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You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

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Al-kīmiyā'

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Quick question from someone who neither has played Fire Emblem nor follows this thread:

Is Chrom more like Marth or Ike?

Is Lucina more like Marth or Ike?
 

Diddy Kong

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Well that alone gives me reason to not use pair up too much.

Quick question from someone who neither has played Fire Emblem nor follows this thread:

Is Chrom more like Marth or Ike?

Is Lucina more like Marth or Ike?
Lucina is much like Marth. If you're not picking up Awakening anyway :
She is 'promoted' as Marth, but with a mask on http://serenesforest.net/fe13/img/site/chara09.jpg. She is form an alternate timeline, actually Chrom's daughter, who's dead in her time. She doesn't want to give her identity away, so imposes herself as her famous forefather: Marth.


Both Chrom and Lucina fight with the same weapon, the Falchion. Same blade as Marth uses, but reforged so it looks a little different. Lucina could therefore be a semi-clone, like Wolf or Lucas. Chrom is harder to describe from what I've seen. But early drafts for him make him look very similar to Ike. And he knows Aether, but does it differently than Ike (no blade throwing). He doesn't fight as rough as Ike, but not as sophisticated and graceful as Marth either.

Lucina is easily most like Marth. She'd be a semi-clone, no question.
Chrom could be a semi-clone of both, but could rather be seen as a Kirby / Jigglypuff variation character. Kind of in between the style of Marth and Ike, which he quite literally is.

Since Marth and Ike are the most popular Fire Emblem characters, it's likely the reason Chrom and Lucina are similar to both. Cause Ike and Marth where never in the same game besides Brawl, and technically now Awakening (they are DLC characters). Chrom and Lucina are basically reskinned Ike and Marth, but with own features as skills, and able to use Lances.

Fire Emblem is huge with it's Weapon Triangle thing, a rock-oaoer-scissor- mechanic. It's basically Swords>Axes>Lances>Swords. Hence why many are upset with having Marth, Ike and Chrom on the roster. Cause they are all blue haired swordsmen. And frankly, not even the lot of them, but the series has more to offer in style many feel. Marth uses swords primarly and only, Ike in his first game to, but in his last game he gets Axes to (Ragnell the blade in Brawl, is still his main weapon though). Chrom uses the Falchion primarly, Lances are also but a second option. There are also many more styles in fighting, as magic and bows. And units as Pegasus Riders, Paladins, Dragon Knights, actual Dragons in human form...

So yeah, Fire Emblem is quite a tricky subject. And I personally want Ike to stay cause he's more important than Chrom. He stars his own 2 games, where in one he's the real actual solo hero (Path of Radiance), the second game (Radaint Dawn) he turns up mid game and becomes the lead character again.
He also has a descendant in Awakening, who's actually totally out of place, but looks a lot like him and has his weapon. So it's clear Ike is still loved by his creators.

Marth has been in ALL Fire Emblem games since Brawl's release, so he's... definitely gonna stay. He's also the game's first character, and outside of the GBA, GameCube and Wii game(s) he appeared on every console that has Fire Emblem. NES, SNES, DS, 3DS.

In all actuality, neither Marth or Ike should be replaced by either Chrom or Lucina. But unless they take Roy, they aren't exactly exciting newcomers. The more the merrier though, so I support either after Roy, easily. Though I'd rather have Lyn, Hector or Ephraim.. Or Sigurd... See the problem? :laugh:
 

OcarinaOfDoom

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Quick question from someone who neither has played Fire Emblem nor follows this thread:

Is Chrom more like Marth or Ike?

Is Lucina more like Marth or Ike?
Lucina is easily more like Marth, and personally I think Chrom is more like Ike.
 

jaytalks

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Lucina is easily most like Marth. She'd be a semi-clone, no question.
Chrom could be a semi-clone of both, but could rather be seen as a Kirby / Jigglypuff variation character. Kind of in between the style of Marth and Ike, which he quite literally is.
From playing Fire Emblem Awakening, I agree Lucina is more like Marth. Chrom isn't at all similar to marth other than their use of swords. Chrom is only similar to Ike as in he uses the same class base archetype. There's no guarantee any character would be a clone or semi-clone. Lucina and Marth actually employ different fighting styles within their respective games, FE 11 and FE 13:

Since Marth and Ike are the most popular Fire Emblem characters, it's likely the reason Chrom and Lucina are similar to both. Cause Ike and Marth where never in the same game besides Brawl, and technically now Awakening (they are DLC characters). Chrom and Lucina are basically reskinned Ike and Marth, but with own features as skills, and able to use Lances.
Marth as DLC uses Lucina's model. In fact all DLC characters use the classes and hairstyles within the game rather than their own designs. So it's actually more accurate that as DLC characters in Awakening, Ike and Marth are reskins of other characters (along with other DLC). Even in their design, they are their own fully designed separate characters, rather than what this characterizes them as.








Fire Emblem is huge with it's Weapon Triangle thing, a rock-oaoer-scissor- mechanic. It's basically Swords>Axes>Lances>Swords. Hence why many are upset with having Marth, Ike and Chrom on the roster. Cause they are all blue haired swordsmen. And frankly, not even the lot of them, but the series has more to offer in style many feel. Marth uses swords primarly and only, Ike in his first game to, but in his last game he gets Axes to (Ragnell the blade in Brawl, is still his main weapon though). Chrom uses the Falchion primarly, Lances are also but a second option. There are also many more styles in fighting, as magic and bows. And units as Pegasus Riders, Paladins, Dragon Knights, actual Dragons in human form...
It would be great to have more weapon representation or class representation, but the problem is that the characters that we usually consider (and we assume Sakurai considers) are main characters. Out of the series 16 unique protagonists, 12 of them have used swords as their primary weaponand only four of the have not. Hector, Ephraim, Micaiah, and Celica (Hector and Celica used swords as their second weapon!). If you include the MU from FE 12 and the Tactician from Awakening, that would make 17 sword users, and 5 non (assuming you use the MU as a non sword user). So it's the FE series design.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Out of the series 16 unique protagonists, 12 of them have used swords and only four of the have not. Hector, Ephraim, Micaiah, and Celica. If you include the MU from FE 12 and the Tactician from Awakening, that would make 17 sword users, and 5 non (assuming you use the MU as a non sword user). So it's the FE series design.
Erm, I know you probably meant they didn't use them as their primary weapons, but Hector and Celica both actually used swords as a secondary weapon. Just fyi.
 

jaytalks

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Erm, I know you probably meant they didn't use them as their primary weapons, but Hector and Celicia both actually used swords as a secondary weapon. Just fyi.
actually if you take that into account, Celica only uses a sword technically as her main too then? Hector only uses sword after his promotion.
 

Robert of Normandy

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actually if you take that into account, Celica only uses a sword technically as her main too then? Hector only uses sword after his promotion.
That's what I said. The use them as secondary weapons.

Also, just found out that the guy who did Celica's DLC artwork also draws Hentai doujinshi.
Huh.
 

jaytalks

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That's what I said. The use them as secondary weapons.

Also, just found out that the guy who did Celica's DLC artwork also draws Hentai doujinshi.
Huh.
No i just forgot that she didn't start using swords as a promotion or something. which means she's also technically a primary sword user. I mean, it's in her sprite.



So that would make it only three main characters who don't use swords as one of their starting weapons.
And on the artist note, yeah, pretty interesting. They used all different types of artists for the FE lords redesigns.
 

loganhogan

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Celica uses both swords and magic in Gaiden but in Awakening there are weapons named after or dedicated to each of the lords:

Falchion (Marth's)
Alm's blade
Celica's gale
Sigurd's lance
Seliph's blade
Leif's blade
Roy's blade
Eliwood's blade
Hector's Axe
Sol Katti (Lyn's)
Eirika's blade
Ephraim's lance
Ragnell (Ike's)
Micaiah's Pyre

Celica dedicated weapon is a tome so I would relate her more to magic than swords, making swords her secondary weapon.

The My Unit is really overpowered, so I like him, but Marth, Merric, Shiida / Caeda, Catria and Ogma are easily comparable. I can't choose! Also, I haven't played Awakening, but since Awakening has this double pairing system, I doubt any Fire Emblem game to this point plays like it. If I get a 3DS, I'll pick it up though.
I hope you enjoy Awakening when you get it I really liked it. If you like overpowered characters you will really like the Avatar in Awakening too.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Recently started playing TearRing Saga. Very interesting so far, feels very much like a sort of "what if" sequel to FE. I have to say, the graphics in TRS are better than pretty much any other sprite based FE game.

Edit: Fire Emblem should totally have Lady Knights. Just sayin'.
 

loganhogan

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So upon looking up the characters in FE12 I noticed. Is it just me or do Feena and Anna look alike?



 

Hong

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Celica uses both swords and magic in Gaiden but in Awakening there are weapons named after or dedicated to each of the lords:

Falchion (Marth's)
Alm's blade
Celica's gale
Sigurd's lance
Seliph's blade
Leif's blade
Roy's blade
Eliwood's blade
Hector's Axe
Sol Katti (Lyn's)
Eirika's blade
Ephraim's lance
Ragnell (Ike's)
Micaiah's Pyre

Celica dedicated weapon is a tome so I would relate her more to magic than swords, making swords her secondary weapon.
We shouldn't really put too much weight in the way things showed up in DLC. For example, Elincia doesn't even have the crown blade of her ancestry. They simply appended her to the existing Falcon Knight class because it was the simplest route. The choices they made were entirely related to simply being able to shoehorn an existing character to an existing class, and they probably felt more cozy with Celica as a caster since there aren't many in the overall leading line-up. They don't want to design a class for her, as they did the Dread Fighter for Alm.

Celica was certainly a warrior first. She was presented as being a much more nimble sword-fighter compared to Alm. Being a warrior priestess is an integral and key part of the character and the story, and this hasn't suddenly changed. This will be the case until Gaiden is to receive a proper remake or sequel. DLC can't just canonize changes to the characters when they only picked what was convenient.
 

ZeldaMaster

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Do you guys ever wonder why Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems to get a recommendation for Ike during Brawl's development? Was Sakurai unfamiliar with Ike's character? Did he not play POR and RD? That would be quite surprising, since Sakurai seems like a huge FE fan...
 

FalKoopa

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Do you guys ever wonder why Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems to get a recommendation for Ike during Brawl's development? Was Sakurai unfamiliar with Ike's character? Did he not play POR and RD? That would be quite surprising, since Sakurai seems like a huge FE fan...
I think it was primarily because we got a ton of lords between Melee and Brawl - Eliwood, Lyn, Hector, Eirika, Ephraim, Ike and Micaiah. So he was unsure who to add, and went to IntSys for suggestions.
 

Hong

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Do you guys ever wonder why Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems to get a recommendation for Ike during Brawl's development? Was Sakurai unfamiliar with Ike's character? Did he not play POR and RD? That would be quite surprising, since Sakurai seems like a huge FE fan...
I don't think he has any reason not to.

Again, Fire Emblem only has one character that veers close to being a household name: Marth, and even he falls short. Characters who are added to Smash Bros for the most part are chosen based on what they could offer to the roster. Characters more unique within the company. Fire Emblem has only a small handful of characters like this: manaketes, Anna, Xane, laguz, to a certain extent spellcasters, etc. Everyone else, no matter how you cut the cake, are pretty typical fantasy characters without anything in the way of superpowers, barring some of the divine weapons. What I am getting at is they basically fit a Fire Emblem character to a style of swordsmanship that is believable through their personality and story. Roy and Ike are literally just about a dime-a-dozen. Aside from the Smash Bros fans specifically, the characters have such a large spread of fans. Anyone you can add that is worthy of note will be met with less recognition than even the Wii Fit Trainer, except Awakening characters because they are trending.

In summary, I think he will ask Intelligent Systems. Many of them, especially the older faces, are friends and former colleagues. Any of the development offices are pretty close to each other within Kyoto, and it would be kind of silly not to get the most feedback from them, since they probably know their fans better than Sakurai-san. We have so many characters that can effectively do the same thing, so unless our director has a very specific attachment to a particular character, I can't help but seeing him placing faith in their discretion. I think they would spit out Chrom or Lucina, and if Mr. Sakurai finds they don't work for him, they will surely have a list of good alternatives like Robin or Lyn (they are care about the international audience, after all).

As for Sakurai-san's familiarity with the series, he for sure played FE11. Can't speak for FE12, but I would be shocked if he hasn't played Awakening. Again, they pitch the game as being a good game to pick up by players old and new. What is more is that portable games are extremely convenient for his life style (unlike the console entries), and it sold relatively well for a game on that system. Basically if you play the 3DS and have ever like Fire Emblem at some point in your life, I can't see a reason not to get Awakening. Especially since the director likes changes in a formula.
 

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putting a character from FE 13 is much different that putting a stage and assist trophy or costumes for Ike and Marth. Would Roy fans just settle for an Elibe based stage and assist trophy appearance? O for Marth to have a Roy outfit? The purpose of putting an FE13 characters there would be to get people to buy the game. I believe the "will this character's make more people buy the game" criteria of Sakurai works best when you strike while the iron is hot honestly. And Awakening is the hottest game in the FE franchise right now, and baring a SMTxFE release in 2014 prior to Smash, it will be the FE characters who will be mostly likely to get people buy the game. And not us in the Smash community. But casual gamers. There is a reason why the FE Arena Ferox stage was revealed early. The game is still on people's minds.
 

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Selling really well didn't help FE7 get anything more than an Assist Trophy. Just sayin'.

Also, Smash's audience is much bigger that FE's audience, so I don't think a character from FE has that much draw to it.
 

Hong

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A shame they didn't reveal an Awakening character during the August sale. They could have still cashed in on some of the momentum.
 

loganhogan

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Maybe they will announce one when there is more information about SMT x Fire Emblem. In the trailer Marth, Chrom, and Lucina took most of the camera focus. I think maybe one of them will be the main character in that game.
 

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Maybe they will announce one when there is more information about SMT x Fire Emblem. In the trailer Marth, Chrom, and Lucina took most of the camera focus. I think maybe one of them will be the main character in that game.
Assuming the game even has an FE main character. And of those three, it would be Marth.
 

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Selling really well didn't help FE7 get anything more than an Assist Trophy. Just sayin'.

Also, Smash's audience is much bigger that FE's audience, so I don't think a character from FE has that much draw to it.
FE7 had two other releases after it prior to Brawl's development, and a third release on the way which starred Ike that was released in 2007. Fire Emblem 13 is the best selling game in the series history, most financially successful by far with its DLC, and there are no other major FE releases on the horizon other than a crossover.

And there were no other FE stages. Or FE items. There was just Castle Siege, which was for all Fire Emblem characters. The fact that they got an assist trophy over 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 is a pretty good sign. There wasn't too much for any other FE game to get.

The additive property of inclusion isn't about selling hundreds of thousands more copies of a game because of a single character. There is no way to quantitatively measure the effect of character on sales. But the best selling games have the most potential to get people to buy the game.

Not every nintendo fan buys Smash. There were 100 million wiis sold, and only 10 million copies of Brawl. This is going to be first time the series is going to be on the 3DS. Well, let's see what is an FE game that recently has sold some systems (hint: even Reggie acknowledged this). And FE is a completely different genre than Smash. It's a strategy game. Just go onto Serenes Forest and see how active the Smash Bros threads are. These are fans who spend hours arguing over support conversations and who has the best critical hit quote, but that can't seem to sustain a thread for conversation of Smash regularly other than talking about the daily photo. And that's not a mark against them. It's an FE forum fan site. But there isn't just a whole lot of crossover.

The new FE fans, who proclaim Awakening as their favorite game, have no idea what Marth's, Ike's, and Roy's stories other than their exposure in FE13. And reading maybe a little on a few wikis. New gamers are created every day, who have not played Smash in their life. Every gaming generation brings in new gamers with the release of new consoles and new games. So new FE fans who own a 3DS and that's their first console are looking for more reasons to buy Smash 4.
 

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SMT X FE's main protagonists should be Marth and Lucina. Past and Present. And did anyone else notice the strange elevation of side characters? Lilina, Caeda, and Sothe suddenly seem like a bigger deal. I was thinking they were trying to create gender balance.

Edit: Accidental double post. My apologies.
 

Hong

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Sorry. Drew parallels between blue-haired cross-dressers. :b Thought it would be funny if Awakening's "Marth" shows up and turns out to be Naoto, and everyone thinks it is her until Lucina actually shows up.
 

Jaedrik

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I believe the "will this character's make more people buy the game" criteria of Sakurai works best when you strike while the iron is hot honestly.
Thi-this is one of his criteria? I recall making reference to it at some point, but I can't find the source as to why I said it, it was the old critera Sakurai had, right? 'Cause the critera we got later from the Polygon interview had a completely different method by which Sakurai chose characters.
 

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Thi-this is one of his criteria? I recall making reference to it at some point, but I can't find the source as to why I said it, it was the old critera Sakurai had, right? 'Cause the critera we got later from the Polygon interview had a completely different method by which Sakurai chose characters.
yeah its old criteria technically. but i don't see any contradiction between this criteria and the new one, so I think of them both coexisting together. he never said he dropped this criteria. I think his criteria for this game is just an extension of his criteria 2 he previously used:

1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.
2. The character must be unique.
3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.
4. They must contribute to the game balance.

source: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/gdc-2008-meeting-masahiro-sakurai.146816/
 

Hong

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For me, after Marth and Celica the whole lord lineup looked very bleak until Ike. It was about a decade of lame characters.

Really glad Awakening didn't try to be real with the characters and aimed for a bit more flavour, though to be fair the Tellius games had more realistic characters and delivered them well.
 

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Marth is badass cause he doesn't take ****, conquers half of the world if not more, has all the ladies love him, is actually quite a great unit in FE12, and he becomes king of the whole continent.
 

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For me, after Marth and Celica the whole lord lineup looked very bleak until Ike. It was about a decade of lame characters.

Really glad Awakening didn't try to be real with the characters and aimed for a bit more flavour, though to be fair the Tellius games had more realistic characters and delivered them well.
Eliwood and Hector were lords with real discernible personalities though. You also had Hector and Ephraim be real contrasts in terms of weapon type.

As for the FE13 lords having "flavor", they were pretty bland imo, seeing as one was a retread of Ike, while the other a retread of Marth in aesthetics. And both were forgettable in terms of personality.
 
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