Yoshi v. Bowser

[Delta-cod]

Using the old thread...

Uh, he's pretty strong horizontally in the air but not so much vertically. If you get him above you, destroy him. He's fat, but jugglable, and we can camp him well because he's slow (but don't do that all the time learn to chain all of you).

If you're above him, just go to the side in the air and get down. Do NOT air dodge out of fear. You will get UAIR'D. I suggest you learn the animation for it, since I believe you can dodge it on reaction.

DI is important. Don't get killed early by failing to DI Fair/Bair.

If you're up a stock, and you get klawed, try and force a Bowsercide. It's probably not very practical, but if it works, it'd be pretty funny.

Ftilt can stuff our air approaches pretty well. Fortress is an amazing OOS option. Bowser has a bad spotdodge, so they like to sit in their shield, so egg lay is extremely useful in this MU.

If you get caught in the firebreath, DJ and Nair out. Punish him for it. It's a bad move.

His recovery is pretty eh, try and gimp him. His recovery is similar to DK's.

 

[Sunnysunny]

His recovery is pretty eh, try and gimp him. His recovery is similar to DK's.

Thisthisthis. Its similar to DK's, but much much more gimpable. If bowsers resorting to recover with whirling fortress hes as good as dead. Run out there and N-air him.

 

[B!squick]

Thisthisthis. Its similar to DK's, but much much more gimpable. If bowsers resorting to recover with whirling fortress hes as good as dead. Run out there and N-air him.

Better yet, run out, bait the Fortress and FAir spike for the win.

It's predictable, sure, what character's recovery isn't to a degree, but Fortress has alot of priority. And proper DI will put Bowser more toward the upper corner of the screen and let's face it, Yoshi isn't going to be hitting him very far anyway unless the move is fresh and Bowser is at a fairly high percent.

So the real question is, does Yoshi's UAir beat Aerial Bowser Bomb?

 

[MrEh]

Fortress eats moves for breakfast. Gimping Bowser is not as easy at it seems, and is completely reliant on Bowser not having his second jump. That being said, Yoshi wins this matchup pretty easily. It's quite simple.


1. Throw Eggs to force Bowser to approach.

2. Pivot grab him out of everything he does. If you can't grab him, throw more Eggs until you can.

3. CHAINGRAB LOLOLOLOLOLOL

4. Edgeguard him to hell.

5.

So the real question is, does Yoshi's UAir beat Aerial Bowser Bomb?

What doesn't? lol

 

[Flayl]

Uh, Bowser can drop low enough so Yoshi can't really edge-guard him, definitely not with FAir at least. Bowser's recovery isn't well protected, but it's waaaay more flexible than DK's.

 

[~Firefly~]

Fortress eats moves for breakfast. Gimping Bowser is not as easy at it seems, and is completely reliant on Bowser not having his second jump. That being said, Yoshi wins this matchup pretty easily. It's quite simple.


1. Throw Eggs to force Bowser to approach.

2. Pivot grab him out of everything he does. If you can't grab him, throw more Eggs until you can.

3. CHAINGRAB LOLOLOLOLOLOL

4. Edgeguard him to hell.

5.

That sounds exactly like the Yoshi/Ganon match-up. Cool.

Uh, Bowser can drop low enough so Yoshi can't really edge-guard him, definitely not with FAir at least. Bowser's recovery isn't well protected, but it's waaaay more flexible than DK's.

Sounds to me like that would be a great time to Dair you.

 

[Flayl]

Bah you quoted me before I had time to edit. The first part of what I said, as is, is completely false.

What I should have said is Bowser can mixup his recovery more than DK. We can actually FAir or Klaw while coming back, and we're not dead if we airdodge.

I really have no clue as to what DAir has anything to do with the scenario we're talking about (Bowser recovering from offstage -> Yoshi jumps/runs off to edgeguard with an aerial and then DJ back to the edge/stage -> Bowser airdodges and still has enough vertical leeway to make it back to the stage, even if it's not the ledge)

 

[Delta-cod]

Uh, Bowser can drop low enough so Yoshi can't really edge-guard him, definitely not with FAir at least. Bowser's recovery isn't well protected, but it's waaaay more flexible than DK's.

That sounds exactly like the Yoshi/Ganon match-up. Cool.



Sounds to me like that would be a great time to Dair you.

I really have no clue as to what DAir has anything to do with the scenario we're talking about (Bowser recovering from offstage -> Yoshi jumps/runs off to edgeguard with an aerial and then DJ back to the edge/stage -> Bowser airdodges and still has enough vertical leeway to make it back to the stage, even if it's not the ledge)

Your scenario: Bowser dropping low enough so Yoshi can't really edge-guard him.

Firefly's Solution: Dair Bowser.

Works for me. And if you're dropping low enough where we HAVE to DAir you, I highly doubt you'll make it back if we connect.

 

[Flayl]

What I meant was going low is an on-the-spot option: Something you do when Yoshi jumps out at you, not the default way for Bowser to return to the stage.

I need to test SDI'ing up and fortress'ing against an offstage DAir, but to tell the truth I still don't understand what the positioning of this DAir is.

 

[Delta-cod]

What I meant was going low is an on-the-spot option: Something you do when Yoshi jumps out at you, not the default way for Bowser to return to the stage.

I need to test SDI'ing up and fortress'ing against an offstage DAir, but to tell the truth I still don't understand what the positioning of this DAir is.

Bowser's pretty fat, so I'm not sure how effective SDI'ing up would be. I'm pretty sure it could work at lower percents.

When Yoshi jumps out at you, he can always just simply Dair and get you both ways. Of course, Bowser's recovery is much better than what I'm making it out to be, since he actually has forward protection, unlike DK. With good DI, you probably shouldn't get gimped often at all.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I fought a few bowser, but N-air always trades with the fortress and its hitbox lingers for quite awhile so airdodges can be punished. Really I think bowsers F-air is his best option if you can afford to do it. Seriously that things has some range on it.

Also F-air spiking for me is reaaallly unreliable. I only do it for style point.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Edge Guarding him is pretty easy but you probably wont get the kill if he's at low-mid%s. One things for sure tho if he's offstage you shouldn't ever let him back on without him taking about 20-30%

 

[Z'zgashi]

Fortress eats moves for breakfast. Gimping Bowser is not as easy at it seems, and is completely reliant on Bowser not having his second jump. That being said, Yoshi wins this matchup pretty easily. It's quite simple.


1. Throw Eggs to force Bowser to approach.

2. Pivot grab him out of everything he does. If you can't grab him, throw more Eggs until you can.

3. CHAINGRAB LOLOLOLOLOLOL

4. Edgeguard him to hell.

5.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

When i fight the bowser guy in my area he just goes snake or toon link :D

 

[Flayl]

He's not a real Bowser guy then. Yoshi is nowhere near one of Bowser's worst matchups lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Then what can you do to us, cuz from my experience, my only damage comes from mistakes and bad edge guarding...

 

[Poltergust]

Bowser... really does terribly against Yoshi. I almost feel that Yoshi was tailor-made to counter Bowser (sort of like Lucario against Yoshi *ahem*). We have pivot-grabs, eggs, Egg Lay (basically the game-breaker of this match-up; Bowser is probably the most susceptible character to Egg Lay), u-air, and d-air. Bowser can't do much of anything if we throw out attacks to stop him.

He can't approach safely, he can't kill Yoshi early (I survived a fresh f-smash at 120%...), he's gimpable, he's juggable, he's huge, he's chain-grabbable (and the grab-release puts him in a REALLY bad position off-stage), and his up-B isn't nearly as useful as in some other match-ups due to Egg Lay. I used to think this was a 60:40 match-up, but now I think that it's even worse than that...

 

[Flayl]

Extremely simplified: FTilt and not run into pivot-grabs and egglay. Kill with UTilt.

 

[Sunnysunny]

If the yoshi plays really gay with eggs, pivot grabs, egg lays, and take advantage of out ability to gimp and juggle him so easily i'd say this is 70:30.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Fire is unstoppable 90:10 Bowser

 

[Z'zgashi]

Extremely simplified: FTilt and not run into pivot-grabs and egglay. Kill with UTilt.

Egg lay ftilt, dont jump above bowser therefore dont get hit by utilt. GGs.

 

[Flayl]

Egg lay ftilt

There is some terrible spacing going on here

dont jump above bowser therefore dont get hit by utilt. GGs.

Uhhhh, lol? You do know UTilt doesn't only hit above Bowser right.

Anyway I've already seen the mentality here is "he's big and fat 70:30 us" which I 've seen in so many theorycraft matchup discussions before I'm not going to bother.

 

[Delta-cod]

There is some terrible spacing going on here

Uhhhh, lol? You do know UTilt doesn't only hit above Bowser right.

Anyway I've already seen the mentality here is "he's big and fat 70:30 us" which I 've seen in so many theorycraft matchup discussions before I'm not going to bother.

Um, Egg Lay is a disjointed grab. If we space Egg Lay, and you space Ftilt, Egg Lay will beat them head to head every time.

Now, that's silly, because the odds of that happening are stupid. You're also failing to realize that you have to approach in this MU, and you're slow, and pretty much everything you try to approach with is ***** by pivot grab. We can play incredibly safe in this MU.

Eggs are SO easy to hit Bowser with because he's so big. It makes it so that we can egg you at near point blank range and be relatively safe with a proper toss.

We CG you, which puts you off stage in a bad position. And considering how easy it is to grab Bowser, it's really not hard to imagine this happening several times a match.

All we have to do in this MU to win easily is camp. Don't go forward, always camp. Don't try for the kill, just keep racking up that damage. Eventually, we'll just land a kill with an anti-air Usmash, a Nair, an Uair if we try to juggle you, etc.

I really don't see what Bowser has to really mess with Yoshi in this MU. At all. And I really do love Bowser.

 

[MrEh]

People should just use my post as the matchup description.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Here is what scatz says:

I would find this matchup to be at least 60:40 our advantage to being a hard counter on Bowser (70:30). Bowser has a lot of trouble getting close enough to Yoshi without getting grabbed or taking damage. His shield gives him the power to counter all moves with UpB (except for spaced grabs). The filp side is that when Yoshi starts trying to space to be just out of range, Bowser can use Fsmash to punish your spacing (he can punish Ike's Fair perfectly spaced). For the most part, you want to keep and sustain a lead since Bowser can effectively stuff approaches. The moment you lose the lead and approach, you'll be getting annoyed by Klaw and UpB.

I don't really know what to say when you're camping, but don't attempt to trade in the air. You mainly want to stay grounded and abuse pivot grabs, light egg tosses, and chaingrabs to get damage and keep stage control. When you get him to killing percents, just wait until you find a good enough opening. If he gets in and tries to combats you, go for the jab > down-b. If he's going low to sweetspot the edge, then grab the ledge and fall off and Uair him (you easily got about a 50% chance to land it).

Playing patient and only planning to frustrate Bowser will make this match much more simpler than trying to play differently.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To me this MU is 65:35 Yoshi's Favor.
Since SA doesn't have Bowser mains (If i'm correct) I play CPU's/Online and they are afraid to approach since they know I'll Pivot grab them. Bowser's FSmash is what usually gets me whenever I played Online Bowsers. Kinda hard predicting what A Bowser will do if you chase after him while in the Air, DAir or NAir Or ForwardB. Aside from that he has no projectiles, but his Fire makes up for it and Yoshi can still stay away from that and probably Egg throw him to hell. Part of Scatz part with the Powersheilding is already covered, and same for Jabs.

 

[Z'zgashi]

All right, those of you yoshis who are in the match up project (you know who you are! ...hopefully) go here to the group and submit ratios.

Anyways, continue

 

[Vex Kasrani]

6:4, 55:45 Yoshi adv

 

[Poltergust]

^Yup, that totally contributed to the discussion.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

^Yup, that totally contributed to the discussion.

Indeed, I give my experienced ratio's, not my experienced opinions, take it or leave it lul.

 

[Poltergust]

OK.

*leaves it*

Sorry, but I like to have justifications when it comes to giving match-up ratios. Just saying a ratio won't cut it.

 

[Deleted member]

I think yall are slightly underrating bowser. Obviously he has trouble approaching, but i think the real trouble is that bowser cannot land at all. Running grab will beat every option he has landing, and then the CG makes things rough for him. Bowser does have some nice punishes, and careless attacks on his shield will get punished kinda hard. I could be wrong but i dont think egg lay will beat ftilt, idk if bowsers hurtbox stays on the tip but i know ftilt is bowsers main weapon along with claw (gives bowser much needed mobility to avoid yoshis stuff).

Bowser has to play like ganon does in most matchups, moving around being safe until the opening presents itself, trying not to waste double jumps (cuz of grab on landing). Its uphill but certainly doable for bowser. I think that like they said yoshi cant really gimp bowser unless hes lost his 2nd jump, but eggs will hurt.

Edit: That said i think its 60:40-65:35. Bowser has to outplay yoshi by a fair margin to win, but at the same time, two even players should be having totally onesided matches.

 

[B!squick]

........ Beeeewwwwbbbbs......

I'm sorry, what were we talking about? Something about a dinosaur with a saddle and a turtle monster? o.o

 

[Sunnysunny]

I dunno I think there can be such a thing as too big bewbs.
Z you furvert you. :>
...
OH THE MATCH UP...right!
yea i have absolutely nothing to contribute to the bowser MU at this point. Honestly I think its settled by now. Between are eggs, pivot grab, egg lay, ability to juggle bowser, and chaingrab that put him off the stage in a bad position this is 70/30 65/34 in yoshis favor. I don't think bowser has any gay things on us so we can just camp and bait him to death. This seems like an incredibly simple match up on our side.