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Yoshi Match-Ups/Match-Up Chart

Who'll take the 5th spot?

  • Z'zgashi

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • Firefly

    Votes: 18 45.0%
  • MX778

    Votes: 13 32.5%

  • Total voters
    40

MX778

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I do somewhat a agree with Stocky on one thing though. When we approach him, there's gotta' be some kind of method to it. Some way that's going to help you stay in his face without getting **** on.

When in Falco's face (assuming that you're standing) and he goes for the short hop double lasers, Upsmash. Getting him in the airrr will destroy any sort of camping/stage control he has.

About Phatasm...I just roll backwards if I see it coming. lol If a phatasm is coming from offstage, you can just Nair it. Not too close though cause' 1/4 of his starting distance from that has invurnerablity frames. So, you'll have to space right. It shouldn't be hard though.
 

Delta-cod

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The risk/reward on approaching Falco is incredibly disproportionate. It's so easy for him to just landing laser > Jab over and over, and that alone shuts down a vast majority of our approaches. Even when we do get in on him, he has an incredibly easy time resetting, because we struggle to punish phantasm reliably.

Socks, phantasm sets up for kills in that it pops you up into an awkward position. Double jumping away or landing on a platform isn't a very good position to be in either. We still need to land against him.
 
D

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Falco is decently mobile, but most characters have a hard time punishing yoshi when hes landing from really high and has the whole stage to land because he can just pivot egg lay. Its obviously not perfect, but id argue falco has a pretty hard time punsihing our landings after a phantasm (i dont recall ever having a problem with that).

The thing is, i dont think the risk reward is that bad. The risk is that we take a bit of chip damage (assuming you arent spacing poorly and getting grabbed). The reward is stage positioning and potentially a lot of damage.

Do the falcos you play really just beat you with lazer->jab and phantasm? That seems hard to believe to be honest xD

And we arent getting anywhere with this discussion really.
I just dont think falco is that bad.
I have much more trouble with lucario and ROB and wolf.
And i bet if i playd a good toon link id have a lot of trouble with that too.
 

Lukingordex

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Can we discuss about the Ness MU? I agree with +0.

I never played this MU with Yoshi,but I played with Ness.
 
D

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Ness can abuse lots of yoshi's defensive options, nair beats our spotdodge, and ness kills yoshi pretty well.
On the other hand, yoshi forces the approach, can punish out of grabs with grab release to upsmash very well, which keeps us in it. Gimps on ness are rare but can happen i guess.
 

Lukingordex

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Also,we can´t forget that Ness has the second best spike on the game,Pk fire works very well,if used at the correct time.

Ness has a fun thing: he can use his Fsmash to beat eggs,but its not very effective like Lucas´ Fsmash because has to much lag.

Ness can have trouble to recover,he only have the double jump,PSI and Pk thunder,and yoshi eggs are capable to edgeguard Ness.

Yoshi will have problem to recover too,Ness can use his pk thunder to reach him,Yoshi really need to recover in a high height,if he recover by the edge,he can be a victim of Ness´ spike,nair,uair or fair...

Ness is forced to approach on this MU,his pk fire or pk thunder are good options to do this.

EDIT:Will be good if someone call YINK to help explaining this MU too.
 

ForwardAirRage!

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if possible i'd like some tips on the marth MU and the ice climbers MU.
haven't played them much and would like to know how to approach/camp/when not to camp/avoid being *****. XD lol
 

Delta-cod

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The Ice Climbers match up is literally about not getting grabbed. You have to run for days and just get chip damage on them until you can separate them and kill Nana. Then, you either choose to kill Popo or time him out.

The ledge is your friend against the ICs. ECE messes them up pretty well because of Nana's shield delay, and we have good options for getting onstage past them as well (at least, not getting grabbed/killed when attempting to return, which is fine by me). Ledge drop > DJ whatever and Ledge Hop > DJAD are extremely good at getting past their ledge traps.

Otherwise, abuse safe options against them. Mix up pivot grabs with PURE Bair rushes so you don't land anywhere near their shield. Egg Lay is a godsend when landing. Against SoPo, we have GR > Usmash for the kill.

For Marth, the MU at neutral all comes down to dealing with his spacing options. Basically, we cannot DIRECTLY beat out Fair or Nair or whatever. We have a few options, however. We can throw eggs to cover the aerial option, although he can read this and simply dash towards us and dash attack/Dancing Blade. We can also preempt the aerial in two ways: running Usmash or Bair rush. Both need to be timed so that Marth doesn't have enough time to prepare himself to retreat and swing Fair to stuff us out. There's an interesting spacing to it, but it's difficult to describe, so you'll need to play around with it. Usmash can also be used to duck under a Fair swing and punish, on occasion. Our third approach option is simply dash grabbing him as he lands. I recommend throwing him towards the ledge so we can ledge trap him.

Defensively, Pivot Grab isn't as powerful as normal unless the Marth commits SUPER hard. The arc of Fair hits our blindspot reliably, so you usually need to overspace your grab by running back further than usual. Dancing Blade stall also helps him avoid this.

If Marth gets momentum on you, retreat as far as possible. The ledge is okay in this MU. ECE are a decent tool for racking damage, just be careful to avoid getting Fsmashed on the ledge for it. Getting off the ledge can be kinda tricky, but our standard options are decently effective. Marth ledge traps pretty well though, so expect some opposition.

Alternatively, when we get momentum on Marth, we need to try to carry it as far as possible. If Marth's back is to us, you pretty much can do what you want. If he's facing you, it's best not to jump right in because he can just Fair to swat you away. Try to force him to the ledge and then start frame trapping him with eggs. Lightly tossed eggs cover all his ledge options extremely well, and if he airdodges through you can just punish it.

The main trouble with the Marth match up comes in killing. Neither character has safe killing options on the other. This means that if you're a stock behind, you'll either get a revenge kill quickly, or eat a lot of damage trying to kill him to even up the stocks. DJ Armor > Nair is a good revenge killer if you need it. Either way, whoever takes the first stock in this MU usually ends up with a pretty large advantage for the rest of the match.

Also, last stock last hit against Marth SUCKS.
 

Sinister Slush

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Also, last stock last hit against Marth SUCKS.
This so damn hard... I don't know how many times Nike and I are always last stock and it all boils down to who can get the kill move first, which takes almost minutes till one of us lands it... kinda why I feel the Marth MU can possibly be almost even for us.

Also, I dunno about the ledge being our best friend against IC's since they can just start throwing their damn little icebergs at us. Unless you just mean getting there and immediately leaving it after the ECE.
 

Delta-cod

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Marth typically has an advantage in last stock last hit, IMO.

As far as ICs, I mean just using the ledge as an escape/camping tool, then running away. I tend to retreat to the ledge, throw eggs (you can get them between ice blocks, btw), jump onto a platform or something, pivot grab a couple times on stage, then retreat back to a platform or another ledge. Repeat until Nana is dead, then gay Popo.
 

Nikes

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Could anyone give me some advice on the Sheik MU? I've got a tournament tomorrow and one of the guys there has a very fast and nasty Sheik and I'd like to not get owned by them.^_^
Also, if anyone could offer tips on how to handle a campy spammy Toon Link that'd be very appreciated :p
 

Delta-cod

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For Sheik, you pretty much need to get rid of your fear. Instead of defensive options, pick your faster close combat ones, mainly jab, to deal with her. Sheik is tough to fight if you're easily overwhelmed, so my best advice is to just try to move quickly.

Needles are annoying, just shield if she has a fully charged needle storm and you're landing.

Be careful of DACUS. Jumping around a lot gets you hit by hit. If you get hit by vanish and get caught in the wind, aerial instead of trying to airdodge. It'll get you out of stun faster and safer.

Don't forget GR offstage > Fair. It's something to look out for when you're trapping her landings.

As far as fighting TL goes, just... find your way in. There's no real trick to it, although Bair rushing while you're expecting him to throw a boomerang is one of your best chances. We both struggle to kill the other, so if you have a lead, just play safely. His projectiles can't kill you. Just watch out for Zair > Usmash, and projectile setups. When in doubt, jump away. Uair eats airdodges, so be careful of that, too.
 

Lukingordex

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Hey Delta,can you list the characters who surfer to GR Offstage > Fair?
 

Nikes

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Thanks Delta, you've helped me a lot. I can definitely relate to getting hit by jumping around. Here I was convinced that I was keeping them guessing, whoops :p
Also the TL Usmash eating airdodges, is that because the Uair lasts longer than the airdodge?
Hey Delta,can you list the characters who surfer to GR Offstage > Fair?
Yes Delta, please. This info would be awesome.
 

Delta-cod

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Thanks Slush.

Uair eats airdodges because it's extremely long lasting, so if you dodge early, you'll still get hit by it anyways. It has little end lag too, I believe, so he can always just throw out another.
 

Nikes

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I visit those links fairly frequently but I can't find anything on GR Offstage > Fair. I'm probably not looking hard enough I guess. Thanks though.

Delta: Yeah I thought so.
 

Z'zgashi

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How do you reliably score kills against ZSS? Im having muchos problemos with getting rid of stocks against her lol. Also, on top of that, what are some good ways to get in on her through her pressure or outcamp her safely, how do we deal with her shield pressure if she catches us shielding, and how do land safely against her without needing to constantly hug the ledge?
 

ForwardAirRage!

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The Ice Climbers match up is literally about not getting grabbed. You have to run for days and just get chip damage on them until you can separate them and kill Nana. Then, you either choose to kill Popo or time him out.

The ledge is your friend against the ICs. ECE messes them up pretty well because of Nana's shield delay, and we have good options for getting onstage past them as well (at least, not getting grabbed/killed when attempting to return, which is fine by me). Ledge drop > DJ whatever and Ledge Hop > DJAD are extremely good at getting past their ledge traps.

Otherwise, abuse safe options against them. Mix up pivot grabs with PURE Bair rushes so you don't land anywhere near their shield. Egg Lay is a godsend when landing. Against SoPo, we have GR > Usmash for the kill.

For Marth, the MU at neutral all comes down to dealing with his spacing options. Basically, we cannot DIRECTLY beat out Fair or Nair or whatever. We have a few options, however. We can throw eggs to cover the aerial option, although he can read this and simply dash towards us and dash attack/Dancing Blade. We can also preempt the aerial in two ways: running Usmash or Bair rush. Both need to be timed so that Marth doesn't have enough time to prepare himself to retreat and swing Fair to stuff us out. There's an interesting spacing to it, but it's difficult to describe, so you'll need to play around with it. Usmash can also be used to duck under a Fair swing and punish, on occasion. Our third approach option is simply dash grabbing him as he lands. I recommend throwing him towards the ledge so we can ledge trap him.

Defensively, Pivot Grab isn't as powerful as normal unless the Marth commits SUPER hard. The arc of Fair hits our blindspot reliably, so you usually need to overspace your grab by running back further than usual. Dancing Blade stall also helps him avoid this.

If Marth gets momentum on you, retreat as far as possible. The ledge is okay in this MU. ECE are a decent tool for racking damage, just be careful to avoid getting Fsmashed on the ledge for it. Getting off the ledge can be kinda tricky, but our standard options are decently effective. Marth ledge traps pretty well though, so expect some opposition.

Alternatively, when we get momentum on Marth, we need to try to carry it as far as possible. If Marth's back is to us, you pretty much can do what you want. If he's facing you, it's best not to jump right in because he can just Fair to swat you away. Try to force him to the ledge and then start frame trapping him with eggs. Lightly tossed eggs cover all his ledge options extremely well, and if he airdodges through you can just punish it.

The main trouble with the Marth match up comes in killing. Neither character has safe killing options on the other. This means that if you're a stock behind, you'll either get a revenge kill quickly, or eat a lot of damage trying to kill him to even up the stocks. DJ Armor > Nair is a good revenge killer if you need it. Either way, whoever takes the first stock in this MU usually ends up with a pretty large advantage for the rest of the match.

Also, last stock last hit against Marth SUCKS.
thanks delta, that helped alot. although i see in the marth MU what i have trouble with the most is predicting when he is going to do that stupid up-b out of sheild for the kill option, i even tried being more campy spacing the eggs when he would try to fair me to keep him away but when he would mess up and i would go in for the punish it just seems like when i think ive gotten the kill.... up-b comes out XD of course that happens to me alot vs meta knight too...
 

Delta-cod

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How do you reliably score kills against ZSS? Im having muchos problemos with getting rid of stocks against her lol. Also, on top of that, what are some good ways to get in on her through her pressure or outcamp her safely, how do we deal with her shield pressure if she catches us shielding, and how do land safely against her without needing to constantly hug the ledge?
Um, we don't really reliably kill anyone we can't GR > Usmash/Fair.

Standard killing options apply to her, though. Usmash, Jab > Down B, Uair, Nair. You can try to mindgame a GR > Uair if she's trying to Down B out of the CG. My best advice is to just try to punish her landings, since she's kinnnnnnnda weak from below, but that's about it. Just gotta make the read/trap. =/

There's no trick to getting in on her that doesn't apply to every other match up. Just gotta get around side B/Dsmash/Neutral B, then try to keep the pressure up. Bair, jabs, and Egg Lay are still your main tools for this. Dash grab works too if the ZSS is jumpy. As far as camping goes, you can always just outcamp her, just make sure to stay out of Side B range, since it hurts. Playing safely/defensively is effective in general since she has some trouble dealing with our keep away game. Make sure you SHIELD neutral B and Side B, though. They kinda eat spotdodges.

Again, dealing with the shield pressure is standard. Try to mixup your OOS options. Roll away, spotdodge > jab, or shield drop > something. There's nothing really special here, but you shouldn't be shielding unless it's to block a Neutral B or Side B. Those are pretty safe to shield. If you're feeling stuck in shield, try this new trick I've been working out, which is basically shielding and unshielding repeatedly. Most people will see the unshield animation and go to hit you, so you'll be able to reshield that attack, then punish/roll away and reset/whatever.

As far as landing goes, ZSS juggles us HARD. The ledge really is your friend here, and you don't have too many other options. Uair is too good against us. Luckily, she doesn't ledge trap us too hard.

thanks delta, that helped alot. although i see in the marth MU what i have trouble with the most is predicting when he is going to do that stupid up-b out of sheild for the kill option, i even tried being more campy spacing the eggs when he would try to fair me to keep him away but when he would mess up and i would go in for the punish it just seems like when i think ive gotten the kill.... up-b comes out XD of course that happens to me alot vs meta knight too...
Yeah, Dolphin Slash is hard to deal with. I even get caught with it when I think I've made a good read, so don't feel down about it. Invincible moves out of shield are dumb.:mad:
 

ForwardAirRage!

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alright I won't. XD lol
hmmm i now need as many tips or any advice whatsoever about the D3 MU. haha got myself into a 50$ money match at a tourney and i'd like help before I play it. :)
 

Delta-cod

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>Accepts $50MM against DDD
>Doesn't know the MU

ಠ_ಠ

Um, DDD can be played in two distinct styles.

Style A - Camp his balls off cuz he's slow.
Style B - Rush the **** out of him and combo him to death cuz he's slow.

The main problem in the MU is killing him. He's fat as hell, so our vertical killers REALLY struggle to finish him off. Don't expect kills before like, 160%, lol.

Edgeguard him to death. He's sooooooooooooooooooooo slow while returning to the stage, so abuse it. Use Egg Toss to trap him, hit him with Nairs and Fairs. When he's at the ledge, stand out of getup attack range and use light egg tosses to frame trap his options, and punish with jabs or grabs (typically you'll be punishing an airdodge).

As far as camping goes, it's pretty standard. Egg Tosses/pivot grabs, dash grabs if you're feeling like it'll work, etc. Nothing special. Just, watch out for Gordos. >_<

Approaching him, Egg Lay and Bair are your friend. DDD shields a lot, so Egg Lay is an important tool to use against him. Pops him into the air for juggles. We combo him really well when we get in, so be ready to move quickly, because that's how we abuse him. Jab mixups, Bair cancels > tilts, Uair chains, you name it, it probably works on him.

DDD really only has his grab in this MU. If you start getting CG'd, I recommend attempting spotdodge to escape at low percents. Use Jab 1 when you reach high percents because you can cancel it into shield if he tries to dash attack you. If you reach desperation mode as far as killing him goes, you can try to Fsmash out of it (the pullback will get you out if he's not good with the timing), but I recommend saving it for the end of a set or really desperate times.

Uh, can't think of much else to say... MU isn't really tricky in any way. Just outplay your opponent and you'll win; it's pretty even.
 

ForwardAirRage!

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haha yes I did! because I'm smart >_<....
when I play D3's all i do is jab when I'm getting CG'd because if he messes up in the slightest the jab will hit him.. from what I can understand. I'm usually in the air for this MU basically for bair and egg lay is that smart or should i just start mixing up ground/air attacks? I've noticed that I'll be zipping around everywhere looking for an opening and the D3 will just wait there or move slowly behind sheild or even spot dodge and then just grab... sometimes I get frustrated but over all I like the MU. I just feel like I need help because I don't really wanna lose 50$ XD haha
 

Sinister Slush

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I dunno about Bair being decent against D3 is good either way since the penguin **** can still grab us even if it's retreating Bair or even ending up behind him.

Just camp and Egglay till he hits 170%, the only moves you'll get on him is if he's in the air jumping slowly or while he's in the egg and you're getting half the % on him with your moves.

Also, Texas has a Mid tier problem, I'm one of those players.

Lost to R.O.B. last year and this year at San Japan 4/5. Camped harder than me and won, wut do against the robot. (especially since missing out on money again to buy a bondage ring collar this year kinda upset me to the point of finally wanting to quit)
 

Delta-cod

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haha yes I did! because I'm smart >_<....
when I play D3's all i do is jab when I'm getting CG'd because if he messes up in the slightest the jab will hit him.. from what I can understand. I'm usually in the air for this MU basically for bair and egg lay is that smart or should i just start mixing up ground/air attacks? I've noticed that I'll be zipping around everywhere looking for an opening and the D3 will just wait there or move slowly behind sheild or even spot dodge and then just grab... sometimes I get frustrated but over all I like the MU. I just feel like I need help because I don't really wanna lose 50$ XD haha
Your best mixups will be dash grab instead of running away and like, Bair instead of Egg Lay. But really, playing the MU slowly until you hit him with a grab or Egg Lay is the way to go. Anything else can end in DDD grabbing you.

Lost to R.O.B. last year and this year at San Japan 4/5. Camped harder than me and won, wut do against the robot. (especially since missing out on money again to buy a bondage ring collar this year kinda upset me to the point of finally wanting to quit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqbPRj3u-rU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_3Ed-XuiY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8r3KlQ8Lrw
 

Sinister Slush

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Seen em. Didn't really help outside of "camp rather than approach" which I don't have the patience to do.

Edit: Which I guess, in context means I'll never win against R.O.B. I mean seriously, just watching the first two minutes of LIRR 2 video of MT and every time you approached you were slapped back, only option most of the time being breakfast thrown at him.
 

Delta-cod

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It's difficult to approach mainly due to the fact that gyro can occupy a really obnoxious range in front of ROB. However, Egg Lay works wonders, and if you did notice, when I DID get in, I chained him for like, 80%, so there is DEFINITELY room for aggression in the ROB MU.
 

~Firefly~

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Against D3, make a conscious effort to leave as little stage behind you as possible so if he does get a grab, he won't get much out of it. You can claim some stage control if you want, but retreating is much better than risking getting grabbed IMO. I find Dtilt to be really rewarding as well, especially if you can get him offstage; it sends him at an angle that forces him to burn his jumps, meaning he has to upB, meaning you get to hit him with anything you want for free. (just watch for the hitbox that appears underneath him from around the apex of his jump and the stars that come out as he lands)

:005:
 

Z'zgashi

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Seen em. Didn't really help outside of "camp rather than approach" which I don't have the patience to do.

Edit: Which I guess, in context means I'll never win against R.O.B. I mean seriously, just watching the first two minutes of LIRR 2 video of MT and every time you approached you were slapped back, only option most of the time being breakfast thrown at him.
I dont remember what thread it was in, but i did that 5 paragraph or so MU write up on ROB that goes all over how to approach and dealing with 'getting slapped away'. Its really just a game of footsies and staying mid range.
 

ForwardAirRage!

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Against D3, make a conscious effort to leave as little stage behind you as possible so if he does get a grab, he won't get much out of it. You can claim some stage control if you want, but retreating is much better than risking getting grabbed IMO. I find Dtilt to be really rewarding as well, especially if you can get him offstage; it sends him at an angle that forces him to burn his jumps, meaning he has to upB, meaning you get to hit him with anything you want for free. (just watch for the hitbox that appears underneath him from around the apex of his jump and the stars that come out as he lands)

:005:
I've been trying Dtlilt more near the edge and its been really helpful. sometimes ill even get a spike off of it if he uses like two of his jumps from fair. of course the D3 I play isn't as good as the D3 im about to MM... hopefully this training pays off haha
 

Lukingordex

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And about the Sonic MU?

This MU is so boring,take years,because both are afraid to approach. >.<
How can I play this MU without being bored?
:p
 

Z'zgashi

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Lol, dont get me started on Sonic, everyone and their mother plays sonic here and I absolutely hate that MU (3 PR'd sonics, one of which is X, fuuuuuu). Like, I have a personal weakness to quick characters (except Fox for some reason) part of which because Im not too confident in my reaction time, and while most of the time I dont mind campy match ups, sonic is just... Not fun for me at all.
 
D

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Lol.
Random, I think if people were good with link, we would lose that matchup. Link is soooo good

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Can we really cg link?

Even so, good luck grabbing link often
 

Z'zgashi

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Throw eggs at dem bombs :D

And Im not arguing that we **** him or anything, I actually think its pretty even although slightly in our favor thanks to how deadly the cg is if we get it.
 
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