You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

[Robert of Normandy]

Then, yeah, corn > Chrom.

 

[Hong]

Corn on the cob.

Why not both?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Jill > Lyn > Lucina > Anna > Hector > Astrid > Titania > Raven > Ashnard (yeah I know, but hey I'm a fan) > Sakurai's Cat > Robin (sorry, Hong) > The 3-13 Archer > Batta the Beast > Oliver > Valtome > Roy > Ike's shoulder pad boiled leather armor plate > Chrom.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Cain = Abel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything else in existence.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Cain = Abel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything else in existence.

This man is the truth

 

[Rabbattack]

Why should we replace Ike?
Why must we believe in some imaginary criteria made up by fans?
Why must we forge a pattern over one event?
Why is Ike suddenly on par with the easily disposable Roy?

Roy is just as disposable as Ike? >_<

 

[Rabbattack]

Tiki>Robin>Anna>Everyone Else>Chrom

Vincent&Victor>Robin>Chrom>Ike>Roy>Eirika>Lucina

 

[FlareHabanero]

Roy is just as disposable as Ike? >_<

That's what I'm asking you.

Why is Ike as easily disposable as Roy?

I don't see such a strong reason to scrap him.

 

[Rabbattack]

That's what I'm asking you.

Why is Ike as easily disposable as Roy?

I don't see such a strong reason to scrap him.

Although Ike is a little less disposable due to him being different than Marth, though they could change Roys moveset. Not that I want those two.

 

[Hong]

I don't see such a strong reason to scrap him.

They've done worse.

 

[FlareHabanero]

They've done worse.

The worst thing they've scrapped was Board the Platforms form what I've seen.

 

[Hong]

The worst thing they've scrapped was Board the Platforms form what I've seen.

I would sacrifice Ike and the majority of the newcomers if it meant making Brawl a good game.

How fortunate we are to have fans so passionate to not only remedy Brawl's shortcomings, but deliver an at-least-passable Ike.

 

[Rabbattack]

Robin/Tactician/MU/My Unit/Avatar, how many names does this guy need?

 

[Pacack]

The worst thing they've scrapped was Board the Platforms form what I've seen.

Mewtwo.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Mewtwo.

I don't get it...

 

[Hong]

I don't get it...

I assume he means the absence of Mewtwo in Brawl would be worse than the absence of Ike in SSB4.

Even then, it's not even in the same ballpark of removal of hitstun, the partial removal of gravity, immensely ****ed up ledges, MASSIVE bugs like infinitely-jumping Bowser which players found in like an hour of playing, and the horrible gameplay that character like Metaknight brought to the table.

They have done a lot worse things than the replacement of a character they had not need to replace, especially if they basically rebundled the idea as newer character all-together. It would be unnecessary, at worse.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I assume he means the absence of Mewtwo in Brawl would be worse than the absence of Ike in SSB4.

Even then, it's not even in the same ballpark of removal of hitstun, the partial removal of gravity, immensely ****ed up ledges, MASSIVE bugs like infinitely-jumping Bowser which players found in like an hour of playing, and the horrible gameplay that character like Metaknight brought to the table.

They have done a lot worse things than the replacement of a character they had not need to replace, especially if they basically rebundled the idea as newer character all-together. It would be unnecessary, at worse.

Saying Brawl was a downgrade is like saying yellowfin tuna have yellow fins. It's like, Captain Obvious alert.

Though I was more so talking more so removed modes or characters.

Also who's to say we can't just bring back Ike and adjust him to be a better designed character?

 

[Hong]

Saying Brawl was a downgrade is like saying yellowfin tuna have yellow fins. It's like, Captain Obvious alert.

Though I was more so talking more so removed modes or characters.

Also who's to say we can't just bring back Ike and adjust him to be a better designed character?

So obvious, is your claim, though somehow you mention the removal of a mode I had completely forgotten about before way worse things that have happened, including removals.

Attempted smugness aside, of course they can adjust Ike to be a better designed character. We actually have a proper development staff this time. An intelligent staff, especially the one that has displayed the creativity we have seen thus far, can make Ike something fierce like nothing we have seen before. Easily. My post never stated that the replacement of Ike was my desired outcome, so much as my prediction. After seeing what they have done with Bowser and Zero Suit Samus, I know what they are capable of.

I suspect that the desire to have new characters, especially from the smash hit Awakening, will have them take the path of least resistance. It is merely a prediction that Marth and Chrom is the most likely Fire Emblem representation. It is a prediction that they will take the trade-off of having someone new at the cost of veteran fighter.

There are a number of other outcomes I would prefer, but this is simply what I am expecting. I don't weigh personal wants and needs into my predictions for the final roster, and I know full well I can be caught off-guard, like I were with Wii Fit Trainer. If we get someone like Robin or Anna, that would be awesome.

 

[Rabbattack]

Still, Ike is old news.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Still, Ike is old news.

You just don't like Ike do you... huh. Legitimate question though, have you played FE9, or at least 10? It's truly show how great a character Ike is.

His up and side special are even in the game, showing that Sakurai used source material when creating him. (If only they gave him the Ragnell Projectile). Ike isn't that old The only FE games since Brawl were the Marth remakes for the DS and Awakening. Unlike, from Melee to Brawl, where it was FE7 to FE10. So Roy had it worse with 7 protagonists in the way (Lyn, Eliwood, Hector, Ephraim, Eirika, Ike, and Micaiah) compared to Marth (already represented), Chrom, Lucina, and Robin. Chrom is bland and unoriginal, Lucina while a fantastic character in Awakening can't really separate herself from Marth in terms of playstyle.

Ike's biggest competition is Robin, and I know FE is more than worthy to have 3 reps. We were even supposed to have 3 in Brawl.

 

[Shotguner159]

Lucina while a fantastic character in Awakening can't really separate herself from Marth in terms of playstyle.

Why not? Lordling came up with one.

That was fast >.>

Spoiler

Alright. *knuckle crack* *neck crack* It's boom time.

The idea for this moveset came to me a few months ago while playing Awakening. Lucina had proc'd an Aether, and as I saw the animation I realized that the first hit of Aether was identical to Wolf's side-smash, but with a sword.

Wolf's Side-Smash with a disjoint.

Wolf's side-smash with a disjoint.

WOLF WITH A SWORD
Marth was all about proper spacing, reacting to DI out of his wonderful grab game to land an early tip and an early kill, plus low-percent kills with his amazing edgeguard game and infamous Ken Combo. Ike in Brawl was all about slow, measured advances and reading your opponent to land a big move at just the right time. (Which is completely unfaithful to canon, but was a very interesting fighting style. I tried to play him rushdown anyway, hehe).

Lucina is intended as a straightforward rushdown Fire Emblemnier. No sweetspot on her sword, no sudden bursts of damage, just a powerful combo game and juggle game. Good run speed, good airspeed and a strong focus on keeping your opponent in the air to rack up steady damage before landing one of her potent finishers. Much inspiration is taken from Wolf, both the Brawl and P:M iteration, as well as aspects of P:M's Fire Emblem character tweaks.

With that explained, let's talk moves.

Jab - Singular. No jab combo, one hit like Ganon or P:M Charizard. It's a quick forward horizontal swipe with sizeable knockback, but not really approaching a kill or gimp move - the angle it sends people is too high for a semi spike and too low to continue combos. Think 25 degrees. It's a good spacing and poking tool slightly on the slower side of her moves, but is perfect set-up for a dash attack. Almost a true combo at sufficient damage (and thus sufficient hitstun).

Dash Attack - Lucina has a very fast initial dash, the kind that lends itself to a great DACUS (should the mechanic still exist) and transfers momentum well to a short hop, allowing her good reach with her aerials. The dash attack itself is an uppercut. Falchion starts pointed at the ground and is slashed upwards in a long stroke that ends with Falchion pointed skyward. This is by itself a powerful juggling tool and there is no good escape with DI, as it sends at a near 80 degree angle and Lucina always has a guaranteed follow-up provided her player reacts properly. It's similar in Wolf's to function and speed, but is much safer when spaced properly due to the disjoint and is thus much harder to punish on shield.

Up-Tilt or Up+A - Lucina stabs straight up. It has good reach, a deceptively wide hitbox, quick start-up and low endlag as well low knockback and growth. Good follow up to certain DI of Dash attack, can combo into itself if opponent is not paying attention and at low percents, even if they are. It sends almost directly vertically up, but not much, and is pretty much another 50/50 DI trap.

Side-Tilt or Side + A - Lucina stabs straight ahead. Amazing reach and great spacing and poking tool, pathetic combo tool. Not enough knockback to kill, too much knockback to combo. Amazing edgeguarding tool, however (one of her only options) and it can be angled. The angle it sends at is also much more favorable for gimps than her jab, sending almost exactly horizontal (so not a true semi-spike, but stuffs a lot of recoveries well.) It would knock Ike into his dead-zone, and Falco would be boned if knocked out of his Phantasm. Similar in animation but different in function to Roy's P:M F-Tilt.

Down-Tilt or Down + A - One of Lucina's few non-disjointed moves, and one of her flashier ones. Lucina stabs Falchion into the ground and uses it as a pivot as she does a leg sweep. The endlag of the move is low in spite of the animation, and the attack pops people up for a strong follow up with Fair, USmash, Utilt, FTilt or even jab. It lacks shield stun, as much reach as her sword moves and a disjoint, however, and so is pretty unsafe on block. The move must be carefully spaced and carefully used.

Up Smash - This is an interesting, double hitting move. Lucina sweeps Falcion in an arc over her head, covering the area in front of her, above her and behind her, an arc taller and narrower than Ike's own up-smash. The move continues however, as Lucina carries her momentum into a second arc, spinning a full 360 degrees to complete the move. The first hit is a weaker pop-up that links into the second, strong hit. Up-smash is good for beating spot-dodges and the strong hit has considerable shield pushback and stun, but a poorly spaced USmash can be punished with a well-timed grab right after the weak hit. It functions as a good vertical killer at above mid percents, but at high percents the weak hit sends opponents too far out at an awkward, 45 degree angle without too much stun, letting people both DI out of and react to possible follow-ups. It's a versatile move than needs to be used only in the right instances.

Side Smash - The move that started it all. Lucina slides forward a considerable distance with Falchion in front of her and parallel to the ground, smiting her foes with probably one of the most ridiculously good side smashes in the game. Safe on shield when properly spaced, good power and amazing reach. The 45 degree angle it sends at is ideal neither for gimping nor killing, but it's a potent combo finisher and good kill move at high percents.

Down Smash - A ludicrously fast move with oddly short range. Lucina rests Falchion on her left shoulder for a moment (I'm assumig she's right-handed) then whips it down in a blisteringly fast diagonal cut, the blade striking the area in front of her leg. The move does not strike behind and thus does not punish rolls like most down-smashes; it is a close range "get off me" move than can follow a spot-dodge to punish a whiffed grab. Closer to Lucina the move knocks the opponent quite far at a 60 degree angle (too much knockback for a confirmed follow-up) but at its farthest point from Lucina, the move has a strong meteor. A properly spaced DSmash can cover a ledge sweetspot and end a recovering opponent's life very early. It is of course marvelously difficult to land.

Up Air - Think Meta Knight, or P:M Wolf, but more range. A quick move with low knockback and a wide arc above Lucina's head perfect for juggle strings. The end lag on the move is low enough to allow a waveland after a shorthop in a P:M-esque environment (so not SSB4, but just a note). Can lead into an aerial finisher if DI is followed well.

Down Air - Lucina pulls her legs up to her torso and sweeps the Falchion below her, front to back, in a mirror image of her up-air. The backwards arc of the move sends the opponent at a semi-spike angle, making Dair her best edge-guarding tool and great option for covering the ledge, as well as her best ledgedrop option to gimp low recoveries. One of her laggier moves and not too valuable on stage besides escaping the juggle combos of her enemies, it is still fast enough to allow a Lucina that jumps off the stage backwards and dairs to grab the ledge with a double jump.

Forward-Air - This is the most pathetic combo move Lucina possesses, but that's because it's her best kill option. Lucina spins around in the air once, building up momentum into a sweeping horizontal swing in front of her. The power is comparable to Ike's bair, with the hitbox reaching a little farther and the move having more start-up and so requiring better timing and commitment.

Back-Air - Lucina sweeps Falchion behind her, down to up to cover a wide arc. The move is a weak hit that pops up and continues combos, good for catching opponents that DI behind her but absolutely pathetic at edgeguarding. Ledgedrop bair may actually SAVE your opponent due to the vertical momentum you provide them.

Neutral Air - Lucina does a somersault with Falchion held out ahead of her, remeniscent of Ike's Aether. The move hits in front of her twice: Once when it begins and second when it comes back around at the end of the somersault. The second hit of the neutral air is a strong semi-spike, much like Sheik's fair in Melee. Neutral Air being one of her slower moves must be timed and spaced right. The first forward hit knocks people away and does not link into the second forward hit, but can continue some combos. Nair hits behind Lucina as well.

Up-Special - This was one I struggled with. I saw the idea elsewhere and liked it: The animation is a lot like Marth's Dolphin Slash but without the kill power in the initial frames (she doesn't need it). If she strikes an enemy, however, she does not go into special fall (maximum once per airtime, needs to land again to refresh this. A second Up-B always sends Lucina into special fall.) The initial frames also have a strong windbox, making it a good anti-pressure option, a good OoS option if you could jump out of shield and a lulzy situational edgeguarding option. Name: Galeforce.

Neutral Special - Lucina concentrates with her eyes closed, as Falchion glows held in front of her, revitalizing her as it slowly heals her. Referance to Falchion's use in-game, looooong end-lag to only really make it viable to use between stocks (though with Lucina's ability to keep opponents in the air and knock them off-stage, she probably can find enough opportunities to use it.) Rate of healing: Slow but continuous.

Side-Special - Aether. Except, not Ike's. Lucina glows bright gold as she dashes a considerable horizontal distance on the ground or in the air (about 75% melee final destination) with her sword held out, similar to her side smash. She goes into special fall at the end of this move. Additionally, it must be noted that the sword cannot sweetspot the ledge, not being her hand, and so recovering Lucina must aim for a bit above the ledge in order to grab it. This makes her more vulnerable to edgeguards.

HOWEVER. If Lucina strikes an opponent, she has a window of opportunity to press B again. This instantaneously activates the Luna hit, which involves a semi-teleport behind the person faster than the eye can follow, striking with a powerful slash that is a strong meteor. Hitting with the Luna hit also prevents special fall. This makes going out to edgeguard Lucina dangerous. Additionally, meteors have disproportionate hitstun on grounded opponents that they pop up, so Aether is actually a perfect set up for a kill move, like fair. Getting past defenses indeed. This move is also hilariously safe on block because of the Luna putting Lucina behind shielding opponents.

This just leaves grabs and taunts, which I will finish later because I am late for lunch.

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

An Ike hater is among us ?

I guess FireEmblemnier said everything that need to be said.....

 

[HVDooD]

Ike is more loved overall than Marth who's more like Japan only from what i've heard.
Doesn't mean there's no room for Chrom to be added Fire Emblem deserves 3 reps, far more than lets say Starfox...
Just keep Ike pure power but a bit faster and make Chrom like Raphael(Soul Calibur).
Always wanted a swordfighter with some style you know like Don Diego/Zorro....

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Well, considering that the most likely newcomer for this series is an expy of Ike and Marth that lacks the best qualities of either, yes.

Like I said, we should get Ike, not some poser that will be unable to fill in the gaps.

You'll have your Corn and you will like it!

 

[Deleted member]

I was thinking which enemy(ies) would represent the Fire Emblem series in Smash Run.

Then, I found :

 

[HVDooD]

Seriously why can't we have all 3: Marth, Ike and Robin/Chrom?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Seriously why can't we have all 3: Marth, Ike and Robin/Chrom?

bcuz muh patternz sez fayur emblim can only has 2 characturz evar.

#troofax

 

[HVDooD]

bcuz muh patternz sez fayur emblim can only has 2 characturz evar.

#troofax

i fear it's gonna be just Marth and Chrom but gotta stay positive...

 

[DraginHikari]

At this point we don't have anymore evidence then we did before in regards to anything Fire Emblem related so anything could go at this point all the same. The only we have been able to confirm is Lyn is an assist trophy again which doesn't really assist the debate as I think even alot of Lyn fans knew it was a bit of a long shot. At this point we're only going in circles with the same Ike/Chrom/Robin/sometimesLucinaorothercharacters thing that seems to just kind of loop over and over again.

 

[Hong]

Seriously why can't we have all 3: Marth, Ike and Robin/Chrom?

Marth, Ike, and Chrom is a pretty awful way to represent the franchise.

Now, before I begin, I should state that I for one think the argument that Chrom has to play like Ike, or Lucina has to play like Marth, is silly. If you think this, you have no imagination and probably haven't played a diverse range of games. Give the designers more respect than that. I personally could have all four in the game, along with Roy, and they can all have completely different movesets and design intents. But that doesn't alleviate the problem.

The problem is if you are going to go out on the a limb to present three Fire Emblem characters and you are going to present this much fan service, you may as well do it well. From a gameplay standpoint, there is nothing special about the vast majority of Fire Emblem characters. There are other Nintendo characters who can do all the same, and more. If you are going to add a Fire Emblem character instead of someone else, you are doing it for the fans. At the very least, you can actually represent our series so much better. I'm a Fire Emblem fan and I think it would be pretty ****ing stupid to have Marth, Ike and Chrom together on a character selection screen. That is such a horrible waste of development time, especially if characters I know who could have done the same from another franchise are not present.

Marth, Ike, and Robin is totally acceptable, though.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So, how about them blue haired people, eh? Blue is an awesome colour to have on ya. Trust me when I say this.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Why not? Lordling came up with one.

I do support Lucina avidly actually, I was just bringing up the general census of what most people think. To be perfectly honest, though, While I do want her in the game, I don't expect her to be in. I would still be glad if the made it n though, just not expecting it really.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

 

[Banjodorf]

Roy is just as disposable as Ike? >_<

It's just not the case though. Ike's games were very popular in the west, is the west's only exposure to console Fire Emblem, was one of the more compelling lords, if you ask me, and is my personal favorite. Subjective, useless reasons aside, he's also still a consistently popular character, and is probably one of the more unique characters in Brawl, as the only heavy sword character. Unlike Roy, he's absolutely nothing like Marth in any way, and definitely stands out from him.

Roy on the other hand was every bit a clone, last minute addition, and hell, even he was considered for Brawl. Ike on the other hand was neither last minute addition or clone. It just makes no sense for people to put him in the same basket as Roy. Roy even has a style that might be similar to whatever Chrom will have; Ike does not.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

But a single data point clearly establishes a trend, Banjodorf. Which is why you should chuck caesium into water 'cause when you toss iron in there it doesn't explode.

 

[Rabbattack]

But a single data point clearly establishes a trend, Banjodorf. Which is why you should chuck caesium into water 'cause when you toss iron in there it doesn't explode.

What?

 

[Hong]

You know, if Chrom can be swapped to Lucina, with proper voice lines, taunts, victory ceremonies, crowd chants, and art assets, it wouldn't be so bad if we lost Ike. Lose the best Fire Emblem lord, gain an okay lord with Chrom and an awesome lord with Lucina.

Chrom and Lucina can certainly have the same moveset. She is noticeably shorter than Chrom, but that didn't stop them with the male Wii Fit Trainer. I would say the trainers have a greater height discrepancy than they do in Smash.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So, how about them blue haired people, eh? Blue is an awesome colour to have on ya. Trust me when I say this.

I don't know, but people having blue hair isn't what I'd call natural. I mean maybe if dyeing was extremely popular in the Fire Emblem universe or something, but then again what would create that blue tint? Does hair dye exist in Fire Emblem? Are there even barbershops? Also, if hair dyes were there, all that excessive dyeing would cause the hair to become brittle. Also why blue in particular? I mean why can't we have a Lord with lavender hair? Long flowing lavender hair, to be exact.

 

[loganhogan]

I don't know, but people having blue hair isn't what I'd call natural. I mean maybe if dyeing was extremely popular in the Fire Emblem universe or something, but then again what would create that blue tint? Does hair dye exist in Fire Emblem? Are there even barbershops? Also, if hair dyes were there, all that excessive dyeing would cause the hair to become brittle. Also why blue in particular? I mean why can't we have a Lord with lavender hair? Long flowing lavender hair, to be exact.

Ilyana for lord?

 

[Hong]

First character I thought of, too.

I actually liked Ilyana. I always try my hardest to make her work in Radiant Dawn, but the struggle with thunder tomes in that game is real.