INTRO
Anyone remember this thread? JJ made it initially, and then almost a year back Seagull wanted to take it over but things never got anywhere. The idea of discussing tactics against each character and keeping a log is really good though, and long story short, I'm here to bring it back. More than just that though, I'm going to add a section on general tactics with Wolf that are really helpful. Ledge pressure, juggle traps, grab game, bair game, idk just all sorts of random things. Admittedly, I haven't thought that part out yet lol, but it'll come in time
As for how things will be organized, simple. If you put down information on a character, it'll go into the collapse tag under that character. Once there's enough information, things will be further broken down into categories such as situational tricks, punishment, recovery, etc (another thing I haven't fully thought out yet). If you mention a tactic that's useful against a number of characters, it'll go under the tactics section, possibly with a short list of characters that it works well on and characters it doesn't work well on (which you should provide when applicable). Everyone will have their tag linked to the information they provided, so that if anyone has a question on some of the material in the OP they'll know who to ask for the best answer. Please provide as much information to back up your statements as possible, ex. frame data for punishes OoS.
I guess that's it for now... here's the rough layout, let's get to work!
CHARACTERS
Bowser
PUNISHES
OFFSTAGE / LEDGE PLAY
WHAT NOT TO DO
EFFECTIVE TACTICS
OFFSTAGE / LEDGE PLAY
WHAT NOT TO DO
EFFECTIVE TACTICS
Captain Falcon
Diddy Kong
- (...) the best way to deal with him is to generally avoid all direct conflict with him while he's generally untouchable / invincible, which is whenever he's in a neutral position.
General game plan goes like this imo:
Match starts / neutral position outside of banana range -> laser all day [with and without banana] until he decides to close in. Best zone for you to be in because Diddy has no direct answer to it obviously. If you have the space for it or are unsure what to do retreating via the air with a laser is almost always a good idea. EDIT: Laser isn't needed if you already managed to establish your lead. The point is mainly to avoid direct confrontation as long as Diddy isn't in close range. Sometimes Laser isn't safe if Diddy is somewhere between close and mid-range but that's when bair, shine, dsmash or DACUS work just fine. Since high mobility is a major factor on both sides of the match-up you might find that it's better to not overuse laser.
Mid-range / Diddy tries to approach after losing lead -> cover approaches with bair, dsmash, fsmash [in order of preferrence]; only chase him if he's in the air, once he's on the ground retread for long-range battle. NEVER chase him with dash [side-B covers most dash options], alwas with aerial mobility. Only go into close range battle if you have a banana in hand. This is an evenish zone with slight advantage for Diddy because of his superior frame data, fair, side-B and combo options at mid % [side-B -> banana is really gay]. Wolf has less room for error here - your main advantage is that retreating will improve your options against Diddy. EDIT: All of that still applies but it should be added that it's better to ignore his banans to some extent when you're in that range. Instant catching / throwing, Z-catching or retreating fair are the tools to pick up bananas with. Don't EVER go for a banana that is close to Diddy on the ground ... IT'S A TRAP. You don't wanna go close to him without a banana in your hand.
Close range -> This is Diddies zone; if he gets there get the hell out. Jump away asap and try to reset the situation by shaking him off or hitting him with jumpshine -> AAA and go into long-range or mid-range [in order of preferrence]. If you have a banana use it here and ONLY here [everywhere else Diddy will either get it back or you can't punish his trip adequately]. EDIT: Not necessarily the only situation to use bananas in. Actually, I'm starting to think that mid-range to close-mid range is the ideal position to use bananas. Diddy' boxing game is one of the few that straight-up rivals that of a space animal and in my opinion Wolf has the shorter straw in that position. You can still do stuff in that zone with a banana but I'd avoid it nonetheless since bananas are fairly useful at all range zones. (Gheb)
- Don't let him get back on stage cause he has no real way to get back onto stage or land really
When on the ledge, Diddy will throw a naner out and try to bait you to grab it, try to get back on stage by jumping (you can hit him with a bair or uair), other than that he has no options. Throw the bannanas away off stage if possible and he will just try to repeat the same action plank a bit with his up b . And they are bad because look at them what makes them good? honestly when do you see diddy using naners as a projectile they use them as traps so they can get their follow ups and to deal with them really depends on the player if you know how to use naners USE them if you honestly don't throw them offstage (Shiro)
[collapse=Banana talk]- honestly if diddy has a banana in hand and in front of him don't approach him cause you will always get punished
another reason why naners are bad projectiles and better traps if you have one in front of you youare gonna be blastering while the diddy is gonna do what lolpenuts (Shiro)
- i like throwing the bananas up and just chilling behind them (JJ)
- He's gonna side-b onto the stage/ledge whenever he can, but even when he has to use the jetpack, it isn't terrible. If he's got a banana in hand, he can even chuck it at you to help guard his safe return.
And bananas being bad projectiles? Holy hell is that ever wrong! Bananas are easily one of the most useful projectiles in the game, if not THE most useful. While a lot of their usefulness can come from laying traps, as you mentioned, that's maybe half of what a good diddy is gonna do with them. Since he can have 2 in play, he's gonna place one someplace onstage to help him punish you later, and the other one is usually going to be used in his approach. Once he has optimal spacing on you, he's gonna hit you with that naner, make you slip, and continue punishing you in whatever manner he possibly can. Some players may not even lay traps just so they have multiple naners to use as projectiles. If you space it right, you can get people to fall over and over again by catching them again as they hit. They're freaking awesome. Just cuz you can't blindly hurl them across the stage doesn't mean they're bad, or that they're any less of a projectile.
My knowledge of the Diddy matchup is pretty limited, but I can throw in what I know. Gaining control of his bananas is a big deal. You should always have one in your hand whenever you can. If you have it, he doesn't. Since there can be only 2 in play, either he's got the other one, or it's on the stage. If it's on the stage, he probably wants it back. Camp it. You won't be able to "stop" him from getting it if he really wants it, but those are free blaster hits for you, at the very least. Learn to use the banana you're holding onto too. Try not to just run up and throw it at him, cuz he'll catch it. I find it easier to throw them vertically to punish him when he's above or below you. It's a trajectory not normally available to Wolf's projectile game so hopefully it'll catch them off guard. Also, if he's holding a banana, he can't catch yours, so chuck it on your approach. He'll either shield/spotdodge, leaving you with a naner under your control on the floor near him (awesome), or he'll scramble to pick it up, giving you a slight opening. If you're inexperienced with using them, watch what they're doing, you might learn something. Even if you try and fail at using his naners against him, at least you're disrupting HIS use of them by taking them from him. Most of this is less "WolfvsDiddy advice" than it is just generic "HowtofightDiddy" advice, but there you have it. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
- diddys bananas are decent projectiles and excellent traps. If you're going to use bananas against diddy you have at least be decent with them because if youre banana game is limited you'll be destroyed by a diddy who knows what he's doing, throwing it back at diddy so simplily is just hand diddy his banana back, he can just catch the banana with a z catch, aerial, or not even at all and also keeping it in your hand is not always a good idea because all of wolfs aerial options are limited leaving him open for juggles and shine baits. Also diddy can easily SH banana toss when you are lazering and if you commit to a shine you can still be punished. (Vato_break)
- It's not that hard to keep the naner in your hand, and just toss it away when you want to use bairs and fairs and whatnot. Generally keeping them away from Diddy is way better than tossing it offstage, cuz he'll just pull a new one. Even if you're not being sucessful with tossing them at Diddy, holding onto it and tossing it away just before your approach isn't hard. You could even get into mindgames with making him think you're about to approach if he notices you always doing that, but that's a whole different thing. And if Diddy is already holding a naner, he can't catch the one you're throwing at him without some ridiculous reaction time. At the very least, you'd be keeping him on his toes. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
- But when he does spawn more naners you can punish him for that. you can get flashy and mind game with his naners but in the long run wolf needs his aerial game. (Shiro)
- its very easy to instant throw a banana back lol, i practice all the time since i am a diddy main... they don't travel very fast. the point of getting rid of them is so diddy has to take out more, you don't let him do this, if you pressure him he won't be able to out more. The key to beating diddy is beating his banana game, if you do this you can win. (Vato_break)
General game plan goes like this imo:
Match starts / neutral position outside of banana range -> laser all day [with and without banana] until he decides to close in. Best zone for you to be in because Diddy has no direct answer to it obviously. If you have the space for it or are unsure what to do retreating via the air with a laser is almost always a good idea. EDIT: Laser isn't needed if you already managed to establish your lead. The point is mainly to avoid direct confrontation as long as Diddy isn't in close range. Sometimes Laser isn't safe if Diddy is somewhere between close and mid-range but that's when bair, shine, dsmash or DACUS work just fine. Since high mobility is a major factor on both sides of the match-up you might find that it's better to not overuse laser.
Mid-range / Diddy tries to approach after losing lead -> cover approaches with bair, dsmash, fsmash [in order of preferrence]; only chase him if he's in the air, once he's on the ground retread for long-range battle. NEVER chase him with dash [side-B covers most dash options], alwas with aerial mobility. Only go into close range battle if you have a banana in hand. This is an evenish zone with slight advantage for Diddy because of his superior frame data, fair, side-B and combo options at mid % [side-B -> banana is really gay]. Wolf has less room for error here - your main advantage is that retreating will improve your options against Diddy. EDIT: All of that still applies but it should be added that it's better to ignore his banans to some extent when you're in that range. Instant catching / throwing, Z-catching or retreating fair are the tools to pick up bananas with. Don't EVER go for a banana that is close to Diddy on the ground ... IT'S A TRAP. You don't wanna go close to him without a banana in your hand.
Close range -> This is Diddies zone; if he gets there get the hell out. Jump away asap and try to reset the situation by shaking him off or hitting him with jumpshine -> AAA and go into long-range or mid-range [in order of preferrence]. If you have a banana use it here and ONLY here [everywhere else Diddy will either get it back or you can't punish his trip adequately]. EDIT: Not necessarily the only situation to use bananas in. Actually, I'm starting to think that mid-range to close-mid range is the ideal position to use bananas. Diddy' boxing game is one of the few that straight-up rivals that of a space animal and in my opinion Wolf has the shorter straw in that position. You can still do stuff in that zone with a banana but I'd avoid it nonetheless since bananas are fairly useful at all range zones. (Gheb)
- Don't let him get back on stage cause he has no real way to get back onto stage or land really
When on the ledge, Diddy will throw a naner out and try to bait you to grab it, try to get back on stage by jumping (you can hit him with a bair or uair), other than that he has no options. Throw the bannanas away off stage if possible and he will just try to repeat the same action plank a bit with his up b . And they are bad because look at them what makes them good? honestly when do you see diddy using naners as a projectile they use them as traps so they can get their follow ups and to deal with them really depends on the player if you know how to use naners USE them if you honestly don't throw them offstage (Shiro)
[collapse=Banana talk]- honestly if diddy has a banana in hand and in front of him don't approach him cause you will always get punished
another reason why naners are bad projectiles and better traps if you have one in front of you youare gonna be blastering while the diddy is gonna do what lolpenuts (Shiro)
- i like throwing the bananas up and just chilling behind them (JJ)
- He's gonna side-b onto the stage/ledge whenever he can, but even when he has to use the jetpack, it isn't terrible. If he's got a banana in hand, he can even chuck it at you to help guard his safe return.
And bananas being bad projectiles? Holy hell is that ever wrong! Bananas are easily one of the most useful projectiles in the game, if not THE most useful. While a lot of their usefulness can come from laying traps, as you mentioned, that's maybe half of what a good diddy is gonna do with them. Since he can have 2 in play, he's gonna place one someplace onstage to help him punish you later, and the other one is usually going to be used in his approach. Once he has optimal spacing on you, he's gonna hit you with that naner, make you slip, and continue punishing you in whatever manner he possibly can. Some players may not even lay traps just so they have multiple naners to use as projectiles. If you space it right, you can get people to fall over and over again by catching them again as they hit. They're freaking awesome. Just cuz you can't blindly hurl them across the stage doesn't mean they're bad, or that they're any less of a projectile.
My knowledge of the Diddy matchup is pretty limited, but I can throw in what I know. Gaining control of his bananas is a big deal. You should always have one in your hand whenever you can. If you have it, he doesn't. Since there can be only 2 in play, either he's got the other one, or it's on the stage. If it's on the stage, he probably wants it back. Camp it. You won't be able to "stop" him from getting it if he really wants it, but those are free blaster hits for you, at the very least. Learn to use the banana you're holding onto too. Try not to just run up and throw it at him, cuz he'll catch it. I find it easier to throw them vertically to punish him when he's above or below you. It's a trajectory not normally available to Wolf's projectile game so hopefully it'll catch them off guard. Also, if he's holding a banana, he can't catch yours, so chuck it on your approach. He'll either shield/spotdodge, leaving you with a naner under your control on the floor near him (awesome), or he'll scramble to pick it up, giving you a slight opening. If you're inexperienced with using them, watch what they're doing, you might learn something. Even if you try and fail at using his naners against him, at least you're disrupting HIS use of them by taking them from him. Most of this is less "WolfvsDiddy advice" than it is just generic "HowtofightDiddy" advice, but there you have it. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
- diddys bananas are decent projectiles and excellent traps. If you're going to use bananas against diddy you have at least be decent with them because if youre banana game is limited you'll be destroyed by a diddy who knows what he's doing, throwing it back at diddy so simplily is just hand diddy his banana back, he can just catch the banana with a z catch, aerial, or not even at all and also keeping it in your hand is not always a good idea because all of wolfs aerial options are limited leaving him open for juggles and shine baits. Also diddy can easily SH banana toss when you are lazering and if you commit to a shine you can still be punished. (Vato_break)
- It's not that hard to keep the naner in your hand, and just toss it away when you want to use bairs and fairs and whatnot. Generally keeping them away from Diddy is way better than tossing it offstage, cuz he'll just pull a new one. Even if you're not being sucessful with tossing them at Diddy, holding onto it and tossing it away just before your approach isn't hard. You could even get into mindgames with making him think you're about to approach if he notices you always doing that, but that's a whole different thing. And if Diddy is already holding a naner, he can't catch the one you're throwing at him without some ridiculous reaction time. At the very least, you'd be keeping him on his toes. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
- But when he does spawn more naners you can punish him for that. you can get flashy and mind game with his naners but in the long run wolf needs his aerial game. (Shiro)
- its very easy to instant throw a banana back lol, i practice all the time since i am a diddy main... they don't travel very fast. the point of getting rid of them is so diddy has to take out more, you don't let him do this, if you pressure him he won't be able to out more. The key to beating diddy is beating his banana game, if you do this you can win. (Vato_break)
- You can crouch under SH fair with dsmash (Ish)
[collapse=Gimp talk]- Wolf can gimp diddy with a nair when diddy is recovering upwards with his barrel (MCP)
- Not sure if nair is the best option just cause if you get the sour spots you'll get spiked i think shine is a much better option if you want to gimp diddy while he is below you (Shiro)
- the first time I tried it I almost died cause I was way below the stage and ended up saving diddy with my up b so the second time I did it I waited a little bit for diddy to get near the ledge hit him with it then it worked you can also ff bair but thats even more dangerous :T (MCP)
- Nair may actually work better for gimping him than Shine because the nair hitbox lasts longer and is harder for Diddy to avoid. Imma test this. (Gheb)
- it's one of the reasons i dont try it too much; if you screw it up, you end up below a diddy holding the edge. no bueno.
since upB charges, it isn't entirely predictable, but the longer they charge the more time it takes to get to the edge and the more time you have to react. i think with practice it would be useful. on the other hand, just like wolf, if diddy is forced to space an upB from directly below he's already ****ed up plenty hard (Tekkie)
- Again even if it does have multiple hitboxes if you hit with the sour spots you'll end up below diddy if not getting hit by the barrels and possibly getting gimped
I've tried it many times when I would play vato or jebus it may just be me but I have an easier time just shining rather than nairing also anothre up with shine > nair is that diddy can charge for a while until he up bs so if wolf nairs he is stuck in that animation and just up b though that nair if he shines he can still jump shine or up b back safely since its a quicker move (Shiro)[/collapse][/collapse]
Donkey Kong
Falco
- Against Falco, space bairs well and at low %s where they'll be going for the grab I find it helps a lot to shine when you think you're about to get punished with a grab. Jump out of shine when reflecting his lasers and time your own lasers when he SHs to hit him on landing to win out the camping war. (Ish)
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
- Against ICs, you can usually beat their SH uairs with shine if you're on a platform above them. Try to laser or shine their sideB for a free follow-up. SH around a lot and wait for them to do something punishable, it actually works pretty well lol. (Ish)
Ike
Jigglypuff
King DeDeDe
- Against DDD, don't get grabbed for the love of God. You can easily outcamp his dumb waddles with lasers, and gordos can be reflected back. If you manage to get him in the air, be sure to mix up fair and uair to juggle him, which is really good advice for any mu. You'll probably either swing a suprise vertical kill on him, or edgeguard him when you get his % high. Dsmash is too risky cuz you gotta be in grab range to do it. Just bair him offstage while he's coming DOWN from his upB to edgeguard him. It's not an easy mu, but if you're patient, and don't get grabbed, you can wear him down. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
- You can hit him out of his neutral B with bair provided you space it around the hitbox. If you don't want to get swallowcided, hit him coming up from below when he's offstage or hit the top of his head when he's onstage. (Ish)
- You can hit him out of his neutral B with bair provided you space it around the hitbox. If you don't want to get swallowcided, hit him coming up from below when he's offstage or hit the top of his head when he's onstage. (Ish)
Kirby
Link
Lucario
- If lucario uses his DJ but doesn't land on stage just grab the ledge and chill. he'll be forced to upB back on stage and that's a free attack, usually a fair. (Tekkie)
- Lucario can (on some stages) wall-cling and wait long enough for you to lose your invincibility. Then he's got options from there, which include punishing you if you're just gonna hang there. You're almost always better off leaving the stage to edgeguard Lucario when his DJ is gone, because his upB can't hurt you. Just get out there and bair him, but be ready to shine if he's got a charged up AS.
FD
BF
FO (right side of first transformation is the only one he can't cling)
PS1
CS (left side of first tranformation only)
YI
Brinstar (he can only cling to the ledges between the breakable part tho)
Not sure about RC but I imagine you can cling parts of the boat...
I throw my friends off all the time dodging their edgehogs by clinging to the sides and wall jumping past them. Just be aware of the option, cuz it isn't nearly as laggy as ES onto the stage. If he slips by you while you're dropping off the ledge, now he's got a practically free dair and you're the one in the bad position, so just keep an eye out. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
- Lucario can (on some stages) wall-cling and wait long enough for you to lose your invincibility. Then he's got options from there, which include punishing you if you're just gonna hang there. You're almost always better off leaving the stage to edgeguard Lucario when his DJ is gone, because his upB can't hurt you. Just get out there and bair him, but be ready to shine if he's got a charged up AS.
FD
BF
FO (right side of first transformation is the only one he can't cling)
PS1
CS (left side of first tranformation only)
YI
Brinstar (he can only cling to the ledges between the breakable part tho)
Not sure about RC but I imagine you can cling parts of the boat...
I throw my friends off all the time dodging their edgehogs by clinging to the sides and wall jumping past them. Just be aware of the option, cuz it isn't nearly as laggy as ES onto the stage. If he slips by you while you're dropping off the ledge, now he's got a practically free dair and you're the one in the bad position, so just keep an eye out. (PrivateJoker-Brown)
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Marth
- Against Marth, if they're trying to land with fair and spacing it to hit you when you're upright, you can usually dodge with dsmash and catch them on their landing. You can also trade fairs all day since Wolf is heavier, so don't hesitate to challenge his SH fairs with your own. Also, fighting Marth is a lot of "whoever has a stupid whiff first is getting destroyed" lol. Other than that, Marth gets juggled worse than Wolf, Wolf has it worse when he's offstage, and both can have a pretty tough time when on the ledge. (Ish)
Meta Knight
Ness
Olimar
Peach
- Mixing up between grounded and SH lasers to cover her approaches works really well as long as you keep at a safe distance. SH laser (FH if she's floating higher) shuts down her float approaches, and her grounded approaches are limited to dash attack / dash grab / glide toss which are all avoidable if you're lasering properly. (Ish)
Pikachu
Pit
Pokemon Trainer
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Charizard
Ivysaur
Charizard
R.O.B.
- If he's trying to juggle you, shine through and instantly uair to get back to the ground safely and also put him above you. Works pretty well because of his large hurtbox and floatiness. (Ish)
- We have a disadventage on the ground, but we have an advantage on the air. Most Robs will keep grounded camping from afar and trying to aproach with Ftilt, Nair, Bair and even Fsmash. If they get close to you on the ground, they are going to win the struggle most of the time, with either Dsmash, jab or a grab, his jab is specially annoying since you cant spotdodge it. If you predict a Dsmash shield it and Usmash OoS. And if you see him trying to start a Nair close to you, Fair him before the atack starts.
You will never shieldgrab a ROB unless his spacing is terrible, but if you grab him throw him up on the air or try the grab release to Side B. Robs is awful on the air if you are below him, you can easily get 50% on juggles using Uair, Fair, Bair, Baiting dodges, whatever, since his falling speed is terrible and he doesnt have any decent atack to hit people coming from below.
Kiling rob can be a hard time, specially since he can shut down all our smashes -.-, and start moving in a way that only Fair or Bair would hit him. Still most robs Ive played love to spotdodge, so read one and get your Dsmash on him.
Also this should be obvious, but never go offstage vs this guy, if he sends you offstage return the quickiest way possible our youll die, go under the stage if neccesary, and always prepare for a lazer when get sends you offstage from a distance, please dont lose your second jump with the laser. (Sync)
- We have a disadventage on the ground, but we have an advantage on the air. Most Robs will keep grounded camping from afar and trying to aproach with Ftilt, Nair, Bair and even Fsmash. If they get close to you on the ground, they are going to win the struggle most of the time, with either Dsmash, jab or a grab, his jab is specially annoying since you cant spotdodge it. If you predict a Dsmash shield it and Usmash OoS. And if you see him trying to start a Nair close to you, Fair him before the atack starts.
You will never shieldgrab a ROB unless his spacing is terrible, but if you grab him throw him up on the air or try the grab release to Side B. Robs is awful on the air if you are below him, you can easily get 50% on juggles using Uair, Fair, Bair, Baiting dodges, whatever, since his falling speed is terrible and he doesnt have any decent atack to hit people coming from below.
Kiling rob can be a hard time, specially since he can shut down all our smashes -.-, and start moving in a way that only Fair or Bair would hit him. Still most robs Ive played love to spotdodge, so read one and get your Dsmash on him.
Also this should be obvious, but never go offstage vs this guy, if he sends you offstage return the quickiest way possible our youll die, go under the stage if neccesary, and always prepare for a lazer when get sends you offstage from a distance, please dont lose your second jump with the laser. (Sync)
Samus
Sheik
Snake
- Honestly vs snake just blaster spam and run away, If you get a good lead start fighting with juggles and those stuff you learnt many times. Shield his Ftilts and Punish with Fsmash. Once you get a high percentage snake most likely will want to kill you, so stay away from the God kick and spam your blaster until you get his % to be like yours.
So yeah, I havent seen yet a wolf trying to fully camp a snake without going physical, our camp game can do much more damage than his. From a distance, short hop blaster goes at the same height as his grenades, so good timing will explode them in snakes face. Basically in my experience, spam snake until he calls you a cheap player and then remind him youre using a single button to atack him. See if it works for you too (Sync)
- If Snake does a full Ftilt on shield then it's punishable by fsmash.
Don't use too much laser vs Snake cause it'll probably "hilt a nade" (If you get what I mean).
Use dashing shield and make sure to be able to shield quickly cause you can run up to Snake, ps the ftilt 1 then grab and Dthrow.
Get him offstage and Dair if he's low (Unrealistic, but can happen).
Try not to use too much Fair because it's usually the safest and most effective kill option.
Use Bair wall, but not into Snake. Just bait him. If you can get him to use Utilt and miss then you can always land behind him and aaa (To refresh moveset) or bthrow to get him in the air and follow up from there.
If Snakes are constantly SHAD'ing back onstage then you should be grabbing or punishing them.
Snake is floaty so when he is low and recovering via a double jump or regular jump, a Dsmash is almost always guaranteed. (Seagull)
- learn to make juggling and ledge trapping snake work (JJ)
- Against Snake, don't try to grab him out of cypher because a good Snake will cancel it before they enter grab range and just grab the ledge. Instead, go for dsmash, as Seagull mentioned before it'll hit them as they're upBing. Another thing I like to do a lot in this MU is regular getup when he dthrows me into shine, basically a free escape if they don't have near perfect timing, but regular getup gets destroyed by SH dair :x (Ish)
So yeah, I havent seen yet a wolf trying to fully camp a snake without going physical, our camp game can do much more damage than his. From a distance, short hop blaster goes at the same height as his grenades, so good timing will explode them in snakes face. Basically in my experience, spam snake until he calls you a cheap player and then remind him youre using a single button to atack him. See if it works for you too
(Sync)- If Snake does a full Ftilt on shield then it's punishable by fsmash.
Don't use too much laser vs Snake cause it'll probably "hilt a nade" (If you get what I mean).
Use dashing shield and make sure to be able to shield quickly cause you can run up to Snake, ps the ftilt 1 then grab and Dthrow.
Get him offstage and Dair if he's low (Unrealistic, but can happen).
Try not to use too much Fair because it's usually the safest and most effective kill option.
Use Bair wall, but not into Snake. Just bait him. If you can get him to use Utilt and miss then you can always land behind him and aaa (To refresh moveset) or bthrow to get him in the air and follow up from there.
If Snakes are constantly SHAD'ing back onstage then you should be grabbing or punishing them.
Snake is floaty so when he is low and recovering via a double jump or regular jump, a Dsmash is almost always guaranteed. (Seagull)
- learn to make juggling and ledge trapping snake work (JJ)
- Against Snake, don't try to grab him out of cypher because a good Snake will cancel it before they enter grab range and just grab the ledge. Instead, go for dsmash, as Seagull mentioned before it'll hit them as they're upBing. Another thing I like to do a lot in this MU is regular getup when he dthrows me into shine, basically a free escape if they don't have near perfect timing, but regular getup gets destroyed by SH dair :x (Ish)
Sonic
Toon Link
- If TL hits your shield with an aerial, you can punish with a quick fair/bair OoS (Ish)
- (...) there's no point in challenging his vertical spacing ever. I personally choose to not follow up on any juggle set-up because it's neither safe nor necessary and I always make sure to cover his uair first when he's going in for the juggle himself. Just play it smart in the neutral position [use jabs / shine to deal with recovery] and the match-up isn't very hard unless the TL blatantly outplays you. (Gheb)
- A lot of TL's like to jump > (dj) bomb pull, which leaves them quite vulnerable to bair strings. Also, you can punish dair on shield with uair, as well as dair on hit if you're grounded sometimes by throwing out a quick aerial like nair. (Ish)
- (...) there's no point in challenging his vertical spacing ever. I personally choose to not follow up on any juggle set-up because it's neither safe nor necessary and I always make sure to cover his uair first when he's going in for the juggle himself. Just play it smart in the neutral position [use jabs / shine to deal with recovery] and the match-up isn't very hard unless the TL blatantly outplays you. (Gheb)
- A lot of TL's like to jump > (dj) bomb pull, which leaves them quite vulnerable to bair strings. Also, you can punish dair on shield with uair, as well as dair on hit if you're grounded sometimes by throwing out a quick aerial like nair. (Ish)
Wario
- Against Wario, keep in mind that you match his airspeed and have superior aerial range. Fair/bair/uair outrange, and fair/uair/shine outdisjoint all of Warios aerials. It's even possible to shine through his uair, although if you get baited be prepared to DI well.
Warios usually like to dodge a LOT so make sure you know how to hit him in airdodge/spotdodge cooldown. Camp him, he lacks an immediate projectile so blaster all day. If you see him bite outside of your range, charge a fsmash (dsmash if you're closer) and release on reaction to them ending the bite.
If he pulls out the bike, watch out whenever you're near it because most Warios love to extend their hitboxes with that thing, especially with multi-hit moves like dair and DACUS. On the flip-side, it makes single-hit moves easier to punish on block/whiff because of the extended hitbox. Unfortunately, we don't reap the same benefits since we lack real multi-hit moves, and the bike also hinders blaster-spam, so if you have a lead don't approach a bike-camping Wario. Be weary about breaking his bike while camping because of tires, but imo Wolf is capable of dealing with them fairly well so it's up to you.
Something I still need to work on is crouching once you have the lead. From a crouch, you can directly dtilt, down-angled ftilt, fsmash, usmash, shine, and jump. When you're in that lower position, it's a lot harder for Wario to approach since his aerials won't hit at the apex of his jump, so with good reaction time you can adequately keep him out. Beware of jump making you stand upright though, only use that if you see him AD or start an attack from a stupid distance so you can escape. Shine beats EVERY attacking aerial approach he has, except for perhaps a well-spaced bite, so be prepared to shine > jab if he aerials in an unsafe range in a desperate attempt to hit you. (Ish)
Warios usually like to dodge a LOT so make sure you know how to hit him in airdodge/spotdodge cooldown. Camp him, he lacks an immediate projectile so blaster all day. If you see him bite outside of your range, charge a fsmash (dsmash if you're closer) and release on reaction to them ending the bite.
If he pulls out the bike, watch out whenever you're near it because most Warios love to extend their hitboxes with that thing, especially with multi-hit moves like dair and DACUS. On the flip-side, it makes single-hit moves easier to punish on block/whiff because of the extended hitbox. Unfortunately, we don't reap the same benefits since we lack real multi-hit moves, and the bike also hinders blaster-spam, so if you have a lead don't approach a bike-camping Wario. Be weary about breaking his bike while camping because of tires, but imo Wolf is capable of dealing with them fairly well so it's up to you.
Something I still need to work on is crouching once you have the lead. From a crouch, you can directly dtilt, down-angled ftilt, fsmash, usmash, shine, and jump. When you're in that lower position, it's a lot harder for Wario to approach since his aerials won't hit at the apex of his jump, so with good reaction time you can adequately keep him out. Beware of jump making you stand upright though, only use that if you see him AD or start an attack from a stupid distance so you can escape. Shine beats EVERY attacking aerial approach he has, except for perhaps a well-spaced bite, so be prepared to shine > jab if he aerials in an unsafe range in a desperate attempt to hit you. (Ish)
Wolf
- If you predict a scar/semiscar you can shine to give Wolf RCO lag that can be capitalized on with a dashgrab or dsmash, among other (generally) lesser options. (Ish)
Yoshi
- Yoshi's only approach (outside of a lot of approaching spotdodges, maybe?) through well-spaced grounded lasers is SH > djc egg lay, which is really obvious since a non-RAR SH means either egg lay or nair, and he rarely will be close enough for a nair if you're lasering at an appropriate distance. Since you limited his approach to only one thing, it becomes quite easy to punish if you don't laser after he jumps for the egg lay. Really annoying for Yoshi to deal with lol (Ish)
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
- Against ZSS, don't airdodge into the ground, like, ever. Dsmash and such deals a ton of damage. Her dtilt has good range and puts you in a position where you might feel inclined to AD, but don't :x You can fsmash her under her sideB sometimes if she's doing it out of a SH, it's kinda weird. She has a tough time killing you if you stay grounded, so try to use your aerial mobility to get away from her juggles and whatnot. (Ish)
TACTICS
GRAB GAME
Air Release > SideB
Air release > sideB is cool, here's the original link. Characters with frame 1 invincible moves (Marth's upB, Ivy's neutral B (never tried the latter, but it has frame 1 invincibility) can get out, but otherwise it's guaranteed because of airdodge having a frame of startup. I like to set it up with dashgrabs to the ledge because otherwise Wolf doesn't force air releases but it's good to keep in mind in case your opponent is mashing jump, just remember that you'll probably end up offstage falling to your doom. Stages with tilts help force air releases, but sometimes the tilt change (YI platform, Lylat) throws off the sideB and the opponent gets sent backwards so they live, beware of that.
but it's good to keep in mind in case your opponent is mashing jump, just remember that you'll probably end up offstage falling to your doom. Stages with tilts help force air releases, but sometimes the tilt change (YI platform, Lylat) throws off the sideB and the opponent gets sent backwards so they live, beware of that.More to come later!
Don't hesitate! When the time comes, just act!
