Wolf 's Potential and Possible changes

[G13_Flux]

dthrow does the same stuff that bthrow does except at higher percents or on floatier people. my recomendation is a dash attack or DACUS of these throws, since they lead directly to vertical juggles that can allow u work the opponent off stage either way or just kill them vertically. if u get just before the threshold of these throws not comboing anymore (the percent past which the opponent can escape form mostly anything) then a side b will work if u can get the kill, or a running uair will work to set up for side b (if u wanna get them closer to the edge before landing the kill) or set up into other stuff. uthrow, will do what these throws do as well except on fastfallers and with not as much horizontal KB, which means it can be a CG or it will set up straight into a shine, utilt, or upsmash (since at low percents, a dthrow or bthrow on fastfallers only sets up a tech chase). the fsmash follow up actually does have some use when covering quick range that would otherwise be unable to be followed up on, or it can just push the opponent right off the stage, at the mercy of wolfs great edge guarding, but the use is situational and i generally always follow up with something that can lead to more combos.

also, fthrows only use IMO is when ur right on the edge and wanna keep the opponent off it. it sends them almost at a semi spike angle which is great for setting up gimps and taking stocks. it is very useful, but only in this situation.

 

[Scythe]

I find that at kill percents you get a 50/50 with either bthrow or dthrow depending on your opponents DI, if they DI in on either of these throws it's a guaranteed fair which kills.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah thats true. and if they DI down on any of them, a simple up b will cover like almost all of their options. up b to me is like ganons wizard foot except quicker and you cant tech it (with good reaction you can SDI down to floor tech wizards foot at any percent, making it less reliable of a kill move at the top of the metagame).

 

[Scythe]

hmm i really haven't used up-b as a offensive weapon before, start up seems too slow for that.

 

[G13_Flux]

well the start up really isnt that bad. its not useful for an approach, but during a tech chase its quick enough and has enough range to cover a lot of options, so its useful in that regards. i find myself getting a fair amount of kills with, particularly against people with more linear/limited range recoveries like ike, marth, DK, Bowser, wario, and falco who cant recovery from the angle that it sends them at offstage.

 

[BTmoney]

Insert preliminary-troll comment troll-wolf average wolf is average
16/33 in a b4stardized unofficial tier list
Almost the definition of troll wolf-average being average

Just my thought, I think he'll wind up as a like a 55-60% percentile middle but closer to high tier character when a tier list gets put together.

and

Spoiler

Average From 15 Tier Lists

Top
1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Marth

5. Peach

6. Mario

High
7. Jigglypuff

8. Lucario

9. Ike

10. Diddy

11. Pit

12. Wolf

13. Falcon

Mid
14. Link

15. Snake

16. Ganondorf

17. Sonic

18. Pikachu

19. Lucas

20. Squirtle

Low
21. Zelda

22. Donkey Kong

23. Bowser

24. Zero Suit Samus

25. Wario

26. Ivysaur

27. Toon Link

Bottom
28. Charizard

29. DeDeDe

30. R.O.B.

31. Ness

32. Luigi

33. Game and Watch

​

Where he is 12/33
/serioustroll

 

[G13_Flux]

where did this list come from? im going to have to contest a lot of it unfortunatly lol. ganon is too high, mario is too high, sheik is too high and link is too high. wolf, snake, zard, lucas, GW, and DDD need to be higher. especially GW and DDD. idk what prompts people into thinking theyre bottom. people need to get past melee GW and actually look at the character now.

those lists to me are bassically like copies of the melee upper tier and copies of the brawl bottom tier. i think some of it is on the right track, but i think more if it is still stuck back in melee/brawl mode. cant say im fully impressed with it.

 

[BTmoney]

It's on the tier list speculation page

And link really is that good now lol
And how did sheik get worse lol?

 

[G13_Flux]

she didnt get worse, but its sort of like the case of jiggs where i feel that increased diversity is going to contribute to more MUs that arent in her favor.. Im just having a hard time swallowing that its seriously going to be like fox falco shiek for top tier. Theres a lot of great characters that were added, and i think their is going to be more newcomber representation in the top teir.

 

[GunBlaze]

The person who I've seen use Side-b the most would be Magus, but I don't know if the old build he was playing how much Side-b was different or whatever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7nDTbCbWOA

Sorry but at 2:44 that is the funniest laugh I've ever heard

Now I know why ppl said Wolf was broken in the alpha XD

 

[G13_Flux]

well in all honesty side b has actually gotten better IMO in 2.5. the hitbox is a tad smaller, but u can angle it now, giving it more overall precision and a wider range of usage vs DI. I STILL think that people do not abuse the awesome things about wolf enough, and WAY too many players fall susceptible to stupid spam habbits whenever they play wolf, which holds him back and i think a lot of the time gives him a slightly bad rep. i have yet to see someone play very intelligently and consistently precise with wolf. being consistent with him is one of the hardest things to do, since he is a very difficult character to gain complete control over (IMO, hes got a bigger skill cap than fox). i believe myself to be extremely intelligent with him and not falling to the spam habbits, but i still dont have all the technical skill to do eveything perfectly everytime, and its very hard to be consistent in that with wolf, moreso than other characters. im certainly not the wolf god, nor am i the smash god lol but i think i have a good grip on the character at least. side b (and side b cancels in turn) are definitely something that people need to develop in order to get reliable kills with wolf off nearly any of his set ups, of which he has A LOT.

 

[DrinkingFood]

We have a disturbing number of uninformed players contributing to that tier list's averages... I hope a real back room (by which I mean non-dev) can form once all the characters have been released to provide more accurate results. Granted, stricter access to a backroom and to tier list contribution doesn't weed out all the incorrect beliefs, but it much more likely to reduce the differences to small things, rather than us having Ike and Marth at 8 and 9, far above where they belong, pit not being top tier despite having a falco level projectile and being one of the few characters I think could challenge the top 3-4, and snake and wolf being middle off the line rather than ~top ten.

 

[GunBlaze]

For the first tiem, I agree with this salty, heated-discussion-loving poster

 

[DrinkingFood]

*shrug*

Spoiler

10shrug

 

[G13_Flux]

i agree with that too. too many people go by first impressions on the characters (eg. ike) and dont put enough analysis into it. i think its way to early to really even be creating tier lists anyways. but i guess people need the hype somewhere.. lol

 

[BTmoney]

rather than us having Ike and Marth at 8 and 9, far above where they belong, pit not being top tier despite having a falco level projectile and being one of the few characters I think could challenge the top 3-4, and snake and wolf being middle off the line rather than ~top ten.

Why do people trash Marth so much? Lucario currently gets ***** by CC and I don't think Mario is better than Marth. Marth being 8 is fine possibly a spot or so higher.

Pit should be a spot under Marth and 1 above Ike.

In no order, these characters are all simply contenders for top 10:
Falco
Fox
Sheik
Marth
Ike
Jigs
Lucario
Link
Mario
Peach
Link
Pit
Sonic

Now that's 13 good characters fighting for 10 slots. Snake and wolf are also pretty good but is it really realistic to have both snake and wolf in there?

 

[Spiffykins]

Snake and Wolf are both better contenders for top 10 than some others on that list IMO. Wolf is turning out to be one of the more popular characters so I think we'll start to see very soon just how well he fares.

Since the title of this thread includes "possible changes", what would you guys think about Wolf's full jump height being increased? Considering the vertical nature of his combo game, I think this would be a valuable buff. I know Wolf is his own (space) animal, but if we're taking cues from Falco, it would only make sense for his jump height to be a bit better.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Wolf and Snake are gonna be top contenders, i guess it's too early to say that though, but i've use them both and **** are they awesome, and they are effiecent in what they do.

Could anybody please tell me how to use Wolf's blaster properly, i suck at it, like ideas mostly, or where to waveland etc.

Edit: yay 200 posts

 

[DrinkingFood]

there's a thread about wavelanding out of wolf's blaster in the wolf forums, it's got some good **** go check it out

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah there are a few techniques you will see in there that involve using platforms and WLing to ur advantage. the WL out of wolfs blaster gives him A TON of mobility options, more than fox or falcos blasters. he can bait and punish very effectively with it, it gives him great stage control options to zone out other players, and it forces them to react and creates openings for yourself. You can also utilize the wavebounce you can do with it to further enhance your baiting and punishing game, and it gives added degrees of mobility and control over your position. with such a great mobility that comes from a slow moving, bulky projectile, a huge portion of wolfs defense relies on this special attack. IMO, wolfs defense consists of his shine, bair, and situational uair OOS, retreating/autocancelled bair walls (yes they can be autocancelled, its just sort of hard to do and requires quick fingers), and his blaster. hes got other tools in there like dmash and usmash that are honestly great on shield and provide huge coverage, but they can be baited, making them not quite his most valuable options (but are still great when used carefully). The blaster is probably his move with the most utility next to shine, as it allows for great offensive and defensive maneuvers, and can rack damage fast in general. With that and his great air speed and ground speed alike, his mobility options even exceed that of fox overall. so if i were you sixth sense, i would definitely practice the WLind as much as you can to get out down on command. it adds a lot of depth to wolfs play, and is a really genius maneuver implemented by the PMBR.

edit: @spiffykins, i would actually agree that a larger jump height would really improve wolf. his aerial juggles would really be complimented by it. something else that is sort of subtle, but that i think would open up a couple good options for wolf is to make it so he can attack out of his up b attack after he bounces on the ground with it. as in, when you up b into the ground (with fox falco or wolf) they hit the ground then bounce up a certain height (but still unable to attack or do anything), then land and then they can attack again. well if u make it so he can attack right after that bounce, when he goes into the air, he could immediately start a combo out of that, and it could aid immensely in getting back to the ground from above and getting combos off up b tech chases, particularly after an aerial dair. it would function sort of like squirtles aqua jet attack out of his side b, except that wolf would perform aerials, and not an aqua jet-like attack. this being said though, as it is now, i dont think wolf needs these improvements. sure they would make him better, but hes already VERY good. some wont agree with me, i know this lol, but i think he is an easy contender for not only top ten, but top tier as well. i think further improvements might make him a bit OP. if the PMBR were to implement something like jump height change, i think they would also alter his fast falling speed a little bit to compensate, but thats actaully not a bad trade off when u think of how wolf can benefit from a higher jump. it would depend on the severity of the change though, cuz i certainly dont want his amazing SHFFL and vertical mobility to be hurt.

 

[Scythe]

i dont like wolf's laser, i rather just go in and combo : /

 

[BTmoney]

That compels me to ask you if you use a substantial amount of lasers while using Falco.

I'd say they are just about as useful. It's so hard go gauge though.

edit:
Wolf needs more horizontal aerial mobility (falcon-esque but not that much lol)

 

[Spiffykins]

edit: @spiffykins, i would actually agree that a larger jump height would really improve wolf. his aerial juggles would really be complimented by it. something else that is sort of subtle, but that i think would open up a couple good options for wolf is to make it so he can attack out of his up b attack after he bounces on the ground with it. as in, when you up b into the ground (with fox falco or wolf) they hit the ground then bounce up a certain height (but still unable to attack or do anything), then land and then they can attack again. well if u make it so he can attack right after that bounce, when he goes into the air, he could immediately start a combo out of that, and it could aid immensely in getting back to the ground from above and getting combos off up b tech chases, particularly after an aerial dair. it would function sort of like squirtles aqua jet attack out of his side b, except that wolf would perform aerials, and not an aqua jet-like attack. this being said though, as it is now, i dont think wolf needs these improvements. sure they would make him better, but hes already VERY good. some wont agree with me, i know this lol, but i think he is an easy contender for not only top ten, but top tier as well. i think further improvements might make him a bit OP. if the PMBR were to implement something like jump height change, i think they would also alter his fast falling speed a little bit to compensate, but thats actaully not a bad trade off when u think of how wolf can benefit from a higher jump. it would depend on the severity of the change though, cuz i certainly dont want his amazing SHFFL and vertical mobility to be hurt.

I don't think it would require any other changes. Falco has that teensy short hop and monster full jump, it would be nice if Wolf had a less extreme version of that. I frequently see Wolf players missing aerial follow ups because their opponent was launched just out of reach, which is obviously a problem Falco rarely has to deal with. Like I said, it doesn't need to be as extreme, it's just that his jump seems a little stubby right now.

Being able to attack out of up-b bounce seems like it would tread on Pikachu's fuzzy little paws. Let the yellow rat have his own turf, man.

 

[G13_Flux]

i love wolfs laser, it just takes a little more focus to use it. its very rewarding though, and compliments his combo game by giving him an extremely safe set up. i can see why some people dont like it, cuz u have to put the extra effort in to be consistent with it, but regardless, at the top of the metagame theres no doubt in my mind it is an extremely important asset.

but wolf actually more aerial mobility AND air speed than falcon. in addition, they can both transfer the same percentage of momentum into jumps from runs. the only difference in that case is that falcon has a faster run speed, so he will ultimately get a larger momentum out of it, which is where u might have gotten mixed up after knowing how falcon can leap offstage to chase his enemies so well.

also, im not saying that i think wolf needs the trade off (i would love to see him have a larger jump, really), but it is definitely how the PMBR would think. look at how they adjusted robs forward smash. even though its relatively the worst fsmash in the game in terms of power, you would think they would just straight up buff it, but instead they compensated by making it slower. just looking at trends, if they were to implement a change like that to wolf, i cant see him being straight up buffed with it cuz i feel they would want a compensation. and i also really wasnt even thinking of pikachu in all honesty. i guess it would be similar to his QAC, but i dont think its something that shouldnt be implemented for the reason of keeping it unique to pickachu. however i dont believe its something that needs to be implemented at all, like i said. its just something that i can see WOULD make him better and would absolutely have a use.

 

[`dazrin]

...You guys do know that the tierlist you guys are referring to is based off of random people's opinions made within the first few weeks of release?

That list isn't accurate at all and should never be referred to as evidence of anything lmao

 

[BTmoney]

Insert preliminary-troll comment troll-wolf average wolf is average
/serioustroll

...You guys do know that the tierlist you guys are referring to is based off of random people's opinions made within the first few weeks of release?

That list isn't accurate at all and should never be referred to as evidence of anything lmao

Now how serious did that sound again? And even then, no lol.

 

[RedGamer]

let me just start our by saying that I love wolf and he is my main in P:M.
I find it easy to just pick wolf up as a main since I main falco and captain falcon in melee.
I was using muscle memory from falcon and falco to pull wolf comboes that I never thought possable because, combo-wise, I think wolf is much like falco and falcon combined.

on the other hand, wolf's nair is SO annoying because I thought since it was a mulit hit move I could use it like fox's dair,
but it doesn't seem like it functions anywhere near the way fox's dair functions and it's not as safe imo.
it just feels really...weak...for some reason. weak and Crouch Cancelable to no end.
you have to be super fast in order to get any follow-ups, like the shine (which also feels CC'able and slightly weak IMO), D-smash, or forward smash.

speaking of those smashes, I think that they are very well done.
I love the excellence of wolfs up smash oos, though I think it would be better to speed it up just a bit.
not the overall speed of the upsmash, but just the first hit. make it come out 2 or 3 frames quicker.
down smash is godlike! it's awesome! F-tilt is too good!

another thing that bugs me a bit is that wolf doesn't seem to have the ledge sweetspot range that fox/falco had in melee.
and also the grab range doesn't feel safe. it fells like you have to be dangerously close to get a grab in.
wolf's spacing seems a bit inconsistent as well, but overall, wolf is my sort of character.
these are just the issues that I believe are holding wolf back from moving up on the tier list.

I do thank and appreciate the PMBR for all the effort that's put in to this project.
keep doing what you're doing. the project is awesome!

 

[G13_Flux]

while i do agree with most of what u said redgamer im going to have to disagree with a couple things, so forgive me haha. but nair is actually much safer than foxs dair. it actually CANNOT be crouch canceled due to its angle, and has a landing hit, which alows it to combo into grabs and even a dsmash at just past mid percent ranges. i find it very useful. shine IS CCable, but only if u are just using it randomly on an opponent. if you use it on shield or after a nair then you do not run that risk, plus you can just multi shine to avoid the CC unless your facing peach or someone with a very fast CC. fsmash actually works very well against CCing because of its second hit. as far as usmash goes, wolf has the second quickest OOS maneuver in the game with shine (fox's is one frame faster due to lower amount jumpsquat frames), so i tend to find usmash as an inferior option in almost any OOS situation. i also find wolfs spacing to be actually very good, and in fact superior to many characters due to his quick SHFFL, range, and aerial mobility. bair, fair, ftilt, dsmash, dtilt, and even blaster can work as superb spacing tools, with all being very safe on shield with range unless the opponent is like DDD. additionally, his grab range is actually pretty fair, having a larger grab range than fox and almost the same range as falco. plus his JC slide is very good so it makes it very useful.

but either way, wolf is my secondary atm (i want to consider him my main, but im just way better with peach). i love how they transisitoned him into PM as well, and i see so much potential in him. a lot of people are calling for buffs to him, but i honestly think im one of few who thinks he is top teir material as is, with no need for buffs. with an absolutely unparalleled combo game, unparalleled mobility in almost all aspects, and several very reliable finishers that he can easily combo into, hes definitely a top notch competitor.

 

[RedGamer]

thank you and yes, I agree with the majority of what you said. however, I am an aerial finisher kind of guy. do I need to change that for wolf, or am I just being picky with my character? it seems as if I have to combo on platforms in order to get a smash finisher; while that is not a problem, it's not as easy on final destination for obvious reasons.
the back air does not seem as if it could be used to create as good a wall as falco's or cover as many options as fox's so I don't use it very much. suggestions, anyone?

wolf's shine nair is all I live by in project m, but it still doesn't seem as safe as fox's shine dair, but maybe it's just me though.
shine dair/fair is the shiz when it comes to shield pressure though.
shine is a good option, but i don't use it as much because the fluidity of the game doesn't feel as lenient as in melee (but we will get there!)

your points are awesome, and it's always good to get a second point of veiw on things so thank you for the advice and I would like to hear what anyone else thinks.

 

[Scythe]

Wolf's tipper fair is a great aerial finisher, it just requires practice to get it down since it's a smallish window. I suggest going into standardtoaster's topic here and looking at the hitbox to get a better idea of where you can kill with it. Wolf also can kill with his flash, practice doing that, it kills pretty early.

As far as creating a wall goes wolf can't really do that with his moveset since he lacks a sex kicki, I mean you can auto cancel bair and fair but those hitboxes don't really last that long. My strategy is just offense offense offense. Wolf's jump is pretty excellent for manuvering on platforms which is my i'm not that big of a fan FD.

 

[G13_Flux]

as far as defense goes, i actually find blaster to be a good "preventative" tactic. since it adds a lot of depth to your mobility, you can really shut down opponents and keep yourself safe as well by WLing to a safer position. alternatively, you can combine this with wavebounces (b-reverses) and platform mobility to really create an intricate style of mobility. i love platforms as well with wolf, FD just limits wolfs overall potential mobility.

bair definitely has its uses, i find it to be one of wolfs greatest tools, but you absolutely do not use it as if you were fox or falco. like sycthe said, you can autocancel it and make a good multi hit wall for urself to stuff approaches, but the opponent can catch onto timing if you do it too often. if ind it useful OOS if the opponent spaces attacks that are too far for shine OOS to catch, as bair has a alot of range. its great for approaching since you can either space with it, or stay pretty safe with it on shield by using shine afterwards. its also a great edgeguarding move, and it can even be used in combos, such as after a dash attack, after which you can bair and FF then run after them for another dash attack or smth else. try not to compare wolfs attacks with fox and falco too much, because you wont use them correctly if you do that. try to take the atributes wolfs attacks have (like better range) and develop a style around that.

 

[RedGamer]

ok, gotcha.

as far as tech chases go, are they freaking amazing?!?

 

[Scythe]

wolf's got a sheiklike dash attack that can also hit people off platforms. His techchasing game is top notch

 

[RedGamer]

i didn't know that his dash attack could hit off platforms.
time to go nuts with wolf.
hide yo sheik, hide yo falcon, hide yo marth 'cause I'm rapin errbody out heeya

 

[Scythe]

obviously it's on lowish platforms like stadium and yoshi's not dreamland's. his uptilt can also hit people off platforms but that's a pretty tight hitbox.

 

[G13_Flux]

wolf has great coverage when it comes to platforms. dash attack and upsmash are great on those low YI, PS, and FoD platforms. when it comes to platforms like battlefield and dreamland, uair does the job pretty well at giving you complete coverage and setting up into more stuff. at the right percents, thats an easy tech coverage situation that can lead straight into side b for the kill. something else that could have pretty good potential is ledge cancelling a side b on a platform as a tech chase. if you can get the spacing right then it would work really well to prevent getting punished by the end lag, and it would pressure people to start making rolls towards the inside of the platform (or the side which u cant ledge cancel on), which gives you more of an advantage in predicting what they do and punishing likewise.

 

[Spiffykins]

Tech chasing with side b is great. It's a bit like Lucas' dacus, if they're not thinking about it and they think they're safe to get up/techroll/etc, they might give it to you for free and even if they are the threat of it is still going to pressure them.

 

[RedGamer]

thanks guys, this really helps a lot!

 

[tripwire]

The more I fight Wolf the more he annoys the hell outta me like Falco and Foxy. Give him some time and were going to be seeing sick ass Side-B's out of no where.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah i definitely agree wolf just needs more time for that stuff to become bread and butter within the metagame.