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Win Condition 4 Indies

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I wish you would come back EE :<

As for indies, just make it so town and scum can both interact with their wincon whatever it is, don't make them a Full BP indy or BP/Not lynchable siblings whose wincon is completely undetectable.
 

Ramen King

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You really can't be like that Zen if someone disagrees with the logic you presented.

:/
Thank you for reminding me of why I retired from this place.
^This. That kind of attitude is just flat out infuriating to deal with, and makes playing mafia more annoying than anything else.
WOW J you're being way too dense as of late for real. Not sure why. It doesn't take a marshy to realize I was joking.

Oh and you other two as well.
 

Gova

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You heard it here first, OP is a joke. Indies are fine as is.

:gova:
 

Ramen King

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:mad: @ Gova

No OP is for real. Indies need their win-conditions to be given. Otherwise it's like playing darts in the dark. #6 was not to be taken as literal, however. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't respect their opinions.

I don't, but still.

No I'm kidding :3
 

Nicholas1024

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No offence intended, Nic, but please don't lump me in as your bedfellow.
Heh, I didn't mean it like that. Just agreeing with your point of how annoying that kind of stuff is.

@Zen
Well, if you want your point to hold any weight, you should probably answer the various arguments and criticisms leveled at it. Else the topic is just going to degenerate into people shouting opinions and insults at each other.
 

Ramen King

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That's all I'm interested in. To see the current opinions on the matter. As well as to see who is willing to try it out. To argue against or for something is quite silly when no one has ever tried it. You can talk theoretically all you want, but the only way to establish support/evidence is to actually have games in which the independent win condition is given a long with the town and mafia win conditions.

I can say that my friend will be the best mafia player of all time. Others will disagree. Only from him playing games will we be able to support either of our views.
 

Evil Eye

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If you give the independent win condition you're also telling town what type of indy is in the game. This also effectively tells the town what the indy can do.

In addition to having multiple voices, votes, and minds the mafia does not have this disadvantage. Town merely knows that they exist, not what sort of tomfoolery they may be able to perform through their various roles. If there's an SK in the game, you confirm it by providing the indy wincon, forcing the SK to claim VT or pull gambit BS down the line rather than taking the vig path (which can work if you play it right). This will also create a DGames meta where everyone who claims vig becomes confirmed town by claim alone, because the major worry (SK) is deconfirmed by an absence of an SK being mentioned in the OP.

Sorry, but no. You can absolutely argue things from a theoretical perspective if the evidence is right there in your face. The fact that you don't like indies is clearly blinding your judgment on this one.
 

Ramen King

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SK I would actually exclude. I thought about that when making my post, but not too much on it.

Marker should for sure. Or as Kary said, player's should be told if they are marked. That's actually a very fine solution. I'm talking about roles like that, that completely come out of no where and town has no idea what they would even be looking for. Marker doesn't even have a reason to play against town otherwise.

(and I do actually like indies. I've only been SK once, but it's my favorite role so far).
 

Evil Eye

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That's bad design then, so don't try to institute policy for it. Just expect good design and criticize when it isn't there.

I remember when Ryker and I went through Hentai Mafia 2 the most important thing was making sure we had enough clues to the existence of our indies (SK, Cult). There are ways to put the information into the setup without taking a **** all over the unlucky ******* that gets the indy slot.


EDIT:

I can say that my friend will be the best mafia player of all time. Others will disagree. Only from him playing games will we be able to support either of our views.
This is a really awful argument when you're trying to argue against theoretical stances, by the way. "I can say that an atomic bomb will explode if you detonate it and you can disagree, but only from detonating the bomb will we be able to support either of our views"
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

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Warlock is a pretty mega lame role and there aren't many ways to fairly allow a town to become aware of its presence and adjust their play accordingly without fundamentally screwing the Warlock. I just think warlocks ought not be used in most cases.

As far as pipers/markers go, the easiest way to give the town a chance to become aware of them, is to have people who are marked flip as such when they die. Don't tell people they are marked once they get marked (because then the piper's cover is blown from N1 on) but punish the piper more for guessing incorrectly who will survive, and reward them for being good at picking people who don't die. That is the entire point of the role afterall.

Think like the immunizer from bear and fish. People flipping "immunized" when they were marked was a perfect way to allow the town to have a way to figure out, at least in part, what the marker was up to. Granted, the marker's presence was confirmed in the OP of the game, but you get my point. I feel like as long as that mechanic is preserved, including pipers/markers in games is just as fair as any other legitimate indy role that has a mutually exclusive wincon from the town and mafia (because indys that don't have mutually exclusive wincons are ****ing cancer and should never be used).
 

X1-12

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indies always gotta keep themselves alive though. no-one to bus etc.
Everytime you correctly lynch a scummy its like a bus but your faction doesn't actually lose a member


I'm not gonna lie I don't see why everyone thinks Indies are so hard to play/underpowered, I'm pretty sure I remember J doing a count up of the Archive thread and indies had won almost exactly one third of the games with indies in and I think a greater proportion than of town wins.
 

#HBC | J

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Seems my track record comes to use.

Indie Win/Lose Ratio: 22/71
Overall Indie Win/Lose Ratio: 29/79
Overall Indie Percentage: 36.70%
 

Circus

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If you can't find the indy, then the indy is playing well. That's really all there is to it.

It is surely the case that, in some games, the indy is favored in the swing of the game, but all games have a little swing (and indeed, there are some games where an indy has practically no chance of achieving their wincon at all). If there's a scenario in which the indy is actually so favored as to be nearly or completely broken, then that's an issue to be taken with the individual set-up, not an issue that needs to be resolved for indies as a whole.
 

Ramen King

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@EE: I get ya for the most part. There's one thing I'd like to go over though when I get back from vacation.

@FF: That, I think, is actually a very efficient solution to my concern with marker.

@Radical Fiction: This is actually something I'd say you're not very credible in. And I'm not saying that in a condescending way. Swiss have you ever been indy or even created a set up before? Ryker's Touhou game is where my biggest issue comes from with Marker. An unlimited bulletproof tracker marker that is investigated as innocent? There really is no way for that to lose.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Touhou changed a lot of my perceptions about the marker role. It was BP because because there were 6ish killing roles in that game. It was originally made to figure out whether a game could function under such conditions if countermeasures were taken. BP marker is an issue. Regular marker can work, but I don't like it. FF actually has the correct solution to marker.

As much as the role was not correctly done, the role still had ways to lose. He had to have players survive, which meant that he had to not get lynched while targeting players that he thought would live rather than players that should be tracked. Town and mafia both crumbled though, so it wasn't hard at all.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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The only indies that are commonplace in DGames right now that shouldn't exist are Survivors/Lovers and indies thrown in for the sake of being indies.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Most indies aren't bad, they are usually just poorly balanced by the host. Marker in G3S #2 was OP because the game was experimental and diffucult to balance well and Touhou was a cluster**** in general.

:059:
 

Swiss

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@Radical Fiction: This is actually something I'd say you're not very credible in. And I'm not saying that in a condescending way. Swiss have you ever been indy or even created a set up before? Ryker's Touhou game is where my biggest issue comes from with Marker. An unlimited bulletproof tracker marker that is investigated as innocent? There really is no way for that to lose.
Have I ever been indy? Yes. I've won and lost as indie. Both solo and in hydras. I'll overlook your ignorance.

I've created games and have been brought in to help fine tune & save multiple games. When people come to you for advice it's safe to say you probably aren't stupid. And hell, even if I'd never been involved in set-ups, the fact that I've been playing mafia for years probably means I know that the **** I'm talking about.

I'll not comment for Ryker.

The suggestion that the Indie wincon should be made public is surprisingly obtuse. If the wincon is public, their core role is public, if their core role is public - town and scum know how to counter them. Town PR's suddenly are able to guage a degree of their individual effectiveness and scum know exactly how much they need to indie hunt VS PR hunt. I think someone (and you) touched on the SK aspect, but suffice to say wtf.
 

DtJ S2n

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FrozenFlame is right. His example is one of many ways to fix the problem. Would like to see some testing with Marker under those conditions, seeing as I don't know if Marker should be considered fine for queue or not.

also I just noticed it

obviously stew, town flying pumpkin that shoots laserbeams out of its ***

why did i ever believe that ****

why was i so stupid

why
1. Because it was a Ryker set-up

2 YES I'M SO HAPPY SOMEBODY BEEELIEEEVED IT
I consider that a COMPLETE VICTORY to this day. Like really how did I NOT get MvP if I got someone to believe a Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laserbeams out it's *** claim?

That should be a rule from now on. Anybody who gets that claim to pass gets MvP, even if it's really their role.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Marker is just unimaginative. Really, there's not been a reason to throw one in other than to throw one in that acts separately from the rest of the game. No synergy in set-ups that I've seen.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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I thought the dueling markers in UTrick'd were hilarious and well done.

I think the only complaint I had was that they didn't know the identities of any of the players they had already had. Considering they had six, it was ~1/3 shot to hit one of them already and was completely luck-based.
 

adumbrodeus

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I don't quite agree with the proposed solution, but I've brought up similar concerns before, centered around ff9 mafia.

Due to the inherent variety in indies having them win alone off some unknown arbitrary factor plays havok with the mental game that mafia is supposed to be. Fine in established b***ard games, but shouldn't be presented as normal.


Frankly though, I think we need to back off this love affair with indies as a community.

WOW J you're being way too dense as of late for real. Not sure why. It doesn't take a marshy to realize I was joking.

Oh and you other two as well.
Given no other context, unless somebody knew you really well it would be impossible to discern from simple extreme arrogance, especially off first read. In case you haven't realized, that's pretty common around here.


Make your jokes more obvious next time.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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I don't quite agree with the proposed solution, but I've brought up similar concerns before, centered around ff9 mafia.

Due to the inherent variety in indies having them win alone off some unknown arbitrary factor plays havok with the mental game that mafia is supposed to be. Fine in established b***ard games, but shouldn't be presented as normal.
So you're suggesting indies should be standardized?


Frankly though, I think we need to back off this love affair with indies as a community.
Nah, **** that, indies are the best. I love nothing more than designing a great indy and seeing great indies designed.
 

adumbrodeus

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Because too many solo indy wincons are just unfair to read, simply because you can make an indy have literally any wincon.


For example: Wins alone when a day phase begins and there are exactly 10 people alive (13 man game, no nk besides mafia).


It detracts from the game because it means that you can literally understand everything about the person be screwed over by actions that were motivated by a wincon you simply could not be expected to predict.


That's why nobody uses jesters anymore.





So you're suggesting indies should be standardized?
Indies that joint win? Nah, pretty much go crazy unless their expected behavior is openly detrimental to the game.



Indies that win solo? They need indications in the type of wincon they have so town/mafia can actually read for them. SKs and their variants are good in this department. Markers that indicate who they mark are good as well.

Just get creative, you can legitimately figure out their wincon based on the elements of their role/based on how they will have to play in order to accomplish their goal, then this issue will be satisfied.


Nah, **** that, indies are the best. I love nothing more than designing a great indy and seeing great indies designed.
Indies lose their specialness when there's not a single game without an indy these days.
 

Gova

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Thy words hast struck me to the heart, I thought thou wast my friend, but you have wounded me!


Only a duel can assuage my honor good sir, I challenge thee! Meet me at dawn on the field of honor!
Would prefer dusk. Not really a dawn person.

:gova:
 

#HBC | J

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Adumb said:
Given no other context, unless somebody knew you really well it would be impossible to discern from simple extreme arrogance, especially off first read. In case you haven't realized, that's pretty common around here.

Make your jokes more obvious next time.
Given the context, I was in the wrong and we already talked about it so we are cool.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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Because too many solo indy wincons are just unfair to read, simply because you can make an indy have literally any wincon.
Well, duh. They need to have something that sets them apart from town or scum. I like the creativity in wincons but they should have a nearly unanimous one: survive until endgame. Suddenly indies have a hard road ahead of them.


For example: Wins alone when a day phase begins and there are exactly 10 people alive (13 man game, no nk besides mafia).
That'd be dumb. No one should use that. It's such an easy wincon to hit because you have to dodge three lynches. Such a stupid easy indy to win with.

It detracts from the game because it means that you can literally understand everything about the person be screwed over by actions that were motivated by a wincon you simply could not be expected to predict.
And? I think markers are efficient at not effecting the game too well. I wouldn't use one unless it was Glyfe's dueling markers. Poisoners and Arsonists come with their own respective roles to counter them. Any host should provide hints that an indy exists. Ignoring those hints should have negative repercussions.

Some hosts, obviously, don't. That's why we have grandmaster inbot and his cronies marshy and raz checking set-ups in the first place.


That's why nobody uses jesters anymore.
Nah, it's because they're the biggest distraction mafia has to offer. It's not just the fact you have to predict their wincon or allow them to win, it's also the fact that they will literally be a scummy ******* for the sake of fulfilling their wincon. Scum won't touch him, so town has to deal with an intentional distraction until they give up and lynch him. They're not fun to play with at all. That's why no one uses them.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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Indies lose their specialness when there's not a single game without an indy these days.
OS consistently has indies. Each of them are pretty unique in what they do and accomplish.

Likewise, I felt Raz's indy really was special. No one finds a mafia special by how often it's there, they find it special by what it does and who comprised it. Same thing here.
 

Circus

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Because too many solo indy wincons are just unfair to read, simply because you can make an indy have literally any wincon.


For example: Wins alone when a day phase begins and there are exactly 10 people alive (13 man game, no nk besides mafia).


It detracts from the game because it means that you can literally understand everything about the person be screwed over by actions that were motivated by a wincon you simply could not be expected to predict.


That's why nobody uses jesters anymore.
I'm gonna reiterate that this is an issue with the way specific independent roles are/could be designed, not something that should be held against the entire alignment. Yes, you can make bad indy roles, just as you can make bad town and mafia roles. That's still no reason to out an indy at the beginning of every game that features one by posting their wincon in the OP.

Frozen's method is best. Give ways for clues to be dropped about the indy over the course of the game if the indy doesn't play optimally. Anything harsher than that would limit the indy's chances at victory too severely.
 
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