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You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

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jaytalks

jaytalks

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ThatWasPeachy said:
Yeah, but it's not like that matters in Smash Bros, where we shoot your canon out of a cannon!

I'm actually really amazed at what Sakurai can do for these characters. Most only have around six animations to use, yet he's able to make the character really stand out. Sure, Ike is nothing like how he is in his games (he had a higher speed cap than strength cap in FE9, and they were the same in FE10), but he was able to establish Ike as a unique fighter in Smash Bros., which I think matters more than accurately representing your canon, within reason of course (Chrom using tomes would be really stupid, imo).

Fire Emblem discussion is fun guys! :troll:
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All potential swordfighters like Lucina, Chrom, Anna, and Roy all have diverse enough fighting styles to have their own unique moveset. After all, as lords or in your default class, you really only have like two distinct attacks (normal and critical hits). Maybe if you're lucky and you look different with your signature sword.

The most of moveset is made up; but they do use references when they can. This includes cutscenes and such. Which for me is the most awesome thing about Smash:
Ike's Moves - History Behind Brawl
Marth's Moves - History Behind Brawl
Marth's Moves - History Behind Melee
Roy's Moves - History Behind Melee

Sakurai and his team can make any of the possible FE characters unique. They are a very creative bunch of individuals (clones aside). More and more, I get the feeling that a lack of potential moveset is less of a barrier for potential FE fighters.
 
Diddy Kong

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JediSuperSonic said:
The funny thing is I never even had a comment against Chrom [Heck I even named a possibility of a moveset]. I was just explaining where Ike may have got his moveset from and I get called an idiot over it, not cool.
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This is what you get for arguing with GoldenY. It's not that bad if you consider that if you DON'T do it, he'll act all superiour towards you.

Ike's moves have clear reference to Path of Radiance.

-Forward Tilt is his first slashing attack as a Lord
-His AAA combo's last attack is based on his first slash attack as a Ranger
-Quick Draw is one of his criticals as a Ranger
-Aether is a literall Skill of Ike (which should logically be stronger)
-Forward Aerial is used against the Black Knight in the opening of Path of Radiance

Those are all moves taken directly from Ike's fighting style in Path or Radiance alone. Given he fights differently in Radiant Dawn, he could have a few tweaks and he'd represent the Tellius saga perfectly.

GoldenY just likes to please his little ego by telling everyone else is wrong and he's always right. Don't bother too much with this. Fact remains that Ike has the best written moveset out of all Fire Emblem Lords we had in Smash thus far. He also remains heavily popular till today, and it's clear Intelligent Systems still likes him.
 
Robert of Normandy

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Igneous42 said:
The difference here is that there is data available to prove why what happened to me isn't a reliable circumstance to base my beliefs on. If I were lucky enough for that to happen I could still look at the known statistics for lottery and see that I can't make the assumption that I would win again. In this case there is clear, concise evidence as to why I probably won't win again. Our situation is different. You have no data to suggest that Sakurai and the Smash Bros team won't once again pick the most recent main character.
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Except you have no proof your pattern will continue, just like I have no proof that my next lottery ticket will be a winner.

Another thing: the problem with your gravity metaphor is that there are other instances of things "falling": you and the building you stand on in your little metaphor wouldn't be there if gravity didn't work.
Those being what?
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On Roy: Sakurai was looking for 6 "model swap characters"(aka clones) to pad out Melees roster, since he felt the original count wasn't good enough. He had originally settled on Leif as a Marth clone, but wasn't entirely happy with the choice and went to IS for help. They showed him Roy, and Sakurai thoiught he was a better choice, noting that Roy's fire abilities helped him stand out.(source)

There's much less info on Ike. All we know is that Sakurai went to IS for a character, and they suggested Ike.
Yet the most popular, best selling series get the most reps? There is no single factor that is the end all be all but a lot of things determine which characters get picked. Sales reflects the popularity of a game to an extent as well, a game that sells well obviously will have a pretty big fan base.
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Yeah, the most popular series get more reps, which is why Pokemon has more reps than Mario, why Starfox, Mother, and Fire Emblem have more reps than Wario, Metroid, and Yoshi, and why StarFox and Kirby both have more reps that Donkey Kong, right?
My argument doesn't only hinge on the whole pattern thing though. You've countered my points with weak logic and your only argument for why it should be anybody but Chrom is opinionated.
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Actually it pretty much does. Your argument from what I've seen boils down to "but Sakurai's always done this" and "Chrom's game sold well, therefore he has to be playable!"
 
Jaedrik

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Woah, what happened here?

I really think we should strive for the ideal and potential.
That means no guarantees.
Chrom does not have as much potential as some other good choices. (Yes, 'tis the arbitrary judge I hold over him.)
He cannot believably pull of what they can in diversification and uniquefication.
 
Igneous42

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shinpichu said:
Except you have no proof your pattern will continue, just like I have no proof that my next lottery ticket will be a winner.
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Since the "pattern" has happened so far though there is no reason to assume Sakurai won't stick to the same model as it makes sense. Always have the most classic Lord (Marth) as a character every time and always represent the newest most currently relevant Lord. What reason does he have to not choose Chrom? The only reasons you've stated are that you don't like him and you don't think the team could give him a unique move set. Luckily for us making him a unique move set is not your problem.

Another thing: the problem with your gravity metaphor is that there are other instances of things "falling": you and the building you stand on in your little metaphor wouldn't be there if gravity didn't work.[/quote]

Which has zero relevancy to this argument. If Microsoft bought Nintendo we probably could see Master Chief in Smash Bros but that is obviously not happening for this installment.


On Roy: Sakurai was looking for 6 "model swap characters"(aka clones) to pad out Melees roster, since he felt the original count wasn't good enough. He had originally settled on Leif as a Marth clone, but wasn't entirely happy with the choice and went to IS for help. They showed him Roy, and Sakurai thought he was a better choice, noting that Roy's fire abilities helped him stand out.(source)

There's much less info on Ike. All we know is that Sakurai went to IS for a character, and they suggested Ike.[/quote]

It's almost like IS suggested their most timely relevant main characters or something.... Who do you think they are going to suggest if he goes to them again? Unless there is a new Lord on the horizon that they would like to have in Smash to promote the next game chances are at the very least it will be an Awakening rep and realistically it will be the main character. I see Lucina or possibly Robin/MU as possibilities but Chrom is much more the face of the game than they are and as such seems much more realistic to hope for.

Yeah, the most popular series get more reps, which is why Pokemon has more reps than Mario, why Starfox, Mother, and Fire Emblem have more reps than Wario, Metroid, and Yoshi, and why StarFox and Kirby both have more reps that Donkey Kong, right?

Once again you twist my words to support your argument. I said "Yet the most popular, best selling series get the most reps?" I never said that sales directly decide how many reps a series is allowed. If you look at the franchises with the most reps it's Mario, Pokemon and Zelda which also happen to be the top three selling franchises in smash.


Actually it pretty much does. Your argument from what I've seen boils down to "but Sakurai's always done this" and "Chrom's game sold well, therefore he has to be playable!"[/quote]

Your argument is non existent, you don't like Chrom so he won't be in is really what your argument comes down to. Every post you ignore more and more and just cherry pick what you want to argue with, most of your rebuttals come down to you saying "no" with no real evidence to back it up. I'm also not stating my thoughts as fact. I'm not arguing that Chrom being playable is a fact, I just believe that expecting anyone else to be the Fire Emblem newcomer is setting yourself up for disappointment.
 
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I'm indifferent on Chrom (though am willing to defend him when it comes to clear bias against him), and I say the pattern is pretty much a load of crock.

Neither Roy nor Ike were added because of some "latest Lord" pattern.
-Roy wasn't even going to be in Melee in the first place, and was chosen as Marth's clone due to his fire sword sticking out in comparison to other options.
-Ike was added under Intelligent System's suggestion because Sakurai saw an opportunity to make a contrasting style to Marth by playing up slow, but powerful hits.



JediSuperSonic said:
I worded it extremely poorly, I had ment to say. "I think these moves are -example here-" but I forgot the important start. I did not tend to make them seem like fact ok?

I misread your earlier comments towards Roy and had thought it was a jab at the fact that he had nothing from his game what so ever. I wanted to try to explain where I had seen the moves Marth, Ike and Roy used before. As I said above, I did a miserable job at it.

Can we let bygones be bygones now? I apologize for this entire incident. That only someone as dumb as I could start.. -sigh-... Total overreaction on my part
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Don't leave me hanging, bro. I left my hand out to shake hands and let bygones be bygones and my arm is very tired nao. :skull:


And just as a little warning, ignore everything Diddy Kong says.
He talks about how I'm bad, but he is honestly much worse than I am. Whereas I am an ass when others are an ass toward me, Diddy's just an ass in general.
Sure, he seems "nice" now, but you have yet to be on his bad side.

Which is ironic, as weed is supposed to make evry'bodah peaceful, mon.
 
jaytalks

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I don't think there is anything wrong with being a "patternist." We are all just trying to make predictions about the game. Some of them will be wrong. Some of them will be right. Does every prediction really need to be proven based on a formula or a source or even being able to prove it will happen? At the base level, a prediction's most important facet is that it is about saying the ways thing will be in the future. If I make a prediction and I'm right, isn't that more important than proving that it's possible based on whatever reasoning? We know why Sakurai makes individual choices when he tells us, but we don't know the full reasoning, because his criteria has changed over time, and he doesn't explain how each character fits his criteria.

If you were trying to predict the characters at E3, it would be better to get all three right than to pick "the most likely" scenario. Because that's the point of a prediction.

With that in mind, I would happily predict Marth, Ike, and Lucina. I have a pretty good argument for Lucina. I can restate it if you want to hear it. I think Chrom is more likely than her, and Roy is less likely than her. But there is literally no stakes in these prediction games we play. As long you comment in likelihood rather who is definitely in and not in, I think we will be OK. I give Chrom like a 75% chance at this point, Lucina a 40% chance, and Roy a 25% chance (percentages just made up to illustrate where they rank in my mind). a 25% pick still has 25% chance of happening, and a 1% pick still has a 1% chance at happening.
 
FlareHabanero

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jaytalks said:
All potential swordfighters like Lucina, Chrom, Anna, and Roy all have diverse enough fighting styles to have their own unique moveset.
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So far all I've seen was the complete opposite of what you're stating, with the irony of Roy of all things being the most distinctive. Whether it's inexperience or lack of creativity from the users creating the movesets, or the crap that gets spewed out from idiots, there is that severe lack of enthusiasm or passion. It's kind of hard to really get excited if no soul out there has made anything compelling, which is the thing to really win over hearts. So far, the words that get spoken are rather bad.
 
jaytalks

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Habanero said:
So far all I've seen was the complete opposite of what you're stating, with the irony of Roy of all things being the most distinctive. Whether it's inexperience or lack of creativity from the users creating the movesets, or the crap that gets spewed out from idiots, there is that severe lack of enthusiasm or passion. It's kind of hard to really get excited if no soul out there has made anything compelling, which is the thing to really win over hearts. So far, the words that get spoken are rather bad.
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I don't know what you're looking for in movesets, but I think most of the ones for new FE characters have been very different from each other, and have been for the most part true to their characters. It takes a lot of passion to write a full moveset that has no effect on the game or the characters chances. As long as the sword attacks are unique, it's just a matter of personal preference on what you look for in a character. If you feel that way, I think you should comment on the ones you see and point out your problems with it, even if you give just one example.

I personally see there being less of a point in creating unique moves in exchange for not representing in-game mechanics.
 
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Translation: "I choose not to give a damn, so I'm just going to say people are uncreative and unenthused idiots to make it seem like it's their fault."
 
Curious Villager

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*Looks at Habanero and Golden mirror talking at each other*

And this is why the endless Fire Emblem discussions are still better than the endless cutting discussions.
 
Jaedrik

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Igneous42 said:
Since the "pattern" has happened so far though there is no reason to assume Sakurai won't stick to the same model as it makes sense. Always have the most classic Lord (Marth) as a character every time and always represent the newest most currently relevant Lord. What reason does he have to not choose Chrom? The only reasons you've stated are that you don't like him and you don't think the team could give him a unique move set. Luckily for us making him a unique move set is not your problem.

Another thing: the problem with your gravity metaphor is that there are other instances of things "falling": you and the building you stand on in your little metaphor wouldn't be there if gravity didn't work.

Which has zero relevancy to this argument. If Microsoft bought Nintendo we probably could see Master Chief in Smash Bros but that is obviously not happening for this installment.

On Roy: Sakurai was looking for 6 "model swap characters"(aka clones) to pad out Melees roster, since he felt the original count wasn't good enough. He had originally settled on Leif as a Marth clone, but wasn't entirely happy with the choice and went to IS for help. They showed him Roy, and Sakurai thought he was a better choice, noting that Roy's fire abilities helped him stand out.(source)

There's much less info on Ike. All we know is that Sakurai went to IS for a character, and they suggested Ike.

It's almost like IS suggested their most timely relevant main characters or something.... Who do you think they are going to suggest if he goes to them again? Unless there is a new Lord on the horizon that they would like to have in Smash to promote the next game chances are at the very least it will be an Awakening rep and realistically it will be the main character. I see Lucina or possibly Robin/MU as possibilities but Chrom is much more the face of the game than they are and as such seems much more realistic to hope for.

Yeah, the most popular series get more reps, which is why Pokemon has more reps than Mario, why Starfox, Mother, and Fire Emblem have more reps than Wario, Metroid, and Yoshi, and why StarFox and Kirby both have more reps that Donkey Kong, right?

Once again you twist my words to support your argument. I said "Yet the most popular, best selling series get the most reps?" I never said that sales directly decide how many reps a series is allowed. If you look at the franchises with the most reps it's Mario, Pokemon and Zelda which also happen to be the top three selling franchises in smash.

Actually it pretty much does. Your argument from what I've seen boils down to "but Sakurai's always done this" and "Chrom's game sold well, therefore he has to be playable!"

Your argument is non existent, you don't like Chrom so he won't be in is really what your argument comes down to. Every post you ignore more and more and just cherry pick what you want to argue with, most of your rebuttals come down to you saying "no" with no real evidence to back it up. I'm also not stating my thoughts as fact. I'm not arguing that Chrom being playable is a fact, I just believe that expecting anyone else to be the Fire Emblem newcomer is setting yourself up for disappointment.
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There's no reason to assume Sakurai WILL stick to the same model, it does not make sense. Explain to me the conventions that govern the fact that it somehow makes sense. It is no deep rooted tradition. I do not pretend to know what reason he has not to choose Chrom, but I can think of a few, namely those such as Anna or Tiki. Personally, I believe full well the team could create a unique moveset, but the ceiling on uniqueness for Chrom is low by nature due to his comparative similarities to the other lords, his potential is severely hampered. If we're somehow going by patterns, as you are, then it should be an indication that Sakurai follows the game similarities somewhat while allowing deviance, his average deviance, in my opinion, is not enough to warrant Chrom's already low potential uniqueness. And lucky for me, people here making a unique moveset for Chrom is no indication of what could, supposedly 'realistically' as you all put it, happen.

I don't know about his gravity metaphor, but wouldn't it be right to assume that gravity had previously existed, allowing for the construction of him and the building, for the sake of the discussion?

Your talk of Roy further fuels my evidence. None of you could have theory-crafted such things before they actually happened, our speculation is by no means guaranteed. No one 'saw it coming', as it were.
One of the greatest crimes of some historians is that they view events as inevitable, with no good evidence for the causal relationship.
We NEVER know what Sakurai might do in the end, to suggest that you can comprehend Sakurai-san due to a few corollaries that are weak in of themselves (I can't be bothered to calculate the R^2 value of reps vs sales and everything, but I'm sure it's not what you're hoping for :p), does great dishonor to his enigmatic genius :estatic:

Like Ike, another GREAT example, Sakurai, very 'realistically' mind you, could have easily went to IS again, and you don't know what IS may say. Heck, they could say Anna! She's certainly got a lot going for her. Just because YOU cannot see it, just because you think it's not realistic does not mean it will happen. They have a history of doing odd things in different directions, who is to say that they will most certainly not make another and throw everyone off? What then? The folks like you would just find another way to do the same exact thing of historical review to support whatever character you wish. We've seen joke examples plenty of times before, this is just a much more accepted one.
I, for example, think it is entirely possible for Anna to be in the next Smash, and that NONE of their moves can be predicted (see, even these FE examples, we don't even know the dialogue between IS and Sakurai, and further examples such as WFT, Wolf (which was to my knowledge relatively unrequested, but LOGICAL or whatever), Villager etc.). Will she? We will have to see.
 
FlareHabanero

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Ho Yay in a Fire Emblem thread is abnormally fitting...

Which of course reminds me of this one quote Micaiah once stated.
Micaiah said:
Lord Ike: Leader of the Greil mercenaries, "Hero" of the Crimean liberation, and father of Sothe's children...
Click to expand...
 
Robert of Normandy

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Igneous42 said:
Since the "pattern" has happened so far though there is no reason to assume Sakurai won't stick to the same model as it makes sense. Always have the most classic Lord (Marth) as a character every time and always represent the newest most currently relevant Lord. What reason does he have to not choose Chrom? The only reasons you've stated are that you don't like him and you don't think the team could give him a unique move set. Luckily for us making him a unique move set is not your problem.

Another thing: the problem with your gravity metaphor is that there are other instances of things "falling": you and the building you stand on in your little metaphor wouldn't be there if gravity didn't work.
Click to expand...
Which has zero relevancy to this argument. If Microsoft bought Nintendo we probably could see Master Chief in Smash Bros but that is obviously not happening for this installment.


On Roy: Sakurai was looking for 6 "model swap characters"(aka clones) to pad out Melees roster, since he felt the original count wasn't good enough. He had originally settled on Leif as a Marth clone, but wasn't entirely happy with the choice and went to IS for help. They showed him Roy, and Sakurai thought he was a better choice, noting that Roy's fire abilities helped him stand out.(source)

There's much less info on Ike. All we know is that Sakurai went to IS for a character, and they suggested Ike.[/quote]

It's almost like IS suggested their most timely relevant main characters or something.... Who do you think they are going to suggest if he goes to them again? Unless there is a new Lord on the horizon that they would like to have in Smash to promote the next game chances are at the very least it will be an Awakening rep and realistically it will be the main character. I see Lucina or possibly Robin/MU as possibilities but Chrom is much more the face of the game than they are and as such seems much more realistic to hope for.

Yeah, the most popular series get more reps, which is why Pokemon has more reps than Mario, why Starfox, Mother, and Fire Emblem have more reps than Wario, Metroid, and Yoshi, and why StarFox and Kirby both have more reps that Donkey Kong, right?

Once again you twist my words to support your argument. I said "Yet the most popular, best selling series get the most reps?" I never said that sales directly decide how many reps a series is allowed. If you look at the franchises with the most reps it's Mario, Pokemon and Zelda which also happen to be the top three selling franchises in smash.


Actually it pretty much does. Your argument from what I've seen boils down to "but Sakurai's always done this" and "Chrom's game sold well, therefore he has to be playable!"[/quote]

Your argument is non existent, you don't like Chrom so he won't be in is really what your argument comes down to. Every post you ignore more and more and just cherry pick what you want to argue with, most of your rebuttals come down to you saying "no" with no real evidence to back it up. I'm also not stating my thoughts as fact. I'm not arguing that Chrom being playable is a fact, I just believe that expecting anyone else to be the Fire Emblem newcomer is setting yourself up for disappointment.[/quote]

Jesus christ man, fix up them quotes.
 
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