is wait for a new patch to come out. Once it does, all that training will be worth it. But really, saying she's a mid-tier isn't right.

 

[Zylach]

Her side B isn't actually her best special in any way. Neutral B is a fantastic tool especially for punishing rolls, spotdodges, and failed grabs (invulnerability frames on her Neutral B means, if you predict a grab, you won't get grabbed at all and get free damage on the enemy). Her smashes are somewhat unreliable except her d-smash though its range leaves a lot to be desired.

Saying that she lacks kill moves is not accurate in any way though. She has plenty of kill moves (most of her arsenal is made for killing) but her kill moves are punishable (lightning kicks have ridiculous end/landing lag, fsmash and usmash don't always keep enemies inside for the full duration, and side-B/down-B are super predictable as is Farore's Wind though comboing it into itself is pretty fast since the ribbon damage comes out really fast). Her most reliable kill move for me is her uair after a d-throw or d-throw, bait air dodge, and usmash. Yes, she is less reliable than a lot of characters but she kills a lot earlier than most characters as well not to mention she has one of the best/safest recoveries in the game. Don't forget that she does have a reliable footsie game with side tilt and down tilt and can combo out of down tilt reliably as well.

I'd personally put her in mid tier but possibly on the low end. Not low tier. There are several characters that I think belong there that Zelda doesn't belong alongside such as Ike, Olimar, Dr. Mario, and Luigi.

 

[LonkQ]

I can see it. I just don't get what Zelda is supposed to do when looking at her moveset. To be honest, she feels worse than she did in Brawl, although the nerfed Brawl top tiers helps out some.

 

[Zylach]

I've heard that a lot from others when they play her. She is a weird character to be honest and I suppose a minority of players really fit that kind of play style. If I had to describe her, I'd say she's like a pseudo-zoning/punisher/heavy hitter/risk reward character with a reflector and great recovery. Rolls off the tongue, I know

 

[LonkQ]

I'm not sure I get it. Her reward on hit feels lacking, as well as her combos. Her mobility is awful, her air game is risky because of that sweetspot reliance and horrible landing lag on aerials as well as lack of autocancels from a shorthop outside of Nair and Dair. I feel like it might be better to stay on the ground, but her ground moves don't feel all that great either. It's so hard to find something good about this character.

 

[CommanderPepper]

When I play Zelda I use jab a lot and then go for a grab. I'll throw out a forward smash to catch opponents who are frustrated. I just want to frustrate the opponent into making mistakes. I have no problem with staying on the ground and staying at an annoying range for the opponent.

 

[Zylach]

I'm not sure I get it. Her reward on hit feels lacking, as well as her combos. Her mobility is awful, her air game is risky because of that sweetspot reliance and horrible landing lag on aerials as well as lack of autocancels from a shorthop outside of Nair and Dair. I feel like it might be better to stay on the ground, but her ground moves don't feel all that great either. It's so hard to find something good about this character.

She has some combos out of dtilt which is one of her better moves. Ftilt is another but with less combo potential. I'll agree that her reward on hit isn't always there. Personally, I play a pretty grab dependent Zelda because her dthrow is so rewarding with followups from nair, bair, fair, and uair. I'll agree with you that her mobility is awful which is why she needs the opponent to approach her so she can punish them if they mess up and she's built to force them to mess up with her new phantom and Nayru's Love with its invulnerability frames. She's also definitely not an aerial character. She should be sticking to the ground unless she has guaranteed followups in the air. The only reliable aerial she can just throw out there is nair. She doesn't rack up damage really well but she doesn't need to since she kills so early. Like I said earlier, not low tier but low on the middle tier most likely because of the few tools she has that are really powerful like her insane kill potential. I've killed with her lightning kicks at 60% and her uair at 80% before. Her Farore's Elevator gimmick actually kills ridiculously early, around 60-80%.

 

[Fernosaur]

Zelda is the mother of all bottom tiers. People have been talking about Olimar as being the absolute bottom tier for Smash 4, and yet I'm pretty sure Olimar is, once again, an incredible pain in the ass to fight against as Zelda.

I can see it. I just don't get what Zelda is supposed to do when looking at her moveset. To be honest, she feels worse than she did in Brawl, although the nerfed Brawl top tiers helps out some.

PERSON, DO YOU PLAY ETRIAN ODYSSEY? YOUR AVATAR BETRAYS YOU.

 

[Zylach]

I've never had a problem with Olimar. Though, I haven't faced many great ones. I might've faced one good one before but it didn't feel like an uphill battle. Zelda only really struggles heavily against quick, rushdown characters which Olimar is not. That and Rosie but everyone struggles against Rosie.

 

[Fernosaur]

I can see what you mean because a badly played Olimar can be really easy to beat because of how much micromanaging he requires. But seriously if you think about the metagame itself, Olimar is like a perfect mid-range camper, which is so bad for Zelda it's almost funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG6JBydCN88

This isn't against Zelda and maybe the skill of that ZSS might or might not be questionable but I think you'll see Olimar's potential. Actually, I had posted my comment about him before watching that video and while in blissful ignorance. Now I dunno why people think he's terrible.

Edit: Although his damage output was SUUUPER nerfed.

 

[Alacion]

I played against him with Zelda. Didn't win a single game but some were pretty close.

It's probably because he plays Wiichuk and we played on the 3ds. Now he's back in his element and doing damage.

 

[Zylach]

I don't think that ZSS was amazing but knew how to use the character at least. She might not have known the matchup. That being said though, the Olimar definitely knew what he was doing and was doing it well. I suppose, given how little I know about the matchup, I'm probably making some unsubstantiated claims about it. On top of that, I think this says more about how well the game was balanced. Even the character that so many people claim to be bottom tier is able to put up a good fight. I guess, with that in mind, worrying about being in low tier isn't even a big problem for us Zelda mains since the tier discrepancies just aren't what they used to be. Besides, arguing tier lists right now is a bit premature on our part anyway as the metagame is still very young. I like that she's just been referred to as the mother of all bottom tiers though. That title sounds a bit redeeming at least. It's better than Ganon's old title of brawl, "**** tier."

 

[ZombieBran]

So this was mentioned in the social thread but I don't think Olimar is all that bad anymore.
He is still faster and has more range than Zelda. He's also tiny and hard to pin down. He doesn't' even kill late with the right Pikmin. Everything Zelda hates.

All the bottom tiers I hear cited all have things going for them that makes us look like a buncha jokers.

?
Extremely damaging strings, heavy, like every move of his can kill reliably and early, Ftilt and Jab.

?
UpB, heavy, huge range, fast mobility, reliable and great kill power. Can't go above him. Probably more, I never use him.

?
Actual projectiles, decent aerials, good tilts.

I can't see who is worse than Zelda. If anyone can find a character who struggles more, tell me. Because you can say, though I'd disagree, that Zelda feels mid tier but that doesn't matter unless you have context.

 

[Soluble Toast]

Side B worthy of use? Din's Fire is garbage. Nayru's Love/ Farore's are her only decent specials.
Sakurai, y u no give us storeable Phantom!?

 

[Tyketto]

Honestly, the whole "Zelda's Bottom Tier" thing doesn't bother me anymore. If people want to think she sucks, they can think that all they want. I still enjoy playing with her, she's still my best character and I still win more matches with her than any other character I play with.

 

[kyxsune]

She may not be the worst, but shes down there for sure. Maybe its just me but it feels like she doesn't quite excel at anything.

 

[GameAngel64]

So this was mentioned in the social thread but I don't think Olimar is all that bad anymore.
He is still faster and has more range than Zelda. He's also tiny and hard to pin down. He doesn't' even kill late with the right Pikmin. Everything Zelda hates.

All the bottom tiers I hear cited all have things going for them that makes us look like a buncha jokers.

?
Extremely damaging strings, heavy, like every move of his can kill reliably and early, Ftilt and Jab.

?
UpB, heavy, huge range, fast mobility, reliable and great kill power. Can't go above him. Probably more, I never use him.

?
Actual projectiles, decent aerials, good tilts.

I can't see who is worse than Zelda. If anyone can find a character who struggles more, tell me. Because you can say, though I'd disagree, that Zelda feels mid tier but that doesn't matter unless you have context.

Ganondorf and Zelda are similar in both being slow with strong attacks, but Ganondorf has the benefit of being able to take more damage before getting knocked out.

I feel like DK has this reputation of being slow but in terms of end lag and such on a lot of his moves, he is really quite fast!

Not sure about Wii Fit Trainer. Seems quirky and annoying, but not amazing. This character probably needs more and better representation before I can judge.

 

[ZombieBran]

She may not be the worst, but shes down there for sure. Maybe its just me but it feels like she doesn't quite excel at anything.

FW is a truly remarkable punish. As are kicks. She has that!

The problem is that punishes will be less and less available (though obviously still there because no one is perfect) so we'll get less and less easy kills as players learn the Zelda matchup. It's not the hardest matchup to adapt to, either.

 

[KenMeister]

So this was mentioned in the social thread but I don't think Olimar is all that bad anymore.
He is still faster and has more range than Zelda. He's also tiny and hard to pin down. He doesn't' even kill late with the right Pikmin. Everything Zelda hates.

All the bottom tiers I hear cited all have things going for them that makes us look like a buncha jokers.

?
Extremely damaging strings, heavy, like every move of his can kill reliably and early, Ftilt and Jab.

?
UpB, heavy, huge range, fast mobility, reliable and great kill power. Can't go above him. Probably more, I never use him.

?
Actual projectiles, decent aerials, good tilts.

I can't see who is worse than Zelda. If anyone can find a character who struggles more, tell me. Because you can say, though I'd disagree, that Zelda feels mid tier but that doesn't matter unless you have context.

I don't think anyone is worse than Mii Swordfighter to be honest. lol

 

[Tyketto]

I don't think anyone is worse than Mii Swordfighter to be honest. lol

What's funny is, out of all the Mii Fighters, I actually seem to do best with the Swordfighter. And the Brawler (the one everyone seems to favor) is my worst.

 

[MrEh]

Man, sure is 2008 in here.

The issue with Zelda remains that she has no approach, is slow as bricks, and trades unfavorably in many situations. It's so very easy to get Zelda in extremely compromising situations when all you have to do is get her in the air and stand underneath her.

Yes she's strong. Yes that means she has strong punishes. However, Zelda has poor means to force these when her approach is terrible and can't pressure her opponent to make any sort of mistakes in the first place.

Ganondorf and Zelda are similar in both being slow with strong attacks, but Ganondorf has the benefit of being able to take more damage before getting knocked out.

Ganon also has the benefit of having a single aerial that is better then all of Zelda's combined.

She may not be the worst, but shes down there for sure. Maybe its just me but it feels like she doesn't quite excel at anything.

She excels at punishing low level play, since you can go for more punishes and people run into her stuff.