[WIP] Yoshi's Island: Brawl - Information and Data Collection Center

[T-block]

Yoshi's Island: Brawl
Information and Data Collection

Introduction:

Yoshi's Island: Brawl (YI:B) has become a somewhat controversial stage as of late, as the randomness that surrounds the aspects of the stage has some calling into question whether YI:B has a place in competitive play.

Randomness manifests itself on this stage in two places:

• Support Ghost - when and where the Support Ghost (also referred as SG, platform, or ghost platform) cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy
• Shy Guys - the path and timing of the Shy Guys that fly around the stage cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy

This thread shall serve as a hub for gathering data about this stage and its mechanics, with the eventual goal of serving as a compilation of all knowledge of YI:B.


Support Ghost:

• Which side the SG appears on is, as far as we know, completely random
• The SG will rise again ~6-10 seconds after it begins to descend
• The SG stays for ~2-5 seconds at the apex of its path before beginning to descent

If anyone feels like doing some testing, do a 10:00 run on YI:B in Fixed Camera mode and record the time the SG rises, which side it appears on, and when it begins to descend. Changing other variables, such as having both players stand by one ledge, or having one player constantly jumping over a SG zone is encouraged. I plan to run some basic stats on all of this eventually to see if there are any general trends, so any data can only help.

Raw Data:

Spoiler

Run #1: Two players; no actions

Side | Rises | Falls
L|9:52|9:48
R|9:42|9:39
L|9:31|9:29
R|9:19|9:15
L|9:09|9:06
R|8:57|8:53
R|8:45|8:41
R|8:33|8:29
R|8:22|8:16
L|8:09|8:04
L|7:56|7:53
L|7:46|7:42
R|7:34|7:29
L|7:20|7:17
L|7:08|7:05
L|6:56|6:52
L|6:46|6:43
L|6:34|6:29
L|6:20|6:15
R|6:08|6:05
L|5:57|5:53
R|5:46|5:44
L|5:36|5:32
R|5:23|5:19
R|5:12|5:08
R|5:02|4:59
L|4:50|4:45
L|4:38|4:32
R|4:23|4:20
L|4:14|4:09
L|3:59|3:55
L|3:49|3:46
R|3:38|3:33
R|3:24|3:21
R|3:12|3:07
R|2:58|2:54
R|2:48|2:43
R|2:37|2:33
L|2:24|2:21
L|2:11|2:08
L|2:00|1:57
R|1:49|1:44
R|1:36|1:31
R|1:22|1:17
R|1:07|1:04
L|0:57|0:54
L|0:46|0:44
R|0:35|0:33
L|0:23|0:20
L|0:11|0:07

Note that the Falls field of the raw data is the time when the Support Ghost begins to descent

Shy Guys:
-

Other mechanics:
-

~T​

 

[T-block]

Ordinarily, I would wait for a more complete OP before posting something like this, but I wanted to get the data out in public for reference, as it is relevant to future discussions.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yoshi's Island: Brawl (YI:B) has become a somewhat controversial stage as of late, as the randomness that surrounds the aspects of the stage has some calling into question whether YI:B has a place in competitive play.

No it hasn't; the same people who have advocated Mario Bros have come together and said, "let's make our next mental masturbation piece be YI:B!".

 

[T-block]

BPC, I noticed you haven't weighed in on this issue much. Have you been following my arguments about this stage?

And the Mario Bros. advocates and the YI:B haters are not the same group -_-

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do we know much about how the Shy Guys work?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

They come in at completely random times on slightly varied paths.

I believe they follow some semblance of a pattern for which comes when, but I'm probably wrong on that.

The whole random times, them appearing below the stage level, and gimping Ness and Lucas should be enough for a ban. We should be promoting character diversity, not screwing over mid-low tiers "because they're bad and shouldn't be considered" with random bs they have no control over that appears with no warning.

YI:Brawl is as bad as Pictochat.

 

[WindMajor]

I would've waited for the SA project to do this, or posted it in the group so that it would have a proper release, but I like this thread.

I'll volunteer myself to do a couple of runs with both characters to the left, then both characters to the right.

Also, when the SA project is released, you have my permission to copy/paste my data to this thread.

 

[T-block]

I doubt anyone would contribute back there that wouldn't contribute here. And as I said, I would have waited for a more formal release, but I wanted to reference the data in debate.

 

[T-block]

My point was that the randomness isn't that bad due to the isolation of the platforms, not that the Snake shouldn't have let the Falco have a free recovery, or that randomness didn't have any effect on it at all.

I say it's not that bad because what the platform does is affect a small portion of the map so that players that would normally die or not have a leg to stand on can get put on a platform that does the same exact motion over and over. If one were to be saved by the platform, the opponent would know exactly where the platform would stop, for how long, and the location of the platform is easy for a lot of characters to punish from the ledge or edge.

Compare this to lets say.... Green Greens, in which even though the bomb blocks fall randomly in an isolated area, if one were to get hit, their trajectory wouldn't be the same every time, so not only is the feature random in appearance, but the effect on the character is always different, and thus, difficult to follow.

But Twinkie, I'll say it again.

Having knowledge of what COULD happen doesn't change the fact that you don't know WHETHER it will happen. Knowing exactly how randomness will affect the match makes everything FEEL better, but in the end, it still affects the match.

Let's say that there was some stage where every time you grab the ledge you have a 10% chance of instead going into freefall and dying. When it happens in game, you could say "well... you knew it could happen", but does it really make it somehow okay? Shouldn't we instead be looking at the overall effect on a match, ignoring what the individual influences are?

I'll admit it's been a while since I've done this but I sat through like 5, 8 minute matches on YI(B) and that's the results I got.... meh.



I can't remember exactly what the time represented >.>, might have just been between one coming up and the next one coming up.

Anyway there really isn't any specific pattern to them.

Check the data in this thread. I can guarantee you it's accurate (only recorded to the second, but it's enough to give you a rough idea).

 

[WindMajor]

But Twinkie, I'll say it again.

Having knowledge of what COULD happen doesn't change the fact that you don't know WHETHER it will happen. Knowing exactly how randomness will affect the match makes everything FEEL better, but in the end, it still affects the match.

Let's say that there was some stage where every time you grab the ledge you have a 10% chance of instead going into freefall and dying. When it happens in game, you could say "well... you knew it could happen", but does it really make it somehow okay? Shouldn't we instead be looking at the overall effect on a match, ignoring what the individual influences are?

And I'll say it again.

I agree with what you're saying, but at the time, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was that randomness in YI:B does in fact make me feel better, better than randomness in other stages. Although I agree with your point, no where in my other post did I say that I believed randomness didn't affect the match.

We're not disagreeing here, I don't know why we're arguing.

 

[T-block]

Why would you make that point if you weren't trying to defend the stage though? x.x

 

[WindMajor]

I was just trying to say that the randomness in YI:B wasn't all that bad, but then you guys brought up that randomness still affects the match, which I agree with, but you guys made it sound like I didn't already know that, and that what I was saying from the start is that randomness shouldn't affect the match.

 

[T-block]

You're saying it's not all that bad BECAUSE it can be anticipated, and I'm saying the fact that it can be anticipated doesn't matter.

 

[ぱみゅ]

*subscribing*
I love you guys.

I'll take a deep think of this stage and articulate my points later...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No it hasn't; the same people who have advocated Mario Bros have come together and said, "let's make our next mental masturbation piece be YI:B!".

I don't think YI:B should be banned.

 

[Yink]

They come in at completely random times on slightly varied paths.

I believe they follow some semblance of a pattern for which comes when, but I'm probably wrong on that.

The whole random times, them appearing below the stage level, and gimping Ness and Lucas should be enough for a ban. We should be promoting character diversity, not screwing over mid-low tiers "because they're bad and shouldn't be considered" with random bs they have no control over that appears with no warning.

YI:Brawl is as bad as Pictochat.

It really is pretty bad. Normally I just tell Ness mains to "deal with it, recover low or high and you're alright", but for this stage it's just frustrating how random and conveniently placed (or so it seems ) the Fly Guys tend to appear. Generally, Ness/Lucas mains try to ban it right away.

Does that warrant the stage being banned altogether? No idea, really.

T, you might want to mention the walls of the stage though. The uneven-ness of them actually cause problems for the PK kids, and I think maybe Lucario or Pikachu (don't take my word for those though).

 

[T-block]

Yeah, I've seen Lucas make some funny bounces off that wall. I know Zelda can get stuck on the ledge there too.

Lucario loves it though... he doesn't even have to go for the ledge, since he has the option to wall cling.

Keep the info coming... it'll all get added to the OP eventually.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, that Zelda glitch....
She should never recover vertically, tho....

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC, I noticed you haven't weighed in on this issue much. Have you been following my arguments about this stage?

I honestly decided to just not give a **** about it.

And the Mario Bros. advocates and the YI:B haters are not the same group -_-

But it's the same kind of purely theoretical mental masturbation that is absolutely pointless. I could theorycraft ****ing Onett legal, does it mean that it would matter? No. It wouldn't. If it did matter, it would not make the game better. And in the meanwhile, it just hurts our credibility in regards to the crowd we want to attract the most: the normal people. This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

**** you siegfried

 

[T-block]

BPC, you are absolutely ridiculous.

Do you realize who, of the liberal stage list advocates, has hurt the credibility of the group the most? Take a guess.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

BPC, you are absolutely ridiculous.

Do you realize who, of the liberal stage list advocates, has hurt the credibility of the group the most? Take a guess.

Definitely sigging that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC, you are absolutely ridiculous.

Do you realize who, of the liberal stage list advocates, has hurt the credibility of the group the most? Take a guess.

I'd say the people who, despite being perfectly intelligent, spent the time trying to convince people that mario bros. MARIO BROS. Of all stages. Is competitively viable for brawl, even after I explained why it was a ******** idea, even after multiple people, including AMAZING AMPHAROS (when he is against a stage being legal, then it's time to quit, ok?) made writeups about how you're wrong. Wasn't you, but still...

I brought attention to this group. That my influence is negative... Meh, so it's negative. Doesn't stop me from calling out obviously horrible ideas. >.> It's not absolutely ridiculous; you're trying to get a stage banned that gets almost no complaints from anyone outside of our little in-crowd. Plus I personally believe that the goal is massively misguided and incredibly flawed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I did counter AA's post, so did Ghostbone and Twinkie iirc.

 

[T-block]

I'd say the people who, despite being perfectly intelligent, spent the time trying to convince people that mario bros. MARIO BROS. Of all stages. Is competitively viable for brawl, even after I explained why it was a ******** idea, even after multiple people, including AMAZING AMPHAROS (when he is against a stage being legal, then it's time to quit, ok?) made writeups about how you're wrong. Wasn't you, but still...

I brought attention to this group. That my influence is negative... Meh, so it's negative. Doesn't stop me from calling out obviously horrible ideas. >.> It's not absolutely ridiculous; you're trying to get a stage banned that gets almost no complaints from anyone outside of our little in-crowd. Plus I personally believe that the goal is massively misguided and incredibly flawed.

A) You should go back an re-read that thread. Most (if not all... not sure where Grim actually stands on this) acknowledge that it does not test the skill we wish to test, and should therefore remain banned. However, that does not stop the stage from being competitive (see terminology thread). I still, in 100% seriousness, maintain that the stage has competitive potential. However, it was quite clear that I would never HONESTLY push for it to be legal in our standard tournament stage list, and in my opinion it was clear for others as well.

B) I have mad respect for AA, but we do not need to take his word as law. Fallacious appeal to authority and all that. People taking his words for more than they're worth is the reason we have this obsession with the aerial-ground concept today, which is an gross oversimplification, and I'm sure AA did not mean for it to be given as much weight as it has.

C) The attention you brought was overwhelmingly negative, and I'm confident that we could have gained it in a less conflicted way if you hadn't been posting the way you did. Moreover, I myself used to be a much stronger advocate for liberal stage lists, but after you started posting I toned it way down for a couple of reasons. For one, I was deterred from wanting to be associated with this group. The other is that I saw that this group would lose credibility fast because of your rage-filled, overly predictable posts.

D) MOST IMPORTANTLY, did you even read this thread? Please quote me the part of the OP that suggests the purpose of this thread is to pursue the banning of YI:B. I thought it was clear that the purpose was to publish data from trial runs of the stage and search for patterns and trends that could be incorporated into gameplay. I said it had been somewhat controversial, and that's absolutely true. So, why is this thread bad?

Honestly man... I thought you were ridiculous but I could at least give you credit for being logical. Now I'm not so sure of that either.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I stopped considering BPC "logical" when he started pursuing his appeal to results philosophy.

Oh, and I think that Mario Bros. does test the skills we wish to test, so I'm in the minority there.

 

[MK26]

dunno what itll accomplish but right now im running a test:

fixed camera mode
start with mario and go down the roster
wait for platform to come up and go down
run off stage, air dodge, attempt to stall as long as possible while waiting for platform to rise
repeat, with a delay after platform falls, to determine when character can start stalling to have a 50-50 chance of surviving

Shorthand:
-__: must wait __ seconds after platform disappears to start stalling and receive the 50-50 chance
+__: can fall off __ seconds before platform disappears and still receive the 50-50 chance
x__: can fall off just as platform disappears and expect a platform to rise __ times before dying; Chance of survival is 1-(.5^__).

So far:

Mario: -1
DK: -3
Samus: x2
Link: -4
Kirby: -1
Fox: +2
Pikachu: 0
Marth: -3
G&W: 0
Luigi: 0
Diddy: +3
Sheik: +2
Zelda: -2
Pit: +4
MK: +2

continuing this