Yoshi's Match-Up Chart thread

[t3h Icy]

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Yoshi's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

 

[Mind Trick]

Assuming NTSC version
imo
- 60:40
- 35:65
- 40:60
- 50:50
- 35:65
- 30:70
- 60:40
- 40:60
- 50:50
- 45:55
- 55:45
- 45:55
- 50:50
- 45:55
- 45:55
:mewtwo: - 55:45
- 50:50
: 40:60
ichu: - 65:35
- 50:50
- 60:40
- 40:60
:shiek: - 10:90
- 50:50
- 50:50
- 40:60

 

[yoshiiscool]

You mixed up the values in the sheik vs Yoshi match... I ****in wish it was 90:10 in our favor xD

Otherwise, I'd say I'm alright with this list, I do think there are a couple minor faults, thought. I think CF should be 40:60, game and watch 55:45, and I'm always bad at fighting marth's, but I know everyone else's opinion is that it's not a terrible matchup. I guess Ganon is the same for me, I can think of some pretty huge advantages, so I'd put both marth and ganon at 40:60, too. Also, do people think the Fox matchup is really that bad? Sure it's hard, but... I really don't think 20:80, I think more like 30:70.

So, my changes to mind tricks list: CF 40:60, GW 55:45, Ganon 40:60, Marth 40:60, fox 30:70

 

[Mind Trick]

You mixed up the values in the sheik vs Yoshi match... I ****in wish it was 90:10 in our favor xD

Otherwise, I'd say I'm alright with this list, I do think there are a couple minor faults, thought. I think CF should be 40:60, game and watch 55:45, and I'm always bad at fighting marth's, but I know everyone else's opinion is that it's not a terrible matchup. I guess Ganon is the same for me, I can think of some pretty huge advantages, so I'd put both marth and ganon at 40:60, too. Also, do people think the Fox matchup is really that bad? Sure it's hard, but... I really don't think 20:80, I think more like 30:70.

So, my changes to mind tricks list: CF 40:60, GW 55:45, Ganon 40:60, Marth 40:60, fox 30:70

On second thought, I agree with most of this (forgot ganons fair nerf in pal)
I may be a bit biased on the marth mu because I have experience against every single one of the top marths in europe, so its my fave mu.
Yoshi wrecks g&w though, I stand by 60:40

 

[Nogzor'z]

agreed that yoshi v G&W in our favour.

I feel like the yoshi v Bowser matchup should be in our favour more than 60:40.
Reasons being, from some on and off matches against bowser, that he falls victim to yoshi's egg lay inevitabley. Bowser's lack of speed makes me thinks that yoshi could, theoretically, control the whole matchup by: continously avoiding while egg throwing and laying to apply damage Then kill.

but of course thats just my speculation... I personally haven't actually done this. (not to that extent anyway)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is sooooooooooooooooooooooo gay

I can't really dispute 90-10 though I actually think this is a matchup that swings like 25-30 points because of that silly NTSC grab

 

[leffen]

more leik its retardedly easy in pal since she doesnt have **** from grabs and its impossible in ntsc.

 

[t3h Icy]

Are you guys agreeing with Mind Trick for the most part (excluding what the cool Yoshi mentioned)? Any opinions from V3ctorman and Bloshi?

 

[Nogzor'z]

Yes... i would agree with Mind Trick, "for the most part"

 

[hungrybox]

i dont agree with mindtrick

using those values it makes yoshi seem middle tier

 

[Nogzor'z]

thats how i see him.... but perhaps that conversation would be for a different time.

Maybe yoshi has always "seemed" middle tier, but is placed into bottom, or now negligible, tier due to his nearly nonexistant tourny results.

but, of course, the values used are skewed by Mind Trick's opinion and not by a reached consensus by the community. (which im not sure how it was achieved since yoshi does not have enough recorded information to place him into a tier, besides "negligible").

 

[KirbyKaze]

more leik its retardedly easy in pal since she doesnt have **** from grabs and its impossible in ntsc.

I would think a matchup swinging 30 points (from 90-10 to 60-40) implies something like that anyway

Her game looks really limited vs Yoshi in PAL. Weak moves are ineffectual (Sheik's a lot of weak moves lol) because Yoshi's got a good crouch cancel game and DJ armour. Strong aerials are good, but they don't really combo or do anything. Grab does nothing. Yay for poking lool. Meanwhile Yoshi has those awesome combos he already has in NTSC

Non-version-specific question: how good are Sheik's needles against Yoshi?

 

[yoshiiscool]

Sheik's needles are pretty good vs yoshi, because it gives her the ability to camp him more, which is why even in PAL I think the matchup is prolly still around 70:30. Sheik's tilts and quick aerials pretty much outdo anything Yoshi has, making it nigh impossible to approach without taking some kind of damage, especially if she's camping with needles to make you come to her. Also another thing that makes approaching such a pain in the ***, is that Sheik's not all that bad of a CCer herself, and Yoshi gets ****in ***** by CCing IMO. The only decent attack that leads to things, regardless of CCing, is f-air, and it's so obvious that you get f-aired or tilted out of it every time. Main thing about PAL is that yoshi doesn't die from a grab, other than that, I'd argue it's still a freakin terrible match... Plus I love my ECE, and I get sniped with the needles, and it hurts my heart T.T </3 **** sheik.
We can combo the hell out of her though ^^.

@Hbox - I don't think the numbers really make him seem mid-tier. I mean he still loses to most of the cast, and even more so against the frequently used higher tier characters. That's definitely grounds for low - bottom tier. Yoshi pretty much blows. :<


<pity party/> <3 Yoshi

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd think PAL Yoshi would poke mostly with D-tilt and stuff and try to coax her into the air where he can get under her

I think Yoshi wins a straight up CC war tbh.

 

[Winston]

i dont agree with mindtrick

using those values it makes yoshi seem middle tier

the values for the spacies matchups seem somewhat optimistic, but even so the unwinnable matchup vs Sheik goes a long way towards making Yoshi negligible/bottom tier material.

 

[leffen]

lol wtf at yoshiiscool.
How do you honestly get CAMPED by needles? they can work as a anti approaching move but it certainly doesnt make yoshi have to approach in a stupid way.
Saying yoshi gets ***** by CC is really bull****, even nair is safe on cc. If you bair someone whos on the ground and not retreating then your just playing horrible.
Sheiks bair / fair spacing really sucks in this matchup tbh, you should know why.
If shiek is short hop / full jumping needles then just DJCC it into uair to combos.., she cant do **** about it.

Yoshi defiently wins the dash dance game ( CC ***** her dash attack / ftilt , she doesnt have anything from grabs ).
Yoshi gets the kill wayyy easier too ;D

 

[yoshiiscool]

My definition of camping is someone playing defensively to make you approach them, is that wrong? I'm pretty sure that's how sheik uses her needles, and not in a stupid way that you can punish her for .
Since when does n-air beat CCing? Maybe the initial hit at higher %s, but otherwise, no, it definitely is CCable, and VERY punishable. While it's true Yoshi does win in straight CCing, I don't think there's much he can get out of CCing in the match, except for d-smash kills at high %s, since f-tilt doesn't lead to anything, and d-tilt is a reset move, whereas sheik gets combos from her CC.
I should know why f-air/b-air spacing is bad in this matchup... Well I know sheik's aerial maneuverability sucks horribly, and those moves get DJCC/CCed easily, but I don't think this really matters when sheik should be mostly grounded anyways, but if there's something I'm missing, please enlighten me.
About Yoshi "winning" the dash dance game in this matchup. To what avail, really? Yoshi doesn't get anything out of his grab either, so scaring people into committing to an attack or rolling/sidestepping to punish is extremely hard. Yoshi's dash dance just isn't really threatening.

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, or maybe I'm just a horrible player . Icanhazvidz of Yoshi god Leffen plx?

 

[Nogzor'z]

I think i would agree with Moo that yoshi's n-air is CCable, and that yoshi can't get much out of crouch-canceling in this match. Personally, I steer away from CC against sheik, and try for many DJCCs (seeing as how i sort of "specialize" in them. It works well against tilt-happy sheiks at least.) )

Also, if sheik should be mostly grounded, wouldn't neutral B become a useful tool to safely (sort of) approach? Correct me if im wrong, but i believe it should out-range sheik's tilts.

I guess what im arguing here is that, PERHAPS... this MU is not 10:90, but a slighty more reasonable 20:80?
Avoiding sheiks grab being Yoshi's main concern to win this match of course, Maybe the value could even be 25:75 on stages with platforms where Yoshi could use his superior aerial mobility, and the platforms themselves, to avoid grabs.

 

[darkgirku]

Bowser 20-80 yoshi

...maybe even 10-90, based on personal experience. lol

Yoshi's neutral B, as Nog stated earlier, gives bowser little chance to do anything really. His strongest option to dodge the tongue is spot dodge, and he has a terrible one. he's too slow to evade the tongue by running back/WDing back, and if he does, he's just putting himself in a bad position near the edge.

The only way he can punish egg lay is to space perfectly and try to punish with a bair/fair (which will get DJCC'd even if yoshis armor is broken...) , but that hasn't seemed feasible to override this strong tactic yoshi can use in this matchup, abusing bowser lack of speed and massiveness with an unshieldable, hard to even spot dodge, optionally aerial grab hitbox that stays out for a bit.

I guess rolling can also help bowser put himself into a good position to get at yoshi after dodging an egglay with the roll, but that does get predictable quickly.

I'm not a bowser expert or anything, but yeah... egglay > bowser... that's all you need to shut down bowser, not even counting yoshi's actual current gameplay lol. rack up damage with simply egglay and/or safe (if needed..) attempts at following the move up with eggs/uair/more egglays.

----
But as for the more important match up... lol

I'd also argue that sheik is not 10-90.

I'm more for 20-80 or 25-75 (random guesses simply because i don't think it's that terrible. She seems like one of the easiest characters to abuse/recognize situations for DJCC)

Figures, i don't have much to say about this one besides observational opinion haha, except that...

While sheik can definitely punish hard for one grab, yoshi punishes hard for one anything (albeit not as hard as sheik, but pretty hard anyways). bair utilt... nair chains to ridiculous uairs which sheik has no options against once she is above yoshi...

DJCC Uairs!!! much better than DJCC nairs (and this obviously applies to most of the cast, not just vs sheik)
One DJCC uair and bam, combo city.

I won't mention edgeguarding, cuz it's sheik lol... But like I said, I don't really know the actual specifics of this matchup... I'd like to see/figure out the dashdance/stand off phase of this matchup, to know who has a better time getting the first hit/grab in.

 

[Lordydennek]

edgegaurding sheik is the easiest thing in the game. hit her off, grab the ledge, wait for her to vanish onto stage, wl on and fsmash her back off. or dsmash. whatever you want. its all about taking the ledge away from her. her ending lag on her upb takes over 9000 years so its easy to punish.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm so glad I do so little vs Yoshi.

You guys are talking about punishing tilts and crap I don't even use tilts vs Yoshi

Sheik gets the first strike really easily vs Yoshi loooool

 

[yoshiiscool]

Well, how do you play vs Yoshi then, KK? I don't really remember our matches much, since they were from P4, I just know you utterly destroyed me, and there wasn't much I could do. I also remember that silly u-smash trick... man that made me sad. xD

 

[KirbyKaze]

What silly U-smash trick? The dual hit? I forget these things :3

I just look deep into Yoshi's eyes and then he knows it's over.

 

[darkgirku]

The funny thing is, shiek getting the first hit (not grab) can be good for yoshi =D

Kirbykaze, what little do you do against yoshis you've played? I'd like to know

 

[yoshiiscool]

Yea, KK, I'm talkin about the dual hit. Stuff is disgusting, breaks his DJ at like 50, and pops him up to just get pushed off the edge :< so sad.

btw, <3 ms. mowz avatar xD

 

[KirbyKaze]

I grab. And wait. And I move out of shield backwards a lot.

Sometimes I space aerials. And D-smash. But... not often. Mostly I just wait. Because I like it when Yoshi comes to me. His grabs (including B) are kind of bad against Sheik and don't really combo to anything so I don't really worry about him doing it. It's a huge risk for him to attempt to... if I jump out of shield when he comes in for it, I get a free grab and my grabs are like super ridiculous.

I also wind up grabbing Yoshi out of the air a lot for some reason. It's really cool. PakMan was really confused about it when he played me. He called shenanigans on me more than once.

Dual U-smash is like super ridiculous **** omg <3

Follow dual U-smash if you nick their jump at like 50 with light Uairs and then tap him offstage with D-smash is so **** oh my gawd

 

[V3ctorMan]

I like this thread!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh yeah, it's generally safe for Sheik to jump back out of shield anyway vs Yoshi because you'll usually go over his F-tilt (not up angled), D-tilt, jabs, D-smash, F-smash and most of his ground moveset (basically not his up angled F-tilt and U-tilt). And if he tries an aerial you can jump back and Fair, or even double jump for platforms stuff. It's hard for him to really follow that directly because his double jump doesn't go up very quickly.

 

[Lordydennek]

ftilt for shield pressure is supper good. and ya if sheik tries to jump out it can catch her. also i just wd back and throw a low egg when that happens. yoshis ftilt is actually a really awesome move... i dont think yoshis use it enough. or at least not ones ive seen. MT does i guess.

 

[ChivalRuse]

ICs 60-40 Yoshi. Synched fair ***** Yoshi's CC.

 

[leffen]

wow u are clueless.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I nair because I care.

 

[Mind Trick]

why would u ever use CC against Icies though (except for telegraphed nairs, dairs, recovery side b or whatever), it's an even matchup. Things that are good against icies: dtilt, fair, eggs. Obv your concern should be you don't want to get grabbed or smashed in the face.
and sheik is definitely still hard in PAL, she could just keep needling a bit, short hopping backwards a bit and throwing some fairs out and it'd be hard to counter. DJCC is kinda situational, it's easy to misread when's she's gonna slap you. Fsmash is good against spaced stuff, parry I guess when they are going straight for you, need to experiement more though when I go to amsah's again or something.

 

[yoshiiscool]

<3 Mind Trick. I love people who know what they're talking about on here.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well duh you're not going to be CCing their attacks. But in the process of d-tilting you also CC. Fair ***** d-tilt, because you hop over it and slam Yoshi into the ground, where d-smash is guaranteed, and jab reset -> grab can work.

The difference between Yoshi's fair and ICs' fair in the matchup is that ICs can actually move around while shielding. So good luck hitting them with a fair. Shielding is the last thing Yoshi wants to do, since he's liable to get grabbed or shield pressured with blizzards, jabs, or AC'd bairs -> dsmash.

ICs' projectiles are also > Yoshi's in the matchup. His have lag, theirs don't if you desync them properly, meaning they can follow up a blizzard or ice block that connects with a grab or move of their choice.

 

[darkgirku]

Sheik short hopping back does indeed sound like a tough situation for Yoshi. Still not sure about 90-10 though lol. And I think the key is DJCC uair/nairs. I don't think they are used to their full potential yet from the vids I've seen.

I guess even after DJCCs are used properly, and the sheik is used to them, it probably is either 90-10 or 20-80. But yeah, I'm not too sure with myself. could be higher *optimistic* lol

 

[Mind Trick]

Well duh you're not going to be CCing their attacks. But in the process of d-tilting you also CC. Fair ***** d-tilt, because you hop over it and slam Yoshi into the ground, where d-smash is guaranteed, and jab reset -> grab can work.

The difference between Yoshi's fair and ICs' fair in the matchup is that ICs can actually move around while shielding. So good luck hitting them with a fair. Shielding is the last thing Yoshi wants to do, since he's liable to get grabbed or shield pressured with blizzards, jabs, or AC'd bairs -> dsmash.

ICs' projectiles are also > Yoshi's in the matchup. His have lag, theirs don't if you desync them properly, meaning they can follow up a blizzard or ice block that connects with a grab or move of their choice.

Alright I can see the followups from fair, I just can't see fair hitting often. You can see that **** coming from a mile away and do tons of stuff to counter it, I guess it will hit if I spam dtilts in place.

The difference between Yoshi's fair and ICs' fair in the matchup is that Yoshi actually has aerial mobility to space fair in many ways. It's true you don't want to be shielding with yoshi... so don't.

Ice blocks are kinda laughable, once again aerial mobility. Yoshi's eggs dont have lag if you throw them from the edge, where they will eat away icies shield. Blizzard can be tricky, and is possibly the only time you wanna lightshield in this mu.

I've played this mu so much in the past, when a great player was still active that lives really close by. I can't say anything other than even matchup. Icies punish really hard, break doublejump easy, but on the other hand Yoshi has great tools for getting early nana kills and splitting them up.

 

[Lordydennek]

I'm goin with MT on this one. ive only played 2 ics players and one guy (who was a lot better than me at the time) i went close to even with. and the other guy (who I am better than) i won everytime, fairly easily. most matches ended with me 2 stocking him. so had he been on par with me theyd be really close to even.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The thing about Yoshi's aerial mobility is that ICs' wavedash goes far enough to get out of range of any DJC nairs/fairs. The key to this matchup for ICs is to wait for Yoshi to land (he has to eventually) and punish incredibly hard. If Yoshi spaces moves too close to the ground, he risks getting ds bizzarded -> grab. As far as camping goes, Yoshi's platform camping is pretty good, but there are still distinct moments when he's vulnerable to uair poking him while he's not airborne. Moreover, if he commits to a DJ that isn't aerial cancelled, he will almost certainly get hit while descending, since ICs' ground mobility allows them to follow him to the gates of hell and back - and grab him when they catch up. ICs' can ground camp well, and strike with timely wd -> fsmashes/dsmashes/grabs which hit Yoshi's huge body extremely easily.

I just don't see how the matchup can be even. Then again, there aren't really many high level Yoshis around in my region.

 

[Lordydennek]

lol at yoshis huge body...he needs to diet