Will the air dodge make the game very counter-heavy?

[Quillion]

The Air Dodge has pretty much always been the deciding factor in how the competitive scene goes.

In 64; there was no air dodging.

In Melee, we had an air dodge that allowed for wavedashing but was highly punishable and useless otherwise.

In Brawl, it was incredibly cheap; allowing you to instantly escape hitstun and was THE deciding factor in making it as defensive as it was.

And here we are with the new conserving air dodge. It's still momentum-conserving as Brawl's, but has greater landing lag. However, this is rendered null by the new IASA on ADs, which allow you to use low-lag aerials to reduce your landing lag, as well as attack out of air dodging.

So it seems like the game will, instead of being offensive or defensive-heavy, will be full of counterattack playing. You can't AD out of hitstun anymore, so combos are going to be a thing. So the key to initiating combos will be punishing a mistake, then following up after that.

 

[Judo777]

The Air Dodge has pretty much always been the deciding factor in how the competitive scene goes.

In 64; there was no air dodging.

In Melee, we had an air dodge that allowed for wavedashing but was highly punishable and useless otherwise.

In Brawl, it was incredibly cheap; allowing you to instantly escape hitstun and was THE deciding factor in making it as defensive as it was.

And here we are with the new conserving air dodge. It's still momentum-conserving as Brawl's, but has greater landing lag. However, this is rendered null by the new IASA on ADs, which allow you to use low-lag aerials to reduce your landing lag, as well as attack out of air dodging.

So it seems like the game will, instead of being offensive or defensive-heavy, will be full of counterattack playing. You can't AD out of hitstun anymore, so combos are going to be a thing. So the key to initiating combos will be punishing a mistake, then following up after that.

You could never air dodge out of hitstun. And at high levels people didn't use it after being hit, as they opted for aerials instead because it momentum canceled better.

Smash 4 plays pretty similar to Brawl, but with a few rule changes (as far as I have seen so far).

 

[Doval]

You could never air dodge out of hitstun. And at high levels people didn't use it after being hit, as they opted for aerials instead because it momentum canceled better.

Smash 4 plays pretty similar to Brawl, but with a few rule changes (as far as I have seen so far).

You could always air dodge after a certain number of frames, which is almost always sooner than the duration of hit stun. At high %s your air dodge or attack will finish sooner than waiting out the entire hit stun assuming you didn't pick a stupid attack like Link's down aerial.

It's still momentum-conserving as Brawl's, but has greater landing lag. However, this is rendered null by the new IASA on ADs, which allow you to use low-lag aerials to reduce your landing lag, as well as attack out of air dodging.

You can't attack out of air dodging, it's just that you still get stuck with the landing lag if you land within a certain amount of time after the air dodge ends. Using an aerial only helps when your air dodge finishes shortly before you land, and most attacks have at least as much landing lag as air dodges used to. You can only completely bypass the landing lag if your attack can autocancel, but the timing is usually much stricter than L-canceling was in Melee.

 

[Judo777]

You could always air dodge after a certain number of frames, which is almost always sooner than the duration of hit stun. At high %s your air dodge or attack will finish sooner than waiting out the entire hit stun assuming you didn't pick a stupid attack like Link's down aerial.
You can't attack out of air dodging, it's just that you still get stuck with the landing lag if you land within a certain amount of time after the air dodge ends. Using an aerial only helps when your air dodge finishes shortly before you land, and most attacks have at least as much landing lag as air dodges used to. You can only completely bypass the landing lag if your attack can autocancel, but the timing is usually much stricter than L-canceling was in Melee.

No doing an aerial simply transitioned from the 2nd stage of hitstun to the third stage of hitstun which would then end after a set amount of time. Doing an aerial helped speed up the process of ending hitstun, but never canceled it completely. You still had to experience all of the third stage of hitstun. The most important part of doing the aerial was that it allowed you to fast fall upon execution which slowed you down. And this is referring to the second stage of hitstun which no one ever really even talked about.

When most people mention hitstun in brawl, they mean the first stage, which can't be canceled with anything. The only significance of the other stages is that you can't freely DI cant freely DI in second stage or third, and you cant use B moves or jump in 2nd stage.

 

[Doval]

No doing an aerial simply transitioned from the 2nd stage of hitstun to the third stage of hitstun which would then end after a set amount of time. Doing an aerial helped speed up the process of ending hitstun, but never canceled it completely. You still had to experience all of the third stage of hitstun. The most important part of doing the aerial was that it allowed you to fast fall upon execution which slowed you down. And this is referring to the second stage of hitstun which no one ever really even talked about.

When most people mention hitstun in brawl, they mean the first stage, which can't be canceled with anything. The only significance of the other stages is that you can't freely DI cant freely DI in second stage or third, and you cant use B moves in 2nd stage.

You lost me. What stages? Where are they defined? Hit stun has never had stages in any of the other games.

 

[Judo777]

Here is a picture from the DI thread when Brawl first came out.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=307rzbk&s=5#.VE_nIfnF-c5

 

[Doval]

Here is a picture from the DI thread when Brawl first came out.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=307rzbk&s=5#.VE_nIfnF-c5

Eh, we're arguing semantics. Regardless of your favorite definition of hit stun, Brawl allows you to air dodge or attack much sooner than you would be able to in any other Smash game.

 

[popsofctown]

Eh, we're arguing semantics. Regardless of your favorite definition of hit stun, Brawl allows you to air dodge or attack much sooner than you would be able to in any other Smash game.

My favorite definition of hitstun is the -official- one that appears in the tips screen, which describes it as the state in which you can smash DI (hitstun shuffling), which is, in fact, a state in which you CANNOT airdodge.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Using attacks to cancel the lag after an air dodge still makes you commit to that move which people can punish.

 

[popsofctown]

Using attacks to cancel the lag after an air dodge still makes you commit to that move which people can punish.

Not if you time it into the autocancel window of the move, the first few frames of many aerials have no landing lag.

You're still vulnerable just before you hit the ground using Delux cancelling though, even if you're frame perfect.

 

[Jaxas]

Keep in mind that there are very few (I believe only like 5?) characters who can use the IASA frames to reduce landing lag out of a Short Hopped AD, and for those characters the AD has to be buffered during the jump.

Also, you can punish Brawl's ADs into the ground, the window is just very short.

 

[Shaya]

Brawl Air dodges into the ground ended up being a keystone to Brawl technicality. Air dodging into the ground had the same lag as a regular landing.
It was basically a big "I'm now giving myself my 10 frame buffer window with near safety". It did end up turning positive in the meta in my opinion, although this game that same reason no longer exists, but it does remove the "freedom" of cancelling an invincibility inducing move without nearly any shortfalls.

 

[Judo777]

Brawl Air dodges into the ground ended up being a keystone to Brawl technicality. Air dodging into the ground had the same lag as a regular landing.
It was basically a big "I'm now giving myself my 10 frame buffer window with near safety". It did end up turning positive in the meta in my opinion, although this game that same reason no longer exists, but it does remove the "freedom" of cancelling an invincibility inducing move without nearly any shortfalls.

I might have missed the what you were getting at, but I personally feel that airdodging in brawl was very fair, airdodging into the ground turned out to be pretty punishable (people did it many many times a match) and had pros and cons. The pro being that they were invincible before the landing window so as to avoid late hitboxes hanging above the gound like Usmash's (we will say Zss for the sake of example) with the cons of being a very early commitment. Once you airdodge you have made the decision to be vulnerable at that window and to do nothing else until that window expires.

The new airdodge mechanic eliminates a little bit of that. Take the classic example of olimars usmash in brawl. There was an inherent mixup with trapping people with that move. It had the special property of losing to most aerials if the hitbox was out. So if you are forced to land ontop of Olimar and he is charging an usmash there is a mixup that occurs Olimar can simply wait for you to land (airdodge or not) and time the usmash right as you land, however if the player falling read this, he can simply do an aerial before hitting the and hit olimar before his usmash comes out (he is timing it for when he hits the ground not before). However if the olimar knows the other player will try to attack him before actually hitting the ground the olimar can release his usmash early hitting the player much higher than when the player will be able to attack Olimar. Obviously releasing usmash early is very susceptible to the original option which is airdodging through the high usmash (timed for high above the Olimar player) and counter attacking upon landing. So you get a very fundamental rock paper scissors out of a common situation. (just realized this illustration didn't need olimar as the pikmin properties weren't relevant).

Ike had a very special Usmash in this regard, because of its unusual arc and length, Ike could actually time his usmash to follow you to the ground as you landed essentially eliminating the mixup up of hitting him early because his sword will beat you if you swing early, and if you don't and airdodge it follows you to the ground and hits you anyway. This was a pretty major strength in Ikes gameplay.

In the new game I feel that many more characters will have the same thing Ike did in brawl because now leaving high hitting usmash's (or any hitbox that hits high long before the opponent hits the ground) does not get defeated by airdodging through and the punishing. Infact the player airdodging gets punished. A common example is something like Marth utilting you as you try to land, he times the utilt to swat any anti air attempt you may try, and hit you if you do nothing, but it should end with more than ample time to punish an airdodge through due to the extra lag in this game. Literally now the goal is simply to avoid landing near your opponent like the plague because its usually free damage.

 

[Fox Hater]

I don't want to be insulting or be rude but sometimes I feel people are simply ******** or blinded so bad because they want to defend a game they like I guess because it has their favorites character, or in this game they can win and lets face it... we are all Nintendo Fanboys.

But this game will play very, very , very similar to brawl. There is no denying it.. It could even be worse because of some really really bad game design call from Sakurai.

So instead of talking blah blah blah like some people in this thread about 2nd or 3rd hit stun stage -.-

Ill go with facts... First look at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

So as you can see you can avoid the landing lag of the airdodge

Also you can cancel hit stun with airdodge, don't try to be blind and go to specifics that really don't matter... again let me educate you with proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PSYwAf_BXgc#t=410 DOUBLE AIR DODGE FTW

Here is another and you can see them baiting air dodge but still it doesn't matter... and these are not noobs these are good brawl players
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PSYwAf_BXgc#t=456

Now don't get me wrong I think (and it is what I have seen) that maybe the timing to DI and airdodge is more strict in this game hence why you see some combos ( usually d throw to a follow up aerial in low or 0% ) but these cant be really called "combos"...

I love and laugh when I see a smash 4 tournament and its like the commentators are begging for a bit of action that when a "combo"happens they freak out and get hype. The funny thing is the combo most likely is Dthrow + 2 aerials... or uptilt + uptilt + to an aerial... haha lame.

now to finish here is another video analysis I liked a lot I don't know whether what he says its true or not but to me makes a lot of sense. I am amazed it only has 43 views. The first part f the review is about the game in a very casual way so it might not be what we are looking for.. but the rest of the video I think he is on point and very neutral when he makes the review. Please watch the link it is set to begin when the important part of the review happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6lZa9j9qso#t=824

I believe smash 4 has the potential to be a better competitive game than brawl was. but as what it stands now it has two awful game design choices that make brawl look better sometimes.
First is the edge game, while sakurai removed the ability to plank (kudos to him) and he also removed gliding and super crazy up b recoveries he made a bad choice with the edgehog design. Yes in this game you can edguard and hit oponents similar to melee and 64 in the edgegame, but it doesn't matter because when you want to gimp them by EDGEHOG you canttt!! so what happes, you end up living more than in brawl... you hear that more than in brawl. 200% and still living.
Matches of 2 stock that takes 5-6 mins and ends up in time over...!! Bad bad bad game design.

The good news is, all these can be fixed in an update from Nintendo, but there is another problem.. Different to the Capcom and Namco Community, the Nintendo fan community feel the must take it easy with Nintendo and not complain because we might scare them... Get real people, the reason USF4 and all the updates Street Fighter has got is because the community gave feedback and criticized the game that guess what we all are paying for. We are consumers and we have rights, so we should let them know.

If they update the game and fixed some bad call I think smash 4 will be a great awesome competitive game
Add more hitstun
give back the ability to edge hog
Make roll slower
Make the % like in previous smash games.



PLEASE WATCH THE VID BEFORE REPLYING

 

[Quillion]

I don't want to be insulting or be rude but sometimes I feel people are simply ******** or blinded so bad because they want to defend a game they like I guess because it has their favorites character, or in this game they can win and lets face it... we are all Nintendo Fanboys.

But this game will play very, very , very similar to brawl. There is no denying it.. It could even be worse because of some really really bad game design call from Sakurai.

So instead of talking blah blah blah like some people in this thread about 2nd or 3rd hit stun stage -.-

Ill go with facts... First look at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

So as you can see you can avoid the landing lag of the airdodge

Also you can cancel hit stun with airdodge, don't try to be blind and go to specifics that really don't matter... again let me educate you with proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PSYwAf_BXgc#t=410 DOUBLE AIR DODGE FTW

Here is another and you can see them baiting air dodge but still it doesn't matter... and these are not noobs these are good brawl players
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PSYwAf_BXgc#t=456

Now don't get me wrong I think (and it is what I have seen) that maybe the timing to DI and airdodge is more strict in this game hence why you see some combos ( usually d throw to a follow up aerial in low or 0% ) but these cant be really called "combos"...

I love and laugh when I see a smash 4 tournament and its like the commentators are begging for a bit of action that when a "combo"happens they freak out and get hype. The funny thing is the combo most likely is Dthrow + 2 aerials... or uptilt + uptilt + to an aerial... haha lame.

now to finish here is another video analysis I liked a lot I don't know whether what he says its true or not but to me makes a lot of sense. I am amazed it only has 43 views. The first part f the review is about the game in a very casual way so it might not be what we are looking for.. but the rest of the video I think he is on point and very neutral when he makes the review. Please watch the link it is set to begin when the important part of the review happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6lZa9j9qso#t=824

I believe smash 4 has the potential to be a better competitive game than brawl was. but as what it stands now it has two awful game design choices that make brawl look better sometimes.
First is the edge game, while sakurai removed the ability to plank (kudos to him) and he also removed gliding and super crazy up b recoveries he made a bad choice with the edgehog design. Yes in this game you can edguard and hit oponents similar to melee and 64 in the edgegame, but it doesn't matter because when you want to gimp them by EDGEHOG you canttt!! so what happes, you end up living more than in brawl... you hear that more than in brawl. 200% and still living.
Matches of 2 stock that takes 5-6 mins and ends up in time over...!! Bad bad bad game design.

The good news is, all these can be fixed in an update from Nintendo, but there is another problem.. Different to the Capcom and Namco Community, the Nintendo fan community feel the must take it easy with Nintendo and not complain because we might scare them... Get real people, the reason USF4 and all the updates Street Fighter has got is because the community gave feedback and criticized the game that guess what we all are paying for. We are consumers and we have rights, so we should let them know.

If they update the game and fixed some bad call I think smash 4 will be a great awesome competitive game
Add more hitstun
give back the ability to edge hog
Make roll slower
Make the % like in previous smash games.



PLEASE WATCH THE VID BEFORE REPLYING

Why do you say that the game will be Brawl 2.0 (shame on me for using an awful borderline-meme) when I'm having a hard time seeing the turtling that goes on in most Brawl tournament videos?

 

[Rajing Clue]

I don't want to be insulting or be rude but sometimes I feel people are simply ******** or blinded so bad because they want to defend a game they like I guess because it has their favorites character, or in this game they can win and lets face it... we are all Nintendo Fanboys.

But this game will play very, very , very similar to brawl. There is no denying it.. It could even be worse because of some really really bad game design call from Sakurai.

So instead of talking blah blah blah like some people in this thread about 2nd or 3rd hit stun stage -.-

Ill go with facts... First look at this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

So as you can see you can avoid the landing lag of the airdodge

Also you can cancel hit stun with airdodge, don't try to be blind and go to specifics that really don't matter... again let me educate you with proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PSYwAf_BXgc#t=410 DOUBLE AIR DODGE FTW

Here is another and you can see them baiting air dodge but still it doesn't matter... and these are not noobs these are good brawl players
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PSYwAf_BXgc#t=456

Now don't get me wrong I think (and it is what I have seen) that maybe the timing to DI and airdodge is more strict in this game hence why you see some combos ( usually d throw to a follow up aerial in low or 0% ) but these cant be really called "combos"...

I love and laugh when I see a smash 4 tournament and its like the commentators are begging for a bit of action that when a "combo"happens they freak out and get hype. The funny thing is the combo most likely is Dthrow + 2 aerials... or uptilt + uptilt + to an aerial... haha lame.

now to finish here is another video analysis I liked a lot I don't know whether what he says its true or not but to me makes a lot of sense. I am amazed it only has 43 views. The first part f the review is about the game in a very casual way so it might not be what we are looking for.. but the rest of the video I think he is on point and very neutral when he makes the review. Please watch the link it is set to begin when the important part of the review happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6lZa9j9qso#t=824

I believe smash 4 has the potential to be a better competitive game than brawl was. but as what it stands now it has two awful game design choices that make brawl look better sometimes.
First is the edge game, while sakurai removed the ability to plank (kudos to him) and he also removed gliding and super crazy up b recoveries he made a bad choice with the edgehog design. Yes in this game you can edguard and hit oponents similar to melee and 64 in the edgegame, but it doesn't matter because when you want to gimp them by EDGEHOG you canttt!! so what happes, you end up living more than in brawl... you hear that more than in brawl. 200% and still living.
Matches of 2 stock that takes 5-6 mins and ends up in time over...!! Bad bad bad game design.

The good news is, all these can be fixed in an update from Nintendo, but there is another problem.. Different to the Capcom and Namco Community, the Nintendo fan community feel the must take it easy with Nintendo and not complain because we might scare them... Get real people, the reason USF4 and all the updates Street Fighter has got is because the community gave feedback and criticized the game that guess what we all are paying for. We are consumers and we have rights, so we should let them know.

If they update the game and fixed some bad call I think smash 4 will be a great awesome competitive game
Add more hitstun
give back the ability to edge hog
Make roll slower
Make the % like in previous smash games.



PLEASE WATCH THE VID BEFORE REPLYING

You sound like a little kid so I won't be too harsh

No one at the competitive level is having trouble punishing rolls. Adding more hitstun will disrupt game balance. The edge mechanics are widely favored in this iteration due to more balanced recoveries from the entire cast. The % will stay the way it is.