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Would anyone else prefer it if there were no more characters now?

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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So 42 characters is the number that gets the turd rolling? Or you know the team will suddenly stop caring about the quality of the game at 42?
There isn't a definite number that is a boundary line. It's more is the character roster growing n relation to the amount of people playing it. As it is currently, matchup experience plays a much large role in tournament play than a well-developed game should have. As P:M gets older and more mature, the experience of the playerbase as well as the sheer number of them will grow and catch up with the roster. As it is currently, there are only a few notables who main each character. There is no such thing as the best ____ in whatever region because there aren't enough people even playing every character for there to be a notable competition. Everyone is simply known as the ___ player from ____. For example, aero. How many other tink players can one think up off the top of their head? Same thing with Rob, GnW, and Pikachu. They simply don't have the large playerbase that other equally viable characters such as marth or shiek have, because the roster is spread to thin. At the moment that is, this will even out with time.
 

Generically Epic

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Silpheed

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Did you even read the 2nd line of my 2 line post?

I did. How does that change anything, exactly? How did you determine (other than some personal preference in roster sizes in fighting games) that it's "too many" already? Balance is not determined solely by the size of selectable characters. Its oh so much more than that.

I've seen my fair share of poorly balance games in my day with very small rosters.
 

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I did. How does that change anything, exactly? How did you determine (other than some personal preference in roster sizes in fighting games) that it's "too many" already? Balance is not determined solely by the size of selectable characters. Its oh so much more than that.

I've seen my fair share of poorly balance games in my day with very small rosters.
What are you talking about, I don't even... what?
Who said anything about balance?
....



How did I determine there are too many? Doesn't 41 seem like a huge pool of characters from which you only pick one to play a single match? If my math is correct thats a total of 820 possible character choices for a 1v1 match
 

Smo

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Completely agree with the OP, more characters might lower the game's quality.
I can go as far as saying there are already too many

Would just like it to be known that I didn't say adding more characters would hurt the game's quality, and that I made a a point of saying how much I actually trust PMBR to do a good job if they do add more characters. I just don't feel it is entirely necessary.

Also, I'm gonna have to agree and say Ylink and Pichu have no place in Project M. Toon Link has it covered. TL was even a better choice than YL in Brawl.

I think the main priority should be polishing what we already have, but I know PMBR will continue to do that anyway.
 

Fortress

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I think what people mean by 'lowered quality' is this sort of thing. Lowered quality in that it comes off as, I dunno, 'fanbuildish':

 

Miggs

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I still failed to see why we need young link. Does toon link not please people.
 

Saito

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General rule that more options is always a better thing.

That's how I think at least. Some people consider that overwhelming to have so many options, but I relish in having 40+ unique playstyles to try out and learn.
 

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General rule that more options is always a better thing.

That's how I think at least. Some people consider that overwhelming to have so many options, but I relish in having 40+ unique playstyles to try out and learn.
That's not a general rule.
More options only hinders game depth as there's too much to go about.
Look at melee (with a roster smaller than Brawl) 10 years ahead people are still coming up with new stats, and because of the nature of P:M it's very likely that 5 years from now people will be playing 2x better, and 10 years even better.
It's like adding 1 row and 1 column to chess with an extra pawn for each player and a new piece that moves differently
 

Kally Wally

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Complexity creep is a real thing, and it's just as bad as power creep, and probably harder to avoid. More =/= Better.

41 viable (semi-viable at worst) characters is a lot, in a game as dynamic as Smash. Especially considering that, as has been mentioned before, we still have a smaller player-character ratio than Melee.
 

Anti Guy

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That's not a general rule.
More options only hinders game depth as there's too much to go about.
Look at melee (with a roster smaller than Brawl) 10 years ahead people are still coming up with new stats, and because of the nature of P:M it's very likely that 5 years from now people will be playing 2x better, and 10 years even better.
It's like adding 1 row and 1 column to chess with an extra pawn for each player and a new piece that moves differently

No... not really. Not in a fighting game like this.

In a game like StarCraft? Hell yes. Any change has a substantial impact on all matchups and on every game featuring the race that you modified. More units or changes that improve a unit give you more options to work with and also give the opponent more to worry about. It changes timing and everything. What you're talking about with chess works similarly because every game will be different.

In a fighting game like Smash Bros, P:M? You have a developing metagame currently. Then you add another character. What does that to do to the current metagame? Absolutely nothing. Because all the matchups between all the original characters stay the same. The only thing new is all the new matchups surrounding the new character. So the only way that affects the metagame is possibly in tournament results, depending on how balanced that character is. But like I've said, it's a developing metagame, so those are always going through fixes. And likely anything off with the new character will be balanced by making modifications to that character than any of the original ones.

It's a simple concept, really.
 

PsionicSabreur

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I truly don't see much weight in the too few players per character argument, because that was essentially the case with the majority of the roster in Melee. There have been and there will always be underplayed characters. I don't see how citing Melee's simplicity even applies when it was achieved by essentially ignoring more than half of it's roster in competitive play. Characters in Project M may be ignored in much the same way, but changing design decisions to protect the current playerbase boundaries is a wasted effort, because the playerbase will inevitably change over time.

What makes matchups suddenly more important isn't that the roster is larger, it's that suddenly top tier characters don't get to power through a matchup with just one tactic. For example, a Sheik could be completely unfamiliar with the Roy matchup in Melee, but it wouldn't matter because chaingrab wins.
Given that the roster size isn't even the main cause of the matchup knowledge problem, I don't see a reason to limit it when so few slots are even being considered that they won't have an extreme impact either way.
If the argument is that top tier players really just can't be bothered to learn that one new matchup for a clone of an existing character, but would like to win anyways, I really don't know what to say.

Not to mention, it shouldn't be assumed that every single player will stick with one character and only be recognized for work with their main. When I look for good Roy players to learn from, plenty of them are actually playing Roy as a strong secondary. Trying to strike up a competition for best Roy main would be unnecessary and really not a concern that should change the design of the game.
I actually have high hopes that P:M will be able to give some weight to diverse players alongside the "main only" types. Fleshing out the playstyle spectrum seems like an attractive option to me because it allows multi-main players to have the option to make more subtle changes between characters, instead of "Here's gimmick 1, if that doesn't work I'll move on to gimmick 2." Instead, you are free to make small changes and carefully trade out strengths and weaknesses to best counteract your opponent's style while keeping an overall strategy that you are comfortable with.

I also don't see the point in asserting that adding any new characters at all is going to cause an unmanageable rise in complexity. Throwing in new niche or gimmick characters adds to complexity and excessive reliance on matchup knowledge, and I don't think that any more than 1 or 2 should be added for this reason, as well as the effort involved. On the other hand, a balanced clone that fits well within working knowledge of the game adds variety and less predictable gameplay. I would be just fine with the PMBR going to the slot limit with this kind of addition.
 

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@Silpheed
You gotta elaborate more and put a stop to those really unproductive responses

@Anti Guy
The main reason why Fox, while being considered the best melee character, hasn't shined (no pun intended) as much as Brawl's Metaknight (or Real Madrid's Dream Team) in the competitive scene is because most players find better and better ways to deal with this character.
Say that there's a new character added to the roster that has the same effect Fox had on melee, now players are more focused on what to pick against it and how to defeat it in the battlefield.
By your logic adding a new character to the roster changes nothing if it wasn't picked for the current match, while true on paper, it's a very shallow conclusion.
Another way to think about it is the idea of removing a character from the roster, do you think melee would have been the same if any top tier wasn't there to begin with?

@Psionic
Yes, even perfect balance might lead to some characters shadow other ones, but this happens entirely due to the current meta-game. But that doesn't mean they will be ignored considering that the tier gap is so much closer than it was before.
 

Anti Guy

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@Anti Guy
The main reason why Fox, while being considered the best melee character, hasn't shined (no pun intended) as much as Brawl's Metaknight (or Real Madrid's Dream Team) in the competitive scene is because most players find better and better ways to deal with this character.
Say that there's a new character added to the roster that has the same effect Fox had on melee, now players are more focused on what to pick against it and how to defeat it in the battlefield.
By your logic adding a new character to the roster changes nothing if it wasn't picked for the current match, while true on paper, it's a very shallow conclusion.
Another way to think about it is the idea of removing a character from the roster, do you think melee would have been the same if any top tier wasn't there to begin with?

Those arguments only apply for the top tier -- and remember, tiers and the metagame are still undeveloped. It's unlikely for new characters to jump ahead into the top tier. And even if they did, you'd just balance that character.
 

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Those arguments only apply for the top tier -- and remember, tiers and the metagame are still undeveloped. It's unlikely for new characters to jump ahead into the top tier. And even if they did, you'd just balance that character.
Isn't the whole idea of P:M to make all characters top tier? (or same-tier)
Which is the current top tier you refer to and what makes you doubt that they won't be placed there?
Isn't ironic that there exists a top tier already but people often quote that the meta isn't developed yet?
Since it exists, why haven't devs nerfed down the top tiers? or buff up everyone else?

How do you balance a character that's already as good as every other character should be?

Of course removing pichu from the melee roster leaves the game unchanged, but I took Fox as an example because it makes more sense since no P:M character is or will be as bas a pichu.
 

Fortress

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Isn't the whole idea of P:M to make all characters top tier? (or same-tier)
Just going to interject here and say "no". The 'goal' of P:M, as it were, is to introduce Brawl to a fast-paced engine whose environment rewards its players for knowledge of matchups and technical skill. Balancing the cast out is part of that, but the 'goal' is by no means to make everybody S-tier.
 

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Just going to interject here and say "no". The 'goal' of P:M, as it were, is to introduce Brawl to a fast-paced engine whose environment rewards its players for knowledge of matchups and technical skill. Balancing the cast out is part of that, but the 'goal' is by no means to make everybody S-tier.
hence why I wrote "same tier" aside.
If everyone is S-Tier is also safe to claim that everyone is D-Tier as long as they're on the same tier
 

Star ☆

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I honestly don't mind if they add more characters and to be fairly honest, as long as they have new and refreshing play styles then it would be a worthwhile addition to the game, regardless of the actual character they are.
 

Silpheed

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@Silpheed
You gotta elaborate more and put a stop to those really unproductive responses

It's hard to elaborate when I am rebutting utter nonsense. Is this the only fighting game you have ever played? How, or who told you that "more" characters hurts the game, again?

We can go from there.

I have been playing fighting games my entire life. Street Fighter 1-4, and everything in between. Roster size is not what dictates balance. There are some ****ty games with small rosters.
 

a vehicle

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It's hard to elaborate when I am rebutting utter nonsense. Is this the only fighting game you have ever played? How, or who told you that "more" characters hurts the game, again?

We can go from there.

I have been playing fighting games my entire life. Street Fighter 1-4, and everything in between. Roster size is not what dictates balance. There are some ****ty games with small rosters.
"I know more about fighting games than you"
What a riveting, compelling argument.

I'm done with these forums
 

Paradoxium

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Who gives a **** if another character is added, all you have to do is learn the damn match-up. Its not that hard. I cant believe there is an argument about this, honestly.
 

Taojaz

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I don't see what the problem is with having more characters. The PMBR has shown they're capable of making the cast balanced, and if they don't think that's feasible after a certain point, they won't do it. Say they added Roy, Mewtwo, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow(with Ganon's old moveset, giving Ganon a new one), Isaac, Little Mac, and Shadow. If they didn't think they could add all 7 of those while making them balanced and unique, they wouldn't do it. If it isn't possible, it doesn't happen, and if it is, then we have a larger roster that makes more people happy. It's win-win either way.
 

Saito

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I don't see what the problem is with having more characters. The PMBR has shown they're capable of making the cast balanced, and if they don't think that's feasible after a certain point, they won't do it. Say they added Roy, Mewtwo, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow(with Ganon's old moveset, giving Ganon a new one), Isaac, Little Mac, and Shadow. If they didn't think they could add all 7 of those while making them balanced and unique, they wouldn't do it. If it isn't possible, it doesn't happen, and if it is, then we have a larger roster that makes more people happy. It's win-win either way.
Everyone who Mained Ganon might not be happy with that scenario though.
 

Banjodorf

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Probably. To me it feels like wasted potential (and to a lesser degree fan service) to have those slots left and not use then. If I was a PMBR member, I'd jump at the chance to make my own additions to a Smash game people are really going to play.
 

Player -0

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All this salt everywhere. I feel Pichu should be obligatory for P:M (Lolbouttogetraged) and one PMBR original or smash original character. The original character for all the reasons of what people said above, it would differentiate P:M kinda and just make it like, "IT'S A WHOLE NEW SOMETHING."



Also before I get raged about Pichu:
- Different size then Pika
- Unique mechanic that no one else could pull off (Well canon-ically anyway)
- All those people saying, "Pichu was just BAD in Melee and is a handicap character." Isn't that the point of P:M? To balance characters and make things how the community liked?
- Getting Roy in and Pichu in wouldn't feel right, putting in one "bad" but unique character that acted similarly to Marth but not adding another "bad" but unique character that functioned similar to Pika?

Lolpersonopinionscomeatmebros.
 

PhantasyStar

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If we add a new character I'd prefer it be a new girl character, I won't make this into a 'ADD *character here* ' but it would just make a little bit of sense to add a new girl character
 

trojanpooh

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If we add a new character I'd prefer it be a new girl character, I won't make this into a 'ADD *character here* ' but it would just make a little bit of sense to add a new girl character

That's stupid. Characters should be added based on their own merits, not how many X chromosomes they have.
 

Lethalx

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But really pichu would be a waste like who really uses that crap character? If you go to a melee tournament who says "Man if only pichu was good" no one says that crap. Pichu needs to stay in its pokeball and not waste a extra character slot lmbo.
 

archedmaid

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Add Young Link, but change Adult Links Final smash to make it similar to Samus so at the end he put his sword back in the pedestal and turns into Young Link. Young Links final smash would be similar to ZSS and it would be him pulling the Master Sword out of its pedestal glowing in light then killing all opponents in its immediate vicinity thus turning back into Adult Link.

Only logical reason to add Young Link.
 

Lethalx

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Add Young Link, but change Adult Links Final smash to make it similar to Samus so at the end he put his sword back in the pedestal and turns into Young Link. Young Links final smash would be similar to ZSS and it would be him pulling the Master Sword out of its pedestal glowing in light then killing all opponents in its immediate vicinity thus turning back into Adult Link.

Only logical reason to add Young Link.
LOL in which case, it won't ever happen
 
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