Would anyone else prefer it if there were no more characters now?

[arcticfox8]

More characters are fun. PM isn't in a stage where there's a reliable metagame yet. So I say add Isaac and Lyn and Pichu and whoever else idc. I'll love whoever they add. I don't think having too many viable characters is a bad thing. Its really a good thing that you can throw a dart at your tv at the css and, after you fix/get a new tv, be able to main and do good with whichever character you hit. Thats a beautiful thing and the PMBR are beautiful people for doing this.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I dont understand why this is even an issue. With the way the pmbr has been making their characters, any character will have something interesting to bring into the metagame. As this game grows in popularity, because it definitely will, more characters will just mean more matchups and and more playstyles. How could a large roster possibly dilute the competetiveness of the game? It would just mean more styles to adapt to, which would be a good thing.

 

[RomeDogg]

The funny thing about the two combinations of Roy & Marth and Pichu & Pikachu is that they play much more alike then the combination of Young Link & Toon Link. So just incorporate a few Young Link moves to Toon Link and call it good? I think not. Even if 3 Links seems like a lot, for the Melee fans and smash fans in general its the right thing to do.

 

[Fortress]

I don't even want to argue about this. I don't get how you're not seeing it. You'd get nothing different from Yink save for a couple of normals. It's more than a "couple of Young Link moves" that Tink has going for himself. His jab, dash attack, b-air, and D-tilt would literally be the only attacks that are different. I'm not even kidding. Their specials perform nearly exactly alike. There's nothing that could be brought to the game with Yink that Tink doesn't already have. Seriously. Just what in the Hell would you even do to make Yink his own standout? Tink is everything Yink and 64 Link were, and better. Yink would effectively be P:M's Pichu/Roy.

The whole "because Maylay, he's a veteran" shouldn't even be taken into consideration. The "right thing to do" is whatever the P:MBR decides is the 'right thing to do'. You don't get to decide that, especially when you're not taking into consideration that Yink has already been consolidated into Tink already. In his entirety.

Really.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I'm happy with 3.0's roster, and I wouldn't mind at all if it stayed that way. That said, it would be pretty awesome if they filled up those extra slots. I'd like to see what they'd do with characters that have never been in a Smash game before.

 

[Fortress]

I'm happy with 3.0's roster, and I wouldn't mind at all if it stayed that way. That said, it would be pretty awesome if they filled up those extra slots. I'd like to see what they'd do with characters that have never been in a Smash game before.

Why do people want Lyn over the Black Knight. I'd love an Ikendorf. Plus, 'dat voice of his.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I guess because people want more women in Smash.

 

[arcticfox8]

I guess because people want more women in Smash.

But dude. Its Super Smash Brothers. Women don't belong here. We need to reduce the roster to the manly men, like Sheik and Samus. Take out all the dirty females, like Marth and Pit.

 

[Fortress]

Wait, are we really going to have this thread again? UMBREON, GET IN HERE.

 

[Exaggeratedhonesty]

can't women be blood brothers?

 

[RomeDogg]

Heck I would rather them just replace Toon Link with Young Link all together if you guys are all so worried about him "wasting a Character slot." Toon Link and Young Link play about as much alike as CF and Ganondorf do. For Young Link they could also simply change his down B to his Bombchus and his neutral B to his sling shot. Then they could leave the rest of his moves the same with tweaks and adjustments. Then they could just make Toon Link more like his Brawl self to further differentiate the two or 3. Although my argument isn't "because Melee" I find it funny when people say that because PM is based on Melee and is trying to emulate its mechanics to the bone. So how is that such a terrible response anyway? lmao Also for Pichu they could put emphasis on his speed. Also maybe they could keep that tacky self damaging system but in return they could make his electric attacks more powerful then Pikachus.

Also I am happy with the Dr. Mario and Mario solution. Though for Young Link something like that wouldn't suffice. The reason it worked for Mario and Doctor Mario is because they played so similarly and they were combined in a way that absolutely made Mario have everything Dr. Mario had to offer while maintaining all of his abilities and strengths. Young Link and Toon Link are too different. Like imagine how terrible it would be if they tried to combine Roy and Marth instead of giving us two separate characters. Besides it won't make LoZ have too many characters or anything since It would only make LoZ be tied with Mario characters and Pokemon characters would still be beating LoZ in amount.

 

[Fortress]

Toon Link and Young Link play about as much alike as CF and Ganondorf do.

Which is why I can't grasp that you think they need to change Tink at all. He's already Yink. Why would we need to change anything at this point? It's brainless suggestions like this that are just plain irritating.

For Young Link they could also simply change his down B to his Bombchus and his neutral B to his sling shot.

Why? What would the slingshot do? What would the bombchus do? Would the slingshot stun? Kill? Have high or no knockback? What about charge time? Trajectories? Could Yink act out of it faster because it's a smaller tool? Would bombchus climb walls? And just how hard is that to program (protip: extremely)? Saying "oh, they could eeeeeeeasily do this" without even having thought it out comes off as shallow.

Besides, having something like the bombchu would only limit Yink's recovery game; the bomb recovery is a huge way that Link/Yink/Tink players perform wild recovery, and the bombs themselves are weaved into off-stage AGT play. Yink wouldn't really have much in the way of mixups without that.

Another thing to consider with the bombchu is how it would affect Yink while in use; would he be able to lay them out one after another, or wait until one detonates? How would they affect a player who is shielding? How quickly would they 'run', and could a player simply jump them? Could Yink grab them? What would they do in the air? How long would they run until they exploded?

Then they could leave the rest of his moves the same with tweaks and adjustments.

Like they did with Tink, amirite?

Then they could just make Toon Link more like his Brawl self to further differentiate the two

Why? Tink was changed from Brawl so that he could be better. Making any character play more closely to how they did in Brawl can only be a step backwards in P:M's environment. Tink was given 64 Link/Melee Yink abilities simply because they'd fit Tink's role as a speedy zoner better in P:M than his vBrawl one.

Although my argument isn't "because Melee" I find it funny when people say that because PM is based on Melee and is trying to emulate its mechanics to the bone.

P:M's description states that it's not trying to be a "1:1 clone of Melee". Your argument is clearly "bcuz mayolee". You're talking about bringing back a character that in every sense imaginable is already in P:M.

The reason it worked for Mario and Doctor Mario is because they played so similarly and they were combined in a way that absolutely made Mario have everything Dr. Mario had to offer while maintaining all of his abilities and strengths.

Oh, you mean like what they did for Tink? With the same specials, tech, application of recovery, and majority of normals?

Besides it won't make LoZ have too many characters or anything since It would only make LoZ be tied with Mario characters and Pokemon characters would still be beating LoZ in amount.

If you're going to bring up the argument of representation, I'm going to bring up the counter that others would give you, which is "there are other characters out there with little to no representation that deserve it before another LoZ character".

Start thinking critically about these things before you speak up to suggest a character that we already have, and think past simpleminded nostalgia when you throw out a character like Yink. Having a crappier version of the bow in the slingshot and an impossible-to-code projectile like the bombchu aren't the kind of 'improvements' that could magically validate Yink.

 

[Szion]

Why? Everything about Yink has been incorporated into Tink already. As much as I hate Pichu, at least Pichu would be somewhat different than Pikachu. Yink shouldn't be taking up a spot when his presence is already felt in the game. Being a veteran shouldn't even be considered when bringing back a character like Yink. Yes, we have Marth/Roy now, but they perform so differently that it doesn't even matter at this point. Yink and Tink are pretty much one in the same by now.

Agreed. But i dont think YLink OR pichu should even be mentioned at this point, i just dont see a place for them. Seems like a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Silpheed]

I mean aside from pichu there isn't anybody that needs to be added. I mean I wouldn't mind if another one was added, but I'd prefer it to stay as it is for awhile.

That is what you call "Personal Opinion".

 

[Szion]

Also, I dont think black knight would fit into the game the way lyn would. Lyn would likely have a unique blade style, whereas black knight would be a slow swinging ike.. Also...Lyn's fanbase appears larger IMO o.o

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

That is what you call "Personal Opinion".

If you couldn't tell, I was referring to the fact that a mod of brawl to make it more like melee has incorporated all of the previous characters, completing the purpose that it was designed for. Anything else is beyond both what the PMBR set out to add, as well as beyond the P:M "mission statement."

But if there needs to be one character from any nintendo franchise added, my vote goes to tabuu

 

[Silpheed]

If you couldn't tell, I was referring to the fact that a mod of brawl to make it more like melee has incorporated all of the previous characters, completing the purpose that it was designed for. Anything else is beyond both what the PMBR set out to add, as well as beyond the P:M "mission statement."

I highlighted exactly what I was responding to. And that which is highlighted, is personal opinion.

 

[Anti Guy]

If you couldn't tell, I was referring to the fact that a mod of brawl to make it more like melee has incorporated all of the previous characters, completing the purpose that it was designed for. Anything else is beyond both what the PMBR set out to add, as well as beyond the P:M "mission statement."

Project M's Project Goal (taken straight from the main site):

Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:

• A fast-paced game
• with flowing, natural movement
• where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
• The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
• The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

It says nothing regarding what characters it adds or not. It's concerned only about the style of gameplay.

 

[Fortress]

Also, I dont think black knight would fit into the game the way lyn would. Lyn would likely have a unique blade style, whereas black knight would be a slow swinging ike.. Also...Lyn's fanbase appears larger IMO o.o

Lyn's fanbase is much larger, and, if any FE character is considered (assuming any characters at all) are considered for addition years, and years from now, it'd probably be her. I just love the Black Knight. PoR was my favorite FE title.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Actually nevermind, I do want one character to be added, tabuu. I mean rather than squabbling over which series deserves more representation, the actual game of brawl can be represented in project M by tabuu. Also the PMBR already has models of tabuu contained within brawl. In most of the series represented in brawl, both the protagonists and the antagonists are represented. In brawl, all the current characters are the protagonists, but the antagonist, tabuu, is not available to play as.


But still, this would be better as a 1 year anniversary celebration of the "final" release or 3.0 or whatever

 

[Fortress]

Tabuu and Primid for 3.1.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Primids are wimpy, tabuu is actually badass so he's already got that going for him. I mean making tabuu playable and decent is far easier than making master hand playable, both of which everyone who has finished the story has wanted to do forever.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

I'm pretty happy with the roster we have, to be honest.
If anyone else gets in, Pichu would probably be my top pick-- since the game could use a glass-cannon troll character that you can make opponents extra salty with. There's plenty of great candidates, but it seems more like we want them because they would be cool, while Pichu was actually playable and had people who played and mained him for twelve years.

I think there's a lot of potential to retool pichu and build a more interesting character out of his self-damage mechanics.
The costume argument doesn't really hold water IMO, since Pichu's size and proportions are so radically different.

But I shouldn't ramble on, haha.

EDIT: The reason I mention Pichu in particular is because he features unique mechanics like self damage, stronger electric attacks, lighter weight, etc. that Pika could never get away with having.

Doc and Young Link have already fusion-ha'd into Mario and Toon Link for the most part. The same can't be said for Pichu.

 

[Fortress]

ROBs are pretty wimpy. I'm improving my (and incorporating somebody else's) Primid moveset and mechanics as we speak. But, I agree, Tabuu would be hype. More characters from Smash, please.

 

[RomeDogg]

Fortress's senseless banter merits no response except for this... I was saying that changing a few moves was only an option, much easier than making a character absolutely from scratch with virtually nothing in common to the source cloned character through the clone engine.

And in response to Szion's statement.

Agreed. But i dont think YLink OR pichu should even be mentioned at this point, i just dont see a place for them. Seems like a waste of everyone's time.

It takes less time to convert a cloned Pikachu to Pichu or a Cloned Link or Tink to Yink than it does to make a new character completely from scratch. So that would be a much larger waste of time. They also appeared in a Smash title before and even in a Melee environment so there is definitely a place for them in a game emulating Melee.

 

[RomeDogg]

They also said they wouldn't make a characters alternative costume a different character. Pichu is not Pikachu plus didn't they bring his Melee hats back anyway? I think he is done with alternative costumes.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Fortress's senseless banter merits no response except for this... I was saying that changing a few moves was only an option, much easier than making a character absolutely from scratch with virtually nothing in common to the source cloned character through the clone engine.

And in response to Szion's statement.


It takes less time to convert a cloned Pikachu to Pichu or a Cloned Link or Tink to Yink than it does to make a new character completely from scratch. So that would be a much larger waste of time. They also appeared in a Smash title before and even in a Melee environment so there is definitely a place for them in a game emulating Melee.

I think it's also worth mentioning that we don't know everyone who's going to be in Smash 4 yet. Bearing that in mind, Pichu is by far the safest pick. It would be a shame if they put hundreds of hours into this awesome character just for them to be confirmed for SSB4-- and rendering all of that energy and time wasted.

 

[Fortress]

Fortress's senseless banter merits no response except for this... I was saying that changing a few moves was only an option, much easier than making a character absolutely from scratch with virtually nothing in common to the source cloned character through the clone engine.

What's senseless? You listed two ****ty attacks, and I gave you some reasons as to why they were ****ty attacks. You opted for the inclusion of Yink, and I let you know that you were a bit slow on the upkeep in that Yink had already been incorporated into Tink.

I didn't imply that you meant to make a Yink from scratch. I implied that the very notion of having Yink, and then making him bad, was paste-in-mouth ********. Why don't you stop and think for a second before calling a legitimate rebuttal 'senseless'.

Food for thought, in regards to your bombchu suggestion: What use could Yink have in a special that severely hampers his recovery where he used to have bombs? What could you do to vastly change Yink into a totally different character than Tink, without stripping him of what made him the kind of character he was?

Answer: nothing practical.

Those are the kind of things you need to think about when suggesting when talking about bringing Yink back;

• what could be done to make him different enough than Tink to make him his own character (and still be effective in doing what all iterations of Link have done so far (zoning))?
• why would a move be removed to hamper his tough and technical recovery game?
• where would he get comparable mixups to bomb AGT?

[Yink] also appeared in a Smash title before and even in a Melee environment so there is definitely a place for [Yink] in a game emulating Melee.

Yink's a totally different picture than Pichu. Where Pichu was just plain bad, Yink's in P:M; consolidated into Tink. There's no reason for him to come back when he's already here, and improved.

 

[RomeDogg]

I understand that they tried to make Tink like Young Link and he does have some of his moves but that isn't enough for me. I also just really hate Toon Link. What a stupid character to replace Yink. Heck the concept of creating Toon Link in the first place outside of Smash for LoZ games was stupid. Their must have been some lazy animators and artists. Like "Oh lets make his design simpler so we can put that much less time and effort into our product".

 

[Fortress]

that isn't enough for me.

Your first problem is that you have a huge personal bias towards Yink, rooted in Melee nostalgia.

I also just really hate Toon Link. What a stupid character to replace Yink.

Again, more bias. Your arguments are nothing but biased rants.

Heck the concept of creating Toon Link in the first for LoZ games was stupid.

Excuse me?

Their must have been some lazy animators and artists. Like "Oh lets make his design simpler so we can put that much less time and effort into our product".

Play through Wind Waker, I'm sure you'll find the extremely animated characters with their astounding use of facial expression and emotion to tell a much better story and convey to you what's going on in the character's world than the cardboard characters in Ocarina, or the ones in Twilight Princess. Wind Waker has, hands-down, some of the best methods of expressing how its characters feel in any LoZ title. Plus, cel-shaded stuff is harder to do than what you saw in Twilight Princess in terms of how the game looks. The expressions, the look, the music, everything in WW blends perfectly together to demonstrate the whole mood and feel of the game.

Simpler =/= Less effective

tl;dr: You're ********, and you should feel that way.

/rant 'gg' and all that.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

wait what
so I guess paper mario is stupid then. also the cell-shaded games are such a large part of the zelda pantheon it'd be silly to not acknowledge them.
I mean, legend of zelda already has five slots, 40% of whom are Link. Having three slots for one character who is just at different ages is kinda silly.

 

[Generically Epic]

As a Doctor Mario main, I LOVE what they did with mario and how they handled him. But when brawl came out, I was devastated that they didn't do what project m did, so I can understand the frustration. Especially when learning that he WAS planned for brawl but didn't make it. However, Pichu and Young Link weren't intended for brawl, but Vbrawl did plan replacements (pichus didn't make it, ylinks did).

However, the way Toon Link plays is a MUCH better version of Young Link in P:M. Toon Link just feels like what young link was trying to accomplish in melee but failed at doing. They took the best aspects of toon link (and tink from brawl minus) and fused him with the best aspects of young link. He has a better version of the fire bow, the fire dair sweetspot, and Tink has the Yink milk drinking taunt. They also decloned Tink enough from Adult link, so he isn't just a ****ty version of link. I really can't think of anything else from young link that they could fuse with tink to make tink better...
Really, I think the best compromise for Yink mains would be to have one of the texture hackers give Tink a Project M quality Yink costume (maybe one with a mask like deku so it looks a bit better) and put it on brawlvault. An official texture for him to be included in a future release would be awesome, but I think it falls outside the rules.

Now Pichu has like nothing for him at all, except for googles. Personally, I'm for plusle and minium from the forbidden seven being fused with pichu and replacing him, since that was vbrawl's original plan that didn't make it. Give them a pichu and shiny pichu color scheme for a texture, and give them some taunts and other animations from pichu. Personally, the idea of more ice climber like characters sounds awesome. :3 Besides, for pichu to be viable, he'd have to be reworked so heavily anyways...

 

[a vehicle]

Completely agree with the OP, more characters might lower the game's quality.
I can go as far as saying there are already too many

 

[Fortress]

However, the way Toon Link plays is a MUCH better version of Young Link in P:M. They took the best aspects of toon link (and tink from brawl minus) and fused him with the best aspects of young link. He has a better version of the fire bow, the fire dair sweetspot, and Tink has the Yink milk drinking taunt. They also decloned Tink enough from Adult link, so he isn't just a ****ty version of link. I really can't think of anything else from young link that they could fuse with tink to make tink better...
Really, I think the best compromise for Yink mains would be to have one of the texture hackers give Tink a Project M quality Yink costume (maybe one with a mask like deku so it looks a bit better) and put it on brawlvault. An official texture for him to be included in a future release would be awesome, but I think it falls outside the rules.

Thank you. Somebody saying the same thing I am; that Tink absorbed all of Yink's best qualities, and improved on them (there wasn't that much that was different between the two to begin with).

As for alt costumes with Yink on Tink, I don't think it can happen without messing around with his model more than a little. Tink's knees are practically in his ankles, and I've seen some goofy Yink remodels/textures. A lot of them have him stuck halfway in the floor, some with janky limbs, and, well, he looks silly.

 

[RomeDogg]

Well either side of the fence is personal opinion I was just stating mine. Also in my opinion Mario can pull off a cartoony look better than Link but a very good rebuttal. Though Fortress maybe one day in your delusional mind you may realize you are just as much "me" "I" "mine" and biased as anyone else. So anyway opinions of ours were expressed on the Link and Pichu subject matter so that's that. I'm done talking about it.

 

[Fortress]

you may realize you are just as much "me" "I" "mine" and biased as anyone else.

Please, I wear that sentiment out on my sleeve. You're preaching to the choir here. 'Disagreeable' and 'Opinionated' have been middle names of mine. Me being extremely opinionated and argumentative is old news to, well, anybody who's been on this planet for longer than a week.

 

[Silpheed]

Completely agree with the OP, more characters might lower the game's quality.
I can go as far as saying there are already too many

So 42 characters is the number that gets the turd rolling? Or you know the team will suddenly stop caring about the quality of the game at 42?

 

[Generically Epic]

Thank you. Somebody saying the same thing I am; that Tink absorbed all of Yink's best qualities, and improved on them (there wasn't that much that was different between the two to begin with).

As for alt costumes with Yink on Tink, I don't think it can happen without messing around with his model more than a little. Tink's knees are practically in his ankles, and I've seen some goofy Yink remodels/textures. A lot of them have him stuck halfway in the floor, some with janky limbs, and, well, he looks silly.

That's why I said a P:M quality texture. I really am ultimately imagining Toon Link basically cosplaying Young Link, maybe using a deku mask or something to cover the face.
Here's a reeeaallly bad example of what I mean:

I mean, I prefer something like this quality texture:

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

So 42 characters is the number that gets the turd rolling? Or you know the team will suddenly stop caring about the quality of the game at 42?

Once we hit 42 characters the PMBR will realize the meaning of life and go on a journey to fulfill their destiny.

 

[Fortress]

So 42 characters is the number that gets the turd rolling? Or you know the team will suddenly stop caring about the quality of the game at 42?

43 is the magic number. Once we get there, we're going to be at Kane and Lynch 2 quality.

I'm serious, the game will just boot KL2.

That's why I said a P:M quality texture. I really am ultimately imagining Toon Link basically cosplaying Young Link, maybe using a deku mask or something to cover the face. Here's a reeeaallly bad example of what I mean:

Spoiler

SO ANIMU KAWAII DESU RANDOM NYA NYA

But, really, Tink in Yink-esque clothing with their toonish coloration? That'd be pretty cool, and a nice nod to Tink's smash roots in Yink.