Yoshi v. Toon Link

[MJG]

^^^^This made me happy.

GTFO
jk <3

@firefly: LOL. You cant jump OoS? That like drops every ratio down by 5
Halberd would be a pretty decent stage for u against us then. Mansion wouldn't be too bad I guess? I wouldnt even bother using toonlink on it

 

[hadesblade]

GTFO
jk <3

@firefly: LOL. You cant jump OoS? That like drops every ratio down by 5
Halberd would be a pretty decent stage for u against us then. Mansion wouldn't be too bad I guess? I wouldnt even bother using toonlink on it

I wouldn't say halberd is good, because the flatform pretty much destroys our egg game, and your usmash (which has been tl's main kill move in all the matches I've played against them...) will kill early too.

Mansions a weird stage, but unless you main like dk zelda oli or rob EDIT: and lucario... (anyone else beastly there that im forgetting to mention?), its really pretty much just who has more experience on the stage. Though I really love the grab tech chases there... the pillars block projectiles but thats about it.

EDIT:omg forgot lucario in the broken at this stage list...

 

[TheOgbot]

MJG, is there anything specific about why you ban Distant Planet against Yoshi? Do we have a CG/Release that allows us to walk you off, or is it more that we can kill you earlier due to it's smallish nature?

Sorry if I seem like I'm asking a lot, I just want to get a better understanding of the MU since we have a really good TL in our area.

 

[hadesblade]

MJG, is there anything specific about why you ban Distant Planet against Yoshi? Do we have a CG/Release that allows us to walk you off, or is it more that we can kill you earlier due to it's smallish nature?

Sorry if I seem like I'm asking a lot, I just want to get a better understanding of the MU since we have a really good TL in our area.

I need to make a video showing all the reasons yoshi and distant planet is broken... for now lets just go with bottom of slope is a perfect camping spot for eggs, usmash, and sh uairs, the walkoff lets us abuse our amazing grab(fthrow cg on a few chars at low %'s, along with the grab release on a small number) , sliding ground pounds on the slope, when its raining you can DI towards the stage, and never fall off the edge. You can even do lagless uairs on it, the water will cancel the ending lag so you can do like 5 per second, the water grabs them then you spam uair as the water brings them towards you, in a state where they can't airdodge or anything. You can land it pretty easy. Though when you do land one, you fall off, it's easy to dj back up.

Back to the long list. If someone is camping that spot on the slope you can ece from the right edge of the main platform and land eggs right there. It's extremely easy to DR up the slope. fthrow->DR dsmash/dtilt owns at low %'s. The pellets give yoshi's djcit some use. You can grab a pellet by nairing the top of the plant, the boot will break the plant and somehow you will pick up the pellet with the same attack. ECE's on the bottom of the slope make it a lot safer than on a flat surface. It's a lot harder to punish being slope down, and if they jump they will land on the platform.

Anyway thats all I can think of for now, but I'm sure there's more... just try it out, its an awesome yoshi stage.

 

[TheOgbot]

thanks Hades, I've been picking mainly Rainbow Cruise and other stages based on the disadvantages of the characters, but I think I'll definitely give Distant Planet a try.

Thanks dude

 

[MJG]

thanks Hades, I've been picking mainly Rainbow Cruise and other stages based on the disadvantages of the characters, but I think I'll definitely give Distant Planet a try.

Thanks dude

Rainbow Cruise isnt terribly bad for toonlink at all.

And i dont think you guys can even Chain Grab us because of toonlinks floatyness.

I should have made this clearer...when i played on Distant Planet, I played on the stage with a character I rarely used and i didnt get completely owned...im pretty sure i took HB to a stock or two left. I was just surprised at some of the gay **** that was going on. But then i won on BF since it messed up his camp game (lol at yoshi trying to camp XD)

Edit: If for some odd reason I didn't ban this stage at a tourney. I would wait to get a few hits in and go Wario Mode because I wouldn't feel like getting out gayed. But i doubt i will forget.

Finish the match up.

Yoshi<TL
*School time*

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I see that most of your posts don't provide anything positive towards this discussion. We all know it is a hard match up, but if there is anything useful taht you have discovered that will help fight Toon Link, post it!

My 50 cents:

- I think that camping with Egg Toss can help.
- Bair is the only aerial I would use to hop over his proyectiles and surprise him. Otherwise, with the speed and priority of his aerials, we are going to get beaten.
- A quick Uair after a succesful Utilt can get him. Uair in general is usable but has to be surprising.
- Bait him into using Dair (and don't think you can beat this move) and spot dodge then punish with Dsmash or Bomb according to position.
- Rely on Dtilt to attack from a distance.
- When he is in the air, beware of Dair and try vertical egg tossing.
- Dash grab and Draconic Egg lay mindgames are useful.
- The same way you should do against Marth, wait for him to miss and counterattack quickly.


I think that developing a strong way to edge guard him (avoid his boomerang) and spike him with Fair or Dair. There has to be something we can abuse on this department. I suggest we think about this. Maybe a super armored Nair can gimp him.

We should also develop a good tactic against Bair spamming. His speed and priority is really overwhelming when he does that. Maybe a stutter step is an answer. If we trade hits, he get the most damage (or even dies).

 

[Shiri]

Back air is hard because its easy to beat if they do it wrong, but who does it wrong, you know?

If for some reason they start back air when you're grounded, just up smash it (prediction) or forward tilt it (reaction).

If they're getting at you in the air, you can hope for a burst frame trade from neutral air. That's about it.

 

[Deleted member]

Egg camping shouldnt be really working unless they challenge you consistantly with like SH bomb to arrow.

I would assume foward tilt would be amazing against TL in general, being safe on block if spaced right, and a walk to foward tilt could **** up their zair game.

 

[mars16]

Toon links Fast, he should be able to reach Yoshi before he can even crack him with an egg

 

[Airborne]

Toon links Fast, he should be able to reach Yoshi before he can even crack him with an egg

toon link doesn't have a reason to approach....

 

[Shiri]

I think he's saying that throwing eggs is bad because of Toon Link's mobility.

Don't mistake having a good camp/runaway game for not needing to close space.

 

[indigestible_wad]

TL camp game > yoshi camp game, TL range~yoshi range(but TL has the disjointed hitboxes), TL attack speed > yoshi attack speed(lag). TL also has pretty easy counters to all of yoshi's kill moves. It's not an impossible matchup, but it's pretty gay imo.

 

[Airborne]

i think yoshi's aerial mobility might be able to out race tlink, so keeping a little to the air in order to prevent the closing of space might be possible.... of course, i'm not sure at all, so PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong. =\

 

[Delta-cod]

We can out run him in the air, until we run out of stage to run on.

 

[F-Tier Player]

I need to make a video showing all the reasons yoshi and distant planet is broken... for now lets just go with bottom of slope is a perfect camping spot for eggs, usmash, and sh uairs, the walkoff lets us abuse our amazing grab(fthrow cg on a few chars at low %'s, along with the grab release on a small number) , sliding ground pounds on the slope, when its raining you can DI towards the stage, and never fall off the edge. You can even do lagless uairs on it, the water will cancel the ending lag so you can do like 5 per second, the water grabs them then you spam uair as the water brings them towards you, in a state where they can't airdodge or anything. You can land it pretty easy. Though when you do land one, you fall off, it's easy to dj back up.

Back to the long list. If someone is camping that spot on the slope you can ece from the right edge of the main platform and land eggs right there. It's extremely easy to DR up the slope. fthrow->DR dsmash/dtilt owns at low %'s. The pellets give yoshi's djcit some use. You can grab a pellet by nairing the top of the plant, the boot will break the plant and somehow you will pick up the pellet with the same attack. ECE's on the bottom of the slope make it a lot safer than on a flat surface. It's a lot harder to punish being slope down, and if they jump they will land on the platform.

Anyway thats all I can think of for now, but I'm sure there's more... just try it out, its an awesome yoshi stage.

Aw man, I saw your match on DP ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH5YOhVXPTg ), I'm going to FS8, but it's a banned stage...

Does that grab release work on all or most characters?

Sorry, off-topic!

 

[Airborne]

We can out run him in the air, until we run out of stage to run on.

not out run him; out-maneuver him. ;D

 

[Delta-cod]

not out run him; out-maneuver him. ;D

Zair.

10Zairs.

 

[Talazala]

So, the zair's bad for us because we're usually in the air if we're going to advance on TL, and zair beats all of yoshi's aerials?
Am I close?

 

[Delta-cod]

Pretty much. It's an autocanceling disjointed aerial that can be performed out of an airdodge. It makes him quite difficult to approach in the air. However, it's not unbeatable, you just can't take it head on. You have to out maneuver it, which is difficult.

 

[Oh.]

I think this is one of the matchups were yoshi has to be aggressive to win

Toon Link can obviously outcamp us...he has three projectiles + zair, and theyre all pretty much lagless....we have eggs that are laggy

I think we just have to tank the damage from the projectiles and run in and get close...I feel like TL definitely has advantage in camping with projectiles and even in the air (which is where were supposed to be good)

Jabbing and upsmashing helps alot in this match. Since TL is pretty much always short hopping and shooting **** or throwing out bairs/fairs/nairs you can charge upsmash for a second so you dodge the hit and punish while hes floating for a second around you...and if you space it right yoshis upair can beat his dair

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't think we can directly camp Toon Link, but if we get him to the ledge it's very possible for us to camp him from mid-range-ish since he won't really be able to start his camp game going. However, it doesn't really last forever, good for maybe a couple of eggs.

Anyways, Edge guarding TL is key here. We want to get the kills on him early since we'll be taking a lot of damage from projectiles. Full Hop and throw an egg, then follow up on the hit or punish the air dodge. Don't let him back on stage easily, squeeze all the damage you can get out of him when he's off stage/on the ledge.

Also, if you're a stock up and at stupidly high percents, I recommend just trading eggs for arrows. At that point how much damage you have doesn't really matter and you're running the clock while putting damage on him. He has to approach you to kill you, so make sure to take advantage of that.

 

[MX778]

I just picked up Toon Link as a secondary a few days ago.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I don't think we can directly camp Toon Link, but if we get him to the ledge it's very possible for us to camp him from mid-range-ish since he won't really be able to start his camp game going. However, it doesn't really last forever, good for maybe a couple of eggs.

Anyways, Edge guarding TL is key here. We want to get the kills on him early since we'll be taking a lot of damage from projectiles. Full Hop and throw an egg, then follow up on the hit or punish the air dodge. Don't let him back on stage easily, squeeze all the damage you can get out of him when he's off stage/on the ledge.

Also, if you're a stock up and at stupidly high percents, I recommend just trading eggs for arrows. At that point how much damage you have doesn't really matter and you're running the clock while putting damage on him. He has to approach you to kill you, so make sure to take advantage of that.

Wow, you have said key things here. This can really help.

I am really studying this matchup because I think it is the hardest that I have faced.. When you are very far away you can try to rack up damage with egg toss. The egg travels faster than the arrow , boomerang, and the bomb cannot reach that far. If you see a short hop attack pattern by Tlink (usually done to land Bairs, Zairs and get close) , you can use slow eggs that land in front of you to disrupt (a strategy I also use to fight Marth). After you disrupt them you can go for a Dash grab or Dash Usmash. You have to overwhelm Tlink with your aerial mobility which is better than his. Egg Lay (and its Draconic version) is pretty useful. Controlling your Fsmash with stutter step can help for the kill. I think it works to bait Tlink into using moves like Dash Usmash, Dair, Z (on land), Fsmash and punish. Charging a Fsmash or Usmash to trade hits with him while he hops on you is also smart. Going for quick Fairs to spike and alternating with Egg tosses while he is recovering works well. Take a look at the best Yoshi I've seen and how he fights against a pretty good Tlink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoPqZfkikVQ

 

[Delta-cod]

Does ANYBODY here have any way to not get completely ****** over by Toon Link? I'm feeling like he's our absolute worst MU at the moment.

 

[Deleted member]

Kay:

TL is a bad character. You cannot camp him and you cannot rush him. He is a hard character to read and he has some nice OOS sometimes (nair).
That said, he cant kill for **** (all he can do is running usmash), and yoshi can knock him around.
I dont know how to explain it, we should lose but yoshi can go hit for hit and win so thats what you gotta do.

 

[MJG]

TL doesn't even have to camp Yoshi to win this MU.

60:40 TL.

 

[Delta-cod]

Kay:

TL is a bad character. You cannot camp him and you cannot rush him. He is a hard character to read and he has some nice OOS sometimes (nair).
That said, he cant kill for **** (all he can do is running usmash), and yoshi can knock him around.
I dont know how to explain it, we should lose but yoshi can go hit for hit and win so thats what you gotta do.

Do you have any vids to help explain?

TL doesn't even have to camp Yoshi to win this MU.

60:40 TL.

Your input is much appreciated. That was quite possibly the most insightful post I have ever read in my time here at SWF.

 

[Noobicidal]

Your input is much appreciated. That was quite possibly the most insightful post I have ever read in my time here at SWF.

TL is awesome.

 

[indigestible_wad]

I disagree with tl only kill move being his upsmash. He always gets me with the forward smash because I'm horrible at SDI, and his forward and back aerials can most certainly kill at high enough percents. Most all of his moves have some ko potential, we just have to be stupid and run into them.

 

[Delta-cod]

TL's most reliable one is usmash. Bair isn't that good, Fair isn't that good if you DI it, Dsmash takes a while to kill, F smash is SDIable (although I sometimes mess up on this, someone please give me a concrete way to SDI this). The main moves I get killed by are: Usmash, Utilt, and Uair. Usmash for obvious reasons, although I usually get hit by it if I mess up. Utilt is faster and gets you if you're in TL's face. Uair gets you if you're in the air after being hit by a bomb or something. It EATS air dodges, and since you can't accelerate fast enough, you usually end up getting hit.

What you want to look out for on the ground is boomerang mostly, since that sets up a lot from there. If you're in the air, bombs are generally more dangerous for set ups. At least, I've been told this.

 

[MJG]

Your input is much appreciated. That was quite possibly the most insightful post I have ever read in my time here at SWF.

Ya. Seeing as how no Yoshi's asked for input, I thought that this much was at least required for your thread

 

[Yikarur]

I get killed by bair only against TLs I play too defensive to get killed by the others.
bair kills well at high percent (~180%) and TL doesn't have that problems to get us there.
it's very hard to kill with Yoshi against a TL who uses his projectiles at a very high level. Our kill moves suck so hard against him. I play against germanys best Toon Link a lot and every match is very very close and the victor gets decided by time out or by the very last hit and it's hard to get this very last hit with Yoshi. Harder for us than for Toon Link because of the lack of OoS Game.

Yoshi has definitly a hard time against Toon Link :/
If only Yoshi had his invincibility frames at the shield start-up like in the other smash games

 

[Delta-cod]

Here's a (What I thought) was a good match against TL. It went just like you said Yika, last hit essentially. If anyone wants to critique it or use it to learn the MU, please do so. Socks, if you'd mind telling me if I did anything wrong there since you understand the MU, tell me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRCKXLqQhVo

 

[Yikarur]

what are you going to do, if a ledge grab rule is applied? xD so much ECE xD

 

[Delta-cod]

what are you going to do, if a ledge grab rule is applied? xD so much ECE xD

Um, not use so many ECE. >_>''

I mean, this is why I wish there was no LGL. It really does ruin that aspect for me, and it makes me worry about the match actually running to time. If it does end up happening, I just gotta hope that the person I'm playing with is cool enough to realize that Yoshi's planking isn't even broken and easily stopped and won't call it, but that's a stretch.

The only times I've timed someone out were A) MK on Rainbow Cruise, not enough ledges for it to matter; and B) DDD on Castle Siege which was mainly section 2 and air camping. The DDD didn't even bother checking the Ledge grabs, bsc is a pretty cool guy.

 

[Yikarur]

we had a ledgegrab rule last SF and a ~medicore player who wore a hood all the time has checked the ledge grabs after I timed him out xD but germans are nasty.

my main strategy against Toon Link is to get the stock lead against Toon Link to camp the stock out while damaging him with weak fast hits which don't get punished. I timeout a lot against Toon Links xD

 

[Delta-cod]

we had a ledgegrab rule last SF and a ~medicore player who wore a hood all the time has checked the ledge grabs after I timed him out xD but germans are nasty.

my main strategy against Toon Link is to get the stock lead against Toon Link to camp the stock out while damaging him with weak fast hits which don't get punished. I timeout a lot against Toon Links xD

That was generally my plan. I tried for the time out near the end, but I wound up getting hit by his camp and ran out of time, I needed to do something.

 

[indigestible_wad]

Yoshi's planking is not a problem for ledgegrab limits, because once you get to three or four throws, you can't do anything else because it won't go over the platform, so you HAVE to get back up. People usually realize this and therefore don't care, or they don't realize it and therefore don't care. Besides, what's three or four divided by however much you're allowed? That's a good ten times at least you can grab the ledge and stay there. But meh, that's just my opinion. Other people probably plank more than I do.

 

[Delta-cod]

I like to use the ledge when I get pressured. Anytime I grab the ledge I tend to do at least a couple ECE. It's a HUGE problem for heavy campers like me.