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Anyone having any luck with serious/worthwhile waveshine combos?
As far as I can tell, his waveshine game is far inferior to fox and falco's.
Fox can drillshine some characters infinitely and has real, hard follow ups such as more shining, grab, uthrow/uair, upsmash. 2 of which have insane killing potential Fox can also kill with shine/bair
Falco has his ever potent shine/dair which can go on indefinitely as we all know and can lead to tech chases (punished with fsmash to kill) and etc. we all know about shine/dair. Falco can also kill with shine/bair
Wolf has poor horizontal vertical range for a shine that sends at such an angle.
How do you all feel about wolfs kill moves? (sweetpost fair, fsmash, dmash etc.)
Anyone care to point out what they consider a kill move for him?
I feel like fair sends at too strange of an angle and is actually weak for a kill move especially when compared to fox and falcos sex kick and bair (which I all tested in da lab).
Fox's bair and sex kick, which are not even his primary kill moves, kill at lower percents than Wolf's fair (and dair most likely).
Same for Falco.
Now I compare wolf's fair to 2 other moves that are used in a very similar way. Falcon's knee and sheiks fair. Now stay with me. Wolf uses's his fair in the same way that falcon and sheik use their's but his it harder to hit with, weaker, and has less favorable knockback and both have superior set ups. I am comparing these just to show how wolf stacks up and how his moves compare to other's. I think wolf is not up to par with other proven characters. I'm not saying wolf should get a falcon knee lol.
Sheik vs Wolf Fair
I think the benefits outweigh the cons for Sheik.
Falcon vs Wolf Fair
Falcon's knee is clearly superior to wolf's fair lol. I'd even call it inferior to Mario's fair.
I also think the options out of shine are subpar (exponentially when compared to fox/falco) and he lack's the kill setups and dangerous moves that fox (uthrow/uair, upsmash, shine spike) and falco (dair etc.) have. I even feel is bair is inferior to fox's and falco's even though that could be incorrect.
Also as a direct comparison, wolf cannot follow up out of shine as consistently as fox or falco from an objective standpoint. Not from the quality of the follow up moves.
I like playing him since he is one of my favorite characters but I currently find no reason to play him. Just my thought, I think he'll wind up as a like a 55-60% percentile middle but closer to high tier character when a tier list gets put together.
I seriously can't find a reason to use him over another spacey or other established character other than fun. I have not played enough of wolf to flawlessly assess his metagame and all options but I've been doing a lot of viewing on youtube as well and I can't say wolf is anything special at this point in the metagame and in PM.
Also there are just little things like the fact that his dair is a meteor smash and not as spike. It doesn't even work well with Wolf's low short hop height combined with how long it takes to come out. It's not like it's spammable like shffld falco dairs or wolf is already too good.
Now I am saying most of this because I interpreted the changes made to wolf were to make him a serious competitor and to give him good, if not great, options. If that was not the intention then we are having a separate talk.
I would personally like to see a slightly improved wolf or gameplay to change my mind. Keep in mind I'm not saying wolf is bad.
He's basically what mario is to Doc in melee.
Closing Points
When you have fox and falco (among other top tier characters) why use a Wolf?
I understand he's different, I play a lot of wolf but he's lacks great options imo.
Feel free to contest anything. But please read the entire post and do not try to discredit the entire critique by pointing out a flaw. I am sure this isn't perfect.
I used a bit of color coding just so you don't get lost in a sea of words.
I love PM btw though. That is why I'm criticizing it.
EDIT:
Unrelated question, did PM fix wolf's issue with recovering from meteor smashes that he had in brawl?
As far as I can tell, his waveshine game is far inferior to fox and falco's.
Fox can drillshine some characters infinitely and has real, hard follow ups such as more shining, grab, uthrow/uair, upsmash. 2 of which have insane killing potential Fox can also kill with shine/bair
Falco has his ever potent shine/dair which can go on indefinitely as we all know and can lead to tech chases (punished with fsmash to kill) and etc. we all know about shine/dair. Falco can also kill with shine/bair
Wolf has poor horizontal vertical range for a shine that sends at such an angle.
How do you all feel about wolfs kill moves? (sweetpost fair, fsmash, dmash etc.)
Anyone care to point out what they consider a kill move for him?
I feel like fair sends at too strange of an angle and is actually weak for a kill move especially when compared to fox and falcos sex kick and bair (which I all tested in da lab).
Fox's bair and sex kick, which are not even his primary kill moves, kill at lower percents than Wolf's fair (and dair most likely).
Same for Falco.
Now I compare wolf's fair to 2 other moves that are used in a very similar way. Falcon's knee and sheiks fair. Now stay with me. Wolf uses's his fair in the same way that falcon and sheik use their's but his it harder to hit with, weaker, and has less favorable knockback and both have superior set ups. I am comparing these just to show how wolf stacks up and how his moves compare to other's. I think wolf is not up to par with other proven characters. I'm not saying wolf should get a falcon knee lol.
Sheik vs Wolf Fair
- Both Combo Finishers
- Kill Moves
- Sheiks's fair is easier to hit with
- Sheik's is much, much harder to sour spot than Wolf's (if that's even in melee/pm)
- Sheik's is more powerful as far as knock back goes (not sure about %)
- Sheik's sends at a favorable angle
- Side note, wolf is sold as a juggler, I feel sheik has a superior juggling game
- Sheik cannot follow up her fair like a sourspotted wolf fair
I think the benefits outweigh the cons for Sheik.
Falcon vs Wolf Fair
- Falcon's knee has great gimping potential and can clip opponent's with the weak hitbox to stop their recovery off/below stage
- Falcon's fair like wolf's is a combo finisher
- Falcon's knee is easier to hit with
- Both Kill moves
- Falcon's is notably easier to kill with
- Falcon's is great for techchasing because the hitboxes are active for so long
- Side note, wolf is sold as a juggler, while falcon has a far superior juggling game
- Falcon and Wolf can both follow up a sourspotted fair
- Falcon cannot follow up a "Sweetpotted" knee easily
Falcon's knee is clearly superior to wolf's fair lol. I'd even call it inferior to Mario's fair.
I also think the options out of shine are subpar (exponentially when compared to fox/falco) and he lack's the kill setups and dangerous moves that fox (uthrow/uair, upsmash, shine spike) and falco (dair etc.) have. I even feel is bair is inferior to fox's and falco's even though that could be incorrect.
Also as a direct comparison, wolf cannot follow up out of shine as consistently as fox or falco from an objective standpoint. Not from the quality of the follow up moves.
I like playing him since he is one of my favorite characters but I currently find no reason to play him. Just my thought, I think he'll wind up as a like a 55-60% percentile middle but closer to high tier character when a tier list gets put together.
I seriously can't find a reason to use him over another spacey or other established character other than fun. I have not played enough of wolf to flawlessly assess his metagame and all options but I've been doing a lot of viewing on youtube as well and I can't say wolf is anything special at this point in the metagame and in PM.
Also there are just little things like the fact that his dair is a meteor smash and not as spike. It doesn't even work well with Wolf's low short hop height combined with how long it takes to come out. It's not like it's spammable like shffld falco dairs or wolf is already too good.
Now I am saying most of this because I interpreted the changes made to wolf were to make him a serious competitor and to give him good, if not great, options. If that was not the intention then we are having a separate talk.
I would personally like to see a slightly improved wolf or gameplay to change my mind. Keep in mind I'm not saying wolf is bad.
He's basically what mario is to Doc in melee.
Closing Points
- Wolf is an inferior clone to Fox and Falco
- I personally find inferior clones pointless, especially in a game the developers have the power to change "actively"
- (Ex. if they were to add Doc to PM and make him better than mario, why use mario?)
- (Ex. if they added a clone to the top-teir sheik that was inferior, why use her?)
- Wolf's dair could stand to come out a tad better out of his SH
- Wolf's fair which is a major kill move/contender is weak compared to similar attacks
- Wolf's fair is comparatively weak for a kill move as a whole
- Shine combo's are a tad lacking
- Wolf falls a bit too fast and can't jump high enough to have a serious juggling game. Especially at decent %s
- Fair has some weird angling
- Shine could stand to send opponent's less far away or more vertically and less horizontally.
- Fox/Falco, have multiple, more and better kill moves
When you have fox and falco (among other top tier characters) why use a Wolf?
I understand he's different, I play a lot of wolf but he's lacks great options imo.
Feel free to contest anything. But please read the entire post and do not try to discredit the entire critique by pointing out a flaw. I am sure this isn't perfect.
I used a bit of color coding just so you don't get lost in a sea of words.
I love PM btw though. That is why I'm criticizing it.
EDIT:
Unrelated question, did PM fix wolf's issue with recovering from meteor smashes that he had in brawl?
SSBBWiki said:Wolf additionally possesses a recovery that is heavily susceptible to gimps, being a fast faller with a vertical recovery move (Fire Wolf) that has severe angling issues, and a particular vulnerability to meteor smashes, as Wolf suffers an inexplicable 60 frame delay when meteor cancelling (even low knockback meteor smashes can send Wolf down too far to recover).