Your greatest competitive concerns for Ultimate

[Zapp Branniglenn]

We're being treated to some great new features in the new Smash Bros. game. Stage hazard toggle, Battlefield forms, and a few new techniques. But I'm sure we still have many questions regarding this game's competitive viability, so what are your greatest concerns?

Training Mode - I'm worried Training Mode won't have the 1v1 higher damage values in order to properly test combos with. Smash 4's training mode lacked rage and that sounds like an equally easy oversight for them to make in this new game. Training Mode has always been lacking in features, but if it lacks the 1v1 damage modifier than it will be straight up useless for most testing scenarios and that sucks.

Patch Notes - Smash 4 had over a year of balance updates that really improved the viability of some characters and toned down defensive options. The problem was that they told us nothing about what was changed. We had to personally confirm every change in every update. I was on the team of people that confirmed patch notes in Smash 4, and I'd happily do it again, but I hope they'll have the initiative to tell us changes this time around. Splatoon 1 and 2, Pokken, and ARMS all feature patch notes and have all released since Smash 4, so I say there's hope for official patch notesin this next competitive nintendo game.

The "Balloon" knockback - This is referring to how opponents get launched and reach their destination instantly rather than with a logical sense of velocity. I feel like this was implemented to improve the pace of the game, but will probably have many adverse effects such as cut a large majority of combos that would have been possible otherwise. I don't think any improvements to character speed like we've seen will compensate for this. Though a general increase to hitstun could always go a long way.

 

[William5000000]

My greatest competitive concern is the top KO consistency.

EDIT: After some thought, I honestly think the iconic Star KOs/Screen KOs only occurring have no future (as far as consistency goes), seemingly due to the lack of attention they have gotten from the amount of people. That's how it's looking for me. Personally, if that's the case, I'd much rather use a mod (or a GameShark/Game Genie code) that has only Star KOs/Screen KOs occurring. For me, it's just not the same without them. As far as consistency goes along with playing competitively, I'll stick to playing "Smash 64" and "Smash Melee" if I have to. I refuse to deal with RNG after "Smash Melee" (tripping from "Smash Brawl" and top KO RNG from "Smash 4").

Oh, and for anyone who has something negative to say about me and my opinion on the Star KOs/Screen KOs, keep those comments to yourself.

 

[Saltloaf]

A Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle should be added in.

That's a nice idea.

 

[DaDavid]

I don't know if the balloon knock-back was intentional. I think it looks goofy as hell and this team seems to be putting a heavy emphasis of everything looking smooth and natural when performed. I could be wrong, but, even so I don't think it'll be that way in the final game since they are taking feedback and this is one of the biggest things that people have spoken up about.

Honestly I would say (and I'm sure I'm relatively alone in this) that my biggest concern is that they'll over-adjust based on feedback and end up with something that doesn't really strike that middle-of-the-road between Melee and 4 that they seemed to be going for. I know that's a big vague, but, the number of people I've seen suggest that just because they implemented stuff like directional air-dodge they may as well just go all the way with it and get even closer to melee worries me. Even Melee players have spoken out and said that this game does not need to be Melee 2 to be good, and as fun as Melee is to watch, there's no denying that the skill ceiling of that game makes it more prohibitive to enter than others. Obviously the opposite could happen too, and they could somehow end up back-pedaling and putting out a game with little less depth than Wii U/3DS, but, I don't feel that that one is as likely given the entire tone of the Direct.

 

[ssjayy]

The "Balloon" knockback - This is referring to how opponents get launched and reach their destination instantly rather than with a logical sense of velocity. I feel like this was implemented to improve the pace of the game, but will probably have many adverse effects such as cut a large majority of combos that would have been possible otherwise. I don't think any improvements to character speed like we've seen will compensate for this. Though a general increase to hitstun could always go a long way.

Agreed with this. I feel like this was added to prevent ridiculous like 5x uTilt to uTilt. Although I think combos like that look really dumb; there are other ways to approach it instead of this balloon knockback. Majority of the time they get launched too far to follow up with another attack/apply pressure.

My greatest competitive concern is the top KO randomness (upper Blast KOs), and Jigglypuff's down special. A Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle should be added in. There's really no reason not to, since the Stage Hazards toggle was added in.

Never thought of that. Love this idea.

A few of mine:
1. Allow us to run past shields again. I read that it was a bug - if that's the case I hope for it to be fixed.
2. More shield damage OR stun. Shield game is still strong but by doing more shield damage it might make punish overly defensive opponents.
3. Bringing back sweet spotting recoveries instead of these magnetic hands where they latch onto the ledge in the middle of an upB.
4. Ledge cancels: where all lag is canceled when the momentum of the character carries over to a ledge/corner/edge. For example, upBs. This is more of a bonus but it creates really cool moments and shows a lot of technical skill.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Actually being able to safely approach and safely pressure and I mean like legit pressure because you cannot do that at all in Smash 4

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I don't know if the balloon knock-back was intentional. I think it looks goofy as hell and this team seems to be putting a heavy emphasis of everything looking smooth and natural when performed. I could be wrong, but, even so I don't think it'll be that way in the final game since they are taking feedback and this is one of the biggest things that people have spoken up about.

Honestly I would say (and I'm sure I'm relatively alone in this) that my biggest concern is that they'll over-adjust based on feedback and end up with something that doesn't really strike that middle-of-the-road between Melee and 4 that they seemed to be going for. I know that's a big vague, but, the number of people I've seen suggest that just because they implemented stuff like directional air-dodge they may as well just go all the way with it and get even closer to melee worries me. Even Melee players have spoken out and said that this game does not need to be Melee 2 to be good, and as fun as Melee is to watch, there's no denying that the skill ceiling of that game makes it more prohibitive to enter than others. Obviously the opposite could happen too, and they could somehow end up back-pedaling and putting out a game with little less depth than Wii U/3DS, but, I don't feel that that one is as likely given the entire tone of the Direct.

The only thing prohibitive about Melee is that 1.) It's on a very old system 2.) There's no easy way to play people; you either have to use custom apps, go to locals, or have people come over and play and 3.) it's OLD and has years of meta development. Adding wavedashes and wavelsnding will not diminish casuals because they will nearly always lose to a competitive player anyway not to mention items and stages affects character balance anyway. In fact Smash 4 was criticized at times for appearing to have a low skill celling at times. Did you also know that buffering was not a thing in melee? Buffering is s thing now and if universal jumpsquats stay the same; there will be easier control over wavedashes.

 

[Applebutter61]

I think that keeping it so wavedashing is not really practical is fine. However, if we had complete and total wavelanding, I think this would make the game very interesting. For anyone who doesn't already know, wavelanding has, I believe, 20 frames end lag and does not let you slide off platforms.

I would also say to please tone back the balloon knockback a bit. It's kind of cool, but it could really be toned down.

Shields should be able to be pushed off the ledge.

I don't know how I feel about footstools being able to be teched. I say that if you want to change footstools, make it so that you can't just spam the jump button to do it, you would actually hit the jump button with precise timing in order to do it.

Other than that, this game looks great. The only bad thing I have heard about it is hardcore Melee fanatics crying, almost literally, that wavedashing has not (really) returned.

 

[Pirate Goomba]

Bayonetta.

 

[DT Raw]

-we need your training mode you talked about to be implemented
-def need patch notes
-def need to be able to dash or use moves past shield
-the balloon knockback needs to be fixed, and hitstun and shield stun should be increased a bit
-dash dancing is improved, but allow us to be able to change at any point in the dash with no drift, like in melee

i dont need wave dashing to be a thing, but I do want the above

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I disagree on the deaths off the top. They should stay random. If you are relying on a fast death off the top, too bad. You have to roll the dice.

 

[William5000000]

Top KO consistency (iconic Star KOs/Screen KOs only occurring) has no future.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But that's missing the point. My point is that, even for competitive play, I'd argue that the setting should be Random. This isn't about what I want or what you want. I find it healthy for tournaments.

 

[William5000000]

Top KO consistency has no future. Calling it right now.

 

[Milky2Milk]

I hope Jigglypuff’s weight is slightly increased, just enough so that most combos work on her. This is a problem in most Smash games, but it’s most problematic in Melee. Most Melee players have to practice new often very different setups for one character, this can slower training and makes Jigglypuff a pain to play against.

I like Puff and that’s why I really want a fix.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I think a high misconception of the balloon knockback is that it affects hitstun. While the fighter does get sent much faster to their destination; they still however linger afterwards in hit-stun being unable to move while falling.

 

[DaDavid]

Even among those that understand that knockback doesn't affect hitstun, I think the concern still exists that if it stays as is it will make it harder to get to the stunned player in time to follow up.

I don't know that I agree given just the information we have so far, but, I could see how it might be a problem.

 

[Crystanium]

My concern is that Samus won't be a better character. My brother suggested that Samus' dash attack probably was changed to prevent shinesparking the opponent. By doing this, Samus loses out on one of her combo set-ups. I'm hoping she'll have another way of setting up combos. Samus' z-air doesn't seem to be as good as it is in Sm4sh. I feel it was somewhat better in SSBB, only because it did more damage and the tipper could potentially KO. This was lost in Sm4sh and the damage was reduced. Z-air, of course, seems to do more damage in SSBU, but once it hits something, it won't go through. Does this mean a character like Link will be able to avoid z-air if it hits his shield first? There seems to be hope for Samus, but then when a new game is released, her best assets are taken from her.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I have another concern and it involves something I like - Echo Fighters. I'm willing to bet we'll see a ton of Echo Fighters available as post launch DLC. And if Echo Fighters do have gameplay differences, then it will be obnoxious to ask that every setup be loaded with all of them. It'll be enough money spent just to have all the DLC fighters, and I expect the Echo Fighters will really be a subject of debate regarding their inclusion.

 

[LancerStaff]

I’m less concerned and more... Pessimistic. For instance I doubt training mode will be improved, and the balloon knockback is 100% intentional according to several interviews.

What I want to see is safety on shield to be a separate value from everything else, and not this arbitrary formula crap. If they really want to balance the game for competitive play (again, severely doubt it) it’s almost necessary.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm not worried about balloon knockback at all, it more efficiently tells us what can and SHOULD work. All it does is prevent combos during the travel time, which was already very rare and generally problematic even from a design standpoint (Bayo, Pre-patch luigi, etc) The main issue will be the hitstun still.

This will make it much easier to balance and plan around, leaving room for things to slip through the cracks. Which is my primary concern (along with the training mode)

 

[DaDavid]

I have another concern and it involves something I like - Echo Fighters. I'm willing to bet we'll see a ton of Echo Fighters available as post launch DLC. And if Echo Fighters do have gameplay differences, then it will be obnoxious to ask that every setup be loaded with all of them. It'll be enough money spent just to have all the DLC fighters, and I expect the Echo Fighters will really be a subject of debate regarding their inclusion.

Why are you convinced we'll get a tone of Echo Fighters? They're just renaming something that has existing in Smash since Melee (arguably since the beginning,) why would they suddenly decide to double down on them as a source of DLC?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Why are you convinced we'll get a tone of Echo Fighters? They're just renaming something that has existing in Smash since Melee (arguably since the beginning,) why would they suddenly decide to double down on them as a source of DLC?

It's because the previous game already sold us aesthetics in the form of Mii Costumes. They probably would have loved to sell us tons of clones in the game post launch but needed a better rebranding first.

 

[DaDavid]

It's because the previous game already sold us aesthetics in the form of Mii Costumes. They probably would have loved to sell us tons of clones in the game post launch but needed a better rebranding first.

I don't know, that seems like one of those things that makes sense when you say it but doesn't necessarily make as much sense when thought through. I could be totally wrong, but, very few people are actually being won over by the idea that clones are now called Echo Fighters. If Nintendo's concern with selling us clones in Smash 4 was that people would be pissed or something, I don't think they actually believe that that's changed now that they're calling them something else. People would still see Shadow with Sonic's moveset for what it is.

Now, obviously some people would still buy that, but they bought the Mii costumes too, and I promise you those were cheaper for the team to churn out. Again, I could be totally wrong, but I truly don't think that renaming them Echo Fighters will make them exempt from the "don't expect too many newcomers" warning.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

We're being treated to some great new features in the new Smash Bros. game. Stage hazard toggle, Battlefield forms, and a few new techniques. But I'm sure we still have many questions regarding this game's competitive viability, so what are your greatest concerns?

Training Mode - I'm worried Training Mode won't have the 1v1 higher damage values in order to properly test combos with. Smash 4's training mode lacked rage and that sounds like an equally easy oversight for them to make in this new game. Training Mode has always been lacking in features, but if it lacks the 1v1 damage modifier than it will be straight up useless for most testing scenarios and that sucks.
.

It could be even worse. If both rage and the 1.2 knockback are not in training mode in Smash Ult, the departure from real play to training mode in Ultimate would be even greater than Smash 4. That is if rage is in Smash Ult which I'm still not sure about just because a character is flashing doesn't mean it's rage.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

aerial momentum not being retained through a running jump.

 

[Airplanepilot501]

Ridley

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not worried about balloon knockback at all, it more efficiently tells us what can and SHOULD work. All it does is prevent combos during the travel time, which was already very rare and generally problematic even from a design standpoint (Bayo, Pre-patch luigi, etc) The main issue will be the hitstun still.

This will make it much easier to balance and plan around, leaving room for things to slip through the cracks. Which is my primary concern (along with the training mode)

I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this... Hitstun is a direct result of knockback, correct? Hitlag is usually irrelevant. There’s grounded hitstun too but that’s also not important.

So if you travel 1.25x faster that’s 80% time taking knockback. 1.5x means you’re taking knockback for half the total time. I mean, knowing Smash, there’s probably just an animation speed multiplier on knockback animations instead of an actual mechanical change... And would likely explain how characters just stall out too.

To me, that sounds very problematic. And that also seems like why Jab combos (and similar moves like Dancing Blade) seem to be faster across the board.

 

[Mr. Oshawott]

I'm concerned of how Ridley can be overcome with his high agility and deadly attacks. I'm hopeful that at least one of his moves makes him vulnerable for even a slight moment so that the challenger can go in for an attack.

Then there's Ridley's size. How much damage can Ridley take before he is sent flying for a Star KO? I think that if he is still in the field after taking 100% to 120% damage, he's overpowered, in regards to his speed and power.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm concerned of how Ridley can be overcome with his high agility and deadly attacks. I'm hopeful that at least one of his moves makes him vulnerable for even a slight moment so that the challenger can go in for an attack.

Then there's Ridley's size. How much damage can Ridley take before he is sent flying for a Star KO? I think that if he is still in the field after taking 100% to 120% damage, he's overpowered, in regards to his speed and power.

...Ehhh. I’m not impressed. He looks like a stereotypical Melee/Brawl heavy who doesn’t really have anything.

Except he doesn’t even seem heavy, considering he died to a half charged (or what used to be half charged) Inkling Fsmash and some other things that didn’t seem powerful.

 

[Mr. Oshawott]

...Ehhh. I’m not impressed. He looks like a stereotypical Melee/Brawl heavy who doesn’t really have anything.

Have you seen Ridley's ramming and tail attacks? They're devastating!

 

[Ffamran]

Training Mode - I'm worried Training Mode won't have the 1v1 higher damage values in order to properly test combos with. Smash 4's training mode lacked rage and that sounds like an equally easy oversight for them to make in this new game. Training Mode has always been lacking in features, but if it lacks the 1v1 damage modifier than it will be straight up useless for most testing scenarios and that sucks.

Part of me wonders if the game wouldn't automatically factor that in. If you're fighting against one opponent, then it should apply the damage modifier and if you increase the amount of opponents, then it should be removed, but that's something you'd assume would happen and could happen dynamically at least in training mode. In any case, people could just send feedback about it when the game's out or when they give us the ability to use training mode in a publicly released demo or something.

What I'm most concerned about with regards to training mode is the lack of a record feature like in other fighting games. Practicing select situations like how an opponent DI's a setup or how to whiff punish a move is not easy without friends or some way to repeat or time an input for the dummy. I doubt it would happen, but it would be a blessing if training mode had a record feature. Also, viewable inputs and what would never happen is viewable hitboxes and partial frame data, startup and recovery frames, which, the partial frame data thing, I don't even remember if that's a default thing KoF XIV has or not.

 

[DunnoBro]

I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this... Hitstun is a direct result of knockback, correct? Hitlag is usually irrelevant. There’s grounded hitstun too but that’s also not important.

So if you travel 1.25x faster that’s 80% time taking knockback. 1.5x means you’re taking knockback for half the total time. I mean, knowing Smash, there’s probably just an animation speed multiplier on knockback animations instead of an actual mechanical change... And would likely explain how characters just stall out too.

To me, that sounds very problematic. And that also seems like why Jab combos (and similar moves like Dancing Blade) seem to be faster across the board.

Ahh, I see where you might've gotten confused since I mentioned Luigi. I didn't mean Hitlag, I meant travel time. Sometimes moves end so fast, with enough hitstun, they you can connect on characters before they've even reached their full knockback point.

Bayonetta's ladder combos thrive on this, especially with rage. And pre-patch luigi did similar with downthrow > cyclone, which dragged the still traveling victim to the top of the screen. In a game with even LESS endlag overall, it's very sensible to assume we'd have more of these situations. And they'd be hell planning/tweaking around, which is likely why the balloon knockback was introduced. It COULD introduce some new problems of it's own, but to me they seem simpler to fix.

At least, if it isn't just an animation speed-up like you say. Which would still enable dumb stuff, just within smaller windows.

 

[L9999]

Have you seen Ridley's ramming and tail attacks? They're devastating!

We said the same about Mac and look what he became. Ridley looks like a shoe in for low tier.

 

[dogboy678]

I agree I’m fine with increased knockback. But the knock back in that demo just didn’t make sense and really took away good chance for combos. Or like the player would have 113% damage get hit and go flying to the edge of the screen yet wouldn’t die. I was like... what?

 

[Galgatha]

I agree I’m fine with increased knockback. But the knock back in that demo just didn’t make sense and really took away good chance for combos. Or like the player would have 113% damage get hit and go flying to the edge of the screen yet wouldn’t die. I was like... what?

It will definetly take some getting used too, but according to a translation by Source Gaming of Sakurai's tweets, the knockback was intentional.

So, we will just have to work with it. Combo's are cool and all, but at the end of the day, what matters is sending your opponent right into the blast zone to win the match, combo's or no combo's. Also, we haven't experienced the entire game yet, not even had the chance to jump into training or even seen actual gameplay from all the characters yet. So, it's too early to tell if this will completely take away combo's, or if we just need to be more creative.


With Bowser Jr being my 2nd main, I can already see the potential for Mecha combo set ups being much better here in Ultimate than in Smash 4, and possibly alot earlier as well.

 

[modshroom128]

knockback, hitstun, landing lag, and kill moves all need a huge re-work. sakurai should strive to make something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAsfM4cqt1o
namco's smash games lack "fluidity" whether its momentum or physics they just feel completely off and slow. there is no way to approach or play the game the way a smash game was meant to be played

 

[Skyblade12]

I don't think we have to remove star/screen KOs to make them more consistent.

Just make the stock be removed as soon as the player hits the blast zone, like with any other KO.

 

[Galgatha]

knockback, hitstun, landing lag, and kill moves all need a huge re-work. sakurai should strive to make something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAsfM4cqt1o
namco's smash games lack "fluidity" whether its momentum or physics they just feel completely off and slow. there is no way to approach or play the game the way a smash game was meant to be played

Smash 4 was never intended to be Melee, so no, Sakurai shouldn't strive for that. If people wish to play Melee, there is still Melee.

Considering that Smash IS Sakurai's baby in a sense, I don't think we are in any way capable of telling him how his game was meant to be played.

 

[DaDavid]

Even a good chunk of Melee pros don't just want Melee 2.0 out of this. Personally, Smash at both a casual and competitive level is about not just combos, but edge-guarding as well. Smash 4 didn't really offer much of either, but this game seems to be heavily leaning towards making edge-guarding powerful again.

I would love to see some changes to hitstun before launch, but, as long as we can go off stage and punish people in the disadvantage stage for early stocks, I'll consider this a huge improvement over Smash 4.