Your greatest competitive concerns for Ultimate

William5000000

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#41
I don't think we have to remove star/screen KOs to make them more consistent.

Just make the stock be removed as soon as the player hits the blast zone, like with any other KO.
Not the ideal thing I'd want, but as long as the iconic Star KOs/Screen KOs only occur (excluding the cruddy upper Blast KOs in my opinion), I'm willing to accept that.
 

Hot_N_Tasty

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#42
I never noticed that the Star KO was RNG, that's a little worrisome. Sides that, I worry about an inaccurate training mode, and to make this game more combo friendly. Whether it's by fixing knockback or increasing hitstun, I don't really care, just bring back combos and aggressive edge play (the latter of those two looking to be in).
 

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#44
How are randomized Star KOs a problem?
My understanding is that it's a time issue. If you hit a guy up as the clock is running out and they do the star KO instead of immediately dying, it could result in them winning by time out. Or another situation is if you get a trade that launches you to the side but your opponent upwards and they get the star KO, they'd end up winning that just on the dumb luck that their death animation took longer than you hitting the blast zone.
 

Hot_N_Tasty

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#45
My understanding is that it's a time issue. If you hit a guy up as the clock is running out and they do the star KO instead of immediately dying, it could result in them winning by time out. Or another situation is if you get a trade that launches you to the side but your opponent upwards and they get the star KO, they'd end up winning that just on the dumb luck that their death animation took longer than you hitting the blast zone.
You said it better than I could have. To clarify, I don't mind the two being an option at all, just if there was a way to know ahead of time what the outcome would be if a fighter is sent above the top blast zone.
 

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#46
You said it better than I could have. To clarify, I don't mind the two being an option at all, just if there was a way to know ahead of time what the outcome would be if a fighter is sent above the top blast zone.
It's the RNG that's the issue, exactly. Either just have star, just have screen, or just have the blast. Maybe it's something they could limit to 1v1 matches just like they're doing with damage, because if I'm honest, in a free for all, "just for fun" environment, I actually really like the occasional star/screen splat KO.
 

Hot_N_Tasty

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#48
It's the RNG that's the issue, exactly. Either just have star, just have screen, or just have the blast. Maybe it's something they could limit to 1v1 matches just like they're doing with damage, because if I'm honest, in a free for all, "just for fun" environment, I actually really like the occasional star/screen splat KO.
I like this idea. Another one I was thinking of could be not Star/Screen (just one ofc) KO on a fighter's last stock or when only a set out of time (e.g. last 30 seconds of a timed match) is remaining.
 

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#49
All my concerns with Smash 5 really just come down to critical analysis of the current build that's shown.

The game as it's shown currently hyperpolarizes having a good recovery due to the rather drastic nerfs to airdodging offstage as a recovery mixup. It's pretty obvious when watching MKLeo play Sonic. Deep edgeguards are meta when there's hardly any counterplay to mashing buttons in someone's face offstage, and the fact Sonic actually has a high recovery that isn't immediately suicide also is gamechanging.

I'm also not particularly a fan of nerfing shield drop to 11 frames, but especially given jumpsquat is now universally 3 frames, it basically means the real defensive neutral meta boils down to F-air oos. So we're back to Marth being insane again for potentially the wrong reasons.

Likewise Ganon sucks since he neither has a really fast F-air oos to abuse consistently for defense, nor does he have a strong recovery to enable stable survivability. A lot of what I expect for Ganon's meta is basically due to his kinda meh frame data and blindspots, he'll inevitably have a lot of situations where the only thing he can really do is D-air oos and hope the opponent plays really unsafe around it. And that's before we factor how much he's crippled by his recovery.

But who am I to say that this is how the game will be on release?
 
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#50
It's sad but my greatest competitive concerns aren't gameplay mechanics but rather what the tournament-standard rules will be. Specifically that they'll be too restrictive/limited. A low stock count since it took too long to kill on day 1; banning characters; a small stage list (the known count is what, 80+ by now?). Any time something is removed the game becomes less fun, and why should I go to a tournament for a game that's not fun?
 

Teeb147

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#51
[...]
The game as it's shown currently hyperpolarizes having a good recovery due to the rather drastic nerfs to airdodging offstage as a recovery mixup. It's pretty obvious when watching MKLeo play Sonic. Deep edgeguards are meta when there's hardly any counterplay to mashing buttons in someone's face offstage, and the fact Sonic actually has a high recovery that isn't immediately suicide also is gamechanging.

I'm also not particularly a fan of nerfing shield drop to 11 frames, but especially given jumpsquat is now universally 3 frames, it basically means the real defensive neutral meta boils down to F-air oos. So we're back to Marth being insane again for potentially the wrong reasons.

Likewise Ganon sucks since he neither has a really fast F-air oos to abuse consistently for defense, nor does he have a strong recovery to enable stable survivability. [...]
Really good points, for the current build. Didn't think of all that. Ganon's n'air is super good tho, hits low too. Are you sure shield drop is slower? I could've sword I saw faster ones.
- if you're right I'm guessing there's going to be a lot of plain jumping out of shield (besides marth, etc). Jump is fast now so it'll be a good option, but some characters gonna have more of an advantage than others.. depending on options in the air. Alternatively, it might just mean less shielding in general, at least for most characters. There's also learning to parry too tho.
 
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A2ZOMG

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#52
Really good points, for the current build. Didn't think of all that. Ganon's n'air is super good tho, hits low too. Are you sure shield drop is slower? I could've sword I saw faster ones.
- if you're right I'm guessing there's going to be a lot of plain jumping out of shield (besides marth, etc). Jump is fast now so it'll be a good option, but some characters gonna have more of an advantage than others.. depending on options in the air. Alternatively, it might just mean less shielding in general, at least for most characters. There's also learning to parry too tho.
There's quite a few people who have counted the frames on available video footage to say that shield drop is 11 frames in this game. You don't have to believe me specifically, but people are determined even now to figure out the game.

Ganon N-air, if we go by the hitbox in Smash 4, is probably okayish against taller characters as a rising aerial. However the 2nd hit is absolutely horrible at hitting shorter characters, and as a multihit aerial would be vulnerable to release based PS. D-air strictly is better at hitting shorter characters and is also considerably more rewarding and better at high profiling things like grabs and ground pokes on its startup animation, hence why I suggested it.
 

Teeb147

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#53
There's quite a few people who have counted the frames on available video footage to say that shield drop is 11 frames in this game. You don't have to believe me specifically, but people are determined even now to figure out the game.

Ganon N-air, if we go by the hitbox in Smash 4, is probably okayish against taller characters as a rising aerial. However the 2nd hit is absolutely horrible at hitting shorter characters, and as a multihit aerial would be vulnerable to release based PS. D-air strictly is better at hitting shorter characters and is also considerably more rewarding and better at high profiling things like grabs and ground pokes on its startup animation, hence why I suggested it.
You should take a look at his nair in ultimate, it's so much better now. If I find back the videos I saw of it I'll post them, don't know which ones they were now.
Just to be sure, you mean shield dropping from a platform right? not 'dropping' shield. I just wanna make sure and then sometime if I feel like it I'll look it up to see more.
 
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Gimj

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#54
The lack of [grab] combos/hitstun. There seems to be conflicting reports on the hitstun, but many say it is lower. I want this game to be combo-rich without being too linear and flowcharty. I want creative combos to be as common as possible.

The balloon knockback.
Goes in tandem with the above. I hope it doesn't prevent combos that would be possible had it not existed.

Approaching and offensive pressure being discouraged or not a very effective tactic.

Lack of shieldstun. I want to be able able to contest shields with something other than grabs. I want to be able to punish defensive players with sheer offense, not submit to them.

Not being much more of a spectacle than Smash 4. Hopefully this game is fast paced and exciting enough to warrant people being interested for years to come. I don't want it to fall off like Smash 4.
 

William5000000

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#55
I like this idea. Another one I was thinking of could be not Star/Screen (just one ofc) KO on a fighter's last stock or when only a set out of time (e.g. last 30 seconds of a timed match) is remaining.
The ideal thing (which I'm not particularly fond of but willing to accept) with only Star KOs/Screen KOs occurring would be to count them as already KO'd as soon as they cross the blast zone instead of waiting for the animation to finish.
 

Katy Parry

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#56
Guys, the “ballon” knockback isn’t going to change. Or at the very least, removed. Sakurai started he wanted to do it in Smash 4.

This doesn’t prevent combos imo. It suggests early percent combos are a thing, like they are in Melee, but now you cannot combo someone to death. That’s not an inviting atmosphere and trust me, I get your view, I think. But I believe he’s trying to shake it up just enough to where everything has to be relearned, without having to make a new game from the ground up It just seems it’s more imperative to combo with the right moves, opposed to Melee, where typically a lot of different avenues can be taken. Too many for a new player to grasp the concept of the game.
 

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#57
But that's missing the point. My point is that, even for competitive play, I'd argue that the setting should be Random. This isn't about what I want or what you want. I find it healthy for tournaments.
Randomness is never healthy for competitive play.

To this day you still have OG ST players upset that there are random stun values attached to moves. And if both players throw on the same frame the game basically does a coin flip for who gets the throw.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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#58
Randomness is never healthy for competitive play.
Wrong. I used to believe this, but it turns out that there are many kinds of random, and it greatly depends on where the randomness is applied. In this case, how a character dies off the top is not an aspect of the game that the players are entitled control over. If you're doing something that "needs" a fast/slow death off the top, you're welcome to roll the dice, which is what makes it an interesting decision. It stops being an interesting decision if you lock it down to one behavior.
 

William5000000

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#59
Wrong. I used to believe this, but it turns out that there are many kinds of random, and it greatly depends on where the randomness is applied. In this case, how a character dies off the top is not an aspect of the game that the players are entitled control over. If you're doing something that "needs" a fast/slow death off the top, you're welcome to roll the dice, which is what makes it an interesting decision. It stops being an interesting decision if you lock it down to one behavior.
Just like tripping was an 'interesting' decision in "Smash Brawl"? Main reason why that game died out, in terms of playing competitively. And I have a feeling the top KO RNG is one of the reasons why "Smash 4" is slowly dying out.
 
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Mr. Oshawott

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#60
Wrong. I used to believe this, but it turns out that there are many kinds of random, and it greatly depends on where the randomness is applied. In this case, how a character dies off the top is not an aspect of the game that the players are entitled control over. If you're doing something that "needs" a fast/slow death off the top, you're welcome to roll the dice, which is what makes it an interesting decision. It stops being an interesting decision if you lock it down to one behavior.
Agreed. Competitive matches would get stale fast if there isn't some degree of randomness present to give losing players a chance to turn the tide in their favor.
 

William5000000

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#61
Agreed. Competitive matches would get stale fast if there isn't some degree of randomness present to give losing players a chance to turn the tide in their favor.
Pfff! You might as well embrace "Smash Brawl" too and just ignore all the other "Smash" games that don't have 'some degree of randomness'.

My statement stands. The way things are going, especially with the disagreement on the top KO consistency, I honestly think the iconic Star KOs/Screen KOs only occurring (counting them as already KO'd after crossing the blast zone) in "Smash Ultimate" have no future. That's how it's currently looking for me.

I even made a thread about it, if anyone wants to read it.
https://smashboards.com/threads/doe...nic-star-kos-screen-kos-have-a-future.455773/
 
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xpnc

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#62
The balloon knockback is a bit concerning for combo potential. I hope it's either toned down or not as big a deal as it seems to be. I would really hate for the Ultimate Smash game to not have proper combos.
 

ZeroSoul

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#63
The most concerning thing for me is the balance, I know they said they're going to upgrade the balance and all, but Smash doesn't have the best track record with it, Smash 4 launched with insanely busted characters like launch :4diddy: and :4sheik: and while the patches addressed many things, they neglected certain bottom tiers (:4jigglypuff::4dedede:) or didn't help them enough (:4zelda::4ganondorf:) and we still ended up with this massive viability gap between the top and bottom tiers, the difference between characters like :4bayonetta2: and characters like :4ganondorf: is like night and day, they certainly could have done a better job. I'm worried we'll get something like that again where the patches address some things but won't fix enough, and we'll end up with another Smash 4-esque level of balance where the balance is noticeably better than the previous installments but wasn't that great by itself and had so much room for improvement.
 

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#64
You should take a look at his nair in ultimate, it's so much better now. If I find back the videos I saw of it I'll post them, don't know which ones they were now.
Just to be sure, you mean shield dropping from a platform right? not 'dropping' shield. I just wanna make sure and then sometime if I feel like it I'll look it up to see more.
Shield drop is simply the act of releasing shield.

Platform drop oos is not the same as that.

Ganon does benefit from universal land lag reductions, but I don't think this makes him much better at walling people in the current meta where the threat of run-cancel tilts and such is a constant threat. If you're going to be keeping people out as Ganon, you'd probably go for B-air/F-air in the first place. More importantly though, none of Ganon's aerials are likely consistent as oos options unless he's against taller characters, meaning on defense he's forced to guess and does not have easy ways of resetting neutral when out of his comfort zone.

Overall Ganon is inevitably going to be outmaneuvered by design of his mobility, hurtbox, and blindspots, and he still suffers from having a lack of seriously good close range moves unless the actuall hitbox of N-air was buffed considerably. But even before that, his recovery is obviously the number one thing that cripples him in the current game and alone would considerably hurt his viability.
 
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TheBuzzSaw

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#65
Just like tripping was an 'interesting' decision in "Smash Brawl"? Main reason why that game died out, in terms of playing competitively. And I have a feeling the top KO RNG is one of the reasons why "Smash 4" is slowly dying out.
Look, if you're gonna engage in this discussion, you have to do so with some degree of intellectual honesty. Keep the strawmen outta here. My position is not that "more random = better game". Far from it. I'm disputing the absolutist position that "all random is bad" and/or "zero random = perfect game".

Since you brought it up, tripping did not expose an interesting decision. It simply put you at risk for daring to dash, which is like 80% of combat.

Ceiling KO RNG is killing Smash 4? Citation needed. How many matches this year were last stock last hit situations where ceiling KO RNG determined the winner?

Are you going to institute a ban on Luigi, G&W, and Peach?
 

William5000000

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#66
Look, if you're gonna engage in this discussion, you have to do so with some degree of intellectual honesty. Keep the strawmen outta here. My position is not that "more random = better game". Far from it. I'm disputing the absolutist position that "all random is bad" and/or "zero random = perfect game".

Since you brought it up, tripping did not expose an interesting decision. It simply put you at risk for daring to dash, which is like 80% of combat.

Ceiling KO RNG is killing Smash 4? Citation needed. How many matches this year were last stock last hit situations where ceiling KO RNG determined the winner?

Are you going to institute a ban on Luigi, G&W, and Peach?
Believe what you want. I'm calling it right now. Top KO consistency HAS no future in "Smash Ultimate", and it looks like I'm going to be right. That's all there is to it. End of discussion. :/
 
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TheBuzzSaw

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#67
Believe what you want. I'm calling it right now. Top KO consistency HAS no future in "Smash Ultimate", and it looks like I'm going to be right. That's all there is to it. End of discussion. :/
KO consistency has no future? So it'll be random forever?
 
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#68
The most concerning thing for me is the balance, I know they said they're going to upgrade the balance and all, but Smash doesn't have the best track record with it, Smash 4 launched with insanely busted characters like launch :4diddy: and :4sheik: and while the patches addressed many things, they neglected certain bottom tiers (:4jigglypuff::4dedede:) or didn't help them enough (:4zelda::4ganondorf:) and we still ended up with this massive viability gap between the top and bottom tiers, the difference between characters like :4bayonetta2: and characters like :4ganondorf: is like night and day, they certainly could have done a better job. I'm worried we'll get something like that again where the patches address some things but won't fix enough, and we'll end up with another Smash 4-esque level of balance where the balance is noticeably better than the previous installments but wasn't that great by itself and had so much room for improvement.
Patch updates definitely concern me beyond whether we get official patch notes. It seems I neglected to talk about this in the OP. In Smash 4, I assume the bulk of updates made were on characters they get the most For Glory data from. Poor Win/lose ratios. I'm talking pretty much the entire Fire Emblem cast, Charizard, Pretty Link but not Puny Link, and Mewtwo whom a lot of people got a free copy of. Nobody's playing Jigglypuff? Not enough data for buffs. While I'm certain many decisions were informed by tournaments - probably every nerf ever made, I worry a lot of buffs were just a formality to confirm they know how bad these guys are doing. Buffs targeting all the moves that don't see use which I bet they also have data for.

I don't envy being in a position to balance a ~70 character roster. But I am hoping they'll take some avenues of feedback that aren't steeped in For Glory data. The feedback they asked for from the invitational players is certainly interesting, maybe that's the start of a more hands-on approach to the game's balance.
 

William5000000

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#69
KO consistency has no future? So it'll be random forever?
Unless there's an announcement about that, I currently see that being unchanged from "Smash 4". Of course, that could change later from the footage shown. I don't have high hopes for it, though. I'd love to be wrong about that.

Here is my opinion, whether you (or others) agree or not. I think the iconic Star KOs/Screen KOs only occurring (WITHOUT upper Blast KOs) should count as already KO'd as soon as they cross the blast zone. Personally, I'm not fond of that idea, but I'm willing to accept that if that's the case. They may be random, but at least they'll be consistent with that change.

Hope this finally settles the discussion. And sorry if I caused trouble. I meant no harm.
 
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#70
My only real concern is that they’re going to focus so hard on weakening defensive options that the game becomes an all-out mindless aggro fest like Dragon Ball FighterZ and Street Fighter V.

That said, I don’t actually think this will happen, but it is something to be mildly concerned about.
I hope Jigglypuff’s weight is slightly increased, just enough so that most combos work on her. This is a problem in most Smash games, but it’s most problematic in Melee. Most Melee players have to practice new often very different setups for one character, this can slower training and makes Jigglypuff a pain to play against.

I like Puff and that’s why I really want a fix.
You want to make Jigglypuff worse? It’s bad enough she goes flying when the wind blows too hard, she doesn’t need to be comboed to hell, too.

If they increased her weight, they’d have to make Kirby and Rosalina and all of the featherweights heavier.
 

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#71
Sakurai shook his head at the Bayonetta combos during the E3 tournament, so nerfs are probably incoming. /SakuraiTranslator
 

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#72
The main thing i'm worried about in terms of this games compeitiveness is Bayo herself, even if she gets nerfed she'll still have Bat Within and Witch time and probably the ladder combos to some extent.
 

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#73
No more gratuitous RNG.

Not every dtilt needs a 25% chance of randomly tripping someone.

Not every kill off the top needs to randomly star KO.
also, balance your goddamn game. Looking at you, Bayo.
 

Xigger

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#74
If you take a look at all of the 1v1 changes in gameplay, then you'd expect the star KOs to disappear altogether.

Or a middle ground, like the star KO immediately ending before another player's KO occurs. Then the RNG element won't matter so much.
 

Acrete

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#75
Aside from tweaking the knockback.

I want a quality tourney mode. Both offline and online.

Matchmaking done by ping and proximity to other players.
 

ZeroSoul

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#76

This fuels my worry that the game will be like Smash 4 when it comes to balance, better than Melee/Brawl but not that great on it's own legs, I feel Sakurai should have stepped down from being the lead balancer and let someone else take over for balancing, I can't expect the game's balance to be much better than Smash 4's after hearing this. Not saying it's impossible the game will be well balanced or anything, but I don't have much faith in Sakurai's ability to oversee the balance, last game Dedede and Jigglypuff didn't get any buffs despite being bottom tier, either A. he vetoed changes for those characters or B. there weren't any planned changes for them with him at the helm, and neither of those are good signs for what I want.
 

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#77
Why on EARTH is Sakurai the one in charge of balancing?
I love the man, but it's clear he fundamentally doesn't understand how competitive Smash works.
 
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#78
  1. Increase Hitstun
  2. Increase Shield-Stun
These are my biggest worries (especially 2). The amount of hitstun seemed low and that should be increased to at least Smash 4 hitstun or a little bit more.
 
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#79
My biggest competitive concern for Smash Ultimate has nothing to do with characters. It's about stages.

The short version is that I'm sick to death of Smashville and want some variety.

The long version is that I think the Smash community has collectively gotten used to small stage lists and I'm worried there will be pushback against the hazard toggle giving us potentially 20+ perfectly good stages based on nothing more than the number. I've seen a number of comments on the internet (both here and elsewhere) unironically profess a belief that having a large number of legal stages is somehow bad for the game. Meanwhile we're on the third Smash game in a row with Smashville available as a stage and I fully intend to strike it whenever I get a chance because there's such a thing as being too deep in your comfort zone, you know?
 
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Ffamran

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#80
This fuels my worry that the game will be like Smash 4 when it comes to balance, better than Melee/Brawl but not that great on it's own legs, I feel Sakurai should have stepped down from being the lead balancer and let someone else take over for balancing, I can't expect the game's balance to be much better than Smash 4's after hearing this. Not saying it's impossible the game will be well balanced or anything, but I don't have much faith in Sakurai's ability to oversee the balance, last game Dedede and Jigglypuff didn't get any buffs despite being bottom tier, either A. he vetoed changes for those characters or B. there weren't any planned changes for them with him at the helm, and neither of those are good signs for what I want.
The follow-up tweets state that it was from an interview with Bill and Nate from Treehouse and not with Sakurai. Also, something about the way Famitsu translated the questions and answers could have created misunderstandings.

Sakurai is the director of all the Smash games so far of which Brawl was stated to be the one where he had the most extensive hands-on balancing and what a mess that was for the game and his health. Point is that it bugs me when people say stuff like Sakurai this, Kojima that, Kamiya this, Itsuno this, Antoinades that, and so on. They are the leads of their games, but they did not singlehandedly develop them which if they did, then their games would have likely been bigger train-wrecks than they were assuming they weren't canceled. Sakurai does oversee and approve of the decisions in Smash's development, but ultimately, it's also the fault of the entire development team and its collaborators, so publishers or other studios okaying stuff like Cloud or Link's designs in Smash, as well. They have to pitch ideas, agree or disagree on them, and decide what to do and so far with the main development team, every Smash game up to Smash 4 -- I'm excluding Ultimate because it's not out yet -- has had questionable and sometimes inexplicable design choices. Smash 64 you can give a slight pass because it was the first game and an early game where stuff like dumb hitboxes were pretty common, but by the time of Brawl and definitely by the time of Smash 4, they are no longer inexcusable.

When you want more range on moves like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Side Smash or Falco's Dtilt, then you change the animation. Do not add a disjoint that makes it reach further than other moves, particularly weapon moves, that look like they should reach further or on a frame 7, 19 recovery sweep that was already naturally disjointed since it used Falco's tail. The damning thing is that Capt.'s Side Smash used to be a kick in 64, but they changed it to an elbow in Melee. Now it's basically post-Brawl Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, a back fist, in Ultimate. Alternatively, make the moves faster or stronger to counter its shorter range. In Falco's case, they built off of Brawl's nerfed Dtilt that introduced sour-spots and killed its knockback instead of just building off its Melee version with consistent hitboxes and adjusted knockback for Smash 4. Fair's landing hit does not make sense at all when Falco splats onto the ground giving no indication a hit would be there unlike Mario's Dair where he spreads his arms out or the divekicks. I think the landing hit was there to cover its high landing lag from Brawl because of course a dysfunctional multi-hit move should have 33 landing frames in Brawl and that should be carried over in Smash 4, but with 1 less landing frame and doubled startup, 6 to 12, because they were able to get autolink angles to work better in Smash 4. 1.0.8's landing lag reduction from 32 to 25 should have removed its landing hit that was moved forward in 1.0.4 I believe, but nope, they kept it in because why not.

With Ultimate, there was a post by Shaya on the Marth/Lucina boards that brings up an idea that perhaps the balancing team of Smash 4's patches was separate from the main development team: https://smashboards.com/threads/can...peculation-thread.453404/page-2#post-22138375. That could be the case since Ultimate could have been in development right after Smash 4 was released or some time after it. Those people responsible for the Smash 4 patches probably are back on with the main development team or perhaps they weren't even part of the team at all and were from Namco. Regardless, their changes might not be considered or might not return for Ultimate.
 
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