Yoshi's Stage Counterpick Discussion (Discussing Snake & Lucario)

[Mmac]

"AKA Where you should take your opponent for dinner ^_^"

This is a project I'm doing so that we can have detailed information on what Stages you should use against each characters, and what Stages to avoid. Right now I'm going to aim for a simple list that is community inspired, and will fill up gradually over the days

Currently Discussing: Snake & Lucario

Stage List:

Neutral Stages

Final Destination

Advantage
-MetaKnight-

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Battlefield

Advantage

Neutral
-MetaKnight-

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Smashville

Advantage
-MetaKnight-

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Yoshi's Island Brawl

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Semi-Neutral Stages

Lylat Cruise

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Pokemon Stadium 1

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Halberd

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Delfino Plaza

Advantage
-MetaKnight-

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Castle Siege

Advantage
-MetaKnight-

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Counterpick Stages

Brinstar

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage
-MetaKnight-

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Corneria

Advantage
-MetaKnight-

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Distant Planet

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Frigate Orpheon

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Green Hill Zone

Advantage
-MetaKnight-

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Jungle Japes

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage
-MetaKnight-

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Luigi's Mansion

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Norfair

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Pictochat

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Pirate Ship

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Pokemon Stadium 2

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Rainbow Cruise

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage
-MetaKnight-

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-


Yoshi's Island Melee

Advantage

Neutral

Disadvantage

Undecided

-Bowser- -C.Falcon- -Diddy- -DK- -Falco- -Fox- -Game&Watch- -Ganondorf- -IceClimbers- -Ike- -Jigglypuff- -Dedede-
-Kirby- -Link- -Lucario- -Lucas- -Luigi- -Mario- -Marth- -MetaKnight- -Ness- -Olimar- -Peach- -Pikachu-
-Pit- -PokemonTrainer- -ROB- -Samus- -Shiek- -Snake- -Sonic- -ToonLink- -Wario- -Wolf- -Zelda- -ZSS-​

Yeah, it's pretty massive >_>

 

[Kiwikomix]

Looks good. What's first, FD?

 

[Big Red]

I like where this is going.

Quick question, do you think maybe you should use some type of rotation to keep things organized. That would probably take a really long time, but I think that would be better than habing people just shouting random stages they do good on.

Just a suggestion though, it is your thread after all.

 

[Mmac]

I dunno, we could do Characters First, or Stages first.

Personally, I think Stage based will be better and faster, but I want to see what everyone else thinks. Character Based might be more accurate...

 

[Chaco]

Character based is way more accurate, and especially sine we have the MY vs Yoshi stage debate still in the air with some MK and Yoshi's.

 

[Mmac]

I guess we'll do it Character Based, and I guess we'll get started on MetaKnight.

Anyone want to get started?

 

[Kiwikomix]

MK! Hoorah!
Obviously you want to build the stage around preservation of the CG. FD, Smashville, Corneria are preferable, and occasionally Pictochat, Delfino, Orpheon and Weegee's. Castle Siege and Green Hill are great because they have walk-off edges, so grab = death at all percentages.
Moving stages and small-platform stages (e.g. Norfair) should be avoided, because the CG is basically useless. Brinstar is also a poor choice, since it keeps him from being fair-spiked.
Most other stages are more in MK's advantage, since they usually give him more than one way to approach you, which you don't want.

Thoughts?

 

[Shiri]

If you can't go to Final Destination or you've already gone there in your set...

...then Delfino Plaza is the next best thing. In fact, I won't hesitate to say that Delfino Plaza should be an "ace in the hole" should your opponent either ban Final Destination or go Snake since you can also molest Snake badly there, as well. Strictly speaking for Meta Knight, though, Final Destination and Delfino Plaza are where it's at.

Smashville is not such a good idea, I think. The same goes with Corneria here. There is nothing for Yoshi to abuse in this matchup on these stages except some very short bursts of CG damage, which isn't much, admittedly, but can set up for some things off the edge still. Regardless of that, I think that a stage where Yoshi has nothing to abuse isn't a stage you want to counterpick to. I'd rather play a bad matchup on an abusable stage than an even matchup on a stage that lets another character's natural strengths take precedence. Meta Knight is at his best on these stages and it's honestly not worth dealing with his strengths on these stages; it's a real pain and, frankly, not worth your time. This is the same reason why I think Battlefield is not a good stage for this matchup also.

Taking the game's broken character to a fair stage is not a good idea. You want to tilt the matchup in your favor as much as you possibly can; you have to make up for not being broken by playing as unfairly as possible and doing so will bring about a good deal of success, I think.

 

[DstyCube]

Excellent thread.

MetaKnight:
So many people seem to play metaknight, and it's good to always be prepared to face one. As everyone knows, the specific advantage Yoshi has over MK is CGs and grab release combos. This is one of MK's few weaknesses, so you must take advantage of it when you got the chance! If you can't CG MK, it's going to be a tough fight for you.

Starters​

I don't know about other tournaments, but the ones I go to, these 4 are the only stages that are available for play (I think we will slowly start to allow more counterpick stages as time goes on).

Final Destination
If you were to pick any stage to play against MK, this would be it. Flat stage and is also the longest out of the other 3 starter stages. There are no platforms, personally I think MK benefits way more from them than Yoshi in this matchup. Warning: Beware of the top tier ledges -- but you already knew of those right?

Battlefield
I personally think that Yoshi has a slight disadvantage on this stage because the cons seem to outweigh the pros of picking this stage, but I'm going to leave it up to you guys.

Yoshi has a couple advantages on this stage. The first being that you can still CG/grab release on this stage, but its not as good as Final Destination. Battlefield also has the lowest ceiling which will let you get in some uair/usmash kills at slightly lower percents.

The platforms on this stage can really hurt you if you are not careful. You don't want catch yourself with MK below you, because he will have a huge advantage with his aerials. Eggs won't be as effective on this stage because of it's small size, and a good MK will probably try to keep the pressure on you. Tornado spam can also get very annoying on this stage since you can get caught in them and MK can land on the platforms to avoid helpless fall animation.​

Smashville
This is generally one of my favorite stages. The platform is high enough that it doesn't screw up grab combos, unlike the platforms on Battlefield. The moving platform can also open up a few more options for Yoshi when it comes to recovering to the stage or from the ledge. I'm also a real big fan of platform canceling, but that's just me. Like Battlefield, you don't want to be caught on the platform with MK under you, but it's a moving platform, so I guess it's not as bad.

Yoshi's Island
Out of the 4 starter stages, this is your worst choice. CG / grab release combos are practically impossible to pull off on this stage because of the uneven ground and the random seesaw platform can also deny your grab releases. The only saving grace on this stage are the random ghosts, and even they won't help save you from gimps as much since most of MK's kills are probably going to be off the side of the stage. Always keep an eye out for shy guys that can block you egg's trajectory. All in all, this is a very hard stage to play against MK, be prepared for an uphill battle.

Counterpicks​

I'll do these later. Tired. Zzz...

P.S. - I expect great things to come from this thread! XD

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi Only
No items
Final Destination.

FD is advantage >.>
Spear Pillar is ...exactly like FD but now you can trap MK in hazards and then protect yourself ^.^, sure it's usually banned but whatever!

 

[Deleted member]

I love when mks cp delphino against me =D

Halberd isnt bad either.

Edit: Distant planet is banned like everywhere.

 

[Bwett]

When it comes to MK, although yoshi has an advantage on delphino against most characters, delphino is one of MK's best stages. He gets autocancelled upB's everywhere, narrow sides for quick kills, and he can tornado from under the stage. MK's that stay under the stage **** yoshi because of the options he has, whether it be tornado, shuttle loop, repeated uairs. It's completely disastrous. Not only that but most of the stage, there will be no spiking because of water or land.

Of course I don't want to say that Yoshi doesn't have a few advantages. You have a very small chance of CG death on 2 parts of the stage. If you hit it perfectly, you have a CG infinite on one wall although not infinites are banned so not too great. Also, when the stage changes, you can have a decently low ceiling. However, I think any stage that involves a stage that you can come up through should not be played against MK.

Final Destination, Smashville, and Corneria are some of the best places to choose. Alot of people here focus hardcore on the idea of CG'ing but really Yoshi's power doesn't come from his CG potential. It barely does any damage. The only real potential it has is a -possible- but not guaranteed usmash or fair on MK and the mindgames that arise from it. Sure, it allows you to get MK to the edge, but because it is MK, it is entirely too risky and near impossible to try to edgeguard him so don't even try.

Yoshi shines best at mid and long range fighting. He needs space in order to keep pressure with eggs and bairs until he can find an opening. When you are enclosed within a place like Battlefield, your egg game gets partially cut off and therefore your approach game. (I'm kinda just ranting/going with the flow so bear with me lol)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Destination - Long range fighting, MK has a difficult time. You can pressure him with eggs and bairs all day long. His CG allows you to put MK in a vulnerable situation if mindgamed correctly, like charged usmashes or dash attacks or even uairs.

Smashville - Same situation as FD but not you have a platform, a welcome sight for Uair potential.

Corneria - Same, except extremely low ceiling! While MK is in the air, throwing eggs that bait airdodges can lead to a quick kill with uair.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now just as a warning, I really think no matter what character you are facing (including MK), Yoshi should never be seen on a few stages. Those include Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Brinstar, and Frigate Orpheon.

Jungle Japes - Highest ceiling in the game. Your KO potential just went out the window. MK will last forever unless you get off a well-placed fsmash or nair. Also, part of your game relies on ECE's. Klap-trap is extremely dangerous and shuts that option off. We tend to fall off edge and DJ as well. Extremely dangerous with the water and Klap-trap but because of Yoshi's other recoveries from the ledge being so slow, we have no other option unless we want to be punished.

Rainbow Cruise - We rely on having space to work with but this is too much space. Characters can stay out of range of your eggs. Furthermore, there aren't many edges to grab and the stage is constantly moving. Yoshi doesn't have the kind of air game to keep up, as well as attack, especially against MK. (In reference to MK, once you get off the boat, MK can gimp Yoshi way too easily.)


Brinstar - This stage is a powerful stage for MK but also its not so great for Yoshi in general. Because of the way the floor is made, there is disjunctions that break part of Yoshi's flow (or atleast my flow) quite a bit. In reference to MK, he tornado and screw up the stage. Stage gets separated and you lost a big advantage against MK. You've now turned it into an air fight and Yoshi doesn't tourch MK in the air unless he is under MK. Like Delphino, ability to go through stage with tornado and upB, atleast the breakable part.

These last two might just be bias but I'm gonna say them anyways and leave them as neutral.

Lylat Cruise - Yoshi is the kind of character that if you are getting edgehogged, you can just barely make it back to the edge. The moving edge can screw yoshi to hell and back. Besides that, I just don't like the stage, so you might put it up to bias lol.

Frigate Orpheon - It's small, it's edges are deceiving, relatively high ceiling, and I think Yoshi shouldn't play on it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now on to stages that are against MK specifically where I think they might be bad or neutral.

Yoshi's Island - Both Yoshi and MK have advantages and disadvantages to this stage. First off, Yoshi does have a small amount of room to work his game with. Egg spamming and a potential CG. However, it all depends on how the top platform moves, MK can be safe. But what comes with this platform is the always powerful Upsmashes and uairs. You can get pretty crazy with the mindgames due to Yoshi Bombing off the slopes to either grab the edge or cancel the slide to a fsmash. However, the sides are narrow and allow for MK to possibly have quick kills off of you.

Battlefield - I agree with DstyCube, neutral.

Norfair - Yoshi has some pretty awesome abilities on Norfair and I enjoy CPing it. You can do some ECE from platform to platform and have uair, egg, along with other potential attacks that do well. However, MK can also do some nasty stuff involving shuttle loop and his vanish edgeguarding. I think it should go slightly in Yoshi's favor but I leave it for yall to decide.

Luigi Mansion - Odds are, you do not want to go to this stage if you are facing MK, but it really depends on the type of MK you are facing. If he spams tornado, this stage will eat you alive. Not much else to describe than that. It hurts that much lol. However, if you break the house, for that time, it is in your favor since it becomes FD length

I'm too lazy to do any more analysis, but there ya go!

 

[Mmac]

It's coming along nicely, but I was hoping that alot more people would get involved in this >_>

So far, we've got

Advantage:
Final Destination
Smashville
Corneria
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Green Hill Zone

Neutral:
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise (Would like more discussion on it though)

Disadvantage:
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

Mixed:
Yoshi's Island Brawl (Neutral/Disadvantage)
Luigi's Mansion (Advantage/Disadvantage)
Norfair (Neutral/Disadvantage)
Frigate Orpheon (Advantage/Neutral)

Undecided:
Pokémon Stadium 1
Halberd
Distant Planet
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Island Melee

 

[Naucitos]

I'd like to contribute, but i don't have much that i can since i very rarely play metaknights >_<

 

[Shiri]

Lucky you.

 

[Naucitos]

Not really, i'd like some practice against them before i head down to mass madness in a few weeks

 

[Kiwikomix]

Just a question here...
Are the advantage/disadvantage things taking matchup scores into account? We don't REALLY have an advantage over MK on most of those stages (except Castle Siege, which is FD and Bridge of Eldin mixed together for grab = win), so is it all relative to the character or what?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigis mansion is MKs best stage JFYI

 

[DstyCube]

Just a question here...
Are the advantage/disadvantage things taking matchup scores into account? We don't REALLY have an advantage over MK on most of those stages (except Castle Siege, which is FD and Bridge of Eldin mixed together for grab = win), so is it all relative to the character or what?

The purpose of counterpicking is to increase your chances of winning. Overall MK has a minor advantage over Yoshi. There are a few stages where Yoshi has an advantage over MK, but there are more stages where MK has an advantage over Yoshi. So yes, it is relative to the character.

 

[Mmac]

The purpose of counterpicking is to increase your chances of winning. Overall MK has a minor advantage over Yoshi. There are a few stages where Yoshi has an advantage over MK, but there are more stages where MK has an advantage over Yoshi. So yes, it is relative to the character.

What he said. It's basically if the stage makes us more likely to win, then it's our advantage. If it does the opposite and helps the opponent to win, then it's his advantage. If the stage doesn't effect the matchup at all, or effects both characters equally, then it's neutral.

 

[Kiwikomix]

All right, so whichever stage HELPS you. Just as long as it doesn't turn the tide of the matchup in our favor, that sounds fine.
By the way, this thread is replacing the older one in the Thread Thread, if Mmac doesn't mind.

 

[Naucitos]

If theres nothing else on this matchup, should we continue? i'd like to see this get completed too, and even if some stuff is left unanswered, we can still go back and correct it

 

[Mmac]

I really want to do it Staged based, because I think that would be alot faster.

My opinion on some of the stages, I think that Pokemon Stadium 1, Distant Planet, Pictochat, and Yoshi's Island Melee are Advantage. I'm not too sure of the rest though, or the Mixed opinion ones

 

[DstyCube]

I really like it being character base, it really gets to the basics of which stage should you choose against a certain character. I've had some stuff to do the past couple days (and the site was down for a while) so I havent gotten to finish up the counter pick stages : / sorry lol.

 

[Fingerp@ss]

I really like it being character base, it really gets to the basics of which stage should you choose against a certain character. I've had some stuff to do the past couple days (and the site was down for a while) so I havent gotten to finish up the counter pick stages : / sorry lol.

Hurry up! I need some stage counterpick schooling...

 

[Chaco]

I got lost in this, needs stickying. But yeah, umm....

Tell me what I need to do and I'll get all over it.

 

[Bwett]

Halberd, Frigate Orpheon, and Delphino should be Disadvantages against MK. Yoshi gets wrecked on those.

 

[Ryusuta]

I disagree with Delfino, bwett. I'd actually consider that a reasonable counter against Meta. (Especially for the walk-off parts).

 

[Bwett]

I disagree with Delfino, bwett. I'd actually consider that a reasonable counter against Meta. (Especially for the walk-off parts).

The walk-off parts are extremely situational, and if a MK knows about your CG, they can easily just hang to the left side on one of them and neutralize it completely. Not only that, but the ability to uair, shuttle loop, and tornado from under the stage with little to no punishment is extremely difficult to deal with. That along with narrow sides make for a hard time overall

 

[Airborne]

here's my 2 cents: MK doesn't stand a chance on any stage where you can walk to your death; the CG completely slaughters him jus like Dedede's way of taking advantage. My two fdavorites to do this on are Delfino Plaza (only at those 2 parts though...) and Castle Siege (in the air and at the statue place). =D

 

[Bwett]

Like I was saying before, this is extremely situational. Not only do you have to get it perfect on each part so that either the umbrellas don't mess you up or the uneven stairs, along with the fact that you have to do it in one direction with the umbrella, but you don't have much time to do so. A good MK can avoid a grab in the air and take damage from a few eggs for a short period of time. Also, these parts of the stages are later in the level. You can't really rely on such a gimmick kill as that when most of the stage is in MK's favor.

Personally, I have only gotten a walk-off kill with MK on delphino maybe one time, and, to me, it isn't worth the hassle.

Also, you can't CG MK off the stage in the phase changing part of Castle Siege. The CG takes too long to get adequate distance for death unless you are already ridiculously close to the edge, but once again extremely situational.

 

[Ryusuta]

It's really not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. Remember that even if the position isn't right for a chain grab, a high enough percent and equal a forward throw or smash kill at that spot.

On top of that, Yoshi has plenty of camping spots, the platforms above the moving grate are hardly disruptive, and there's very little off-stage stuff that really strongly hurts Yoshi.

 

[Bwett]

It's really not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. Remember that even if the position isn't right for a chain grab, a high enough percent and equal a forward throw or smash kill at that spot.

On top of that, Yoshi has plenty of camping spots, the platforms above the moving grate are hardly disruptive, and there's very little off-stage stuff that really strongly hurts Yoshi.

Even if it wasn't as difficult as you say, a chain grab at high enough percent can get a kill from usmash on many stages. We are looking at what Delphino in particular has to offer and I feel those two parts of the stages don't justify an advantage for Yoshi.

The grate area is also too small for Yoshi to be camping in any way. The platforms above the grate are dangerous to be on against MK. The absolute worst situation you can be in is above MK. He has too many options to kill you from that position.

The problem is not that this stage hurts Yoshi. This stage is just fine for Yoshi. In fact its pretty good for Yoshi, but we are looking at how the matchup of Yoshi vs. MK is affected by this stage. Overall, MK has a stronger advantage on this stage than what it has going for Yoshi. It is so strong that the advantages that MK possesses on this stage far outweigh and overshadow the advantages Yoshi has for this level.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Let's take the stage apart piece by piece:
Moving Platforms: Slightly in MK's favor, which hurts because it's the most common area.
Boardwalk: Your favor, since MK can be CG'ed very easily. You can't spike him, unfortunately.
Beach (2 of these): Your favor, as you can camp and CG, even though fair spikes aren't an option.
Small islands: Solidly MK's favor. You're not very functional on these tiny platforms, whereas MK feels pretty much at home on them.
Umbrellas: Walk-off edges are present, but MK can hang around in the water rather than risk getting killed. This makes it slightly in your favor, since you can stay back and snipe him with eggs while he's busy avoiding the ****.
Fountain: Your favor, but not by too much. The walk-off edges are nice but the chaingrab is difficult to pull off here.
Top of statue: MK's favor, because there's enough room for him to maneuver around you without having to fear the CG.
Rooftops: Neutral. You can CG -> fthrow off the sides here, but MK can just camp on the middle platform (or slightly to the side of it, if he doesn't want to get egged) and wait it out for the stage change.
Water Basin: Neutral. There are walk-offs again, but they are very easily avoided since the terrain is so uneven. MK will likely hang around the left side of the screen if you try to stay on the walk-off area.

So, keeping in mind that the platforms appear twice as much as every other part of the stage, here's a breakdown of the advantages:

MK-Yoshi-MK-Yoshi-Yoshi-MK-MK-MK-Yoshi-MK-Yoshi-MK-MK-MK-Neutral-MK-Neutral
That leaves us with 10 MK advantages and 5 Yoshi advantages. Doesn't sound like an advantageous stage to me.

 

[Chaco]

The top of the tower is neutral IMHO. I CG released spike off of it a few times actually.

 

[Mmac]

The thing here is that on your Rooftop/Water Basin part. If he's just camping and holding his ground without going into a far riskier position, then it's our advantage. If he's just holding his ground, we can just pummel him with eggs until the stage changes, or MetaKnight moves. No matter what, you are dishing out damage and you are going to be reletively safe.

Also the Fountain part isn't at all hard to CG MetaKnight. Only when it slants downwards, it makes it hard, but even that is possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Just so u guys know, Mk never has to approach yoshi on any stage, he can just powershield eggs all day. So that means that on a stage like delphino, he can just sit on the side and wait for the change in the stage. This goes for any character on any stage, altho lots of people are too lazy to powershield it all.

Also, i like the small islands. Low ceiling, lots of places to ECE.

Delphino isnt really a good cp, cuz its good for MK too, but its probably even imo. Thats why i like when MKs counterpick it.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Something I just thought of... sounds a little gimmicky but you never know, it might work.
Could you use egg lay very aggressively on Delfino, so that any character is trapped in an egg while the stage rises away from them? It would also work on Halberd.

 

[Bwett]

If they are surprised, it could happen. However, you can break out of egg lay in a second and they pop out relatively high, so I think it would be extremely situational

 

[Mmac]

Has anyone tested what happens if the egg goes into Water?