Wolf 's Potential and Possible changes

[BTmoney]

Anyone having any luck with serious/worthwhile waveshine combos?

As far as I can tell, his waveshine game is far inferior to fox and falco's.
Fox can drillshine some characters infinitely and has real, hard follow ups such as more shining, grab, uthrow/uair, upsmash. 2 of which have insane killing potential Fox can also kill with shine/bair

Falco has his ever potent shine/dair which can go on indefinitely as we all know and can lead to tech chases (punished with fsmash to kill) and etc. we all know about shine/dair. Falco can also kill with shine/bair

Wolf has poor horizontal vertical range for a shine that sends at such an angle.

How do you all feel about wolfs kill moves? (sweetpost fair, fsmash, dmash etc.)
Anyone care to point out what they consider a kill move for him?
I feel like fair sends at too strange of an angle and is actually weak for a kill move especially when compared to fox and falcos sex kick and bair (which I all tested in da lab).

Fox's bair and sex kick, which are not even his primary kill moves, kill at lower percents than Wolf's fair (and dair most likely).
Same for Falco.

Now I compare wolf's fair to 2 other moves that are used in a very similar way. Falcon's knee and sheiks fair. Now stay with me. Wolf uses's his fair in the same way that falcon and sheik use their's but his it harder to hit with, weaker, and has less favorable knockback and both have superior set ups. I am comparing these just to show how wolf stacks up and how his moves compare to other's. I think wolf is not up to par with other proven characters. I'm not saying wolf should get a falcon knee lol.

Sheik vs Wolf Fair

• Both Combo Finishers
• Kill Moves
• Sheiks's fair is easier to hit with
• Sheik's is much, much harder to sour spot than Wolf's (if that's even in melee/pm)
• Sheik's is more powerful as far as knock back goes (not sure about %)
• Sheik's sends at a favorable angle
• Side note, wolf is sold as a juggler, I feel sheik has a superior juggling game
• Sheik cannot follow up her fair like a sourspotted wolf fair

I think the benefits outweigh the cons for Sheik.

Falcon vs Wolf Fair

• Falcon's knee has great gimping potential and can clip opponent's with the weak hitbox to stop their recovery off/below stage
• Falcon's fair like wolf's is a combo finisher
• Falcon's knee is easier to hit with
• Both Kill moves
• Falcon's is notably easier to kill with
• Falcon's is great for techchasing because the hitboxes are active for so long
• Side note, wolf is sold as a juggler, while falcon has a far superior juggling game
• Falcon and Wolf can both follow up a sourspotted fair
• Falcon cannot follow up a "Sweetpotted" knee easily

Falcon's knee is clearly superior to wolf's fair lol. I'd even call it inferior to Mario's fair.

I also think the options out of shine are subpar (exponentially when compared to fox/falco) and he lack's the kill setups and dangerous moves that fox (uthrow/uair, upsmash, shine spike) and falco (dair etc.) have. I even feel is bair is inferior to fox's and falco's even though that could be incorrect.
Also as a direct comparison, wolf cannot follow up out of shine as consistently as fox or falco from an objective standpoint. Not from the quality of the follow up moves.

I like playing him since he is one of my favorite characters but I currently find no reason to play him. Just my thought, I think he'll wind up as a like a 55-60% percentile middle but closer to high tier character when a tier list gets put together.

I seriously can't find a reason to use him over another spacey or other established character other than fun. I have not played enough of wolf to flawlessly assess his metagame and all options but I've been doing a lot of viewing on youtube as well and I can't say wolf is anything special at this point in the metagame and in PM.
Also there are just little things like the fact that his dair is a meteor smash and not as spike. It doesn't even work well with Wolf's low short hop height combined with how long it takes to come out. It's not like it's spammable like shffld falco dairs or wolf is already too good.

Now I am saying most of this because I interpreted the changes made to wolf were to make him a serious competitor and to give him good, if not great, options. If that was not the intention then we are having a separate talk.




I would personally like to see a slightly improved wolf or gameplay to change my mind. Keep in mind I'm not saying wolf is bad.

He's basically what mario is to Doc in melee.

Closing Points

• Wolf is an inferior clone to Fox and Falco
• I personally find inferior clones pointless, especially in a game the developers have the power to change "actively"
• (Ex. if they were to add Doc to PM and make him better than mario, why use mario?)
• (Ex. if they added a clone to the top-teir sheik that was inferior, why use her?)
• Wolf's dair could stand to come out a tad better out of his SH
• Wolf's fair which is a major kill move/contender is weak compared to similar attacks
• Wolf's fair is comparatively weak for a kill move as a whole
• Shine combo's are a tad lacking
• Wolf falls a bit too fast and can't jump high enough to have a serious juggling game. Especially at decent %s
• Fair has some weird angling
• Shine could stand to send opponent's less far away or more vertically and less horizontally.
• Fox/Falco, have multiple, more and better kill moves

When you have fox and falco (among other top tier characters) why use a Wolf?
I understand he's different, I play a lot of wolf but he's lacks great options imo.
Feel free to contest anything. But please read the entire post and do not try to discredit the entire critique by pointing out a flaw. I am sure this isn't perfect.

I used a bit of color coding just so you don't get lost in a sea of words.


I love PM btw though. That is why I'm criticizing it.


EDIT:
Unrelated question, did PM fix wolf's issue with recovering from meteor smashes that he had in brawl?

Wolf additionally possesses a recovery that is heavily susceptible to gimps, being a fast faller with a vertical recovery move (Fire Wolf) that has severe angling issues, and a particular vulnerability to meteor smashes, as Wolf suffers an inexplicable 60 frame delay when meteor cancelling (even low knockback meteor smashes can send Wolf down too far to recover).

 

[Scythe]

I consider Wolf's fair to be like mewtwo fair from melee, main difference being that Wolf can combo into his fair for the kill with many different moves. But yes the sweetspot on it is quite strict.

 

[G13_Flux]

with all due respect, i dont think that you understand wolf as a character in general if u think that he is a clone of fox and falco. if u knew anything about wolf combos, you would know that wolf in fact has a much higher damage output than either of the other two. his combos last longer, and are more intricate. i would argue that he is a more effective juggler than falcon, as falcon has one juggle move (uair), and wolf has bassically the same uair (dont be fooled by the different animation) in addition to fair, and a slew of aerial launchers that falcon lacks outside of his grabs. his fair sweetspot is fairly easy to combo into, and when used the proper way (in an aerial combo) you will be killing heavies and fastfallers at around 130%, which is pretty good considering its not even his main killer. I also think that you shouldnt really be comparing his fair to falcon and shieks fair. you should be comparing wolfs side b to falcons knee, and i guess his bair would be the best comparison to sheiks fair, but you really dont need to compare those two to discuss the potential on the moves. considering how far wolf can jump offstage, and the practically non existent end lag on ALL of his aerials other than nair (this is a subtle but huge difference from other spacies), wolfs edge guarding game is amaing IMO. its not the best, but its up there at the top with sheik, DDD, Peach, falcon, jiggs, and pit when considering offstage tactics. a spike on his dair would be useful, but i tihnk its largely unneccesary. Its also used very effectively for side b set ups, and other aerial set ups in general. While on the topic of edge guarding, wolf can use his bair in this category for enourmous reach and gimp potential, in addition to his uair (slightly less effective, but good as a mix up) and his shine as well (its use is much less effective, but ive still found uses for it occasionaly to set up a dair or bair on the jump cancel). Overall, wolfs edge guarding can lend him kills much earlier than fox or falco can pull off through kill combos, because of his ability to go far offstage and perform multiple aerials if timed correctly (while fox and falcos shine and dair respectively are good, they are limited in the range which they can be peformed offstage, giving wolf a more versatile gimp game).

On the topic of killing, wolf does have a couple good bread and butter kills. his side b kills a tad earlier than falcons knee in my experience (i will double check this though later, they might be the same) and when considering side b shortens, plus the ways wolf can set up into it (dtilt, shine, dair, uair, all of his throws except fthrow), u can set up into it at kill percent on pretty much any character in the game (if you dont believe me, experiment with the various set ups at different percents on fast fallers and floaties alike). wolf can also set up for up smashes/DACUSes out of throws for kills (his up smash is actually his most powerful smash, killing mario at 92% uncharged on FD), and it has a ridiculous area coverage.

Now after this, i havent even begun to go onto the topic of his blaster for its superior uses in stage and space control, and his great ground game (with ranged attacks, many of which are very safe on sheild, and a fast run speed) which leads into far superb tech chases than fox or falco can pull off (bringing into view another good kill move, his up b, which has many practical uses in tech chasing, and is non techable).

Fox and falco have things that they are better at than wolf, like their sheild pressure, defensive games, and at least in foxes case, his bread and butter kills. but wolf has some serious differences, and thos differences lead to a different style of play. i think you experiment with wolf a little bit more before saying hes completely inferior to falcon, sheik, and the spacees alike by just comparing a couple moves, that werent really even compared properly.

One more note, dont take any of this stuff offensively, I am just a big advocate for wolf, and am a firm believer that a lot of the lack of faith in wolf is due to his lack of usage and an underdevelopped metagame.

 

[rbd]

G13_Flux, I agree with you when you say Wolf plays a differently than Fox and Falco, but on the whole disagree with a lot of what you said

First off, I can't believe Wolf has a better juggling game than Falcon. You said Falcon's only juggling move is his uair. Every single one of his aerials can play a significant part in carrying an opponent across the stage. Dair sets up for followups much better than Wolf's in my experience. As far as bairs go I'd say both characters' are equally as useful. But when it comes to Falcon's nairing and uairing across the stage to finish with a knee, Wolf cannot compete with how well they flow together, mainly because of Falcon's superior lateral mobility.

Now for Fox and Falco. You did say Wolf's edgeguarding leads to kills at less damage than Fox and Falco's kill combos. Any successful gimp can kill at lower damage than any pretty much any combo, but unfortunately Fox and Falco both gimp better than Wolf IMO. Wolf has nothing on Fox's shine, and Falco's dair is quicker and more disjointed than Wolf's. You also say Wolf can get more attacks out off the edge, but fox and falco can both get out numerous aerials just as easily as Wolf. It's really not hard for Fox to drop off the ledge->bair->dj->bair and return to stage.

Although I can agree Wolf's combos take longer to pull off, that makes them significantly more susceptible to DI, which is IMO, the bane of Wolf. Any smart opponent will mix up their DI, which gives Wolf some trouble. It means that no side b can ever be guaranteed, which is a problem as it is one of his main finishers. DI-ing his usmash and fair is pretty easy, so getting kills with those is pretty unreliable until very high percentages. His dair can be good for surprise, but can be cancelled like all other meteor smashes. He's pretty much left to just nudging the opponent off the edge and being forced to follow up with an edgeguard for every kill (other than smashes and bair at fairly high damage).

That all said, I do love Wolf. He's a lot of fun, but I do have to agree that Wolf is probably going to place around the middle. He's a fairly good character; it's just that there are now so many more that do what he does, but better

 

[BTmoney]

with all due respect, i dont think that you understand wolf as a character in general if u think that he is a clone of fox and falco.

Just for perspective (and in an incomplete PM character roster) Ganon is a clone of Falcon but they don't play similarly.
I just find it especially disappointing that fox and falco have a sex kick that is superior to wolf's fair. And it's not even like their sex kick is their best aerial.

One more note, dont take any of this stuff offensively, I am just a big advocate for wolf, and am a firm believer that a lot of the lack of faith in wolf is due to his lack of usage and an underdevelopped metagame.

No offense taken at all. I did address that I could feel this way due to the lack of wolf metagaming.

After lab-ing some more I find that wolf's shine/uair is surprisingly consistent

Now I am no hardcore wolf main and I don't expect dramatic changes to be made to wolf but some points still stand. This is a fairly harsh critique but I just want to bring attention to some things.

• 1 thing is that wolf's dair could stand to come out just a tad better on his short hop. The hitbox really seems to be on the ground
• Another, is that fair really could have better angling when sweetspotted. Unless you're at the top of the screen (which wolf cannot consistently fight at due to his fast falling and low jump height) fair sends the opponent at a favorable angle from a DI standpoint. It could stand to be either more vertical (which would be pretty cool and unique for a move like that) or more horizontal. You could leave the sourspot as is
• Wolf still has very poor horizontal aerial range

Wolf doesn't really have bad attacks or unusuable moves like some characters but I feel like they could stand to just be a tad better. And I mean a tad. Like how about a 75 degree angle (or a more steep angle) for wolf's shine? That'd help because he does not have great aerial reach and opponents can definitely start to get away from him.

Or you could decrease the knockback of the shine a bit but keep the hitstun the same

Wolf's side special can kill faster than falcon's knee as far as I can tell. But at the same time, side special has 20x the self destruct risk, is more situational, and is way way harder to land than a falcon knee. That's why I find no reason to compare them.

Could you expand on the shortened side special? That move is definitely under developed. Does it work well as a follow up? Do you have the timing as to where you can use it as pleased? I personally do not lol.

wolfs edge guarding game is amaing IMO. its not the best, but its up there at the top with sheik, DDD, Peach, falcon, jiggs, and pit when considering offstage tactics.

I certainly wouldn't compare his edge guard game to sheik, peach, pit, or jiggs. It's better than falco's when you go off stage. But by the ledge falco's is superior. And fox's is better as a whole due to his shine spike which has been used so effectively.

However wolf can gimp opponent's with an offstage shine, this isn't has lethal or consistent as fox's shine but it has more horizontal range and can hit opponent's out of their recovery range if you get them after a jump.

wolf can also set up for up smashes/DACUSes out of throws for kills

Can you dacus in PM? I have no idea lol, you can jump cancel upsmash like always but can you dacus?

 

[Ace55]

Or you could decrease the knockback of the shine a bit but keep the hitstun the same

You can't, the two are linked.

And yeah you can dacus in PM.

 

[BTmoney]

You can't, the two are linked.

Ah.

You could however do it in a way similar to how zero suit samus' dmash or neutral b works.

Zero Suit dmash has stun, then knock back

Wolf's shine should have no where near the stun that ZSS dmash has but should have just enough so you can jump cancel and get to a predetermined spot in the air to make his combing more consistent and flexible.

Follow me?

 

[Scythe]

I felt that in 2.1 Wolf's shine was way to easy to DI and long combos with shine only occurred due to bad DI but with the changes in 2.5 it's waay easier to combo with it and don't see a problem with it at all.

 

[G13_Flux]

since my major rant is over, ill start by clarifying a couple things:

I stand corrected about falcons juggling game, my statement about his uair being his only juggling move was sort of made in haste of the greater argument, and i was really just thinking about his vertical launching moves, and not his overall combo type.

about the comment i made in regards to wolfs edgeguarding in relation to peach, jiggs, pit and the rest of those i mentioned, i wasnt trying to say wolf is as good or better than them. to be more precise, i should have stated that that he falls somewhere right behind those characters, but ahead of the rest of the cast, give or take a few characters i may have not mentioned.

Now with that said, ill elaborate a tad more on those points:

In comparison to falcon, ill admit that falcons combos and chases just look and feel better due to their quickness and style, and his slightly greater mobility. his knee IS a bit more reliable than wolfs side b, due to technical difficulty and DI prediction on wolfs part. i wont argue that. however, when comparing the two characters overall, id like to look at the things wolf has that falcon does not: that being, falcon lacks a projectile or way to deal with one, while wolf has both; the other is that wolf has safe on shield pressure options which lead directly to combos and really bolster his offense, while falcon does not. These two points really set up wolfs offense much differently than falcons. he has better stage control, and a way to shut down approaches as well as approach. the wavebounce on his blaster is remarkably under used yet highly effective in position control and baiting and punishing. This one move alone adds a depth of game to wolfs MUs accross the board that falcon cannot match. no matter what, a good projectile in the hands of a smart player can shut down any level of speed that CF players could manage, and it gives wolf an attribute that without a doubt makes up for his slight inferiority in speed and bread and butter kills. that said, i will not retract my notion that wolfs juggling game is on par with falcons. wolf has too many launchers, to many combo continuers, and too good of a ground and air mobility to not be on par with falcon. his side b, while difficult to pull off, is still complimented by the many ways wolf can set up into it (like i said, at virtually any percent aside from ridiculously high ones). at the top of the metagame, wolfs side b (which can also be angled now for further accuracy) is a deadly tool that has all the same benefits and rewards as the knee, just with a higher skill requirement. i think overall, falcon has a superior ability to use speed to lock down an opponent in tech chases, and finish with reliable (reliable in terms of skill dependability, meaning theyre easy combos) killing blows. however, wolf has options that falcon doesnt have when it comes to his projectile, and major on sheild pressure. in addition, wolf STILL has great tech chases, and abilities to lock down an opponent with speed and mobility, not too different than falcon himself. this makes wolf much more versatile when it comes to MUs accross the board IMO, whereas falcon may excell heavily in a few MUs, but be hard countered by others.

On the topic of fox and falcos edguarding, while it is no doubt that shine spike and falcos dair are better moves than similar tools that wolf has, they are indeed limited in their reach offstage. maybe fox can ledg drop > bair > DJ > bair and still recover (i always thought the endlag was too much, but maybe im wrong), but even still its reach is limited horizontally offstage. Dont even get me started on falco, who is limited to run off ledge > DJ > dair back on stage. or he can self destruct with a suicidal dair on both opponent on him (which has very situational usage however). Wolfs edge gaurding is similar to the leaping jumps that falcon makes offstage. he can make it much farther offstage than fox or falco, and his aerials have much less endlag (in fact, extremely little lag at all). his high fall speed and ranged bair allow him to easily position himself to hit the opponent, and when hes that far offstage, a spike on dair is very redundant, as it is going to kill them anyways (they will most likely only survive from a dair if wolf uses it from onstage). situationally dependent, wolf can also use a second aerial (fairly far offstage, remember) and still make it back (falcon can usually not manage this unless he is above stage level). the extreme versatilty and icreased effectiveness of his bair, dair, and uair, and his overall mobility in this situation is why i claim that his gimping is so efficient and almost up to par with the top edge guarders. most characters cannot make it as far offstage as he does, and with speed to boot. the good range on all of the aerials i mentioned is HIGHLY effective in these situations, as they are easy to hit with, hard to avoid, and a single hit at very low percents is easily death. this is something i do consistently with wolf. ive made very good use of his edge guards, and i know that most characters cannot do this with the same speed that wolf does it at, and the same range offstage with which he does it. i can guarentee you that fox and falco cannot make these chases. they ALWAYS stay close by to the stage, because they simply cannot recover otherwise.

Also, i do not have the side b shortens down perfectly, although i can get them a fair percentage of the time. there are 3 lengths in total (ive heard people say 4, but ive only knoticed 3), so if a player was to perfect these, you can easily land a hit with it at any distance between its min and max distance, giving you a wide range of set ups and percents to work with, giving it a lot of utility (in the hands of skilled players). if the opponent DIs, to avoid it (meaning towards you), then u simply continue the combo, and set up for something else. if they DI away, well, then they are most likely toast. Wolf has a lot of different options for different DIs in his combos, something else that falcon doesnt quite live up to.

 

[rbd]

I do agree that Wolf can handle a wider range of matchups than Falcon because of his blaster options by playing a really good spacing game.

In regards to edgeguarding, it doesn't always have to be done far off stage. I think Fox and Falco have more efficient options closer to stage, and also have some terrific options while still on stage (aka Falco's dair). Also, I could easily be wrong about Fox's 2 back airs from a ledgedrop Maybe I'm thinking from a standing jump near the ledge, which he can definitely do

I've been able to do the 3 cancelled side b lengths, but I've only used them for recovery and never really thought about using them much in combos. I'll definitely give that a shot!

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Also, i do not have the side b shortens down perfectly, although i can get them a fair percentage of the time. there are 3 lengths in total (ive heard people say 4, but ive only knoticed 3), so if a player was to perfect these, you can easily land a hit with it at any distance between its min and max distance, giving you a wide range of set ups and percents to work with, giving it a lot of utility (in the hands of skilled players). if the opponent DIs, to avoid it (meaning towards you), then u simply continue the combo, and set up for something else. if they DI away, well, then they are most likely toast. Wolf has a lot of different options for different DIs in his combos, something else that falcon doesnt quite live up to.

i'd like to add on to this by saying that i was also very very very unsure of how the hell was side-b supposed to be used in a normal way, like 10 minutes ago i stopped playing PM, i found out that wolf does have 4 different lengths, the shortest one being basically on the ground, it almost looks like if it was a tackle, but when i found this out i was convinced that his side-b is actually good, and not just for certain percents or DI's, anybody who is reading this i suggest you try the shortest one, it's a tad slow but it serves it's purpose and there's no way you could not hit them if they are close to you.

Another thing that i'd like to empahsize is stage control, wolf has amazing stage control, especially in stages like smashville, although i haven't even begun to learn all of the brawl tecs. that were carried over to PM, and even then wolf has so many attacks with great/amazing range, speed, and power or combo potental, f-smash is a very good example of this, but then there's also d-smash, up-smash is like ike's up-smash in range but faster, when you combine this with a slow-moving projectile where you could make a small wall a any given time, bair,uair, side-b, and if you feel like screwing with your oppnent up-b is also a choice.

I love wolf, so so so many options at any given time

 

[G13_Flux]

like i said i DO agree that shine and dair from fox and falco are more potent. i didnt disagree with that. i just think sometimes, if u can make that extra leap offstage, it can lend u a greater reward with more risk of course. thats really what i meant about wolf having the potential to kill at very low percents, just because it secures the kill faster the farther offstage u can take on ur opponent. wolf still has some solid options ontage as well though, like dsmash.

yeah the side b cancels are definitely useful finishers. u dont see it a lot now, but i think its definitely going to become integral to wolfs game as the metagame develops. and like i said, u can angle it now as well a little bit up or down, making all the more useful.

anyways, ive definitely been very pro wolf for top tier throughout this thread. i definitely believe he is top teir material, and i think if u want to see it, u really have to take a detailed look at all of his options. but i will say a couple things that ive noticed about what i think his weaknesses are:

His defensive game is definitely worse than fox or falcos. While i believe that wolfs makes up for not having a sex kick with great, ranged offensive options, it definitely takes away from defense, as u dont have the great big bulky wall like hit boxes OOS that fox and falco can perform with nair and bair. he does have his shine OOS, but that is about it, and while great up close, serves no purpose against a character who spaces on sheild. wolf also doesnt have the grab range or WD length that fox and falco have. when it comes to defensive play, wolf is reliant on blaster, which in certain MUs like pit jiggs and wario, the shots can easily be avoided.

Overall i think wolf trades some defensive play for offensive variety when compared to fox and falco. i think wolf might have a higher skill necessity as well, due to the difficulty in controlling his wavebounces, side b cancels, and precision when it comes to landing aerial finishers.

Edit: at sixth sense: thats something ive been trying to emphasize for awhile lol. wolfs stage control definitely is good, and as for brawl techs, i would definitely recomend learning the wavebounce on it. considering theres two versions of the wavebounce (run and jump forward > wavebounce bawards & jump backwards > wavebounce forward, but blaster backwards) coupled with the fact that u can WL in either direction out of them, it has a lot of practical uses in controlling your position as well as baiting out attacks and punishing. i like the way u think.

 

[WhyNotTurtles?]

Wolf's [insert word] Potential

At risk of sounding grandiose, Wolf is the most powerful character in the game, theoretically. If one could exactly cancel his illusion at the right time, every time, one could undoubtedly destroy any approach against Wolf. Thinking back to the early days of Melee as a newbie, you probably knew of that one player that would spam Fox Illusion back and forth. Well now imagine that with the power and knockback of Falcon's knee and you get Armageddon.

Unfortunately (and fortunately) no one is able to pull off that kind of precision. I urge someone to create a TAS video of P:M Wolf to show the rest of the Smash community the enormous potential of Wolf.

 

[SpiderMad]

The person who I've seen use Side-b the most would be Magus, but I don't know if the old build he was playing how much Side-b was different or whatever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7nDTbCbWOA

Sorry but at 2:44 that is the funniest laugh I've ever heard

 

[Sixth-Sense]

At risk of sounding grandiose, Wolf is the most powerful character in the game, theoretically. If one could exactly cancel his illusion at the right time, every time, one could undoubtedly destroy any approach against Wolf. Thinking back to the early days of Melee as a newbie, you probably knew of that one player that would spam Fox Illusion back and forth. Well now imagine that with the power and knockback of Falcon's knee and you get Armageddon.

Unfortunately (and fortunately) no one is able to pull off that kind of precision. I urge someone to create a TAS video of P:M Wolf to show the rest of the Smash community the enormous potential of Wolf.

Go look up some TAS's by the spikebrothers on youtube, they have a wolf one which is pretty awesome, on the topic of having that precision, it wouldn't be surprising at all if someone did have that precision and quick reaction (and if using the longest side-b, balls) it's not that hard to combo into, like i said i was very very skeptical about the move as a finisher, but now that i know about the different lengths, it could be incorporated into his metagame eary on. I don't think it could destroy any approach, but who your playing would be pretty nervous considering you have mastered or at least have a general grasp of the move, and it's very fast on startup too, i think it's faster than illusion? I'll have to try it out today.

I think wolf is top-tier material, and all though his juggling potential is on par with falcon (i'd argue he could even be better because of so many launchers and attacks that send's them at an angle for another hit, and shine of course) falcon can't hold a candle to him in general pressure and offense, falcon relies on the players ability to take advantage of an opening or mistake in regards to spacing, and this will usually follow up with a grab or nair, and knee too of course, but wolf actually has a reliable way to get in your face like fox and falco does, not to thier extent but he still has it, he has that amazing spacie offense and shield pressure.

another thing i'd like to point out as a plus in general is his recovery options, wolf, like fox/falco, has two different ways to recover, one being side-b, although it's easy to intercept, it's still potent as a way to get back. This of course depends on how wary your oppenent is about the move or your character in general, but it's still much much better than illusion, which i will remind everyone that in melee, it's the attack with lowest priority in the game, seeing as how they are unchanged in PM, i'm willing to bet they continue to have the recovery with lowest priority, then there's up-b which has several different angles, and it's length is impressive. This might still seem weak considering how many brawl characters and some of the veterans have great and varied recoveries, but this is actually really good (in my eyes) seeing as how he is a offense oriented character and how much ground he can take when getting back to the stage. This goes with him living longer than fox/falco, althougth it seems to me like being a traditional fast faller, he could still die when anyone grabs or touches him at all, but not like fox/falco

to G13- thanks, i don't mean to take your ideas or anything, i just want to reinforce them, i'll have to really look into that wavebouce and b-reversal, they seem increidibly usefull from what your saying, and from i've read as well. Wolf for a place under lucario!

 

[G13_Flux]

no haha i enjoy when people actually get what im saying and believe it too! my overall aim of posting detailed breakdowns of characters is just to get people thinking systematically and analytically. this is one of the reasons i love smash so much is because of the level of depth, skill, and character MU dependency that goes into it. its not just ur typical back and forth, drain ur HP kind of fighting game, it requires to inference about how characters attack each other, how they can defend, how they kill, and how individual MUs affect these factors. from day 1 ive been incredibly interested in wolf just for his uniqueness as a character and his blend of extrememly effective playstyles. i would love to post some videos detailing the wavebounces ive been talking about, and a couple other things in regards to tech chasing for kills, but the wifi safe code set felt really awk to me in 2.1. maybe its different in 2.5, ill have to test it out. but i also ecourage everyone here to post in the MU thread i created. everyone seems to have some really good points and no body is trolling, so id love to hear what u guys have to say.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Go ahead, i'll see if i can post a video too showing all of the lengths of side-b, and yeah i totally agree on you about smash, it's the first fighting game that actually made me want to play it, especially considering how melee (PM too of course) has always been like speed-chess to me, and i love the depth and the nearly inhuman skill cieling for every character and the physics too, i never liked any other FG because of those dial-a-combo mechanics and how limited you are in movement.

 

[BTmoney]

I like what I created.

I would say you are theorymon-ing too much

(for lack of a better word, theorymon is a competitive pokemon phrase, it usually comes up when someone thinks they have a perfect or well balanced team and a critic would apply extremely specific or hypothetical situations to point out flaws, I feel you are doing the opposite)

You would say you are not doing that lol

So we fundamentally disagree G13_Flux so I find no point in disagreeing and im not offended lol.
The only thing that would settle this would be a comprehensive tier list (which will eventually come around)

My opinion still is wolf, at this stage of known and applicable techs, is still going to be a 60ish percentile character. He is not bad I see no reason to use him over other good characters.

At risk of sounding grandiose, Wolf is the most powerful character in the game, theoretically. If one could exactly cancel his illusion at the right time, every time, one could undoubtedly destroy any approach against Wolf. Thinking back to the early days of Melee as a newbie, you probably knew of that one player that would spam Fox Illusion back and forth. Well now imagine that with the power and knockback of Falcon's knee and you get Armageddon.

I do however disagree with that entirely lol. For one, no matter what length you choose, the illusion for Wolf comes out at the exact same time and out of the same animation. Meaning, as soon as he started his stance the opponent would just shield or jump. That's why spamming fox/falco illusion doesn't work past bad players. You basically said that yourself.

 

[G13_Flux]

I am doing theory work, i wont disagree with you on that, but a lot of it comes from good inferencing based on what ive actually done and seen. for instance, i can pull off a lengthy wolf combo, and rack up a good 65% damage with something like shine > dair > shine > uair > grab > dthrow > DACUS > uair > side b hopefully for the kill. This is something where i KNOW that wolf can pull of these great combos, as i have done them before with a proper level of concentration and focus. if my opponent DId differently, i maybe would have used nothing but uair strings into the side b for the kill. i use theory, however, to look at the possibilities with the side b cancels that i havent perfected yet, and i can see from within my combos that there are places i can incorparate that into. i think smash needs a good mix between theory and practice, just like any disciplinary field. what im doing is certainly not all theory though. Im far from professional, but i can take the little bits of things that i do well here and there and look at what i could do if i did things properly ALL the time.

regardless of wolfs standing, i still think hes a really intersting character, and hes ma bro.

 

[BTmoney]

regardless of wolfs standing, i still think hes a really intersting character, and hes ma bro.

gheriugwuiefwekjfw.

that's why I made this thread lol. I think it would be awesome if wolf was in the same class as fox and falco. If the tier list went Fox, Falco, Wolf that'd be cool.

Now that may not even be good for the metagmame but I think I'd like that as well as others

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Well some things that are bugging me about wolf.

1-Fair. Is. Useless. Really, it's crap for killing (basically everything tactcian said in the OP) i thought it wasn't that bad, but using him more and more i'm noticing how inefficient it is in killing, and it's an awkward move to combo off of, i guess him being a spacie, he follows the melee tradition of having semi-crap fairs

2-Shine is laughable thanks to CC, it's annoying and frustrating since it's so easy to CC, plus it's range crippled with no sex kick is a little unfair, seeing as how he is a in-yo-face kind of character, but this is thanks to nair as well.

3-Nair, oh sweet nair, it's way to easy to sdi out of the attack, which means if you were to nair->shine to try to start something, it won't work if your oppenent sdi's out of it(please note, i've done it numerous times already on different persons who use different characters, and unless they are using a bulky char. then the shine never connects) and it's sad seeing as how any other attack (well maybe bair, i'll have to try it out) won't give you enough time to properly shine without getting shield-grabbed.

It's this for now, but maybe with more testing i could do something about this, or find a way around it, any thoughts on this?

 

[G13_Flux]

i definitely agree with the CC shine part. Like, why in hell do fox and falco get to have like the only F****** non crouch cancable attack in the game? Sakurai was really riding on them space animals d***s for that one. but wit proper incorparation of multi shines and shine grab then u can counter that with good level of prediction.

on regards to fair, it IS good for killing floaty characters, as it can kill them fairly early, especially when they are in the air. in terms of killing in general though, it definitely isnt his most useful move. I find many more uses for it in terms of simple comboing. If u are accurate enough, u can use a fair to cross up your opponent (really awkward to do, but if u can master it then it definitely has uses), and that helps in regards to killing combos. i stated earlier somehwere that souspot fair > upsmash is a pretty much guarenteed kill combo on fastfallers. it can also set u up for grabs and utilts, which has uses in different situations within your combo game.

I also havent noticed the ability to SDI out of nair consistently. i can usually notice it if i do the aerial higher than anything above a short hop, but if u keep it low to he ground, its a quick and safe approach, and i havent noticed any ability to punish that yet. Also in my experience, bair can be used safely on shield in conjunction with shine. this could be due to human reaction issues too though, and id realllly like some frame data to see if its true, but i dont know how to use brawl box well and nobody else seems to post in wolfs thread too much.

I am personally OK with wolf not having a sex kick, i find that all of his aerials serve a purpose. Something that I am a little more annoyed with than the abscence of sex kick is the sometimes awkward starup lag on bair. Bair can be autocancelled in a short hop, but its hella difficult to do, and i miss doing my double bair walls so easily.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Well some things that are bugging me about wolf.

1-Fair. Is. Useless. Really, it's crap for killing (basically everything tactcian said in the OP) i thought it wasn't that bad, but using him more and more i'm noticing how inefficient it is in killing, and it's an awkward move to combo off of, i guess him being a spacie, he follows the melee tradition of having semi-crap fairs

2-Shine is laughable thanks to CC, it's annoying and frustrating since it's so easy to CC, plus it's range crippled with no sex kick is a little unfair, seeing as how he is a in-yo-face kind of character, but this is thanks to nair as well.

3-Nair, oh sweet nair, it's way to easy to sdi out of the attack, which means if you were to nair->shine to try to start something, it won't work if your oppenent sdi's out of it(please note, i've done it numerous times already on different persons who use different characters, and unless they are using a bulky char. then the shine never connects) and it's sad seeing as how any other attack (well maybe bair, i'll have to try it out) won't give you enough time to properly shine without getting shield-grabbed.

It's this for now, but maybe with more testing i could do something about this, or find a way around it, any thoughts on this?

Yeah those moves need adjusting, but there are ways to get around these flaws and work them to your advantage.

1. Fair is tricky to space / sweetspot and a sour spot hitbox won't kill. Work the sour spot in such a way where you can juggle with it and lead up to something better. You can SHFFL the sour spot Fair and follow up with a shine, Usmash, or Utilt. Overall, Fair is great for killing (sweet spot) and juggling (sour spot).

2. I do feel that shine should be put up at the same level as Fox and Falco's in terms of shine's ability to negate a CC. I've only got one solution for countering dem CC n00bs, and that is multi shining (double shine works fine) > hop / full hop > any aerial. IMO, that's your best option.

3. Nair is pretty sucky I will agree 100%. I don't have any uses for it.

Hopefully it gets tweeked in a way where it is a little more reliable. Check out Wolf's Falcon-like Nair on this fanmod of Brawl called LTB+ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=f4ZmNpq3uUY#t=1s

You might have to re-watch that clip a few times

 

[G13_Flux]

i definitely wouldnt say that nair is useless, its pretty integral to his shield pressure game, it just doesnt have much use other than that. its bassically foxs dair.

 

[Magus420]

N-air is more like Jigglypuff's d-air as it has growth. It also has a landing hit, is less SDIable (both in SDI distance and the window), and has less lag than either of theirs. It has enough advantage to combo into shine at around 0-5 or so, and gets enough stun to combo directly into grab as early as around 45 and d-smash at 75. It can't be CCed, and if you keep the number of hits of it you're landing low and also move towards them while doing it (like using it while moving down in a SH, or FFing through them in the air to pull them down) they aren't really going to be able to get enough out of the way unless they SDI multiple times, and with each hit only having a 1 frame window to SDI that is very unlikely.

As for shine being CCable, Falco's shine breaks a CC at 0 because it has just barely enough BKB (a LOT) to knock them down at 0 when crouched, sending floaties super high at low damage as a result, which works out for him because he has huge jumps that go almost twice as high. Fox's is because the trajectory is along the floor or lower (like Wolf's n-air and d-air). Just don't run up and nakedly shine people at neutral on the ground or whatever you're doing where they are able to actually be in a crouch (true CC) until 55-60 or so (or double shine if they don't have a good and fast CC counter attack). The KB is strong enough at least that if you hit them with it any time they are stunned or doing something else it will knock down at 0 if they attempt to DI it down (crouchless 'CC'). You can always safely shine them after a n/d-air or backed up with a laser to knock them out of crouch (lasers are CCable by themselves, but there's about 8 frames of hitlag and landing lag while doing so where they can't re-crouch). N-air (0+), b-air (spaced), d-air (0+), bayonet/laser WL, grab, f-smash (0+), and f-tilt (20+) work particularly well against CCing.

 

[tripwire]

Wolf also has a pseudo-pillar akin to Falco.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Wolf also has a pseudo-pillar akin to Falco.

This is true, i've done it many times with just shine->dair, and it looks pretty cool too

On the topic of fair, i actually have found some use for it these days, it's not useless that's for sure, but i mostly used when my friend thought that i would be continually nairing or just using uair, so i beat him out a couple of times in range wars, and i've found that it's pretty good to shield pressure just close enough that it connects with the shield but not close enough to get grabbed, while continually shine since he's akin to OOS wavedash and then grab, it worked out pretty well. It's also good as a hit-and-run attack, but i haven't been able to kill with the sweetspot, it's pretty tricky.

I'm starting to think that nair is good for just low percents, like let's say you shine->nair continually 'till like 25%? from there on i try my best to use anthing else. It just doesn't have the same affect i guess.

Something else i've found incredibly usefull is a stationary shine->bair, i'm not sure if wolfs bair has more range than fox/falco's bair, or if it has less landing lag or something, but i was able to properly shield pressure with that attack (really satisfiying).

either way wolf continues to be my favorite brawl newcomer, too fun

 

[G13_Flux]

oh i didnt realize that wolfs fsmash cant be crouch cancelled. thats particularly good to know. what is the minimum frame window that you can pull off a multi shine magus? i know that a few frames must go by before being JCable, and then you must factor in the frames of jump squat. how would a multi shine fare against, say, peaches 5 frame dsmash?

also what factors into the window of hitlag and landing lag that the blaster shots have? do all CCs carry this property that you cannot re crouch after a certain amount of time?

forgive me if the questions annoy you, im sure as a PMBR member you must get a lot of questions about random stuff within the game. i just like to take every opportunity to learn what i can. XD

tripwire, what psuedo pillar do u speak of? is it just a simple shine > nair > shine > nair etc. i cant see shine > dair > shine > dair being quick enough to be a pillar.

also im pretty sure bair has a tad more range than fox and falcos. im usually able to sheild pressure with it too, but that could be due to human reaction considerations, seeing how even if it was disadvantageous, they have a small frame window to spot dodge. i loves wolfs bair, one of my favorite moves of his. out of a shine you can follow up his bair with dash attack or DACUS if they DI low, or a uair or side b if they DI high. its also great for spacing approaches, and you can use the double bair wall by utilizing auto cancels like i mentioned. ones of its best uses tho is for edge guarding.. its a beast edge guarder.

 

[Scythe]

fair is a great kill move, just get better with hitting with the sweetspot.

 

[tripwire]

@G13flux: Im pretty sure its Nair-shine-Dair-shine-Dair. Ill have to check because its my friend who does it not me. But he definitly can pillar.

 

[G13_Flux]

ok ill test it out too. i know for a fact that you can manage a shine after dair on shield a good portion of the time cuz of the limited window you have to get out of it. Pretty sure it totally beats shield grab too, they need a quicker OOS option.

Shine dair shine dair is great (for a normal combo not on shield) for an automatic like 40%, and if they di it away to avoid, then either anticipate and waveshine to an upsmash up tilt or uair, or just hit em with the side b to make it 55% and set up the edge guard XD gotta love knockback stacking.

 

[tripwire]

Wolf is easily becoming one of my worst matchups.

 

[G13_Flux]

haha. ive actually never played another wolf (at least a good one). im the only one i know who dedicates time to the character. i feel that if i ever fought another wolf player, i would probably get beat hard due to the complete lack of experience i have playing against him.

 

[Scythe]

I got int a lot of friendlies against stricnyne at Apex. It's an odd matchup, fun though.

 

[G13_Flux]

man i wish i had the time to go to apex. u must have had a blast there. how about armada? seeing as how peach is my second main im incredibly excited that the blonde b****es took over the tournament!

who did u use against his wolf, scythe? or are u saying that u used wolf agaisnt him?

 

[Scythe]

wolf dittos obvously

armada did not play PM at Apex.

 

[G13_Flux]

no i understand im just talking about the melee portion in general, which is the aspect most PM players would care the most about seeing as how there was only an invitational for PM, not an open tournament.

 

[Scythe]

well yeah armada kicked a lot of *** as usual. Most hype belonged to m2k tho

 

[Attila the Hun]

Wolf's dthrow at low % can lead to fsmash, can't it?

I also like his bthrow, sets up random moves, sometimes sideB if they DI incorrectly.

Mind you, I'm a huge P:M noob cuz I started on Brawl, so my wavedashing/l-canceling are severely lacking, so I go with very basic combos, haha.

 

[GMaster171]

Both d and b-throw lead to f-smash at low %, idk about DI, but I doubt it matters. In the case of throws at low %, the follow up they would love would actually be f-smash, as it has no combo potential, unlike other options such as uair, shine or dair. f-throw is nice for the quick and guaranteed damage, but if you are able, try to go for more.