Worst matchup?

[Max Ketchum]

Just wondering, what would you guys say is Lucario's worst matchup? I'd say G&W, as he really can shut out all of Lucario's options effectively without having to change his playstyle. Especially on a stage with platforms, namely Battlefield, G&W gives me lots of trouble. Your opinions?

Other bad matchups, IMO, are DDD and Marth.

 

[Zujira]

GW, and DDD are the hardest for me, GW's much worse than DDD though.

I personally don't find Marths too hard, I'd say that's actually a pretty easy matchup once you learn it, which shouldn't take long with how many people use him.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

G&W is my hardest.

I haven't played many good Dededes yet to give my opinion on that matchup.

 

[Samuelson]

Marth, DDD and GW are really Lucario's only counters IMO.

Marth is better then Lucario in the air and on the ground so all you really have is your AS which he can cancel out with Ftilt i believe.

Wolf, TL and Lolimar are hard until you learn the matchup but once you do learn how to fight them it considerably easier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario is wierd with match-ups.

He doesn't have any horrible match-ups, but at the same time his good match-ups don't seem to get much better than 60-40 in his favor.

It's really hard to say when he's pretty neutral, with a few good and bad matchups, with most of the cast.

 

[Ilucamy]

Marth is actually pretty easy for me. I'd say my hardest is either Snake or GW cause they hit hard and fast. Mainly GW though because he can absorb the sphere too T.T

Your saving grace against DDD is just how fat he is. He's the simplest thing to combo other than Bowser, plus the CG doesn't really work on Lucario.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Yeah, it does.

 

[Ilucamy]

Yeah, it does.

Really? I've never been CGed by a DDD before
Maybe I just fight bad DDD's.

 

[Zujira]

You probably do fight bad DDD's. I get CG'd off one side of the stage, then as soon as I get back on I'm CGed again quite often.

 

[ckm]

This is why matchup discussions suck... people play bad players and assume the character isn't good against them.

I have played against good GW's and DDDs. Cant really say the same for marth, although ive played against decent ones. IMO, of the three, DDD is the toughest. The chaingrab is just too **** good, and his waddle-dees are like AS shields. Plus, his tilts and arials are strong enough to kill you at relatively low percentages, making it tough to survive long enough to get aura bonuses.

As tough as DDD is, though... I think Olimar is worse. And yeah, Ive played some pretty good olimar players. He just *****. Thats all I really have to say. And being able to double team when theres a pikmin on my face is not much consolation for getting owned.

 

[Timbers]

you're righti n believing that marth, gaw, and ddd are all difficult.

DDD is more of a "you have to play lame and gay the entire match to win" strategy, which gets tiring quickly. DDD vs. Lucario is the epitome of patience. Never approach him. You'll get punished most severely for it.

GaW and Marth are both meh. It's hard to describe how to get around either of them. GaW is a lot of fsmash spacing and generally staying the hell away from him. Marth you have to force openings, which can be difficult with Marth's all-around high priority moves.

 

[supergamer001]

DDD is horrible because waddle dees are way too ****ing good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAPFFUMOJAM
Yours truly getting Waddlecided. ****ing emo waddle dee...

 

[G-Beast]

i havent found any characters to be troublesome yet, not even Marth or GaW( i question why you all think GaW counter Lucario in fact, but i do agree that Marth is overly a tough matchup for Lucario, but not by much.. ), but then again i havent fought terribly good players for every character yet, the best falco i fought was kinda meh, he was annoying but didnt win... i havent fought a good Yoshi, Samus, or Lucas yet. when the friend finder comes back i plan to look for some tho

 

[mr_kennedy44]

DDD is horrible because waddle dees are way too ****ing good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAPFFUMOJAM
Yours truly getting Waddlecided. ****ing emo waddle dee...

o_O

Wow. That's the first time I've ever seen a Waddle Dee K.O. someone. I laughed at the picture at the end especially since it was combined with that particular song.

 

[Kitamerby]

i havent found any characters to be troublesome yet, not even Marth or GaW( i question why you all think GaW counter Lucario in fact, but i do agree that Marth is overly a tough matchup for Lucario, but not by much.. )

Theoretically, GnW should shut you down really really hard. In practice, you have a pretty good chance of winning, still.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Fun fact, Marth's ftilt can outrange any of your aerial approaches except jumping over his head and dairing, which you have to space near perfect to get away from a usmash.

 

[supergamer001]

o_O

Wow. That's the first time I've ever seen a Waddle Dee K.O. someone. I laughed at the picture at the end especially since it was combined with that particular song.

I've seen waddle dees kill about three times so far, to date I'm the only one waddlecided.

 

[Fizzle]

G&W = teh suck.

Marth is bad, too, but I don't think it's a terrible matchup. DDD is annoying as hell if he bair camps well.

 

[Linkshot]

I have trouble with Marth, mostly, but I don't get enough practice. Olimar is not a problem for me; I have so much practice against him. D3 isn't as big a problem, and I seem to do more decently against G&W than Marth.

 

[Timbers]

i havent found any characters to be troublesome yet, not even Marth or GaW( i question why you all think GaW counter Lucario in fact, but i do agree that Marth is overly a tough matchup for Lucario, but not by much.. ), but then again i havent fought terribly good players for every character yet, the best falco i fought was kinda meh, he was annoying but didnt win... i havent fought a good Yoshi, Samus, or Lucas yet. when the friend finder comes back i plan to look for some tho

GaW isn't a counter.

60:40 or 65:35 in GaW's favor, but still manageable. I shouldn't be the one to talk though, as I'm still working out the kinks in my game versus GaW.

 

[Silvran]

Well, I'll admit, I haven't played a good G&W, but I hate DDD. Partly because I hate when an opponent camps the entire match. Other characters I can get around it, but DDD... well, his defenses are so freaking annoying. Can't pressure him out of it from range with AS, can't close do to waddle things (and the spam), shield grabs with range comparable to forward air, and his forward tilt outranges everything... well, DDD is the king of camp, and I personally find it to be one of the most worst matchups for Luc.

 

[phi1ny3]

GaW isn't a counter.

60:40 or 65:35 in GaW's favor, but still manageable. I shouldn't be the one to talk though, as I'm still working out the kinks in my game versus GaW.

To me, he is T.T. I've had ample practice versus D3, Marth, and G&W, and Mr. 2D is one of the worst to fight imo. Scary good recovery, long reaching aerials, good combo/strings (especially with dthrow), and the bucket all make for a scary counter for me. Strangely, Marth hasn't been much of a problem for me.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Phil Nye...G&W gives me the most trouble.

 

[G-Beast]

Theoretically, GnW should shut you down really really hard. In practice, you have a pretty good chance of winning, still.

i dunno i just find him to be very predictable and if i space myself and only attack were i can hit, or give him a painful choice(IE airdodge AS after using UpB, Lag out from teh bucket, or get hit by AS etc), i dont find GaW to be hard

 

[Samuelson]

GW is the only matchup that scares me...

 

[Kitamerby]

i dunno i just find him to be very predictable and if i space myself and only attack were i can hit, or give him a painful choice(IE airdodge AS after using UpB, Lag out from teh bucket, or get hit by AS etc), i dont find GaW to be hard

That's my point, actually. You can't judge a matchup itself based on skill, mindgames, predictability, bait+punish, etc. since those have nothing to do with the characters themselves. That's half the reason why everyone thought Toon Link would be a god in this game, yet he's only in mid tier, and why Toon Link really does have problems killing, despite having lightning-quick kill moves that are extremely powerful.

Character-wise, GnW is our hardest matchup by far. When you factor in reality, though, you're usually more likely to have a little more trouble against King Dedede, as GnW users usually are pretty predictable and Fsmash gives them so much trouble.

If you try to add in mindgames and player skill into a character discussion, then you end up with Sonic_Boardism, where they think Sonic has a potentially even matchup against Lucario because of his speed and mindgame options. <<

 

[Linkshot]

If you try to add in mindgames and player skill into a character discussion, then you end up with Sonic_Boardism, where they think Sonic has a potentially even matchup against Lucario because of his speed and mindgame options. <<

Funny you should mention that! :D
You see, last night, I was playing an amazing Lucario, and it was Infzy's Sonic that stopped my Win Streak at 8 (granted, I flunked recovery), but he gave me good matches throughout the whole afternoon.

 

[Trapt497]

I don't have much G&W experience but i can say with certainty either he or Marth are the worst matchups for Lucario. Very tough matchups. There are different properties from each of these two that seriosuly gives Lucario some trouble.

Doom, if you want to see character specific matchup discussion check out jeepy's thread by that name. We havent done all characters yet and im not so sure if we have covered all characters mentioned in this particular thread.

 

[Max Ketchum]

DDD gives me more trouble than Marth. But yeah, I'll read the matchup discussions.

 

[Greenpoe]

I don't understand all the trouble vs. DeDeDe. I usually just approach with bair or fair&dair, double jump away and repeat. The only real problem is DDD's bair. His CG is no problem if you just space well.

 

[Max Ketchum]

A D3 that can camp bairs well will get around that. Plus, Aura Spheres get owned by Waddle Dees.

 

[JST]

I don't understand all the trouble vs. DeDeDe. I usually just approach with bair or fair&dair, double jump away and repeat. The only real problem is DDD's bair. His CG is no problem if you just space well.

You can only do that for so long (Although Luc is pretty good at outspacing D3's grab). If this is all you do, then D3 will be content to sit in his shield for the entire match while chucking Waddle Dees at you. And the CG is a big problem. Getting grabbed is inevitable (Especially with a monstrous grab reach like that). And when D3 gets a grab in, it's usually a free 16-35% plus a free attempt at edgeguard for DDD which could lead to even more damage if not a stock loss.

There's also D3's great air game. Bair outreaches all of Luc's aerials (Or at least trades hits with them). Fair, dair, and Uair all hit HARD and are as disjointed as hell with considerable vertical range and deceptive horizontal range on the fair.

Then there's also D3's ground game. Dtilt is deceptively fast and has deceptive range. Ftilt outranges Lucario and is faster than Luc's Fsmash. Waddle dees are fantastic projectiles with the added bonuses of being meatshields for AS and the occasional Gordo throw. D3's utilt is second only to Snake's in terms of killing power and sheer ridiculousness, and his smashes are not only terrific killers, but are decent mix-up/mindgame options.

Couple all this with D3's grab game and all the mix-up and pressure options he has, and D3 can be an terribly unpleasant if not outright frustrating match-up.