Yoshi v. Ice Climbers

[Delta-cod]

**** eggs

**** THEM SO MUCH

u mad.

I like this MU because I'm expected to run away and play gay.

I don't like this MU because being forced to do it and the consequences of messing up are gay.

Ledge camping is so effective. I love my ledge. <3

 

[Deleted member]

**** eggs

**** THEM SO MUCH

I love you typh =)

And by edge play, i mean just sitting on the edge adn throwing eggs. Then u get up and get back on the ledge.


Doesnt always work but its good.

 

[Airborne]

heh, and the only way they can counter it is to either:
a) stand on the complete other side of the stage to not get hit
b) get up in front of yoshi and punish him

in order to advance on yoshi when he's at the level to perform option b, it requires shielding, which is the perfect bait for a rising egglay. =)

 

[Poltergust]

You know, most people STILL try to punish my ECEs and end up getting Egg Laid or d-aired -> n-aired. You'd think at this point in time they'd had learn to go to the other side of the stage. >_>

Sure, there are a few who know how to punish me correctly, but I play safe against them anyways.

 

[.Marik]

I love you typh =)

And by edge play, i mean just sitting on the edge adn throwing eggs. Then u get up and get back on the ledge.


Doesnt always work but its good.

I see, so we plank. I usually do that, but get impatient. Then I get ***** by relentless ChainGrabs. :\

You know, most people STILL try to punish my ECEs and end up getting Egg Laid or d-aired -> n-aired. You'd think at this point in time they'd had learn to go to the other side of the stage. >_>.

Yeah, I love doing that shit.

I taught some people the Yoshi matchup too well, though.

=[

 

[Deleted member]

Planking isnt necessary, and yes it is punishable with back air and they can run to the other side and desynch ice blocks.
It just helps piss off the IC player =)

 

[Sharky]

Work in progress, this line will be gone when I'm done editing the post. Yes, I've been mad lazy and neglected this for a while >.<

hi cura! /namesearch

note: forgive me if I seem to loop around a lot with my words, I'm kind of just typing things as they come up in my mind.

The IC's match-up is without a doubt my most-played match-up, as I play with cura at least a few days out of the week, usually. Admittedly, he doesn't use them much in friendlies, but we always do serious sets at the end of the day, where he does go IC's for at least a couple solid games. I still don't win most of the time, but that's because he knows me and yoshi really well at this point, and he is a better player than me in general. This is a key point here: I'm not an amazing player, I'm just good at the match-up, and mash really really freaking fast. Emphasis on the second part, a tutorial of which I'll also include.

I did get to test out my mu knowledge against other IC's at Apex, however, and went last hit in a set against meeep, having a lot of fun in the process, as well as beating a few other ICs in mms. (remix, you're free!) =) So here we go, my unabridged opinion on the mu (possibly abridged if you read this too early lol, ima finish this up tonight):

Stage selection is always the first part of a match, so let's start there. Ice Climbers don't like platforms. Personally, my two favorite stages against IC's are Yoshi's Island, and Battlefield. Yoshi's Island has one long platform in the middle that tilts back and forth, which Yoshi can maneuver around really well to camp them. It is a small stage, however, which generally is an advantage for IC's, because they want to close the distance on you as quickly as possible to try to get a grab. However, the other plus on this stage is the irregular ground, which can help to mess up chain grabs. Of course we also have all of our slope shenanigans here to employ against them.

Battlefield is probably my favorite of the two, because of the way the platforms are situated. If you manage to separate nana, BF helps a LOT with juggling, with the two distinct platform heights. Of course, You won't always want to go for vertical kills, so this isn't everything, but the platforms are also really good for moving around to avoid the ICs. It's also bigger than Yoshi's, allowing for more abuse of Yoshi's mobility.

A lot of people like smashville against ICs, because of the moving platform allowing you to camp on it while it is offstage. However, there are a few things going against you here. First off, sv is small and flat, perfectly ideal for ICs playstyle. Secondly, as soon as that platform gets back onstage, you are forced to take to the air, in which time they can force you into a bad situation because you are in their part of the field now, horizontally speaking, and you aren't guarding that platform anymore. Again, this is just a personal opinion, but I really don't think we should be taking ICs to smashville when there are much better camping starter stages out there. Sadly, we aren't MK and can't scrooge ICs. You guys are welcome to tell my why you think I'm wrong on this, though.

Now that game one is starting, what do we do? There are multiple approaches we can take in this match-up. Obviously, platforms are our best friend here. And camping is our middle and last name. Together, the two combine beautifully. Basically, you get on the platform. You know that they are going to try to shark you with uairs, but that's just one move, and you know it's coming, you just need to predict when and where. Yoshi has such amazing mobility that we can maneuver around these uairs pretty well and get a punish in there to boot. Also if they aren't directly below us and aren't expecting it we can drop with an aerial for a really quick transition to nana **** mode.

As you probably already know the key here is to separate the two climbers so you can gimp one or the other, usually nana first. Now the trick here is to put on climber in a vulnerable position without in turn making yourself vulnerable to the other IC. This is where grabs and egg-lays that we love so much become complicated to use, because of their end-lag. If the IC expects that one is going to be grabbed, they can just prepare to punish with the other, usually resulting in a reset, which is not good for us. So like everything we do in the mu, the element of surprise is key. Don't get read, cause it will hurt you.

This is not to deter you from ever grabbing or egg laying because they are really useful. Whenever you can separate the two, do it. In my experience, the solo popo, or sopo, is almost always playing at his worst when he is trying to get nana back, and we need to take advantage of this. Of course if nana is separated you want to pay particular attention to her, but don't ignore popo because you can get some free damage in there too while he's occupied with reunion.

Key Nana Habits:

1. When you knock popo off-stage, she will ALWAYS full-up offstage after him. In the case of you throwing him off, I like to jump after her and nair her further offstage. In my experience our fair is too slow to hit her with because she will just footstool you =(

2. Like your typical cpu, she will airdodge when hit. Just hit her after the airdodge =D

3. Uair juggling comes super easy with her, as long as you can handle popo.

4. This isn't a habit but still really important: popo can resynch with her from a surprisingly far distance with either squall hammer or their up-b. If you think you have nana ledge-hogged, you probably don't because of this, just hit her again, stage spike her with a nair or something.

post to be continued later, but there's a lot more to go!

 

[FrozenHobo]

Stage selection is always the first part of a match, so let's start there. Ice Climbers don't like platforms.

wuh? since when?

 

[Shiri]

HEYHEYHEY











Quiet, you.

 

[Deleted member]

Its not that ICs dont like platforms, its just that yoshi does much better on BF than flat stages.

Sharky, with his vast experience of losing to cura

 

[Deleted member]

Its not that ICs dont like platforms, its just that yoshi does much better on BF than flat stages.

Sharky, with his vast experience of losing to cura, shares his wisdom
<3

 

[Sharky]

hey, shush you =P

and it did help delta beat future =)

 

[Delta-cod]

Its not that ICs dont like platforms, its just that yoshi does much better on BF than flat stages.

Sharky, with his vast experience of losing to cura

Its not that ICs dont like platforms, its just that yoshi does much better on BF than flat stages.

Sharky, with his vast experience of losing to cura, shares his wisdom
<3

Lol double post.

hey, shush you =P

and it did help delta beat future =)

That it did. Your coaching was very helpful. First time playing a good ICs.

Well, besides Lain (namesearch?) the set before.

 

[Airborne]

Well, besides Lain (namesearch?) the set before.

His name is too short to be namesearched I think; I can't quite remember the character requirement in order to search.

But yeah, what that random dude meant, in the pursuit of criticizing Sharky's statement about IC's relationship with platforms, is that Ice Climbers love platforms due to the fact that:

a) allows them to string/shield pressure someone above them with uair, one of their best moves... I think....
b) can easily get a free grab off of you by predicting that you'll land on the platform and attempt to shield their "sharking" attempts with uair and the likes
c) I guess it can help them mix-up their recovery? o.O

IMO, Battlefield is definitely a better stage in this MU, since it allows us to mix-up our vertical recoveries as we descend, but there's less stage to run away from the dynamic duo. If you're going to platform camp/air camp/camp/play you always do for this MU, keep in mind that the platforms are not only a blessing, but can be a free grab for ICs if they read your attempts to safely land on the platform.

HOWEVER, also keep in mind that you can just fall THROUGH the platform as a mix-up, although that would be for Yomi 3 purposes exclusively.

Edit: Also, Sharky, if Lylat is to be the most aerial oriented stage out of the OG 5 neutrals, what would make it a no-go against the ICs? Do they have anything against us here necessarily? Just asking for possibility's sake.

Edit Edit: ANOTHER QUESTION: What happens, in the scenario that you knock Popo off stage with a throw or something, that you egglay Nana when she performs her FH offstage after popo? How long does it take for her to break out, and does she always DI towards him?

 

[Judo777]

His name is too short to be namesearched I think; I can't quite remember the character requirement in order to search.

But yeah, what that random dude meant, in the pursuit of criticizing Sharky's statement about IC's relationship with platforms, is that Ice Climbers love platforms due to the fact that:

a) allows them to string/shield pressure someone above them with uair, one of their best moves... I think....
b) can easily get a free grab off of you by predicting that you'll land on the platform and attempt to shield their "sharking" attempts with uair and the likes
c) I guess it can help them mix-up their recovery? o.O

IMO, Battlefield is definitely a better stage in this MU, since it allows us to mix-up our vertical recoveries as we descend, but there's less stage to run away from the dynamic duo. If you're going to platform camp/air camp/camp/play you always do for this MU, keep in mind that the platforms are not only a blessing, but can be a free grab for ICs if they read your attempts to safely land on the platform.

HOWEVER, also keep in mind that you can just fall THROUGH the platform as a mix-up, although that would be for Yomi 3 purposes exclusively.

Edit: Also, Sharky, if Lylat is to be the most aerial oriented stage out of the OG 5 neutrals, what would make it a no-go against the ICs? Do they have anything against us here necessarily? Just asking for possibility's sake.

Edit Edit: ANOTHER QUESTION: What happens, in the scenario that you knock Popo off stage with a throw or something, that you egglay Nana when she performs her FH offstage after popo? How long does it take for her to break out, and does she always DI towards him?

Lylat allows them to plat cancel which can give them free grabs on plats. other than that i cant think of a reason.

 

[Teh Future]

yoshi vs ice climbers:

crush their hopes and dreams by timing them out after they can't CG you

Dx

 

[Delta-cod]

yoshi vs ice climbers:

crush their hopes and dreams by timing them out after they can't CG you

Dx

I don't remember timing you out...

Although I was thinking about it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I play this one occasionally, but there is one thing that ive learned from playing ICs, and it's a ground breaking and intensly helpful tip. Dont. Get. Grabbed.

 

[bigman40]

No, that's isai's tip.

Don't jump into the ****.

 

[Teh Future]

I don't remember timing you out...

Although I was thinking about it.

mmm i think you did actually win with like 3 seconds left or something....

btw who did you beat to make it out of pools? I had already lost to zucco and im horrible against marth + we had lain so i pretty much stopped trying after i lost game 1 to you =(

 

[Sharky]

His name is too short to be namesearched I think; I can't quite remember the character requirement in order to search.

But yeah, what that random dude meant, in the pursuit of criticizing Sharky's statement about IC's relationship with platforms, is that Ice Climbers love platforms due to the fact that:

a) allows them to string/shield pressure someone above them with uair, one of their best moves... I think....
b) can easily get a free grab off of you by predicting that you'll land on the platform and attempt to shield their "sharking" attempts with uair and the likes
c) I guess it can help them mix-up their recovery? o.O

IMO, Battlefield is definitely a better stage in this MU, since it allows us to mix-up our vertical recoveries as we descend, but there's less stage to run away from the dynamic duo. If you're going to platform camp/air camp/camp/play you always do for this MU, keep in mind that the platforms are not only a blessing, but can be a free grab for ICs if they read your attempts to safely land on the platform.

HOWEVER, also keep in mind that you can just fall THROUGH the platform as a mix-up, although that would be for Yomi 3 purposes exclusively.

Edit: Also, Sharky, if Lylat is to be the most aerial oriented stage out of the OG 5 neutrals, what would make it a no-go against the ICs? Do they have anything against us here necessarily? Just asking for possibility's sake.

Edit Edit: ANOTHER QUESTION: What happens, in the scenario that you knock Popo off stage with a throw or something, that you egglay Nana when she performs her FH offstage after popo? How long does it take for her to break out, and does she always DI towards him?

By what I said I did in fact mean that we fare better on platforms than they do lol. I'll edit and such later I guess /lazy

and 4 characters should be enough to namesearch, I believe we've namesearch summoned him in the upstate thread before. lain lain lain hi lain

Lylat: I'm so used to PS1 being the starter in my region that I didn't include it in my analysis lol. I think it's a decent stage, but I still think I prefer bf's platform setup to lylat's. However, the sloping feature of the stage can come in handy for us. though it can hurt our gr upsmash as well. I think I'd like it about as much as yoshi's, probably would still pick yoshi's though over it.

yes I'm lazy, sorry for the lack of update =P

 

[Delta-cod]

mmm i think you did actually win with like 3 seconds left or something....

btw who did you beat to make it out of pools? I had already lost to zucco and im horrible against marth + we had lain so i pretty much stopped trying after i lost game 1 to you =(

I beat you, Kadaj, (namesearch?) and dextasmurf.

Question to you, my good sir, is: Why did you pick Battlefield every time?

Back to ICs, Lylat is probably one of our best stages for this MU. I love that stage. The slope hardly ruins with our Usmash on the ICs, and can potentially mess with their CG. It's also larger than BF/Yoshi's, and has 3 easy to access platforms.

 

[Teh Future]

i dont think you should pick lylat unless they are using hobbling (footstool > ice block) to CG you. ICs can cancel jumping through the platforms since they are moving which lets them get grabs easier (although CGing yoshi on platforms is lols). i think if you are comfortable on any gay stage like brinstar or rainbow to go there, unless you are afraid of them swicthing characters

also our set was on smashville both games?

i usually counterpick neutrals b/c ic are best there and im most comfortable there...

 

[Delta-cod]

i dont think you should pick lylat unless they are using hobbling (footstool > ice block) to CG you. ICs can cancel jumping through the platforms since they are moving which lets them get grabs easier (although CGing yoshi on platforms is lols). i think if you are comfortable on any gay stage like brinstar or rainbow to go there, unless you are afraid of them swicthing characters

also our set was on smashville both games?

i usually counterpick neutrals b/c ic are best there and im most comfortable there...

I'm really not too sure on how fast the platform cancel is, but I really don't intend on staying on a platform too long against ICs because Uair is gay and does good damage (I think). Lylat is also my favorite stage, it's my number 1 CP.

I forced SV game 1 since I watched your other set and you got BF on striking and then CP'd BF when you lost. I think I banned BF on you as well, but I'm not too sure on that. I usually ban Brinstar because I'm afraid of pocket Meta Knights and Yoshi is terrible on Brinstar.

Against ICs, I'd probably pick Halberd since it provides us with ledge options, a good platform (do ICs plat cancel well there?), and a smaller ceiling for our primarily vertical KOs. It's also pretty large when you land onto the ship.

 

[Sharky]

yes Halberd is a really good stage aganst ICs.

platform canceling is pretty instant, there's a good chance someone proficient with it could get a grab on you with it at least once. Just keep jumping lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

yes Halberd is a really good stage aganst ICs.

platform canceling is pretty instant, there's a good chance someone proficient with it could get a grab on you with it at least once. Just keep jumping lol.

Well duh. I hate staying on platforms anyways.

 

[Delta-cod]

Bump to renew discussion with potentially updated opinions.

I think our best neutral for this MU is SV now. The moving platform really save us when we're on the ledge, and provides us with mobile platform options that the ICs can't really keep up with. I feel uncomfortable on BF/YI platforms against the ICs. Lylat's okay, but I got ***** last time I went there by ice block shenanigans with the slopes, so it's not my favorite either.

 

[Poltergust]

I'm perfectly fine fighting them on any stage (except for FD, of course). Speaking of stages, basically any of Yoshi's counterpick stages destroys ICs. Halberd, Frigate, Rainbow Cruise... it's extremely difficult for ICs to win on any of these stages.

You know, if it wasn't for Yoshi's Egg Lay I'd probably think the match-up's in ICs favor. IT'S SO GOOD at separating them.

 

[bigman40]

Spaced wavebounced Egglays give ICs no options to really approach cleanly.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I actually love SV against them. I used to think BF has to be the best, but SV feels better for some reason.

Egg lay *****, and if you build up damage on Nana while in the egg, a normal hit will send Nana extra far and separate them there as well. I remember a match where I egg laid Nana 4 times in one stock and Usmash/uair'd the egg it as much as possible, then while on the ledge, up b camped and hit nana way further with just a single egg.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm perfectly fine fighting them on any stage (except for FD, of course). Speaking of stages, basically any of Yoshi's counterpick stages destroys ICs. Halberd, Frigate, Rainbow Cruise... it's extremely difficult for ICs to win on any of these stages.

You know, if it wasn't for Yoshi's Egg Lay I'd probably think the match-up's in ICs favor. IT'S SO GOOD at separating them.

And then you realize most ICs have pocket MKs.

 

[bigman40]

And then you realize everyone has pocket MKs.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[Poltergust]

I 2-stocked Lain's MK on Rainbow Cruise, so I'm fine there.

 

[Delta-cod]

Play more MKs competent at the MU plz.

Most stages could be good CPs for us if MK didn't exist. For directly the ICs, our CPs destroy them, but ICs have pocket MK anyways, so it's a moot point.

 

[Poltergust]

You're right. It is a moot point. There is no reason to talk about MK in a Yoshi vs. Ice Climbers discussion.

 

[Delta-cod]

Actually, there is because it relates to our ability to CP. Just saying.

 

[Poltergust]

No, because then you'd be able to apply that to ANY match-up, and then we'll not get anywhere.

For example, let's say that I'm fighting Fox and I win the first round and lose the second round. I counterpick Sheik in the 3rd round and get a very easy win. Does that mean Yoshi does well against Fox? Of course not, because Sheik has no bearing on Yoshi vs. Fox.

Let's keep the discussion on Yoshi vs. Ice Climbers, please.

 

[Delta-cod]

No, because then you'd be able to apply that to ANY match-up, and then we'll not get anywhere.

For example, let's say that I'm fighting Fox and I win the first round and lose the second round. I counterpick Sheik in the 3rd round and get a very easy win. Does that mean Yoshi does well against Fox? Of course not, because Sheik has no bearing on Yoshi vs. Fox.

Let's keep the discussion on Yoshi vs. Ice Climbers, please.

That's a character CP, not a stage CP. The fact is, is that most of our preferable CPs against many characters simply do not exist in the metagame due to the prevalence of MK secondaries, ESPECIALLY among IC mains.

When you CP a Snake to Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar, 9/10 times you'll be fighting a MK instead.

When you CP a Snake to, say, Pictochat or Castle Siege, 9/10 times you'll still be fighting Snake.

Only the less "janky" stages can be CP'd against Ice Climbers, because they won't feel compelled to switch to MK, which completely switches the table around. The neutrals, Halberd, Delfino, Pokemon Stadium, POSSIBLY Frigate, Castle Siege, PS2, and Pictochat are the only true CPs for this MU.

Pictochat isn't a bad idea because even if they do swap, we have a giant *** stage to beat MK on. If they do stay, we have a giant stage to run on, as well as all the drawings to interfere with the CGs and general flow of their pressure.

Delfino is okay for the unsolid flooring since it gives us greater ledge options. We also get some nice boosts on some transformations (the multi-island, the stairways, rooftop, and shine tower transformations all give us better terrain to maneuver around), and some riskier options on others (water stalling).

Halberd is good for the flying platform segment, but once you land I find that there aren't enough options to use to avoid the grab.

Pokemon Stadium is large and has good transformations to break up the grab threat.

Frigate messes with their recovery as well as our own, but I don't like the ground too much there. It's one of my least favorite stages, personally.

Castle Siege has a close first transformation, a free runaway second portion, and a tilted FD third part. The transition parts are dangerous as well due to it being completely flat. Not the best idea imo.

PS2 is small in general, but the transformations are weird enough to give us the edge. The air one is probably really good for us to juggle or escape, and the treadmill one is just awful for the CG as well. Ground stage is , and ice stage we have slope gimmicks and sliding gimmicks. Just be careful of uair pressure on this stage if you're platform camping because it's small.

 

[~Firefly~]

I'd like to note that the last ICs I played in tournament CPed me to Castle Siege after I banned FD; I didn't expect it, but the 3rd transformation made it tricky to stay safe from grabs, and the second transformation was kind of a pain when I didn't have a lead because he'd just camp out between the statues, making it difficult to do much of anything to him. I still won the match, but it's a bad place to CP them to IMO.

As a side note, this IC main didn't have a pocket MK; just a pocket Wario.

 

[Poltergust]

Even so, Delta, there is no guarantee that they'd switch to MK (actually, I'd prefer it if they do since it's not their main; makes it easier for me, really) if we take them to RC. Which is why we shouldn't even be discussing this. Besides, what you're mentioning is also a character counterpick, just one that's based on the stage.

That said, I believe it's pretty obvious how awful the ICs are on this stage. They'd most likely ban it. I was surprised that Lain didn't ban it against me, actually.