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Win Condition 4 Indies

#HBC | ZoZo

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Indies are fun to design because they allow a lot of freedom.

But it's also why they're annoying to find. Plant indy is cool because people know (and other balancing coolthings, but eh). Hidden Marker is dumb.


HOLY **** MEGA NINJA
 

Overswarm

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Indies don't have an advantage in any sense of the word. CERTAIN indies, like jesters, may have an advantage but by and large they do not have an advantage as their death prevents their wincon.

Because of this, actions telling of self-preservation above all else and the need to not be TOO townie/scummy so as not to be targeted by either faction or claiming something specifically designed to prevent their death if they are seen as too town/scummy (Bulletproof, unlynchable, jester, etc.) can all be considered "indie tells". The rabbit hole goes further given that indies are often the first to BRING UP indies and they are also most likely to want to push a lynch through since if someone else is lynched it isn't them that day. There are many tells to find, and that is all you get from knowing town/mafia win cons.

On top of this, mafia and town win cons are not always the same, as evident by both The Wall, Chibo's one team-based game, and any other game with multiple factions/win conditions. This is excluding the fact that different towns have had different win conditions that are similar, but slightly different, in the past.

As such, your premise is flawed. You are addressing an issue that doesn't exist.
 

adumbrodeus

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Would prefer dusk. Not really a dawn person.

:gova:
Knave! Tradition must be maintained!

Art thou declining my duel?!

Well, duh. They need to have something that sets them apart from town or scum. I like the creativity in wincons but they should have a nearly unanimous one: survive until endgame. Suddenly indies have a hard road ahead of them.

It is, but it's also exactly what causes potential issues when they're designed in a way that they can't be read.


That'd be dumb. No one should use that. It's such an easy wincon to hit because you have to dodge three lynches. Such a stupid easy indy to win with.
You misread, "no nk besides mafia".

10 alive, 13 man game, 1 nk, 1 lynch, day start (which was assumed, but it's standard for here), and it only triggers at the start of a day.

13
11
9

You have to convince people to no lynch in a 13 man game, which unless you're playing with ridiculously stupid people, is really had.


And? I think markers are efficient at not effecting the game too well. I wouldn't use one unless it was Glyfe's dueling markers. Poisoners and Arsonists come with their own respective roles to counter them. Any host should provide hints that an indy exists. Ignoring those hints should have negative repercussions.
It sounds like we're in violent agreement, never the less as I said before I'm not really concerned about Sks, it's more about the more esoteric indies.

Some hosts, obviously, don't. That's why we have grandmaster inbot and his cronies marshy and raz checking set-ups in the first place.
This is a matter of game design philosophy, I've seen a fair number of indies with odd wincons that didn't involve killing in my time.


Nah, it's because they're the biggest distraction mafia has to offer. It's not just the fact you have to predict their wincon or allow them to win, it's also the fact that they will literally be a scummy ******* for the sake of fulfilling their wincon. Scum won't touch him, so town has to deal with an intentional distraction until they give up and lynch him. They're not fun to play with at all. That's why no one uses them.
They're annoying because they detract from the reading and manipulation that makes the game interesting.

OS consistently has indies. Each of them are pretty unique in what they do and accomplish.

Likewise, I felt Raz's indy really was special. No one finds a mafia special by how often it's there, they find it special by what it does and who comprised it. Same thing here.
And what about everyone else? What about the veritable ocean of indies in dgames? What proportion of games here were actually improved by having indies?

I'm gonna reiterate that this is an issue with the way specific independent roles are/could be designed, not something that should be held against the entire alignment. Yes, you can make bad indy roles, just as you can make bad town and mafia roles. That's still no reason to out an indy at the beginning of every game that features one by posting their wincon in the OP.

Frozen's method is best. Give ways for clues to be dropped about the indy over the course of the game if the indy doesn't play optimally. Anything harsher than that would limit the indy's chances at victory too severely.
I'm not suggesting Zen's solution and I do agree.

Don't like frozen's specific solution, indies should be designed organically, it's a good fallback option i guess, when you can't figure out a better way to give the indie a unique avenue they can be read from.
 

Raziek

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OS consistently has indies. Each of them are pretty unique in what they do and accomplish.

Likewise, I felt Raz's indy really was special. No one finds a mafia special by how often it's there, they find it special by what it does and who comprised it. Same thing here.
<3

That Indy was what birthed the set-up itself.

I was thinking about how I wanted to implement Ramirez, then the entire thing sprung out of that during a brainwave at 3 AM.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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The rabbit hole goes further given that indies are often the first to BRING UP indies and they are also most likely to want to push a lynch through since if someone else is lynched it isn't them that day. There are many tells to find, and that is all you get from knowing town/mafia win cons.
I still can't believe you figured out FrozenFlame was the Indy in Fire Emblem off that alone.
 

Overswarm

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I still can't believe you figured out FrozenFlame was the Indy in Fire Emblem off that alone.
Every alignment has smart tells and dumb tells. I'm good at picking up smart tells more than dumb tells, but especially good at picking up power role (town) tells and indie tells.

Dumb tells are often super obvious because they try to hide it because they know they need to hide it.

Smart tells are often hidden in plain sight because the player using them doesn't want to do anything in particular, just direct the conversation. One of the ways indies do this is by bringing up an indie or replying with a substantial reply to whoever did. FF mentioned indie first, and the other indie (C something?) took it and ran with it, so we managed to get both tells right off the bat. Funnily enough, I had missed FF's original indie mention because I was so fixated on the other indie spouting off indie talk and being super defensive.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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This is a matter of game design philosophy, I've seen a fair number of indies with odd wincons that didn't involve killing in my time.
So have I. Indies shouldn't always be SKs or SK variants. I don't like using such a role because it shrinks town's margin of error. I'd rather use an indy that didn't kill all the bloody time.

One of my favorite wincons I've ever received as an indy was to make the host laugh. It was the most enjoyable game for me and I played to that wincon well. Once we achieved it, we didn't actually win, we just got a real wincon (lynch scum but have town under a certain number of players). It was kind of a bull**** wincon but it worked. I enjoyed playing the set-up with it but it didn't negatively impact the game that much. Your point?

And what about everyone else? What about the veritable ocean of indies in dgames? What proportion of games here were actually improved by having indies?
You're trying to justify an indy's quality based on the quantity of them and I don't agree with that. An indy should be justified by its own merits, just as a town should be justified by theirs as well as a mafia. I think unpredictability plays on that (which is why I vehemently disagree with Zen's suggestion) but I also do not think that we should outright stop using them. I love putting indies in my set-up and watching how they change things simply by altering the town/mafia dichotomy with their separate wincon.

As such, quantity really shouldn't be considered. Was Hentai Mafia 2 a high-quality set-up because of its variation or because of how well EE and Ryker put the game together?
 

adumbrodeus

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So have I. Indies shouldn't always be SKs or SK variants. I don't like using such a role because it shrinks town's margin of error. I'd rather use an indy that didn't kill all the bloody time.

One of my favorite wincons I've ever received as an indy was to make the host laugh. It was the most enjoyable game for me and I played to that wincon well. Once we achieved it, we didn't actually win, we just got a real wincon (lynch scum but have town under a certain number of players). It was kind of a bull**** wincon but it worked.
That was sort of two separate points.

On game design philosophy, i don't think master inbot is gonna say "this indy isn't sufficently readable, scrap it".


The thing about killing roles is that they are readable, which sort of bypasses this whole issue. Yes they're boring, but you know, every game has to have an indy and they're a nice copout.

You're trying to justify an indy's quality based on the quantity of them and I don't agree with that. An indy should be justified by its own merits, just as a town should be justified by theirs as well as a mafia. I think unpredictability plays on that (which is why I vehemently disagree with Zen's suggestion) but I also do not think that we should outright stop using them. I love putting indies in my set-up and watching how they change things simply by altering the town/mafia dichotomy with their separate wincon.

As such, quantity really shouldn't be considered. Was Hentai Mafia 2 a high-quality set-up because of its variation or because of how well EE and Ryker put the game together?
You misunderstand, I'm saying that there needs to be a decrease in the number of indies because most people suck at making them, and they become boring when they're in EVERY.SINGLE.GAME.


Also, a general philosophy change, people shouldn't automatically think that to be unique and interesting a setup has to include indies.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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People suck at making good towns too. No one *****es about that.

EDIT: Nah, actually, that's besides the point. I include indies because I like them. I'd imagine this is applicable for others. I don't see anything wrong with the use of them. Expecting every indy presented to be awesome isn't possible. That'd be like expecting a high caliber game from every host on the site with amazing ideas, set-up mechanics, and functions and that's just not going to happen. Hosts have off-games or are simply new. Decreasing the number of it isn't automatically going to make every indy fresh or exciting.
 

adumbrodeus

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since when?

But making a good indy is a lot harder then making a good townie


Edit: It will however, increase the variety of games that exist on the sight by a massive margin
 

#HBC | Laundry

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Does it matter? Town's strengths are easy to overcome by throwing in nerfs. No one knows how to nerf or buff an indy because no one knows how strong an indy is or what it's supposed to do sometime. Saying "HEY DON'T USE THIS ****" isn't going to teach them either.

And, honestly, we can do a lot more (and a lot better) than just say don't use indies to increase variation.
 

adumbrodeus

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There is no single thing that we can do to increase the variety in dgames then convince people that "it's ok if your setup doesn't have indies".

Yes there's plenty else that you can do, but they're more subtle and won't create as massive a change.




So, every game should have indies because people need to practice balancing them? From the player prospective it's nice to have at least a few games that aren't completely experimental.
 

No Hetero

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Marker is just unimaginative. Really, there's not been a reason to throw one in other than to throw one in that acts separately from the rest of the game. No synergy in set-ups that I've seen.
I think the marker in Halloween Party was pretty inspired. Just saying.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Also don't forget with Indies.

You.
Guys.
Are.
Unbelievably.
********.
Beyond.
Belief.

Gogdamn, I was seething yesterday at all of this miserable bull****.

vote: Red Ruy

WHY THE **** DID YOU *******S NOT AUTO-LYNCH HIM ON HIS CLAIM? WHY THE **** DO YOU THINK THIS GAME IS STILL GOING IF HE'S NOT LYING ABOUT HIS CLAIM? HE JUST CLAIMED INDY.

I-N-D-Y

THAT IS NOT GOGDAMN TOWN. THAT IS NOT A PART OF OUR WINCON. THAT IS A SEPARATE WINCON. IF HE HAD A WINCON SIMILAR TO TOWN'S, HE WOULD NOT BE AN INDY. DO NOT SIT THERE AND FOOL YOURSELF INTO BUYING HIS UNBELIEVABLY ****TY CLAIM SIMPLY BECAUSE HE SAID "OH IT'S OKAY I WIN WITH YOU GUYS!"

BESIDES, WITH 7 PEOPLE LEFT, IT'S EITHER 2 SCUM AND AN INDY (WHICH WOULD BE BORDERLINE INSANE WITH AN INDY ALREADY FLIPPED) AND THEREFORE SAFE TO LYNCH HIM OR THREE SCUM LEFT--AND STILL SAFE TO LYNCH HIM.
 

adumbrodeus

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I'm not saying they can't, but the more experimental the game is, usually the less it emphasizes day play and by nature the more off the balance is gonna be on average.


But frankly this is most about variety, games without indies period are incredibly rare. I'd like to see a few on occasion.
 

Overswarm

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The "balance" of mafia is a variable in of itself; any role, including VT, affects the balance. Indies are often the easiest way to add spice to a game while maintaining balance. What you are looking for isn't balance, but predictability; they are not one in the same.
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

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I found indy to be very entertaining from an alignment standpoint, it's nice to be able to scum hunt and get townie points while simultaneously going for towns throats.

And in all honesty i think the fact they have to outlive everyone is already enough of a hill to climb without outing the indies win-condition in a particular game.

Granted indies may get a little extra to help them in some cases but usually all they have is their play and ability (whether it be abductor , serial killer , wizard , jester ) or what have you.
 

#HBC | Laundry

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The "balance" of mafia is a variable in of itself; any role, including VT, affects the balance. Indies are often the easiest way to add spice to a game while maintaining balance. What you are looking for isn't balance, but predictability; they are not one in the same.
everything this man said

print it, engrave it, hang it everywhere
 

adumbrodeus

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The "balance" of mafia is a variable in of itself; any role, including VT, affects the balance. Indies are often the easiest way to add spice to a game while maintaining balance. What you are looking for isn't balance, but predictability; they are not one in the same.
No im not, you're confusing my personal preference in gametype with an argument I am using to encourage something else.


I'm not saying that indies by nature make a game unbalanced, but by the very nature, it means you can analyze it less mathematically meaning balance is pure judgement call. Obviously certain roles do it to, any role with power that's more then just raw number of people town can kill/clear is this, but at the same time, there's very few things which affect this as dramatically as adding another faction.


I'm not saying it makes a game inherently unbalanced, just more difficult to judge. Unlike gheb I don't think this makes it bad per say, but being more difficult means more mods should avoid it.


And frankly, indies in and of themselves aren't spice anymore. If you wanna add spice with indies, make a spicy indy.
 

Overswarm

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I'm not saying that indies by nature make a game unbalanced, but by the very nature, it means you can analyze it less mathematically meaning balance is pure judgement call. Obviously certain roles do it to, any role with power that's more then just raw number of people town can kill/clear is this, but at the same time, there's very few things which affect this as dramatically as adding another faction.
That's assuming mafia can be mathematically solved. It can't. It can observed mathematically, but not solved. If you have 2 mafia and 4 town, you can say "we have a 33% chance of hitting town and a 66% chance of hitting scum", sure. But this doesn't actually have any effect on the balance of the game itself, it's merely a result of how a game was balanced. As far as I'm concerned, determining who is or isn't town , indie, or mafia is a viable skill in mafia and has been shown to be an actual skill by many different players.

Because of this, when designing a game you can't say that X mafia and Y town are a good interpretation of "balance" for any reason other than historic precedence. If you find 50% win rates with 3 mafia and 9 town, you can say that is "close to balanced", but you cannot assume that just because 3/9 works that 4/12 would work, or 5/15 would work, or so on and so forth. It's not a simple number ratio.

Indies, or the possibility of them, also are insurance against a lucky draw by town. In OS All-Stars there was a pretty hefty swing against mafia early on, but JTB was set up to go to a 3 man lylo if he had just survived that last day on his own. While JTB's play was pretty good, what allowed him to potentially survive a plain PoE attack was the possibility of a town player being an indy. Without that, once you feel someone is anti-mafia, you can determine they are pro-town. With an indie this isn't the case, and it is important for the balance of most games. The possibility is important for EVERY game.

And frankly, indies in and of themselves aren't spice anymore. If you wanna add spice with indies, make a spicy indy.
Have you READ my games? I made an omnipotent indie for pete's sake! XD
 
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