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Yoshi's Stage Counterpick Discussion (Discussing Snake & Lucario)
- Thread starter Mmac
- Start date
Mmac
Smash Lord
*Sigh* I'm disappointed that that this thread didn't really took off the way I wanted it to do.
I'm going to change the format to Stages, and see if that gets things going
First one is Final Destination
I'm going to change the format to Stages, and see if that gets things going
First one is Final Destination
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Just a moment, Mmac. I wanted to address something really quick.
I'd argue that the platforms are pretty much neutral, as Yoshi is at a firm advantage when he's underneath Meta Knight and a platform is in the way. It's all about who gets the low ground. As such, the match would be 4-2-3 in favor of Yoshi by my book (I don't count repeat appearances), and would also result in much more even scoring by your standpoint (making all appearances of the platforms neutral, thereby lowering Meta's score significantly).
No offense, but that is a TERRIBLE strategy. Even assuming that your timing is absolutely perfect 100% of the time, you're still being held at bay and can't possibly fight back. Unless you approach, the best case scenario is you don't take damage and don't get to do damage, and have to catch up once the stage changes. The worst case scenario is that you take damage and don't get to do anything in return.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Actually I think the Rooftops and the Basin parts are to his advantage even if he just camps in the "Safe Spot"
Mmac
Smash Lord
No discussions makes me Sad Yoshi 
Mmac
Smash Lord
I really liked discussing stages against certain characters. How can you talk about stage counterpicks if there's no one to counterpick against? It would just be a boring stage discussion thread that we've already had before.
There was actually some good discussion going on in the beginning. Idk about other people but I've been hit with midterms this and next week, or else I'd probably take the time to fix up my initial MK post... I'll get to that later sorry lol.
There was actually some good discussion going on in the beginning. Idk about other people but I've been hit with midterms this and next week, or else I'd probably take the time to fix up my initial MK post... I'll get to that later sorry lol.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Fine, I'll go back to stupid MetaKnight -_-
Mmac
Smash Lord
Should we just move on, and go back to MetaKnight on a later date?
Snake is next
Snake is next
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Lucario has the advantage on Mansion, Japes, Frigate and FD. Your best bet would be to take him to a stage with a low ceiling or small blast zone like Corneria or Green Greens.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Or we can do Lucario I guess. I generally agree (Though Green Greens is in the Banned section, which is why I didn't include it in the List)
I'm going to wait for the other people for their opinions though.
Screw it, lets just do both, Double Week FTW!
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Oh. I didn't realize you guys were doing it in any organized fashion hahaha
O well, i was just trying to help you guys out.
Hmm, I don't know what kind of snakes you're playing against, but the ones I think snake has a pretty good advantage on Battlefield. Placing a C4 on any of the bottom 2 platforms can really limit your options as it can hit you on the ground or on the platform. Really small stage, allows for earlier utilt and jab combo kills.
I honestly prefer the stage in the matchup.It's really easy to bait platform C4 with crawling, DRing backwards, and sometimes even Egg Roll, so they're not a huge concern. You would mainly have to worry about platform C4 if you're chasing Snake in the air. The good part about this stage is that if Snake is in the air, he has to do one of three things. 1] Land on the ground. 2] Land on a platform. 3] Grab the edge or just not land on the stage. I know that sounds extremely generic, but the close quarters and the architecture of this stage in particular make it very easy to force these specific scenarios. If Snake lands on the ground, it's basically a free grab as you outrange everything he has aerially except his forward air and you can absorb desperation jabs (upon landing) with dash grab. If Snake lands on a platform, take advantage of his huge size, the platform's tiny quarters and perform your favorite rising attack through the platform. Down aerials and high pressure, precision up aerials on the bottoms of their shields while they're near one of the platform edges (to push them off and force techs or double jumps) are good ideas that can really put on the pressure without putting you at too much risk. Just be careful not to rise too high because you can eat an up tilt out of shield if you don't successfully score a hit or put the opponent in a compromising position. Finally, if Snake chooses option 3, nothing more really needs to be said, right? Reset or grab gay.
The stage is quite small. I prefer it because of this, as a matter of fact. Many Snake players have not yet mastered the different spacings for the mortar slide, which don't make it terribly effective here if it's spammed too much. You're almost always in range for a pivot grab or spaced down tilts (spammed intelligently, of course). Up tilt is a bear, I'm not refuting that at all. It's a monster, but I would honestly take that risk here instead of me forward smashing fresh at 175% and still not getting the KO on Final Destination, if you know what I mean. I don't mind running this smaller risk if I can maximize my strengths in forcing opportunities for gayness on my part.
The only thing I disagree with is anything regarding Snake's jab combo. It's been long enough for people to learn how to DI out of it. Unless he catches you while you're recovering (as any character, not just Yoshi), it's understandable. However, if you're grounded and you get hit by all three parts of jab combo, you need to rethink how you DI. This is not an insult, but proper DI out of stupid moves like this is essential for survival against ******** characters like these. Now, single jab to forward tilt is a much harder combo to get out of and I don't mind saying that combo in particular is probably Snake's #1 damage dealer on this stage for good reason.
One more reason I like this stage is that, like the others I listed, beneath the stage is...nothing. No walls or more stage for teching spikes or to use as a brace against attempted gimps. Giving Snake some bad momentum here can really swing a few stock in your favor, no doubt. Unlike the other stages I listed, however, Battlefield has the remarkable trait that Snake cannot rise through the stage with his Up+B. This makes giving him bad momentum even more deadly and sets up for plenty of gimps, even if they attempt C4 recovery. Jab and dash attack at the edge are AWESOME to add some punch to your edge gimp game if grabs are too slow or if you're having trouble spotting them, as they can force bad DI underneath the stage.
I know my outlook on how to play these games isn't very...normal? The fact that I'm bad makes the ideas even less credible, but these are my convictions regarding Battlefield. It has its ups and downs, but I feel like, unlike against Meta Knight and a few others, Yoshi can maximize some pretty potent strengths without giving up too much that he wouldn't lose on other stages.
P.S. - I can't believe I forgot to mention...egg sniping on this stage is ridiculously easy and should be a core strategy at most points when both players are at maximum distance from each other. Less than 4/5 of the stage length between the players means you should stop tossing eggs and prepare to evade massive tilting.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Lucario is the one and ONLY case in which I'd say Battlefield might be the best neutral counter for Yoshi. The only possible situations in which Yoshi can safely hurt Lucario is when Lucario is getting back to the stage or when Lucario's on a platform above Yoshi. He's still not in a great position, but I'd say it's the best choice.
I'd also say Rainbow Floats is a really good choice against Lucario as well, due to Lucario's less than impressive aerial mobility (note that I said MOBILITY, not aerial game as a whole).
As for Snake, Final Destination is without question the best choice for neutrals. Any platforms of any kind are apt to make Yoshi's life miserable against Snake, and the less complicated your approach, the better. Battlefield isn't the WORST choice for Yoshi (that would be Yoshi's Story) by any means, though I wouldn't necessarily use it as a counter. The main saving grace of Battlefield is that it's small, so there's less of an approach and it takes less to get Snake off-stage, where Yoshi is at the advantage. Shiri does raise a lot of good points about it, but remember that Snakes can play intelligently and bait Yoshi players, too. There's a lot of traps that can give Yoshi a really hard time here (or on any stage, to be fair).
In terms of counterpicks, I'd once again pick Rainbow Cruise, since there is a LOT of air movement and it's not as camper-friend as some stages. Any time Snake is required to pull out his Cypher is an incredibly good time for Yoshi.
I'd also say Rainbow Floats is a really good choice against Lucario as well, due to Lucario's less than impressive aerial mobility (note that I said MOBILITY, not aerial game as a whole).
As for Snake, Final Destination is without question the best choice for neutrals. Any platforms of any kind are apt to make Yoshi's life miserable against Snake, and the less complicated your approach, the better. Battlefield isn't the WORST choice for Yoshi (that would be Yoshi's Story) by any means, though I wouldn't necessarily use it as a counter. The main saving grace of Battlefield is that it's small, so there's less of an approach and it takes less to get Snake off-stage, where Yoshi is at the advantage. Shiri does raise a lot of good points about it, but remember that Snakes can play intelligently and bait Yoshi players, too. There's a lot of traps that can give Yoshi a really hard time here (or on any stage, to be fair).
In terms of counterpicks, I'd once again pick Rainbow Cruise, since there is a LOT of air movement and it's not as camper-friend as some stages. Any time Snake is required to pull out his Cypher is an incredibly good time for Yoshi.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Ill teach samuelson a lesson at tomarrow at the next weekly. Lol
Omg halberd sucks against snake, because the angles give his fsmash retarted properties.
Omg halberd sucks against snake, because the angles give his fsmash retarted properties.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
You sure you don't mean Lylat? I don't remember any angles on the Halberd (though I could be wrong).
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
bump for mmac.
I think Nofair might be good to face Lucario on, but that is simply theorymon.
I know he gets basically a recover boost with all those platforms but eh..... he's floaty so going from platform to platform could open him up.
I think Nofair might be good to face Lucario on, but that is simply theorymon.
I know he gets basically a recover boost with all those platforms but eh..... he's floaty so going from platform to platform could open him up.
Norfair is a good counter for Yoshi on many people. The platforms allow Yoshi's Uair to be god in this fight. I'm just going to go ahead and name all the people it's good against.
Ike
Bowser
3D
Lucario
MK-- the reason here is that free fall factor. All of MKs specials do the free fall effect afterward. This allows you a great mindgame. They have that fear of falling, and that will lower the use of the whorenado and whoreloop. This will greatly influence the match. Also you have the easiest grab releases in the world here. On those top platforms either direction. Slamming them down into those platforms is an easy setup for a dair into I dsmash.
ICs
Marth
DonkeyKong
And others I can't think of... I'm on my phone in Chatt.
Ike
Bowser
3D
Lucario
MK-- the reason here is that free fall factor. All of MKs specials do the free fall effect afterward. This allows you a great mindgame. They have that fear of falling, and that will lower the use of the whorenado and whoreloop. This will greatly influence the match. Also you have the easiest grab releases in the world here. On those top platforms either direction. Slamming them down into those platforms is an easy setup for a dair into I dsmash.
ICs
Marth
DonkeyKong
And others I can't think of... I'm on my phone in Chatt.
Tony_
Smash Ace
I would say Norfair is good against Snake as a CP. Not really sure tho.
SOVAman
Smash Hero
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Final Destination and Smashville against Jigglypuff: Disadvantage.
Castle Seige: Advantage
Source: Ladder matches
Castle Seige: Advantage
Source: Ladder matches
Tony_
Smash Ace
I'm probably one of the few from MT that current the boards lol.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Mmac
Smash Lord
Those are Fake Yoshi's.
I have no idea, but there should be no reason to ban Delfino Plaza.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
What's bad about Jungle Japes and Brinstar against MK? I'm not seeing it clearly.
Edit: Ban Delfino!? I'd think Rainbow Cruise would really hurt Yoshi! I mean the MK should be able to focus on avoiding the CG for the walk-off part of the stage.
Edit: Ban Delfino!? I'd think Rainbow Cruise would really hurt Yoshi! I mean the MK should be able to focus on avoiding the CG for the walk-off part of the stage.
He also KOs everyone ridiculously early there.Every Snake I fight can rest assured that Smashville will be one stage they will never get to play against me.
I like Snake on Battlefield A LOT because he can't run away and the platforms make his shield usage quite risky. He's super easy to combo and the small main platform makes it easy to take those combos and drag him right off the stage where he's easiest to gay.
Metatitan
Smash Master
Guys whats your opinion on green greens for GnW? I mean u just run the entire time and hope they hit the bombes, if they try and dair u u can uair or egg toss up. Low ceiling means your uair and usmash kill earlier. any thoughts?
Airborne
Smash Lord
infern angelis said battlefield is even worse than smashville against snake....
bigman40
Smash Master
The stage is most of the time banned. Not only that, but GW can camp along the edge also, and spam Neutral B at you to stop the eggs.
Metatitan
Smash Master
egg spam> neutral B spam scatty. besides gw's will probly get annoyed and try and hunt u down. and im pretty sure its a counterpick stage scatty; so unless the gw knows yoshi could kick his *** on this stage they would probly ban norfair instead
bigman40
Smash Master
Nope. Most of the time I look at stages, Greens Greens is banned.
Airborne
Smash Lord
lolz... i need to ban green greens when calic plays on it.... his pika=uber ky ****.... why are there a lot of good pikas in midwest???? o.O