Yoshi vs. ______

[jv3x3]

Ok, im curious about yoshi. Since i dont really know of any good yoshi players in the US (know boy used to be pretty good though) in not sure who to ask. So here it is give me a ratio vs. the below characters outta 10. IE Marth 4:6 Yoshi, this would mean yoshi is a 6:4 favorite vs. marth.

Id like ratios for the below, and give me what you think of yoshi in teams... and any tourneys you've done well in or good known players you have beaten.

Marth
Sheik
Fox
Falco
Peach
Samus
Link
Jiggly
Falcon
Gannon
Mario
Doc
Luigi
ICs

Edit: Im taking US version, so yeah sheik owns yoshi

 

[rmusgrave]

Hmm, I can give you my opinions based on what I have seen in the PAL version (in other words, I'll omit shiek)

Marth 4:6 Yoshi

As far as I can tell, a good Yoshi can beat a good Marth due to his double jump cancel. Plus Yoshi's ability to CC better than most characters, and still have decent speed puts him up above Marth on this one.

Falco 3:7 Yoshi

Due to Yoshi's ability to KO Falco on 0% with dtilt, I'd say this is rather self-explanatory. But also, his CC game combined with dtilt and dsmash makes Yoshi a good Falco counter.

Fox 4:6 Yoshi

Again, Yoshi can KO Fox on 0% with dtilt, however Fox can survive this if the dtilt doesn't get maximum knockback. Same principle as Falco, except Fox is an all round better character.

Peach 7:3 Yoshi

Yoshi survives on CCing. Peach thrives on CCers. 'Nuf said.

Samus 5:5 Yoshi

This matchup is pretty even, with Yoshi able to duck under missiles, and Samus able to win aerially.

Falcon 4:6 Yoshi

Yoshi tends to win this matchup, in similar fashion to Fox and Falco. The dtilt and dsmash have a low enough trajectory to make it very difficult for Falcon to return from being knocked off.

Doc 6:4 Yoshi

I've found as a Yoshi player I have lots of difficulty with vsing a Doc player. Doc's pills really mess up Yoshi's game, as shielding them is a no-go with Yoshi's different shield, and he cannot crouch under them as they will bounce down on top of him anyway. Using eggs to stop the pills is another no-go as 1 pill stops 1 egg, and pills have a faster firing rate.

And that's all I can offer with my experience against good players. Until I battle some others, I can't give much better rankings than this. (Also, these rankings may not be exact, but a rough approximation due to my experience at tournaments with equally or better skilled people than me.)

 

[jv3x3]

Wow those are some pretty good ratios. I dont fully understand the djc principle. I can do it, two quick jumps and then an air. But it seems like only sometimes can i absorb the hit, im not sure why. Care to explain. Who from europe have you played though? I dont know many people, but i know the doug, silver, rune, and remen... you play any of them?

Anyway, since you were the first to respond if i get any good japanese tidbits after i talk to the best or 2nd best (not sure) yoshi in japan ill hit you up with um.

Com'on anyone else?

And yoshi better or worse on teams?

 

[JesusFreak]

Rmusgrave, I'm sorry but those ratios are way off. I have a firend Who i consider to have one of the best Yoshis in the country, and definitely the best here in TX. Unfortunately, he's been busy with school lately and I haven't heard from him in awhile.

But based on what I've seen from Him I'm going to have rewrite your ratios.

Marth 4.5 Yoshi 5.5

Yoshi does have the advantage here, but not by a whole lot. Yoshi can get thru a lot of Marth's attacks with djc but it's very easy for Marth to get Yoshi off the stage, and once he's off vs Marth then that's it.

Falco 4 Yoshi 6

It's true that Yoshi's down tilt is a good killer for fast fallers, but Falco can make it back to the stage if he knows what he's doing. Also Falco's SHL game really screws with yoshi. Yoshi has the advantage here, good at comboing and can kill Falco pretty easily, IF he can get to him and stay on him. Which is not the easiest thing to do against a good Falco.

Fox is pretty much the same story except he can shine Yoshi and kill his 2nd jump easily, and also his speed keeps Yoshi on his toes.

Peach 6 Yoshi 4

This match is a lot more even then you might think. My friend plays against a very good Peach very often since they're in the same crew. If all your Yoshi is is CCing, then you have a sad yoshi. Yoshi has many more options available to him to fight Peach with, but Peach still has the advantage due to better aerials and Turnips.

Samus: agree'd

Falcon, meh I don't really know too much about this. I would assume what you say is fairly accurate seeing as how CF is another fastfaller, but I dont have too much experience with this matchup.

Doc 5 Yoshi 5

This matchup is pretty even too. The pills aren't too much of a problem for yoshi because his eggs travel faster further. Also Yoshi can take advantage of his range over Doc, but Doc has a great all around game, and out powers Yoshi.

 

[rmusgrave]

This match is a lot more even then you might think. My friend plays against a very good Peach very often since they're in the same crew. If all your Yoshi is is CCing, then you have a sad yoshi. Yoshi has many more options available to him to fight Peach with, but Peach still has the advantage due to better aerials and Turnips.

Hmm, I suppose it depends on how the ranking numbers actually work.

And no, my Yoshi isn't all CCing. I can keep up with my friend's Peach in most cases, and I even win 1 in 3 or so. However, one mistake such as trying to d-smash, d-tilt or even just CC an attack at the wrong time leads to a free 30% hit combo at the least.

This matchup is pretty even too. The pills aren't too much of a problem for yoshi because his eggs travel faster further. Also Yoshi can take advantage of his range over Doc, but Doc has a great all around game, and out powers Yoshi.

Hmm, I would be inclined to agree this, except that I have lots of trouble getting past that pill spam. If I do get past it, I tend to be shield grabbed or baired or owned by a wd back fsmash. But, I suppose it depends on the level. I may have a better chance of winning on FD than on Pokestadium.

I'll agree with the Marth one, it is a close matchup.

It's true that Yoshi's down tilt is a good killer for fast fallers, but Falco can make it back to the stage if he knows what he's doing.

He can if he still has his double jump. If he's lost that, the dtilt spike is an instant kill. On maximum knockback, the dtilt spike can knock Fox too far to return even if the player is experienced at surviving Yoshi's dtilt. And then, on anything above 90% Yoshi's dsmash can KO Falco almost indefinitely with its low trajectory.

Who from europe have you played though?

No one. I live in Australia ^^


Yoshi on teams? Uh, if he's on a team with Falcon they can recover together, with Falcon's up-b giving Yoshi back his double jump. Also, with someone like Doc who has a bad recovery, Yoshi's eggs can help him get back. I haven't had too much team experience though.

 

[HugS]

I team up with a great yoshi at every tourney i go to. Because he is my brother. His name is gabe, we both live in socal. And i agree with the samus ratio, as playing samus myself against his yoshi on several occasions, i have seen it pretty even. On teams, yoshi's downtilt is a great way to turn the tide of the match and end up with both of your opponents attempting to recover. His eggs have great damage and knock back, and their awkward arching launch adds to the confusion when you have missles being spammed with eggs from above. I believe yoshi is a good teammate.

 

[dan smith]

Yoshi's really bad, you have to remember that he is heavier in the PAL version though, so Rmusgraves numbers aren't thaat off....

Marth 4:6 Yoshi (the only reason I play Yoshi)
Sheik 8:2
Fox 6:4
Falco 6:4
Peach 7:3
Samus 7:3
Link 5:5
Jiggly 7:3
Falcon 6:4
Gannon 6:4
Mario 5:5
Doc 5:5
Luigi 5:5
ICs 6:4

Those are very rough estimations. The only one I care about is the first one.

You have to remember where Yoshi is on the tier people, you can't say he is better than Falcon...it's just not true.

 

[Werewolf]

Originally posted by JesusFreak
Rmusgrave, I'm sorry but those ratios are way off. I have a firend Who i consider to have one of the best Yoshis in the country, and definitely the best here in TX. Unfortunately, he's been busy with school lately and I haven't heard from him in awhile.

But based on what I've seen from Him I'm going to have rewrite your ratios.

Im Jfreaks friend he is talking about. Anyways I'll put my ratios and give very short explanations as I don't really feel like putting much.

Marth: 6/4 Yoshi's CC is good against Marth as is his D-tilt. A good marth can give yoshi a problem, but in most cases a yoshi should be able to take on a marth. I, for one, have NEVER lost to a marth yet.

Sheik: 9/1 Speed + Chainthrow = Yoshi's Death

Fox: 4/6 Fox's speed makes him hard to deal with although Yoshi can combo him pretty well.

Falco: 5/5 A fairly even match. They both have their pros and cons against each other.

Peach: 8/2 CC = Death for yoshi.

Samus: 5/5 Also fairly even match. Both are heavyweights and both can pose threats to each other.

Link: 6/4 Links projectiles are nuisances.

Jiggly: 7/3 Yoshi is advantaged here.

Falcon: 5/5 Really it depends on how good the yoshi or falcon player is in this case although I see it as a fairly even match up.

Ganon: 6/4 Although ganon is kinda slow, he packs a punch which can mess up yoshi badly. He's actually faster than he appear.

Mario: 5/5 Really depends on the players.

Doc: 7/3 Pills > Yoshi

Luigi: 6/4 His recovery messes up yoshi.

ICs: Not sure about this matchup.

 

[rmusgrave]

Yoshi's really bad, you have to remember that he is heavier in the PAL version though, so Rmusgraves numbers aren't thaat off....

Really bad? Pfft

You have to remember where Yoshi is on the tier people, you can't say he is better than Falcon...it's just not true.

The tiers aren't that far apart. It only seems like it when comparing Pichu to Shiek.

And I can say Yoshi's better than Falcon if I want. It is a free country. Or internet. Or whatever.


Werewolf, I think your ratios may be off a little, but I'm not one to complain too much ^^

Although maybe you should change the numbers around so that you're consistent. Eg one could get confused that Jiggly has a 7:3 advantage against Yoshi, when you say Yoshi has the advantage... Eh, I dunno.

 

[dan smith]

Fox is God.

Werewolfs are the best...

Although you can't seriously say that Yoshi will beat Fox more than Fox with beat Yoshi...Not if the Fox player is as good as the Yoshi player.

I don't dislike playing Fox that much...and I do usually win with Yoshi against him...but I wouldn't attribute that to Yoshi.

 

[Werewolf]

I may have messed up on the ratio thing, Ill go more in depth later anyways. I'm kinda busy right now studying for college tests. YAY...not really.

 

[dan smith]

Originally posted by rmusgrave
The tiers aren't that far apart. It only seems like it when comparing Pichu to Shiek.

Pichu is a lot better than the American Tiers say he is. He isn't thaat far from Pikachu. His size helps him a lot.

But yeah...still...Yoshi is pretty slow...Capn' has got him almost no matter what. It's just not probable.

 

[rmusgrave]

But yeah...still...Yoshi is pretty slow...Capn' has got him almost no matter what. It's just not probable.

I suppose that could be true. But, my local Capn' player has started playing Doc to counter Yoshi, because he has a lot of trouble against it. And he doesn't play Doc against any other character. Maybe it's just the way I play...

 

[Seppukumaru]

i agreee for the most part with rmusgrave, i think he has put the best ratios so far, from my opinion, i would say
shiek 8-2 yoshi-just too fast
marth 4-6 yoshi-yea rmusgaves covered this
falco 3-7 yoshi-ive tested this one a lot d tilt rocks
fox 5-5 yoshi- dtilt rocks da fox pretty well too
falcon 4-6 yoshi i dont know why, yoshi just tends to beat falcon
ics 7-3 their smashes are too fast and have too much priority
peach 7-3 dsmash owns on yoshi
ganon 7-3 it might just be my yoshi, but ganons own me
Dk 5-5 i think that dk just has a small advantage
Samus 5-5
thats all i have to say because those are all the characters i play against most often

 

[jv3x3]

Werewolf, I dont quite understand your ratios it seems like they switch. You should always keep it the same order. Ie ____/yoshi, or yoshi/_____ (blank being the character you are comparing to... like marth, peach, etc). Could ya clarify, thanks.

Anyway, yeah dunno about some of these ratios. I think yoshi is a cool character though and no one has really reached his potential (that ive seen). And has some favorable matches.

 

[rmusgrave]

Hey, jv3x3. Did you work out that question you had before about Yoshi's DJC? If you need it explained I'll edit this post.

Anyway, since you were the first to respond if i get any good japanese tidbits after i talk to the best or 2nd best (not sure) yoshi in japan ill hit you up with um.

How'd you go with this? Was the player Fumi?

 

[Werewolf]

AHHH, i see what I did wrong. Sorry bout the inconsistency. I messed it up.

I'll fix it later, plus I'll try and go more in depth next time.

 

[jv3x3]

Originally posted by rmusgrave
Hey, jv3x3. Did you work out that question you had before about Yoshi's DJC? If you need it explained I'll edit this post.



How'd you go with this? Was the player Fumi?

Yeah i did some testing... Its it works if you are on the way up in your double jump, but only absorbs some of it, not completely cancels. If you do any move or are on your way down while in your double jump in no longer works. This correct, right?

Actually, it was brown mario... Him and fumi are the two good yoshi players in japan. But i havent had much of a conversation with him. Captain jack has to serve as the translator and we havent all be online at the same time as of yet.

Werewolf, cool

 

[rmusgrave]

Yeah i did some testing... Its it works if you are on the way up in your double jump, but only absorbs some of it, not completely cancels. If you do any move or are on your way down while in your double jump in no longer works. This correct, right?

That sounds almost right. Basically, you only go through attacks while still double jumping. So all you need to do is time it so that the attack hits you while DJing, and since you aren't hit anywhere, you can retaliate straight away.

Hope that explains it for you ^^.

Actually, it was brown mario...

Ah, cool. I didn't know he played Yoshi. Looks like Captain Jack will know how to battle my Yoshi if/when he comes to @M. That means I'll have to actually have some skill, other than the unknown character advantage.

 

[Deleted member]

my friend plays yoshi but not too often. A yoshi with range control is the one to fear lol. I do best against him with Ness for some reason...

Yoshi is much like mewtwo where the unknown char thing isn't an advantage. His shield pulls him down too much and any competant player will be able to negate that with grab combos.

Yoshi would be so great if he floated like Zelda instead of....yoshi.

 

[VilNess]

In Marth forums they think Marth has the advantage... who to believe? who is (is anyone?) being objective here?

 

[dan smith]

TRUTH

I think Marth has the advantage...but Yoshi does better against Marth than say...Ness...or DK....or maybe even Zelda.

He does uncharicteristically good against Marth.

 

[rmusgrave]

I think it's probably pretty even. Yoshi's got an advantage over Marth with his ability to DJC through attacks, but Marth is an overall better character.

However, the Marth has to be of at least equal skill with the Yoshi to make it even, judging from my experiences.


But then PAL is nearly a completely different game for Yoshi.

 

[Unrefined]

I've stumbled upon a really good unknown Marth player, sick combos, WD's. Short hops, L-canceling, the works. He's never competed nationally but he should, he could do very well for himself.

I use yoshi, i SH, L-cancel, CC, etc just not as much as him and im able to put him down half of the time, when i consider him to be a better player then me overall skillwise. the DJC is just awful for marth to deal with, Yoshi is just an extremly underrated character that his full potential just hasn't been reached yet.

I still think peach is the hardest matchup for Yoshi, Dsmash, turnips, air priority etc, only time i rock a peach is when im below her and can punish with eggs and Uair since it has more priority then her dair.

It's all a matter of play style, I've watched videos of fancy yoshi players doing all this wavedashing and l-canceling, DJC, and barely using dtilt or dsmash....which makes me sad.

I think a good yoshi player can compete with alot more characters then he's given credit for, atleast from my experience. The tier is nice, only for the fact that when i beat upper/top tier characters i can rub it in their faces :D Once someone masters a good yoshi, i could see him moving up in the tier.

 

[dan smith]

Sadness abounds!!

I wish Yoshi was as good in the NA version as he is in the PAL verison...

I am a Sad Ness.

 

[rmusgrave]

I wish Yoshi was as good in the NA version as he is in the PAL verison...

Just to give you an idea, from my experiences as Yoshi -

PAL ratings:

Shiek 4:6 Yoshi

Shiek almost loses her ability to d-throw combo in PAL, and that is what breaks her against Yoshi. Without her d-throw, she is left without her greatest tool to prevent Yoshi from CCing her combo starters. This leaves Shiek nearly unable to combo Yoshi up to 60% or so. Now add that to all of your other 'advanced' Yoshi strategies, and Shiek loses more than 50% of the time.


Fox 4:6 Yoshi

This has also swung to favour Yoshi. Fox is lighter, his f-smash and d-smash weakened, whereas Yoshi is heavier. Yoshi beats Fox in edgeguarding, and can combo him really well. From what my friends say, Yoshi is hard to infinite, so there's no point trying to fall back on that. Yoshi's d-smash has a devastating trajectory on Fox, and Yoshi's d-tilt spike is an instant KO assuming Fox has lost his double jump, and you edgehog him. Don't get me wrong, it's a tough battle, but Yoshi has the advantage.

Eh, I'm out of time now, but if I can bother thinking up anything else to add, I will.


EDIT:

Well, after another smashfest... the Shiek matchup is probably closer to 5:5. It does depend a lot on how much the Yoshi chokes in the match, because a badly timed DJC can lead to death at 40%. And if you're not playing at the top of your game, a slip-up like that is easy to make.

 

[DoH]

What about Yoshi vs Kirby? I'm looking for a low tier Kirby counter, and I think Yoshi's the one.

 

[dan smith]

Well...

I'd say Yoshi could own Kirby pretty bad. Strong as a horse...the cream puff would be in a lot of trouble.

No spiking an invinciple second jump.


7:3? Favouring Yoshi.

 

[DoH]

Sweet, Zelda vs Kirby is not fun at all

 

[JesusFreak]

Yoshi is decent against Kirby, but not that great. I would go with Pikachu. Pika ***** Kirby like no one's business.

easily 7.5:2.5 or 8:2 pika

 

[DoH]

Not chang or richard's kirby on DL64...:ries::

 

[Thomas Tipman]

would any of you think yoshi is a bane of C.falcon? i know its tough to say but when i play yoshi against falcon its easy to chase him with ftilts as utilt and uair can combo him easy. i havent seen much of this match up but anytime i play my friends falcon i dominate with yoshi.

 

[rmusgrave]

would any of you think yoshi is a bane of C.falcon? i know its tough to say but when i play yoshi against falcon its easy to chase him with ftilts as utilt and uair can combo him easy. i havent seen much of this match up but anytime i play my friends falcon i dominate with yoshi.

I noticed that also. Yoshi tends to have an advantage in this matchup IMO. He can DJC through a lot of CF's comboes, and has good comboes and KO moves on him as well. But then, I've never come up against SS3 Isai's C.Falcon before. 0_o


w00t! @M sig! XD

 

[Thomas Tipman]

nice sig, green eggs and spam love it!

 

[AmishTechnology]

Your Yoshi signature looks pretty.

Does Yoshi do any good against the... ICs?

 

[Unrefined]

I've come across a wicked CF whom loves to lcancel dair and fair alot, and just pummel my yoshi, has good mindgames as well, gets really close to me with an attack then double jumps, making me attack and wailing me with a knee, Yoshi can combo Falcon nicely though, its a 50/50 match up i'd say. No clear cut advantage IMO.

Ice-climbers from my experience aint that bad, especially since its soo easy to spike Nana (or popo if you switch colors) CPU doesnt really try to avoid a spike, i just like to dtilt into fair near edge and take out atleast Nana. Just dont get grabbed and you are ok id think.

 

[Werewolf]

I need PAL version so I can ROCK shiek...where can I get this version?

 

[Undrdog]

ask Ryoko. I think he was looking for a copy awhile back. he may have found a supplier.

 

[rmusgrave]

ask Ryoko. I think he was looking for a copy awhile back. he may have found a supplier.

Hehe. He's getting it from my local Peach player, Quetzalcoatl, in exchange for NTSC version 1.0. You could try eBay, or just try and contact a PAL smasher and pay them to buy and send a copy to you.

Yoshi can combo Falcon nicely though, its a 50/50 match up i'd say. No clear cut advantage IMO.

That, and it's extremely easy to edgeguard Falcon. Dtilt and dsmash's trajectories are perfect for edgeguarding, specifically against fast fallers. Your n-air can be used to stop him from going over you, and if you manage to use the d-air to drag him down below his up-b recovery, it's a guaranteed KO. (If you do that, be careful he doesn't bounce you off the wall with an up-b and KO you.)

Let's face it, it's no Peach matchup =D. If it's better than that, it's a good thing.

 

[Unrefined]

Yea, its a good matchup, both characters can really punish eachother given the chance. It's definitly better then a Peach match up though ^^

I've been beating all the peach players in my area lately, lots of practice with a real good peach player for hours getting beat up till i started to work on a different way fo fighting, hasnt failed yet, id say im 10-0 vs peach lately, but thats just me.