Yoshi: A New Breed

[Chaco]

As well all know, and fight, Yoshi is underrated. No matter what we do, Yoshi seems to still be, under the surface. Recently, I have thought about Yoshi and his abilities. Something just didn't quite add up. Yoshi, in my opinion, the most technical of all characters is at the bottom. Why is this? Well, Yoshi mains choose not to look into these little tricks that have been passed off as. "Impractical", "To situational", or just "To hard". I must say that last one is my favorite. To hard. It's just two simple words that seem to block our path. Why is that? We choose to let them. Many of the Yoshis have poor technical abilities, such as Green Ace. But he overcompensates for his technical downfall with his core gameplay. But is this taking, play to your strengths to far? Yes, it is. I'm not going to sit here and say; Ace will never be as good as he can be without Draconic Reverse. Because that isn't true. Ace is one of the best Yoshis, by being one of the simplest. I'm not saying he isn't good, because he could kick my ***. Do you get what I'm implying though? You can't just pass off these tricks. They might not have an application every moment. But when they do, and they help you. you will be glad you have them.

Has your parent ever told you to wear extra clothing, and you refused to? And later on, it turned out that, it would have been good to have it? Of course. Your parents do know what they are talking about. Just as I do now. Yoshi will never go as far as he can go without tricks and techs. He just can't. You may be thinking, I already apply tons of these. Oh, but their are tons more. Honestly, I know Scat and I have both found things we chose not to tell. Why? We know they wouldn't be used. Well, that was my reasoning. You know the one person I tell though. Scat. He is the only person who will go out of his way to master it, just so he has the chance to apply it when the time comes. Why doesn't everyone do this? I don't understand. Isn't out of being stubborn? Or just not thinking? Or is it both? I can't answer this for you. You have to answer it for yourself. If I could, I would teach you how to DR consistently with out any effort on your part. But I can't. Honestly, does anyone besides Scat and I know what DR can truly do? Do you know how fast DT can make you move? Did you know Yoshi has a DJ Waveland from the edge? Did you know Yoshi has a Double Jump Toss Cancel? Did you know Yoshi has 30 frames to do anything after an egg lay fake? Do you really know Yoshi? None of us do, we've barely scathed the surface of what he is. And if continue to act in this manner we never will! No on knows how good he can be! None of us do! He has things we might never find out about him! But applying what we do know is just the start. The start of something new. A new Yoshi, a new breed. Edrees coming to Yoshi has given me hope, I'm not going to lie. He's new to Yoshi, and has to learn him from that point. He can build his Yoshi on foundations we could not. He has all this laid out for him, and for all new Yoshis. But the older Yoshis find it worthless? I'm not convinced. I never will be. It's only a matter of time before you see what a Yoshi doing all this can do. The top will change, and then all will follow. Or so I hope. If you believe I am talking about myself. Then you are dumb. I am not that good at Yoshi and probably never will be. But, do I pass of the techs as if they are as worthless as a piece of garbage? No, I learn them and try to master them. I might not be able to, but I'll try. But many of you are capable to. But you don't. I don't see why in just the minutes it takes, you pass it off. There was something I always liked about Mmac, he fought for Yoshi in inevitable odds. Many people thought he was stupid for doing so, I'll admit he made a fool of himself quite a bit. But he didn't give up. If you had that much heart in all of us, and combined with the ability of some of you...Yoshi will rise. He will, there are no questions to it. We fill discover new things, and advance him to what we only imagined was possible. It's time to make the change.

Will you be part of it?

No offense to Ace, I respect ya dude. But what you said made me think. And produced this.

 

[nicalobe]

Wow, sound like I'm being scolded by my mom...

As far as not learning new techniques goes, here's my two cents. Anyone who mains Yoshi, and I mean solely mains Yoshi, is always working on their technique, figuring the more advanced moves and when to use them. Those who use Yoshi as a primary character, but also fall back on other characters, tend to slack off on the more detailed aspects of Yoshi play, simply because if they can't use Yoshi to beat a character, they can always use their other, so no need to make yourself insane with trying to master a character who, sadly, got the short end of the stick when it came to Brawl mechanics.

As far as your statement on knowing techniques but not sharing them, it kind of makes you sound lke a douche, thinking no one but yourself has the drive to better themselves with advanced techniques. I wouldn't be nearly as good as I am right now if I never knew about ETS or Reverse-DJC-Egglay. If we want Yoshi to be seen as a respectable player, we need to share everything we have with everyone, even if it is 'too situational' or 'too hard'. Thanks to watching some of Scatz's vids, I've actually been making Yoshi respected up here in Ohio.

Now that I'm done ranting (that was fun ) I wanted to say that I have been working on some new technique that I've learned from messing up DJC-Egglay. I'm sure it's already been known, but for those who don't know it, it can potentially help and I know I'll be doing more expirementating with it. So I playing a Mario friendly. He wasn't the best, but I was happy to be playing. I started to do a DJC-Egglay to catch him off gaurd, but then I saw him start up a forward smash. I freaked out a little and hit the attack button after the double jump instead of the special button. My heavy armor absorbed the knockback and I was able to hit him with the neutral air.

Situational? Yes, very. But if we can master it and use it when it needs to be used, it's like having our own shuttle loop.

 

[Chaco]

I'll reply when Im not on my phone.

 

[nicalobe]

And I will read it tomorrow. G'night all.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I feel kind of guilty reading this because I was one of the Yoshis saying that it was impractical, too situational, or too hard. Only thing was that I kept trying to perfect it even with those feelings. I don't share those feelings anymore. I don't post much here anymore, mainly because I don't feel like I've earned the right to. Last time I really posted here often was when learning of Y B Cstick. I do like the YBC but I prefer Y L A since L as jump allows me to ETS often, which I think is more key than DR/T.




On a side note, I am extremely happy that Edreese has taken the task to learn Yoshi. I'm a fan of his Peach and I hope he does well with Yoshi.

 

[Elefterios]

First I'd like to say that Dr is no substitute for wavedashing. It doesn't even come close as a tech. There are so many aspects of it that hinder it from being the great tech that it could have been. It sounds great on paper. A move that is so similar to a wavedash, yet somehow it falls a little short.

First we have to find out why wavedash worked so well in melee.

- improve movement
- fast (DR is slow)
- you can do anything after
- easy input

There are 2 factors that makes DR a sub par tech. The difficult input, and yoshi's shield. What made wavedash great was that you could adapt to your opponent's movement. For example, if your opponent was doing a laggy move, you could wavedash towards him to smash. If he was doing a fast move you could wavedash to jab. And if you had wavedash into your opponent charging a smash, you could simply shield.

You can't get that much reaction time after a DR. When you DR, you have to know exactly what you will do next. This is partly do to the awkward input of the tech. When you DR, your thumb ends up on the c-stick. Meaning, no matter what the situation you are in after a DR, you will not have enough time to think or input a different move than the one you had in mind. You are basically stuck to your initial plan. If you had planned to DR and forward smash, that's what you were going to do. In a sense, Dr to a specific move deserves to be a tech on its own. And this is the problem.

There were many instances where i was DRing to Fsmash where I told myself that it was a bad idea while inputing the command. Like I said, you are stuck to it, if your opponent has just enough time to take his shield out, you will be the one getting punished. And that's not only if your opponent shields, that also goes to Dring into your opponent's attacks. And this brings me to my next point.

Now onto yoshi's shield. Definitely the worst thing in Yoshi's game. if people are asking why Yoshi is low tier, you'd see me pointing at his shield.

Why would you want to shield? And better yet. why would you ever want to DR to shield? When you are DRing you are cut from any defensive option. If you try to shield after a DR you will most likely still get hit due to its laggy properties. If you do shield, it puts you in a bad position. Yoshi's standing grabs are slow, his rolls are slow, his get out of shield animation is slow and he can't even jump out of shield. If you are playing against a smart player with yoshi experience, they will almost always hit you after your shield. If by tech chasing your roll, or just by waiting till you spot dodge, you should never feel safe when shielding.

No Defensive option = bad.

I think DR is overrated. DR for me is kind of a coin toss, sometimes you will land a hit using it, sometimes your opponent will land one. That's certainly the impression I got from using it, and from watching videos online.

DR will not bring a new breed of yoshis. DR is a gimmick, you can do cool things with it, but it is not reliable enough. It's like asking melee samus players to use super wavedashes more. It can be useful, but it's more situational than anything else.

 

[Chaco]

I wasn;t pointing to DR specifically, I meant all the techs that are not being used. DR is just the main one.

 

[Elefterios]

I wasn;t pointing to DR specifically, I meant all the techs that are not being used. DR is just the main one.

Not all techs should be used. Some techs are useless. Dr. mario in melee had an up b cancel. It was hard to pull off, and really had no purpose other than to be flashy.

I'm kinda falling back on DR again. The harder the tech does not mean that it's a useful one. Instead of practicing something that is highly situational, and high risk. Try just improving your core gameplay. In the end, that's what will make your yoshi win.

EDIT: other than DR, triple jump. eggroll edgehog. I think we all use yoshi's other "techs".

 

[Chaco]

Well, not quite. I'm not going into the lesser known ones.

But yeah, DR is good. But, I see what you mean.

Ace has strong core gameplay, which is very successful for him.

 

[Silent Beast]

I don't post much here anymore, mainly because I don't feel like I've earned the right to.

You have the right to post.

Last time I really posted here often was when learning of Y B Cstick. I do like the YBC but I prefer Y L A since L as jump allows me to ETS often, which I think is more key than DR/T.

You can still set L to jump using Y-B-C stick.

 

[auroreon]

This had to be said and I'm so glad someone did, Chaco my respect for you just rose greatly.
As one of the only Yoshis who really does use DR in matches I have to say I disagree with you Elefterios, and to any other Yoshi who would argue that DR is impractical and not very useful. Not only DR but any other tech or anything that happens to arise from DR.
Its clear that you believe DR too difficult to instinctively incorperate into your game like a wavedash, now I am not going to argure that the DR will ever be a substitute for a wavedash... but I am here to tell you that you CAN learn it to a point where it becomes instictive and reliable.
As many of you may know, I am a Yoshi who never turned tap jump off, and up untill now that desicion has hindered me. With the discovery of DR I can state that this is no longer the case. I use Tap > X > A to DR and I have almost a 100% success rate with DR. Now I realise how much harder it must be for people with tap off to get DR down, but as a Yoshi who can use it and does use it I can tell you that it does bring benefits. Despite my current limited use of it (mostly thanks to my Wii braking shortly after my initial implementation of it into my game) I have been able to see just how under appreciated it is. I won't pretend I have mastered it, or even scratched the surface of its usefulness but I will say that it has helped me.
Yes, it did take me a long time to learn it. When it was first discovered and I first attempted it I couldn't even do it once in a hundred times on 1/4 speed in training mode. I questioned its existance let alone application and just passed it off as useless. But slowly as I kept attempting it over the course of a couple of months or so, gradually I was able to do it more and more. Initially I was amazed when I could get 2 in a row, later I was at 5 or 6 and eventually I could DR from one end of FD to the other.
It is a HARD tech, made harder by the fact that nearly all Yoshis turn tap jump off and I don't blame anyone for passing it off as impractical, but please take my word on it when I say it IS possible and with enough practise you WILL eventually get it no matter how long it takes.
We play a (admittedly wrongly accused) low tier character. And as such we are going to have to put in a lot more effort into our character to compete than higher tier mainers, if that is a problem for you then I'm sorry but you need to switch your main.
There is so much untapped potential for discovery and development of Yoshi, but all we seem to do right now is continue with what we already have. Those of you who remember when Mmac was around will recall the amazing advancements we had with Yoshi, all these new and exiting techs were just being released and reseach being done. Now we seem to be at a standstill. Scatz seems to be the only one testing new stuff out. Im not excusing myself, I have been playing Yoshi since the release of Brawl but my contrbution to the community has been minimal at best, I will be able to play again soon and when that happens I shall take it as my duty to be a credit to the Yoshi community and do the best I can to help advance Yoshis game.
It wasn't too long ago when new discoveries were made every other weak and find it extremely unliekly that we have exhausted the possibilities with Yoshi, I really hope this will be, as Chaco suggested, the start of something new for Yoshi and I will contribute towards that as much as I can.
Maybe the DR doesn't turn out to be a great tech and maybe it is impractical to use and brings minimal benefits, but without testing it out extensively how will we ever know?
Ace is an amazing Yoshi, one of the best out there, and he is proving just what Yoshi is capable of and his style is very basic core play... so just imagine what can be achieved with more weapons in his arsenal.

I intend to contribute everything I can to Yoshi and put him where he belongs on that tier list.
To the New Breed.

 

[Chaco]

Wow, sound like I'm being scolded by my mom...

As far as not learning new techniques goes, here's my two cents. Anyone who mains Yoshi, and I mean solely mains Yoshi, is always working on their technique, figuring the more advanced moves and when to use them. Those who use Yoshi as a primary character, but also fall back on other characters, tend to slack off on the more detailed aspects of Yoshi play, simply because if they can't use Yoshi to beat a character, they can always use their other, so no need to make yourself insane with trying to master a character who, sadly, got the short end of the stick when it came to Brawl mechanics.

As far as your statement on knowing techniques but not sharing them, it kind of makes you sound lke a douche, thinking no one but yourself has the drive to better themselves with advanced techniques. I wouldn't be nearly as good as I am right now if I never knew about ETS or Reverse-DJC-Egglay. If we want Yoshi to be seen as a respectable player, we need to share everything we have with everyone, even if it is 'too situational' or 'too hard'. Thanks to watching some of Scatz's vids, I've actually been making Yoshi respected up here in Ohio.

Now that I'm done ranting (that was fun ) I wanted to say that I have been working on some new technique that I've learned from messing up DJC-Egglay. I'm sure it's already been known, but for those who don't know it, it can potentially help and I know I'll be doing more expirementating with it. So I playing a Mario friendly. He wasn't the best, but I was happy to be playing. I started to do a DJC-Egglay to catch him off gaurd, but then I saw him start up a forward smash. I freaked out a little and hit the attack button after the double jump instead of the special button. My heavy armor absorbed the knockback and I was able to hit him with the neutral air.

Situational? Yes, very. But if we can master it and use it when it needs to be used, it's like having our own shuttle loop.

Lol, well if you want to know some of the things ask Scatty and I. We just don't feel as a whole these things will be used so it's not worth our time and effort to get instructions for everyone and show them how it is done.

But just to enlighten I'll tell you about one of the newest little things that was found. DJTC. Double Jump Toss Cancelling, is where Yoshi does a double jump and cancels it with an item toss downward but the item does not release from Yoshi's grasp. It remains in his and as he slides. It works as a mindgame, and pretty well at that. Mixing up things against Diddy is needed, and this helps. It allows for a cheap Fsmash if you would say so. But still, it's not really easy to perform. The cancel happens when Yoshi's fist his the grounds at the time of release. Thus causing him to keep the nana.

And as for some of the stuff Scat finds, he doesn't even tell me. The reason I tell him is that I know he can help me figure it out.

I feel kind of guilty reading this because I was one of the Yoshis saying that it was impractical, too situational, or too hard. Only thing was that I kept trying to perfect it even with those feelings. I don't share those feelings anymore. I don't post much here anymore, mainly because I don't feel like I've earned the right to. Last time I really posted here often was when learning of Y B Cstick. I do like the YBC but I prefer Y L A since L as jump allows me to ETS often, which I think is more key than DR/T.




On a side note, I am extremely happy that Edreese has taken the task to learn Yoshi. I'm a fan of his Peach and I hope he does well with Yoshi.

You definitely have a right to post. Everyone does.

This had to be said and I'm so glad someone did, Chaco my respect for you just rose greatly.
As one of the only Yoshis who really does use DR in matches I have to say I disagree with you Elefterios, and to any other Yoshi who would argue that DR is impractical and not very useful. Not only DR but any other tech or anything that happens to arise from DR.
Its clear that you believe DR too difficult to instinctively incorperate into your game like a wavedash, now I am not going to argure that the DR will ever be a substitute for a wavedash... but I am here to tell you that you CAN learn it to a point where it becomes instictive and reliable.
As many of you may know, I am a Yoshi who never turned tap jump off, and up untill now that desicion has hindered me. With the discovery of DR I can state that this is no longer the case. I use Tap > X > A to DR and I have almost a 100% success rate with DR. Now I realise how much harder it must be for people with tap off to get DR down, but as a Yoshi who can use it and does use it I can tell you that it does bring benefits. Despite my current limited use of it (mostly thanks to my Wii braking shortly after my initial implementation of it into my game) I have been able to see just how under appreciated it is. I won't pretend I have mastered it, or even scratched the surface of its usefulness but I will say that it has helped me.
Yes, it did take me a long time to learn it. When it was first discovered and I first attempted it I couldn't even do it once in a hundred times on 1/4 speed in training mode. I questioned its existance let alone application and just passed it off as useless. But slowly as I kept attempting it over the course of a couple of months or so, gradually I was able to do it more and more. Initially I was amazed when I could get 2 in a row, later I was at 5 or 6 and eventually I could DR from one end of FD to the other.
It is a HARD tech, made harder by the fact that nearly all Yoshis turn tap jump off and I don't blame anyone for passing it off as impractical, but please take my word on it when I say it IS possible and with enough practise you WILL eventually get it no matter how long it takes.
We play a (admittedly wrongly accused) low tier character. And as such we are going to have to put in a lot more effort into our character to compete than higher tier mainers, if that is a problem for you then I'm sorry but you need to switch your main.
There is so much untapped potential for discovery and development of Yoshi, but all we seem to do right now is continue with what we already have. Those of you who remember when Mmac was around will recall the amazing advancements we had with Yoshi, all these new and exiting techs were just being released and reseach being done. Now we seem to be at a standstill. Scatz seems to be the only one testing new stuff out. Im not excusing myself, I have been playing Yoshi since the release of Brawl but my contrbution to the community has been minimal at best, I will be able to play again soon and when that happens I shall take it as my duty to be a credit to the Yoshi community and do the best I can to help advance Yoshis game.
It wasn't too long ago when new discoveries were made every other weak and find it extremely unliekly that we have exhausted the possibilities with Yoshi, I really hope this will be, as Chaco suggested, the start of something new for Yoshi and I will contribute towards that as much as I can.
Maybe the DR doesn't turn out to be a great tech and maybe it is impractical to use and brings minimal benefits, but without testing it out extensively how will we ever know?
Ace is an amazing Yoshi, one of the best out there, and he is proving just what Yoshi is capable of and his style is very basic core play... so just imagine what can be achieved with more weapons in his arsenal.

I intend to contribute everything I can to Yoshi and put him where he belongs on that tier list.
To the New Breed.

Well said Auro.

But the way the Yoshies think is definitely split, and some will never see the usefulness behind it. I hope I can convince some of you to at least try it. If I even get one person to realize it, I've done my job.

 

[Poltergust]

Hm, I don't know... Other than DR, Triple Jump, and Egg-Lay Cancel, I don't think I'm missing out on other techs...

Techs I do:
-ETS
-ETS Edgehog
-Dragonic Egg-Lay
-Yoshi Bomb Edgehog
-Yoshi Bomb Slide Cancel
-Reverse Egg Roll
-Quick Pivot-Grab
-Probably a couple of others that I'm forgetting

Now, other than DR, I personally don't think that any other ATs are useful. Yes, I admit that I don't use some ATs since they are "impractical," but you can't blame me for it, right? It's true that some of his ATs are just not useful at all, such as his Triple Jump, or that some of them are almost impossible to pull off against a good opponent, such as Egg-Lay Cancel Footstool. I know, this may sound ignorant, but if there was a reliable way to pull these ATs off then I'd definitely use them. The problem is that, currently, there isn't. That's why I don't use them, but I still do well without them.

Personally, I think what we should do is follow what Green Ace is doing and work on his core gameplay more. Personally, my defense game is terrible since I always spot-dodge at the wrong times. So, I need to work on building his defense game, then I can focus on nailing down those "impractical" ATs.

Also:

Has your parent ever told you to wear extra clothing, and you refused to? And later on, it turned out that, it would have been good to have it? Of course. Your parents do know what they are talking about.

Not really. My mom tells me to wear a sweater in 90-degree weather.

 

[Chaco]

Well, that's why we are working on finding ways to make them easier. ^-^

 

[Deleted member]

People should work on getting good before they start trying to learn DR and sheet. If theres any flaws in core gameplay, that should be worked on first. Then again, if you think DR will help fix that, go for it.

 

[Airborne]

man, **** happened when i was in florida.... -.- i love not getting to witness anything, let alone work my *** off on finding easier ways to perform these techs.... the weird ones, i mean.

these techs aren't as difficult to successfully perform at will as Lucas' Zap Jump (Well Egg lay fake is, but that's a different reason), in which case you need to do pk fire EXACTLY 1 frame after the second jump, and i can almost do that with ease in some circumstances...

i find DR potentially amazing for things such as yoshi's speed increase, and the ability to do every move out of a dash, while also increasing the range on his moves. the waveland from ledge hopping is also extremely remarkable, due to it's ability to cancel the ledgehop and put you on the stage next to the ledge with zero ending lag, allowing intense punishment if the opponent goes for the air.

i like this thread, chaco, it seems rather motivating, but like scatz said, most yoshis need to work on their basic coreplay first and utmost. the technique is the icing on the cake. mmmm cake...
but yeah, i don't many positive results coming out of this thread because we didn't even get much from stocky's "Step It Up!" thread. (though i am showing positive results imo =D) no offense. i am ALL for your cause though. =\

 

[auroreon]

I know, this may sound ignorant, but if there was a reliable way to pull these ATs off then I'd definitely use them. The problem is that, currently, there isn't.

Thats why we try to find practical ways to do these things in training mode, many ATs have been discovered as a result of trying to do something else in training mode.

Personally, my defense game is terrible since I always spot-dodge at the wrong times. So, I need to work on building his defense game, then I can focus on nailing down those "impractical" ATs.

I will be working on a guide to Yoshi's defensive game when I get my Wii back and go to a fest next week, so look out for that in the coming weeks and any contributions you can make would be appriciated no matter how small or obvious.

 

[bigman40]

Oh yes, time for my big *** post!

I don't post much here anymore, mainly because I don't feel like I've earned the right to.

That should not be a valid reason as to why you can't post here.

First I'd like to say that Dr is no substitute for wavedashing. It doesn't even come close as a tech. There are so many aspects of it that hinder it from being the great tech that it could have been. It sounds great on paper. A move that is so similar to a wavedash, yet somehow it falls a little short.


There are 2 factors that makes DR a sub par tech. The difficult input, and yoshi's shield.

You can't get that much reaction time after a DR. When you DR, you have to know exactly what you will do next.

Now onto yoshi's shield. Definitely the worst thing in Yoshi's game. if people are asking why Yoshi is low tier, you'd see me pointing at his shield.

Why would you want to shield? And better yet. why would you ever want to DR to shield? When you are DRing you are cut from any defensive option. If you try to shield after a DR you will most likely still get hit due to its laggy properties. If you do shield, it puts you in a bad position. Yoshi's standing grabs are slow, his rolls are slow, his get out of shield animation is slow and he can't even jump out of shield. If you are playing against a smart player with yoshi experience, they will almost always hit you after your shield. If by tech chasing your roll, or just by waiting till you spot dodge, you should never feel safe when shielding.

No Defensive option = bad.

I'm pretty sure that We've said that DR IS NOT a substitute for wavedashing.

If you have trouble pulling off this tech, then I lol. Waveshining is harder to do than this (unless you're doing it via YYA, XXA).

Reaction was cut short for basically everything in this game, hence why it's a game where camping can win. This doesn't make much of any difference for DR.

Why would I want to shield......OH EM GEE....IIRC, you posted that I should shield more in the critique thread. Yoshi's shield has uses, but you are still stuck on the same thing as everyone else that can't play him right (aka "It's completely useless"). Yeah, I know his options suck when he's in it. I know that his main (practically ONLY) viable option is to spotdodge, yet as many videos I've watched, mostly any Yoshi playing a person that's smart and knows how to punish, gets hit cause of relying on spotdodging to avoid using the shield.

When you combine the shield + the spotdodge, you actually have a use for going into the shield now. Multi-hitting moves are easier to punish now since you can spotdodge the rest of the attack so you can punish normally (hmm.....I think Bwett said something about this quite a while ago).

Now, I'm pretty sure that you're gonna ask this question now, "If they're behind you and don't do anything, then what do you do? Or what if you get hit by a single-hitting move?" For the former question, simple. JUST LET GO OF THE SHIELD. You risk everything else cause it's easily telegraphed. BUT WAIT!

"I'm still going to get hit cause of the lag of letting go of the shield"

We can cancel the lag to a spotdodge to avoid an attack. Yeah, this is a 50:50 chance, yet I would rather take this than any other option that's more punishable.

For the latter question, a single-hitting move won't change things much. If it pushes you back far enough, you can get let go of the shield and go back to fighting normally. If it doesn't give you a big push back, we can normally expect 2 things to happen:

1. Attack
2. Grab

If they attack, then it's practically the same as a multi-hitting move, so you can spotdodge it, and punish. If it's a grab, then you don't really have much choice but to anticipate it. While you get grabbed, it isn't that much of a big deal unless you're going against the characters that actually can follow up with something else or can kill outright such as Kirby, Falco, D3, Ness, and Lucario. Difference about this is that Falco, Kirby, Ness, and Lucario can't do much of anything until you get into their percentage where it's dangerous (low %s for Kirby and Falco, and High %s for Ness and Lucario). So we only really worry about D3 screwing this over since he CGs us at any percent.

Not all techs should be used. Some techs are useless. Dr. mario in melee had an up b cancel. It was hard to pull off, and really had no purpose other than to be flashy.

I'm kinda falling back on DR again. The harder the tech does not mean that it's a useful one. Instead of practicing something that is highly situational, and high risk. Try just improving your core gameplay. In the end, that's what will make your yoshi win.

EDIT: other than DR, triple jump. eggroll edgehog. I think we all use yoshi's other "techs".

Yeah, we passed of techs as useless, but those reasons why we passed it off are actually a viable reason. Also, are you talking about MARIO's (not Dr. Mario cause IIRC, he doesn't have a wall jump in melee, therefore, he couldn't do it) UpB cancel? Cause if you are, then wtf.....Mario's upB cancel wasn't that flashy, it actually proved use to his recovery. Yeah, it was hard (along with most technical **** in melee), but it wasn't useless.

.
Yes, it did take me a long time to learn it. When it was first discovered and I first attempted it I couldn't even do it once in a hundred times on 1/4 speed in training mode. I questioned its existance let alone application and just passed it off as useless.
To the New Breed.

I've seen this line soo many times, All I can do is lol.

Lol, well if you want to know some of the things ask Scatty and I.

Nope. Don't ask me cause I stopped caring. Most of the stuff I find now are for my personal gain, but if I find something that's "Gamebreaking" then I'll post it.

And as for some of the stuff Scat finds, he doesn't even tell me.

There's a reason to that too. But I'm not gonna write it out here. Also, get me on AIM or something.

Techs I do:
-ETS
-ETS Edgehog
-Dragonic Egg-Lay
-Yoshi Bomb Edgehog
-Yoshi Bomb Slide Cancel
-Reverse Egg Roll
-Quick Pivot-Grab
-Probably a couple of others that I'm forgetting

You realize that the ones bolded are not ATs right?

Yes, I admit that I don't use some ATs since they are "impractical," but you can't blame me for it, right? It's true that some of his ATs are just not useful at all, such as his Triple Jump, or that some of them are almost impossible to pull off against a good opponent, such as Egg-Lay Cancel Footstool. I know, this may sound ignorant, but if there was a reliable way to pull these ATs off then I'd definitely use them. The problem is that, currently, there isn't. That's why I don't use them, but I still do well without them.

So apparently I do the impossible when I try to Egg lay, I (most of the time) end up getting it canceled cause of my **** spacing. It's not impossible, it's impractical, and when we do get it, we're not paying attention as we should be. And the Egg Lay Footstool, shouldn't be what you want to try anyway. It's easy to dodge the setup. Getting the cancel itself (on ground) gives you about 30 frames to react, which is a free Fsmash.

Personally, I think what we should do is follow what Green Ace is doing and work on his core gameplay more. Personally, my defense game is terrible since I always spot-dodge at the wrong times. So, I need to work on building his defense game, then I can focus on nailing down those "impractical" ATs.

Lol. Green Ace AND Bwett's core gameplay. Some people might want to include mine into that list, but I say no cause it's not that amazing. It's just good core gameplay, while those two have GREAT core gameplay.

As for getting better with your defense, Stop the spotdodging. I'm being serious about this too. Yoshi's shield does work out for us, but because we passed it off as useless, we always have to "anticipate" our opponents so that we can get out of the shield and then do something effectively. So yeah, you might get stuck in the shield.....So what do you do? I bet that you never would've thought about just letting go of the shield button right?

"But......I'm completely open to get hit"

No you're not. Remember that as Yoshi is coming out of the shield (almost all 16 frames of it), he can interrupt it with a spotdodge to make yourself invunerable again? We have this kind of stuff, but what do ya know? It's passed of as, "Don't use it. It's completely horrible. You'll only get punished for being in the shield".

People should work on getting good before they start trying to learn DR and sheet. If theres any flaws in core gameplay, that should be worked on first. Then again, if you think DR will help fix that, go for it.

I love how my post about people needing to work on the core gameplay of Yoshi was missed here.

i like this thread, chaco, it seems rather motivating, but like scatz said, most yoshis need to work on their basic coreplay first and utmost. the technique is the icing on the cake.

Apparently, someone noticed my thread.

I will be working on a guide to Yoshi's defensive game when I get my Wii back and go to a fest next week, so look out for that in the coming weeks and any contributions you can make would be appriciated no matter how small or obvious.

You can just use that part I posted for Poltergust and Elef.

/bigasspost

 

[Green_Ace]

Raichu **** a brick.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I'm sorry, guys. I'm just frustrated with not being able to go to tournies, I just got bailed on by my friend two weeks in a row.

 

[bigman40]

I'm sorry, guys. I'm just frustrated with not being able to go to tournies, I just got bailed on by my friend two weeks in a row.

That sucks. Yet take my restrictions:

1. No car at college
2. No smash scene at college
3. Smash scene is at least 3+ hours away from me
4. Stuck here for 4 months
5. Only have about 3-5 people that I can consistently play with and get better
6. No wifi to even learn about any other matchup.

Not only that, but College is kicking my *** right now cause I have finals coming up, and I had a ****load of work to keep me busy for a complete week. If you're friend isn't doing it for you (when it comes to rides), then try to find someone else.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

10

Do well on your Finals.

 

[nicalobe]

Holy ****, you know those terrible teen tv shows where there is that one episode where everyone just starts yelling at each other, not necessarily out of hate, and everyone is on the edge and ready to blow? And everyone comes out of it learning something about each other, which ultimatly strengthens their friendship?

This thread is that episode.

 

[Chaco]

Oh yes, time for my big *** post!



That should not be a valid reason as to why you can't post here.



I'm pretty sure that We've said that DR IS NOT a substitute for wavedashing.

If you have trouble pulling off this tech, then I lol. Waveshining is harder to do than this (unless you're doing it via YYA, XXA).

Reaction was cut short for basically everything in this game, hence why it's a game where camping can win. This doesn't make much of any difference for DR.

Why would I want to shield......OH EM GEE....IIRC, you posted that I should shield more in the critique thread. Yoshi's shield has uses, but you are still stuck on the same thing as everyone else that can't play him right (aka "It's completely useless"). Yeah, I know his options suck when he's in it. I know that his main (practically ONLY) viable option is to spotdodge, yet as many videos I've watched, mostly any Yoshi playing a person that's smart and knows how to punish, gets hit cause of relying on spotdodging to avoid using the shield.

When you combine the shield + the spotdodge, you actually have a use for going into the shield now. Multi-hitting moves are easier to punish now since you can spotdodge the rest of the attack so you can punish normally (hmm.....I think Bwett said something about this quite a while ago).

Now, I'm pretty sure that you're gonna ask this question now, "If they're behind you and don't do anything, then what do you do? Or what if you get hit by a single-hitting move?" For the former question, simple. JUST LET GO OF THE SHIELD. You risk everything else cause it's easily telegraphed. BUT WAIT!

"I'm still going to get hit cause of the lag of letting go of the shield"

We can cancel the lag to a spotdodge to avoid an attack. Yeah, this is a 50:50 chance, yet I would rather take this than any other option that's more punishable.

For the latter question, a single-hitting move won't change things much. If it pushes you back far enough, you can get let go of the shield and go back to fighting normally. If it doesn't give you a big push back, we can normally expect 2 things to happen:

1. Attack
2. Grab

If they attack, then it's practically the same as a multi-hitting move, so you can spotdodge it, and punish. If it's a grab, then you don't really have much choice but to anticipate it. While you get grabbed, it isn't that much of a big deal unless you're going against the characters that actually can follow up with something else or can kill outright such as Kirby, Falco, D3, Ness, and Lucario. Difference about this is that Falco, Kirby, Ness, and Lucario can't do much of anything until you get into their percentage where it's dangerous (low %s for Kirby and Falco, and High %s for Ness and Lucario). So we only really worry about D3 screwing this over since he CGs us at any percent.



Yeah, we passed of techs as useless, but those reasons why we passed it off are actually a viable reason. Also, are you talking about MARIO's (not Dr. Mario cause IIRC, he doesn't have a wall jump in melee, therefore, he couldn't do it) UpB cancel? Cause if you are, then wtf.....Mario's upB cancel wasn't that flashy, it actually proved use to his recovery. Yeah, it was hard (along with most technical **** in melee), but it wasn't useless.



I've seen this line soo many times, All I can do is lol.



Nope. Don't ask me cause I stopped caring. Most of the stuff I find now are for my personal gain, but if I find something that's "Gamebreaking" then I'll post it.



There's a reason to that too. But I'm not gonna write it out here. Also, get me on AIM or something.



You realize that the ones bolded are not ATs right?



So apparently I do the impossible when I try to Egg lay, I (most of the time) end up getting it canceled cause of my **** spacing. It's not impossible, it's impractical, and when we do get it, we're not paying attention as we should be. And the Egg Lay Footstool, shouldn't be what you want to try anyway. It's easy to dodge the setup. Getting the cancel itself (on ground) gives you about 30 frames to react, which is a free Fsmash.



Lol. Green Ace AND Bwett's core gameplay. Some people might want to include mine into that list, but I say no cause it's not that amazing. It's just good core gameplay, while those two have GREAT core gameplay.

As for getting better with your defense, Stop the spotdodging. I'm being serious about this too. Yoshi's shield does work out for us, but because we passed it off as useless, we always have to "anticipate" our opponents so that we can get out of the shield and then do something effectively. So yeah, you might get stuck in the shield.....So what do you do? I bet that you never would've thought about just letting go of the shield button right?

"But......I'm completely open to get hit"

No you're not. Remember that as Yoshi is coming out of the shield (almost all 16 frames of it), he can interrupt it with a spotdodge to make yourself invunerable again? We have this kind of stuff, but what do ya know? It's passed of as, "Don't use it. It's completely horrible. You'll only get punished for being in the shield".



I love how my post about people needing to work on the core gameplay of Yoshi was missed here.



Apparently, someone noticed my thread.



You can just use that part I posted for Poltergust and Elef.

/bigasspost

And this is why Scat won the thread.

 

[Green_Ace]

And this is why Scat **** a barrage of bricks.

Fixed.

/Insidejokelol

 

[Chaco]

Fixed.

/Insidejokelol

Seaking used **** YEAH.

M2K fainted.

 

[Poltergust]

Holy ****, you know those terrible teen tv shows where there is that one episode where everyone just starts yelling at each other, not necessarily out of hate, and everyone is on the edge and ready to blow? And everyone comes out of it learning something about each other, which ultimatly strengthens their friendship?

This thread is that episode.

Avatar? =O

 

[thekingsdinner666]

Holy ****, you know those terrible teen tv shows where there is that one episode where everyone just starts yelling at each other, not necessarily out of hate, and everyone is on the edge and ready to blow? And everyone comes out of it learning something about each other, which ultimatly strengthens their friendship?

This thread is that episode.

This thread is a terrible TV show?

 

[Bwett]

Scat and Chaco, yall should never, and I repeat, NEVER keep an AT hidden because you believe it will be passed off as too situational. Everything that is found in Brawl must be documented, no matter how poorly you think it will be received. Just because someone says that it is too situational doesn't mean that they completely disregard the move.

Also, don't be afraid to hide in your shield. If I don't know what to do when I'm being pressured, sometimes I'll just shield and wait just to see what they do. The only thing that will get you out of it is shieldbreak and grab.

 

[Chaco]

Okay, Bwett.

 

[thekingsdinner666]

Scat and Chaco, yall should never, and I repeat, NEVER keep an AT hidden because you believe it will be passed off as too situational. Everything that is found in Brawl must be documented, no matter how poorly you think it will be received. Just because someone says that it is too situational doesn't mean that they completely disregard the move.

Also, don't be afraid to hide in your shield. If I don't know what to do when I'm being pressured, sometimes I'll just shield and wait just to see what they do. The only thing that will get you out of it is shieldbreak and grab.

Well maybe some people just don't want to document it because they want to keep it to themselves. Like, I know a major Toon Link uber-arrow glitch that I only show my true friends. And I didn't document it because I don't want other people to take credit for my work. Don't try manipulating ppl like that.

 

[Bwett]

I certainly hope that the main body of the smash community does not have the same selfish idiocy that seems to drip from your words.

Smash can only thrive from a constant stream of interaction of ideas and discovery. Without this documentation, how the hell is the metagame going to evolve? It won't. It will stagnate.

 

[Chaco]

And the point of this thread was to evolve his metagame.

So, TKD, I'd just quit now.

 

[auroreon]

Well maybe some people just don't want to document it because they want to keep it to themselves. Like, I know a major Toon Link uber-arrow glitch that I only show my true friends. And I didn't document it because I don't want other people to take credit for my work. Don't try manipulating ppl like that.

Keeping techs to yourself is silly. We are a community working together with the same goal and as such we share the knowledge we have in the hopes of helping other with the same goal.
If simply kept stuff to ourselves then what would be the point of having character discussion boards at all.
We need to see more co-operation and callabiration on the Yoshi boards than we have been seeing recently, people come here to discuss and learn how to advance Yoshi as a whole and no single person is going to do that by themselves.
We should all be contributing as much as we can towards not just improving our own Yoshis but all Yoshis, because when we help others by teaching them what we have learnt they in turn may end up helping us later on with discoveries they have made themselves thanks to the guidance they were given.

EDIT: LOL @ bwett and chaco, man you guys are harsh... even if the guy is talking ****.

 

[thekingsdinner666]

I certainly hope that the main body of the smash community does not have the same selfish idiocy that seems to drip from your words.

Smash can only thrive from a constant stream of interaction of ideas and discovery. Without this documentation, how the hell is the metagame going to evolve? It won't. It will stagnate.

Why are you acting as if the ideas and combos will have an apex? They won't. It only will with more people trolling and fighting with another's opinion as you are. It would be different if I said, "Stop looking for techniques and thinking up ideas and just Brawl dammit."
I'm only trying to let them deside whether or not they take your word for it. And selfishness? At least I'm not going around forcing people to spit up any crap they've found in the game.

EDIT: Of COURSE I want to help the community and tell all techniques, I just don't want people to have to do it. They can if they want. And don't say I don't encourage it.

 

[Airborne]

Why are you acting as if the ideas and combos will have an apex? They won't. It only will with more people trolling and fighting with another's opinion as you are. It would be different if I said, "Stop looking for techniques and thinking up ideas and just Brawl dammit."
I'm only trying to let them deside whether or not they take your word for it. And selfishness? At least I'm not going around forcing people to spit up any crap they've found in the game.

EDIT: Of COURSE I want to help the community and tell all techniques, I just don't want people to have to do it. They can if they want. And don't say I don't encourage it.

....... you're the only person with that opinion....

 

[Bwett]

First of all, I can't force anyone to do anything. Secondly, hiding an amazing technique for TL because you want the glory for yourself, but "OF COURSE" wanting to "help the community and tell all techniques" are contradictory statements.

 

[bigman40]

Scat and Chaco, yall should never, and I repeat, NEVER keep an AT hidden because you believe it will be passed off as too situational. Everything that is found in Brawl must be documented, no matter how poorly you think it will be received. Just because someone says that it is too situational doesn't mean that they completely disregard the move.

Also, don't be afraid to hide in your shield. If I don't know what to do when I'm being pressured, sometimes I'll just shield and wait just to see what they do. The only thing that will get you out of it is shieldbreak and grab.

As far as I've been working, I haven't found any techs. Things that I may have told people were to get them tested and get their input so that I could understand what negative effects (and positive) come when using this tech or trap. I have no reason to hide anything in the first place, and selfishness is not even something useful.

 

[thekingsdinner666]

First of all, I can't force anyone to do anything. Secondly, hiding an amazing technique for TL because you want the glory for yourself, but "OF COURSE" wanting to "help the community and tell all techniques" are contradictory statements.

Look bro, can we plz get over this fight? And I didn't say anything about glory. NEway, I posted TL glitch on General Brawl.

 

[King Yo Lu De]

I guess Yoshi's combos are his secret weapon. But you have to attack at the right time.
Maybe being trickey can also help... who knows?