Will Smash 4 be the "Street Fighter 4" of Smash Bros?

[B.A.M.]

Yes Smash 4 should be ideally like Street Fighter 4. If I were to compare Smash to Capcom games, 64 would be Marvel 3, Melee would be a more balanced Marvel 2, and Brawl would be a disgruntled SF4. This is all based on the spacing, general movement and combo systems they employ. Brawl is a very heavy read based game due to the lack of strong combos and far more footsie oriented while the previous iterations of Smash due to the speed are more about occupying space and quick movement; akin to the Marvel series ( of course there are levels of footsies in the previous smash games but its more about occupying space and threatening space with your movement). Smash 4 based on my play time at SDCC and my discussions with the homie Larry aka DEHF, is looking to be more like a KOF game to me ( you could argue KoF is always a better analogy to smash games than Capcom Fighters but we will leave that alone). Obviously KoF shares a ton of smash similarities as is; it has a multitude of hops, the capability of rolling, dashing and running with a footsie game involving ground normals and short hopping aerials.

For starters what makes this Smash 4 closer to KoF as well is its combo system, with the exception of crazy KoF13 combos, you have solid damage output thats not too overbearing. Heavies will seemingly be solid; a stark contrast to all Capcom Fighters with some notable exceptions (ex: O. Hawk, SFEX+A Zangief); for those of you that dont know heavies can be somewhat solid in KoF. While people have the idea the shield is very strong in this game cough: Samurai Panda ough, it actually has a gargantuan flaw thats more noticeable in this iteration of smash than any other; shield poke. As far as the E3 build is concerned shields not only break more easily ( note: GF Larrys guard break with Bowser Bomb) but they get poked more easily as well. This could potentially cause shield pressure to be even more dangerous similar to a high low mixup on someones block in other fighters or a more apparent guard meter which this shield mechanics have always tried to emulate is smash but never got it quite right ( yay more reasons to shield tilt aside from MK's nado!!!). Theres also seems to be more set combos in this Smash than any other iteration ( more moves have less knock back and more histun that seems to be less DIable than before, more attacks cause the pitfall effect etc.) Its speed isnt melee/ marvel level but its far more fast paced than Brawl/SF4. Theres more reversal moves ( a move to regain momentum otherwise known as a gtfo move. ex: DP aka Shoryuken, DK Donkey Punch due to its super armor etc.) and pokes to be safer on block than brawl but not melee/marvel safe. Jumping will definitely be more unforgiving in this iteration due to how aerials are currently and the lag suffered from air dodges, however it wont be like SF4 where jumping is a huge risk to take period. In otherwords just like KoF. Definitely more juggle attempts than brawl ( far more easier to aerial frame trap someone in Smash 4) Theres alot more comparisons to KoF, ( they originated for the fighting game genre the crossover concept by adding characters from their previous fighters in one large game) however I think I made it pretty clear my opinion on the matter.

I think Smash 4 is going to be solid fighter provided they tweak a few things ( such as some aerial landing lag) which from what I heard from some of my friends from the Invitational, they will.

 

[κomıc]

How is me saying Melee is more balanced than Brawl or 64 more laughable=???

It is more balanced than those games.

No it isn't. Look at the ratio of characters used between Brawl and Melee. I see more variety in use in Brawl than I see in Melee.

Melee is mostly dominated by Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, Peach, Ice Climbers(?) and Captain Falcon. Recently, I heard someone did really well with Yoshi. I'm glad it took them 10 years to finally do that and figure out his potential.

Where in Brawl, we've seen a massive switch up. Where Snake was in his own tier it is now taken up by Ice Climbers. ZSS climbed up and to my surprise, Wolf is in the C-D range. I've attended tournaments myself and watched people play between Brawl and Melee and I saw more variety in Brawl than I did in Melee.

And Smash 64? Uhm, isn't that the most balanced of all Smash Bros games so far? I refuse to believe Melee is most balanced compared to even that game.

 

[<π]

@ Johnknight1 As far as I can tell (I've actually been in GA for a couple of years now) The brawl scene has kind of died off in FL as well. I think people still enjoy the game and play friendlies/host fests. But no one is passionate enough to try and host tournaments any more.

The developers of project m are doing a lot of work. I don't have much interest in the game but I am very impressed with how well they have been executing on the marketing end. (CEO exclusive stages, Partnership with smash boards, etc.)

Anyone of the other 9 million brawl mods could of had this success if the developers had the time resources and passion the Project M team does, but none of them even really scratched the surface of what project M is doing now and that makes its successes that much more admirable.

 

[Johnknight1]

No it isn't. Look at the ratio of characters used between Brawl and Melee. I see more variety in use in Brawl than I see an Melee.

In tournaments=???

No.

Not even close.

You obviously didn't read where I said "the top 8 for Melee at EVO 2013 and EVO 2014 used 9 characters in the top 8." Outside of top 8 at EVO 2013 and 2014 those same top 4 played at least 16 characters.

Meanwhile, the major with the least character variety for Melee, APEX 2014, featured only 5 characters in Melee in top 8. It conversely featured the same number of characters in Brawl, despite Brawl having 12 (13 if you count Shelda) more characters to choose from.

Also, consider that in Brawl 1 character wins over half the tournaments. In Melee, there is nothing close to that, especially considering top players like PPMD and M2K (and kinda Armada and even Mango) have "dual mains".

Melee is mostly dominated by Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, Peach, Ice Climbers(?) and Captain Falcon. Recently, I heard someone did really well with Yoshi. I'm glad it took then 10 years to finally do that and figure out his potential.

LOL.

For starters, you left off Jigglypuff. Mango, a former puff main, won the last 2 EVO's, also dominated Melee for several years in Melee with puff. HBox, a current puff main, came in 3rd and 2nd at EVO 2013 and 2014 respectively, and has placed similarly high in many tournaments for nearly half a decade.

You also forgot Dr. Mario and Pikachu, both of which had mains of said characters play them in the last 2 EVOs that made it to top 8. You also forget that Samus players have made top 8 in tournaments since the dawn of time (Wes, HugS, and now Plup), and that people pull out Young Link as a Jigglypuff counter (namely Armada).

Your statement on aMSa shows how lacking you are in information on the game, because he's done that for a year. It shows you truly know nothing about the competitive Melee scene right now, and yet, you feel the need to judge the tiers and whatnot based on misinformation.

Brawl isn't as Meta Knight-centric as everyone thinks, but generally, there's only about 6 or so characters that can win tournaments, and Meta Knight still wins roughly half of all major Brawl tournaments. It also doesn't help that the top 3 of Brawl make most of the roster irrelevant.

And Smash 64? Uhm, isn't that the most balanced of all Smash Bros games so far?

If you knew anything about Smash 64, you would know this is pure and utter crap.

This just highlights you are making up stuff and are talking out of your butt.

64 is the most broken game balance-wise.

Pikachu is not played by the top players because they feel it's "too broken". It's like a de facto ban. In such a combo heavy game, Pikachu can cancel combos. It also has the best combos, the best defense, the best recovery, does some of the most damage, has the 2nd best projectile, and is nearly the best character at everything.

The only reason it appears "balanced" is Isai is so much better than everyone else that he can beat them with a mid tier character.

I refuse to believe Melee is most balanced compared to even that game.

I can tell that you refuse to use any sort of real evidence based on this.

 

[pizzapie7]

That's not how you're supposed to look at things.

According to... you?

And you saying the roster is the most balanced is laughable.

That's not all that farfetched () of an opinion though. I'd agree with him.

No it isn't. Look at the ratio of characters used between Brawl and Melee. I see more variety in use in Brawl than I see in Melee.

Melee is mostly dominated by Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, Peach, Ice Climbers(?) and Captain Falcon. Recently, I heard someone did really well with Yoshi. I'm glad it took them 10 years to finally do that and figure out his potential.

Where in Brawl, we've seen a massive switch up. Where Snake was in his own tier it is now taken up by Ice Climbers. ZSS climbed up and to my surprise, Wolf is in the C-D range. I've attended tournaments myself and watched people play between Brawl and Melee and I saw more variety in Brawl than I did in Melee.

And Smash 64? Uhm, isn't that the most balanced of all Smash Bros games so far? I refuse to believe Melee is most balanced compared to even that game.

Jigglypuff was considered barely top ten, the jumped into the top 3, now she's 5. Pikachu has climbed like crazy. I don't see what you're arguing. You could say Melee's top is stable, but it's also both more balanced and wider. The middle of Brawl's cast is more balanced, but Brawl is absolutely dominated by the few at the top. It really comes down to which type of imbalance that you prefer. But saying Brawl is objectively more balanced than Melee when Meta Knight exists is ****ing laughable.

And 64 is ****ing broken. Pikachu is almost Meta Knight levels of stupid.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Combine the changes in PAL and later NTSC versions along with some new tweaks and give it online play and release it as a new remastered edition. That'd work, I think.

@SpeedBoost I don't think we're ever going to achieve being one community. Too much hate over stupid **** and too much thinking you're a better person because of the Smash game you play. There are very clear lines that are drawn.

I doubt they would do that, but for a straight virtual console re-release I wonder what version would get released in the US.

 

[Johnknight1]

And 64 is ****ing broken. Pikachu is almost Meta Knight levels of stupid.

Pikachu IMO is far more broken then Meta Knight. Literally Pikachu is best or 2nd best at every single thing in 64.

In order for Meta Knight in Brawl to be as broken as Pikachu in Smash 64 it would need to have about as much range as Olimar and a grabs game comparable to that of the Ice Climbers.

 

[<π]

if melee is released on vitual console it won't be for a long long time. they aren't going to set up competition with smash 4 right now. I HIGHLY doubt they will put in the time or effort to make online play viable. They haven't done it with any virtual console other game.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Street Fighter 4- Don't jump

I know I was being sarcastic.
Brawl's decline had everything to do with how the community handled the game, and very little to do with the game itself. Just like there was a rift between melee and brawl there were several rifts WITHIN the brawl community. Pro MK vs Anti MK, Pro broad stage list vs Small Stage list, tier battles, Politics of the BBR vs the common people. The game itself was competitively sound, it's community dragged it to the ground.
I don't mean to belittle @Mensrea but you can look at his join date and understand that he isn't speaking from experience. At best he is telling people what he heard, at worst he is just guessing. Either way he wasn't a part of the brawl community.

What does join date have to do with anything? You got me beat by a year and I completely disagree with you yet im the closest to your join date in this thread. I didn't want to be a part of the brawl community either. In fact I'm thinking about recording a video of me lighting my copy on fire.

 

[Johnknight1]

Melee on Virtual Console would fix the input problem pretty fast.

Copy and paste this for 64 and Brawl.

I don't get why Nintendo wouldn't release a "Smash Trilogy" for the WiiU as a digital and retail release (for $60 or $70).
[collapse="They could do the following:"]-Make the games 1080p 60fps
-Speed up loading times for each game (well mostly Brawl).
-Fix some frame drops problems. Fountain of Dreams, Mute City, Big Blue, and Yoshi's Story (with the Shy Guy) immediately come to mind.
-Fix up some glitches. The Black Hole glitch in Melee, the Shine Gate glitch in Brawl, a few glitches on Dreamland in 64 and Melee, the edges on Battlefield in Melee and Lylat Cruise in Brawl, etc. are all glitches and issues I would fix.
-Make it to where you can play any release of each game. NTSC-U, NTSC-J, PAL, and each individual release.
-Remove random tripping and the stamina system from the Pokémon Trainer in Brawl, or at least make it an option.
-Have it to where you can start as and play as each of the individual Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon (as well as stay them when you get KO'd). Obviously the down B would still work the same way.
-Give Brawl 5 item frequency options "Very Low/Low/Medium/High/Very High" like 64 and Melee, not just 1.
-Give 64 and Melee a "My Music" frequency setting like Brawl had.
-Support imported music for each game.
-Add previously unplayable stages to the stage select screen. In 64, Battlefield, Final Destination, and Metal Caverns come to mind. In Melee, mostly those awful trophy stages, lol. In Brawl, various SSE locals (namely the Stadium and Dark Subspace areas), the Wifi Waiting Room come to mind.
-Maybe make a "new edition" for each game where the bottom tiers are stronger in each game. You know, like in 64 Luigi and Samus, in Melee Kirby and Bowser, and in Brawl, Link and
-Fix the hitstun issues with Lucas and Ness in Brawl, and other such gameplay issues that shouldn't exist. Making it an option would be preferred.
-Have an option to "fix" Brawl's edge grab invincibility to be more reasonable.
-Remove planking entirely.
-Haven an option to fix the Mewtwo Melee forward B Battlefield glitch, haha. I want it to be an option because it's still fun to abuse, but it's honestly still cheap!
-Add more "Past Stages" in Melee and Brawl.[/collapse]
Not just would this make smash fans happy, it would make many of them who wouldn't get a WiiU for Smash WiiU would have to get it, and it would increase Smash fan customer loyalty to Nintendo.

Plus it would make a lot of money.

And if anyone worries about it "competing" with Smash 4, if Smash 4 is good, people can play it and other Smash games. M2K can be a top dog in Melee and Brawl, and Zero and Fiction aren't too far behind that. Wizzrobe does it amazingly well.

Oh right the whole Melee has different version in Europe and the US issue...whoops.

Just make it to where you can play as any and all release of each game for re-release and you're golden.

 

[pizzapie7]

Pikachu IMO is far more broken then Meta Knight. Literally Pikachu is best or 2nd best at every single thing in 64.

In order for Meta Knight in Brawl to be as broken as Pikachu in Smash 64 it would need to have about as much range as Olimar and a grabs game comparable to that of the Ice Climbers.

Can't say I'm too versed in 64. That's baffling, honestly.

I didn't want to be a part of the brawl community either. In fact I'm thinking about recording a video of me lighting my copy on fire.

I'd definitely watch that many times.

 

[Terotrous]

Street Fighter 4- Don't jump

Only with some characters in some situations. Characters like Yun, C.Viper, Akuma, and Rufus jump constantly.

 

[Johnknight1]

Can't say I'm too versed in 64. That's baffling, honestly.

Yeah, but seeing as how Pikachu is de facto banned by the top players (sans when they face Isai, which is actually interesting, lol!), it makes for a lot more interesting Smash 64 tournaments.

It helped make APEX 2014 for Samsh 64 freaking Godlike.

Still, these imbalances don't stop there.

For instance:
-Luigi is to Mario in smash 64 what Roy is to Marth in Melee.
-Fox (the tied 2nd best character on the tiers with Kirby) has a 10-0 match up with DK where he can just about infinite combo DK without any repercussion.
-Fox can triple laser.
-Pikachu can combo basically with every move, haha!
-Isai is too good. I once faced him with 2 other people in a 8 stock match IRL and he 8 stock'd us.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can't say I'm too versed in 64. That's baffling, honestly.


I'd definitely watch that many times.

• A Blue matchup refers to a matchup better than 60 40 (Hard Counter)
• A Green matchup refers to a 60 40 matchup (Soft Counter)
• A Yellow matchup refers to a 55 to 45, 50 to 50, or 45 55 matchup, usually depending on the stage (Even)
• An Orange matchup refers to a 40 60 matchup (Soft Countered)
• A Red matchup refers to a matchup worse than 40 60 (Hard Countered)

This is more or less what the consensus is on Pikachu's match-ups. He doesn't lose to anyone and beating everyone at least 6:4.

He's at least on par with MK, maybe even worse.

Why is it hard to beleive? Because no one really is on Isai's level and no one invests in smash 64 outside of online.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Melee on Virtual Console would fix the input problem pretty fast.

Oh right the whole Melee has different version in Europe and the US issue...whoops.

The US community would probably refuse to play the PAL version of Melee with all of its changes because 'It's not Melee'.

I'm actually being totally serious. The developers have touted the PAL version as the definitive version of Melee but the competitive community wouldn't dare move on to a different build. It's really symbolic of just how pretentious the community can be, the Melee community won't even move on to Melee.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Brawl pretty much is SF3 culturally though while Melee fills the cultural role of SF2. SF3 was hated by an awful lot of SF players for being so different from its predecessors even while being a legitimately successful competitive game in its own right, and it was only SF4 that was a lot more similar to SF2 while still moving things forward in a lot of ways that brought everyone together. So yeah, smash 4 is likely to be like SF4, but I don't think you constructed the analogy correctly.

I actually like 3rd strike more than any street fighter game. If Brawl was anything like 3rd strike it would be exciting.

 

[josh bones]

How is me saying Melee is more balanced than Brawl or 64 more laughable=???

It is more balanced than those games.

Maybe if you actually played it or watched it you'd know that instead of rely on absolutely no logic as "proof" you are right.

Saying it's more balaned than brawl is a fact.
Saying it's more balanced than 64 is insane

 

[κomıc]

According to... you?

No. According to life. You don't look at things with Rose Tinted glasses. And can I make it any more clear- I'm not talking from a "competitive" stand point. I'm speaking from a different perspective than what has been proposed. What are we going to do? Pretend that the game wasn't rushed out to meet the launch of Gamecube? Are we seriously going to dismiss the facts that are sitting right in front of us? Didn't the game have a hellish development cycle in under 13 months? Didn't Sakurai imply that Melee wasn't the game he wanted it to be? Again, it's the 7 year hypnosis and I see right through it.

That's not all that farfetched () of an opinion though. I'd agree with him.

Fair enough. And I disagree.

Jigglypuff was considered barely top ten, the jumped into the top 3, now she's 5. Pikachu has climbed like crazy. I don't see what you're arguing. You could say Melee's top is stable, but it's also both more balanced and wider. The middle of Brawl's cast is more balanced, but Brawl is absolutely dominated by the few at the top. It really comes down to which type of imbalance that you prefer. But saying Brawl is objectively more balanced than Melee when Meta Knight exists is ****ing laughable.

What's laughable is that people still have an issue against Metaknight when everyone by now should know the match-up and granted, they do. Look at Salem and how he destroyed M2k with Zero Suit Samus. MK isn't this devilish unstoppable machine that you try to paint the character as. He really isn't threatning at this point in time when people have come up with tactics to combat the poor Grandpa Kirby.

And 64 is ****ing broken. Pikachu is almost Meta Knight levels of stupid.

That is such a hyperbolic statement if I knew one. I heard that Kirby and Pikachu share some disjointed hitboxes but because of the small cast and how the mechanics works, SSB64 is the most balanced.

In tournaments=???

No.

Not even close.

You obviously didn't read where I said "the top 8 for Melee at EVO 2013 and EVO 2014 used 9 characters in the top 8." Outside of top 8 at EVO 2013 and 2014 those same top 4 played at least 16 characters.

Meanwhile, the major with the least character variety for Melee, APEX 2014, featured only 5 characters in Melee in top 8. It conversely featured the same number of characters in Brawl, despite Brawl having 12 (13 if you count Shelda) more characters to choose from.

Also, consider that in Brawl 1 character wins over half the tournaments. In Melee, there is nothing close to that, especially considering top players like PPMD and M2K (and kinda Armada and even Mango) have "dual mains".

LOL.

For starters, you left off Jigglypuff. Mango, a former puff main, won the last 2 EVO's, also dominated Melee for several years in Melee with puff. HBox, a current puff main, came in 3rd and 2nd at EVO 2013 and 2014 respectively, and has placed similarly high in many tournaments for nearly half a decade.

You also forgot Dr. Mario and Pikachu, both of which had mains of said characters play them in the last 2 EVOs that made it to top 8. You also forget that Samus players have made top 8 in tournaments since the dawn of time (Wes, HugS, and now Plup), and that people pull out Young Link as a Jigglypuff counter (namely Armada).

Your statement on aMSa shows how lacking you are in information on the game, because he's done that for a year. It shows you truly know nothing about the competitive Melee scene right now, and yet, you feel the need to judge the tiers and whatnot based on misinformation.

Brawl isn't as Meta Knight-centric as everyone thinks, but generally, there's only about 6 or so characters that can win tournaments, and Meta Knight still wins roughly half of all major Brawl tournaments. It also doesn't help that the top 3 of Brawl make most of the roster irrelevant.

If you knew anything about Smash 64, you would know this is pure and utter crap.

This just highlights you are making up stuff and are talking out of your butt.

64 is the most broken game balance-wise.

Pikachu is not played by the top players because they feel it's "too broken". It's like a de facto ban. In such a combo heavy game, Pikachu can cancel combos. It also has the best combos, the best defense, the best recovery, does some of the most damage, has the 2nd best projectile, and is nearly the best character at everything.

The only reason it appears "balanced" is Isai is so much better than everyone else that he can beat them with a mid tier character.

I can tell that you refuse to use any sort of real evidence based on this.

I'm sorry I don't spend 100 hours learning a launch title that came out in 2001 when by today's standards, Melee's controls would be trashed for being poor in quality. I could have saved the professionals time invested by attending my "Understanding Game Development" course. Again, you're going off on the competitive side again which is forcing me to speak on something I'm not to keen on or care enough to delve into.

And looking at the list, I see 6 characters in Melee and in Brawl, I see 6 characters making the top 10 list. I don't know why you're trying to fluff it up as if there's this HUGE discrepancy in balance between the two games.

 

[otter]

Brawl pretty much is SF3 culturally though while Melee fills the cultural role of SF2. SF3 was hated by an awful lot of SF players for being so different from its predecessors even while being a legitimately successful competitive game in its own right, and it was only SF4 that was a lot more similar to SF2 while still moving things forward in a lot of ways that brought everyone together. So yeah, smash 4 is likely to be like SF4, but I don't think you constructed the analogy correctly.

No. Yoshinori Ono calls SF3 the logical conclusion of fighting games, and most SF players agree. It's definately the Melee in this comparison.

Smash 4 could be SF4 in the sense that it might be good enough for everyone to tolerate. To this day, nobody prefers SF4 unless they started with it.

 

[Johnknight1]

• A Blue matchup refers to a matchup better than 60 40 (Hard Counter)
• A Green matchup refers to a 60 40 matchup (Soft Counter)
• A Yellow matchup refers to a 55 to 45, 50 to 50, or 45 55 matchup, usually depending on the stage (Even)
• An Orange matchup refers to a 40 60 matchup (Soft Countered)
• A Red matchup refers to a matchup worse than 40 60 (Hard Countered)

This is more or less what the consensus is on Pikachu's match-ups. He doesn't lose to anyone and beating everyone at least 6:4.

He's at least on par with MK, maybe even worse.

Why is it hard to beleive? Because no one really is on Isai's level and no one invests in smash 64 outside of online.

Saying it's more balaned than brawl is a fact.
Saying it's more balanced than 64 is insane

Look at that above chart.

Pikachu has at least a 60:40 match up in it's favor against EVERY CHARACTER!!!

That means against every character but another Pikachu, that Pikachu should win, and that Pikachu is at worst a "soft counter" TO THE ENTIRE CAST!!!!

 

[josh bones]

Look at that above chart.

Pikachu has at least a 60:40 match up in it's favor against EVERY CHARACTER!!!

That means against every character but another Pikachu, that Pikachu should win, and that Pikachu is at worst a "soft counter" TO THE ENTIRE CAST!!!!

...Never knew that, melee is the most balanced

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

No. Yoshinori Ono calls SF3 the logical conclusion of fighting games, and most SF players agree. It's definately the Melee in this comparison.

Smash 4 could be SF4 in the sense that it might be good enough for everyone to tolerate. To this day, nobody prefers SF4 unless they started with it.

I'm sorry, but I strongly feel you're just completely wrong here. I don't think this is a good topic for us to have a lengthy debate on since it's not really important to the future of smash 4 if we agree on this, but SF3 was definitely super hated when it was new and even to this day gets a lot less love than SF2. I'd just point you to last year's EVO stream and how Street Fighter 2 got a slot while Street Fighter 3 got nothing as conclusive evidence of the relative popularity to this day, and then you have to remember that SF3 is now old and irrelevant so there is no longer reason to hate on it anymore. I can pretty much guarantee though that if Capcom announced SF5 coming out with the parry system brought back, most of the classic SF2 characters cut, and a big focus on the characters introduced in SF3 that the SF community would by and large be very, very unhappy. Do you believe there would be a different response?

 

[Johnknight1]

The US community would probably refuse to play the PAL version of Melee with all of its changes because 'It's not Melee'.

I'm actually being totally serious. The developers have touted the PAL version as the definitive version of Melee but the competitive community wouldn't dare move on to a different build. It's really symbolic of just how pretentious the community can be, the Melee community won't even move on to Melee.

No, the reason the US players don't play PAL is simple.
1. A lot of the characters got nerfed.
2. It's less available.
3. A lot of the characters not nerfed.

Seriously, the following characters got some sort of overall nerf:
-Bowser (24th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Captain Falcon (7th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Falco (2nd on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Fox (1st on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Ganondorf (12th on the NTSC-U tier list, although if you think he's better than Samus, Mario, and Yoshi you're nuts)
-Ice Climbers (8th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Jigglypuff (5th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Link (16th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Mario (14th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Marth (4th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Mewtwo (21st on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Mr. Game & Watch (22nd on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Peach (6th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Samus (11th on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Sheik (3rd on the NTSC-U tier list)
-Yoshi (18th on the NTSC-U tier list, although if you think Yoshi is that bad, you're nuts)
-Young Link (17th on the NTSC-U tier list)

So literally they nerfed every character from 1st through 8th on the tier list, excludes 9th and 10th, and they nerfed 11th-16th, slightly buffed 17th (it was Donkey Kong, for whom they fixed the charged punch glitch fix), nerfed 18th, excluded 19th and 20th, nerfed 21st and 22nd, excluded 23rd, nerfed 24th, excluded 25th, and buffed 26th.

So in the end they would up basically hurting the game more than helping, and taking away plenty of offense, specifically from say 6th-16th on the tier list (as well as Yoshi at 18th).

===

Also, if the Brawl development team were so good, then how come during the E3 Media Q&A Sakurai basically said "they did all the balancing" while he's doing balancing this time and with 64 and Melee, inferring they are the problem with Brawl's balancing=???

(to further back this point, Game Arts isn't remotely involved with Smash 4's development, and they can't get a job after that disaster TMNT Smash Up smash clone game they developed for Ubisoft)

 

[topspin1617]

Honestly the debate is pointless... none of the first 3 Smashes are particularly well-balanced. Each has a very small cast of viable characters (I could be wrong I guess, but just counting how many characters were used at Evo wouldn't convince me as much as, say, usage %s).

On the other hand, the demo for Smash 4 looks quite well-balanced so far. Of course it's just a demo etc. etc., but I think if they can get it right in the demo, then my hopes for the full release are high.

 

[otter]

I'm sorry, but I strongly feel you're just completely wrong here. I don't think this is a good topic for us to have a lengthy debate on since it's not really important to the future of smash 4 if we agree on this, but SF3 was definitely super hated when it was new and even to this day gets a lot less love than SF2. I'd just point you to last year's EVO stream and how Street Fighter 2 got a slot while Street Fighter 3 got nothing as conclusive evidence of the relative popularity to this day, and then you have to remember that SF3 is now old and irrelevant so there is no longer reason to hate on it anymore. I can pretty much guarantee though that if Capcom announced SF5 coming out with the parry system brought back, most of the classic SF2 characters cut, and a big focus on the characters introduced in SF3 that the SF community would by and large be very, very unhappy. Do you believe there would be a different response?

Yes I do. The competitive scene was at its peak during 3s and all of the legendary Japanese players prefer it.

What you meant to say is that general gamers would be unhappy. You kind of blew your cover by suggesting players care about cast choices. The SF community would be thrilled.

The reason SF3 isn't played at modern tournaments is because it's too demanding to be played on the side (wow like melee once again) and everyone has kind of agreed to play sf4 as the main game.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

No, the reason the US players don't play PAL is simple.
1. A lot of the characters got nerfed.
2. It's less available.
3. A lot of the characters not nerfed.

1. Yes, that's what happens when characters have broken/imbalanced mechanics.

2. True, but we're talking about the event that it would be released to the Wii U virtual console...as the PAL version, so in this hypothetical it's rarity to Americans is irrelevant.

3. Yes, that's what happens when characters have broken/imbalanced mechanics.

Don't be such a tier list slave. Tier lists are formed based on tournament results. All it takes is the right player with the right motivation to make a character good where nobody thought was possible (Yoshi for example).

 

[Johnknight1]

That is such a hyperbolic statement if I knew one. I heard that Kirby and Pikachu share some disjointed hitboxes but because of the small cast and how the mechanics works, SSB64 is the most balanced.

LOL NO! Pikachu has a 60:40 match up against the the 2nd-8th ranked characters (that means Pikachu "soft counters" said characters), whereas from 9th-12th it has a better than 60:40 match up (that means Pikachu "hard counters" said characters).

For comparisons' sake, according to the insanely outdated Melee dealio for Fox, Fox has 3 "even" match ups, and 6 match ups that are in his "slight advantage".

And if you want to talk 64, there's a clear tier system, and it goes like this:
-Pikachu destroys the entire roster and is de facto (meaning "as a matter of fact") banned by and large by top players (except when facing Isai or doing mirror matches).
-Kirby and Fox are clearly slated in the next tier by themselves. They firmly beat a good share of the cast. Fox even has the vaunted 10:0 match up against Donkey Kong.
-Captain Falcon and Mario are next in the tier, and according to some (there's a good sized split) Yoshi is with them at well. They have a reasonable to crazy advantage over the next tier.
-Yoshi is generally seen as either it's own semi-tier, up with the tier above on the bottom, or atop the tier below.
-Yoshi (sometimes), Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, and Ness inhabit the next tier.
-Link, Samus, and Luigi live on the bottom tier.

I'm sorry I don't spend 100 hours learning a launch title that came out in 2001 when by today's standards, Melee's controls would be trashed for being poor in quality.

First off, stop being a straight jerk. Don't insult Melee just to piss people off, and stop being a feeble minded hater.

Second off, don't ever diss players by inferring that playing over 100 hours of a game they enjoy is bad.

Third off, this statement proved no purpose in your statement.

I could have saved the professionals time invested by attending my "Understanding Game Development" course.

The problem here is you're:
1. You're not a Game Developer.
2. They generally call themselves "game designers", and the smashers I know that are game designers do love Melee and it's game design.
3. Game Design is objective to a large degree.
4. Your opinion is not "more right" than mine just because you merely say so.
5. You have no experience in the field, neither stated nor expressed.
6. You haven't invested any time into the game, therefore you don't know much about the game design.
7. You're just being a troll.
8. Again, you are trying to infer that playing Melee is bad, and competitive Melee players are bad.

Again, you're going off on the competitive side again which is forcing me to speak on something I'm not to keen on or care enough to delve into.

Well if you are into your "game development", don't you have to cover the whole spectrum=???

Because currently your spectrum goes from "oh the controls" to "oh the controlllllssss!!!"

And looking at the list, I see 6 characters in Melee and in Brawl, I see 6 characters making the top 10 list. I don't know why you're trying to fluff it up as if there's this HUGE discrepancy in balance between the two games.

Because I stated that tournament had the least diversity for a Melee tournament, and it's not even close.

The 2 biggest Melee tournaments had 12 different players make top 8, and they played at least 15 characters at EVO those 2 years, including 11 characters in top 8.

Sorry, but if you actually read my point, you'd understand it. Now if you'd use proof that you researched, maybe you'd have a point, rather than just screaming "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!!" despite your clear lack of competitive knowledge (which is okay to lack knowledge in; just ask about it).

 

[Takehiko]

-

I wanted to pust a slow clap gif, but it won't link.

Thank you so much for saying what has been in mind for months. I too was part of the people who came from SF3 and felt that even the walk speed of Ryu was slow, but then I put in time on it, and I worked at it, and it become one of my most enjoyed games. I think what the SF players figured out was, there will always be a better game alive in any series. Personally, I love Tekken 3. But what is best to remember is that the future comes and things will be different and sometimes its good, and sometimes its bad. Imagine all of the SF3 players who've practiced hours parrying just to lose it.

But I feel like Smash4 will become like SFs story.I have hope.

 

[Johnknight1]

1. Yes, that's what happens when characters have broken/imbalanced mechanics.

How does Melee have remotely "broken" characters when the top 8 at EVO 2014 play 10 different characters and we saw no dittos in Top 8=???

Like how=???

That's not even remotely possible.

No one character just destroys all the others.

The 5 Melee Gods (Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, PPMD, and Armada) main 5 different characters.

They play at the very least a total of 7 different characters seriously in high profile tournaments=???

And how are the mechanics broken if the game rewards offense for being smart and defense for being smart=???

2. True, but we're talking about the event that it would be released to the Wii U virtual console...as the PAL version, so in this hypothetical it's rarity to Americans is irrelevant.

Well they'd be smart to have all the versions in it, thus NTSC-U 1.02 (or 1.01) would be better off, or at least some modified version that included the lower tier buffs of each version (don't nerf the top, buff the bottom).

Don't be such a tier list slave. Tier lists are formed based on tournament results. All it takes is the right player with the right motivation to make a character good where nobody thought was possible (Yoshi for example).

I don't remotely agree with the Melee tier list. My personal tier list is drastically different after the top 4 (of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth).

I'd put Peach at 5, Ice Climbers at 6, Jigglypuff at 7, Pikachu at 8, Captain Falcon at 9, Dr. Mario at 10, Mario at 11 (huge divide), Samus at 12, Luigi at 13, Yoshi at 14, Ganondorf at 15, Young Link 16, Link at 17, DK at 18, Mewtwo at 19, Pichu at 20, Mr. G&W at 21, Zelda at 22, Roy at 23, Bowser at 24, Ness at 25, and Pikachu at 26.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

How does Melee have remotely "broken" characters when the top 8 at EVO 2014 play 10 different characters and we saw no dittos in Top 8=???

Like how=???

That's not even remotely possible.

No one character just destroys all the others.

The 5 Melee Gods (Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, PPMD, and Armada) main 5 different characters.

They play at the very least a total of 7 different characters seriously in high profile tournaments=???

And how are the mechanics broken if the game rewards offense for being smart and defense for being smart=???

Well they'd be smart to have all the versions in it, thus NTSC-U 1.02 (or 1.01) would be better off, or at least some modified version that included the lower tier buffs of each version (don't nerf the top, buff the bottom).

I don't remotely agree with the Melee tier list. My personal tier list is drastically different after the top 4 (of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth).

I'd put Peach at 5, Ice Climbers at 6, Jigglypuff at 7, Pikachu at 8, Captain Falcon at 9, Dr. Mario at 10, Mario at 11 (huge divide), Samus at 12, Luigi at 13, Yoshi at 14, Ganondorf at 15, Young Link 16, Link at 17, DK at 18, Mewtwo at 19, Pichu at 20, Mr. G&W at 21, Zelda at 22, Roy at 23, Bowser at 24, Ness at 25, and Pikachu at 26.

I didn't say anything in Melee is broken specifically I was just saying that changes tend to happen when something is broken or imbalanced, in this case it's safe to assume "imbalance" was the appropriate term but I was merely defining the intention behind changing things in the first place, when it comes to any game.

Also...if you're going to use tournament results as the basis for everything then we should also start calling ZSS the most broken character in Brawl.

Hilariously, Fox actually out-%'s MetaKnight in terms of usage at tournaments too in comparison to their respective games roster.

None of this is actually very important, which is my point. Tournament results are not definitive of balance. They can certainly be a helpful indicator, but nothing more, sorry.

 

[κomıc]

LOL NO! Pikachu has a 60:40 match up against the the 2nd-8th ranked characters (that means Pikachu "soft counters" said characters), whereas from 9th-12th it has a better than 60:40 match up (that means Pikachu "hard counters" said characters).

For comparisons' sake, according to the insanely outdated Melee dealio for Fox, Fox has 3 "even" match ups, and 6 match ups that are in his "slight advantage".

And if you want to talk 64, there's a clear tier system, and it goes like this:
-Pikachu destroys the entire roster and is de facto (meaning "as a matter of fact") banned by and large by top players (except when facing Isai or doing mirror matches).
-Kirby and Fox are clearly slated in the next tier by themselves. They firmly beat a good share of the cast. Fox even has the vaunted 10:0 match up against Donkey Kong.
-Captain Falcon and Mario are next in the tier, and according to some (there's a good sized split) Yoshi is with them at well. They have a reasonable to crazy advantage over the next tier.
-Yoshi is generally seen as either it's own semi-tier, up with the tier above on the bottom, or atop the tier below.
-Yoshi (sometimes), Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, and Ness inhabit the next tier.
-Link, Samus, and Luigi live on the bottom tier.

First off, stop being a straight jerk. Don't insult Melee just to piss people off, and stop being a feeble minded hater.

Second off, don't ever diss players by inferring that playing over 100 hours of a game they enjoy is bad.

Third off, this statement proved no purpose in your statement.

The problem here is you're:
1. You're not a Game Developer.
2. They generally call themselves "game designers", and the smashers I know that are game designers do love Melee and it's game design.
3. Game Design is objective to a large degree.
4. Your opinion is not "more right" than mine just because you merely say so.
5. You have no experience in the field, neither stated nor expressed.
6. You haven't invested any time into the game, therefore you don't know much about the game design.
7. You're just being a troll.
8. Again, you are trying to infer that playing Melee is bad, and competitive Melee players are bad.

Well if you are into your "game development", don't you have to cover the whole spectrum=???

Because currently your spectrum goes from "oh the controls" to "oh the controlllllssss!!!"

Because I stated that tournament had the least diversity for a Melee tournament, and it's not even close.

The 2 biggest Melee tournaments had 12 different players make top 8, and they played at least 15 characters at EVO those 2 years, including 11 characters in top 8.

Sorry, but if you actually read my point, you'd understand it. Now if you'd use proof that you researched, maybe you'd have a point, rather than just screaming "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!!!" despite your clear lack of competitive knowledge (which is okay to lack knowledge in; just ask about it).

I'm not hating on Melee. What is there to hate? And I'm glad you're taking my rhetoric so seriously. As a matter of fact, I love all Smash Bros games. I just like one more than the other.

I'm pretty much done speaking to you at this point. I'm in no way trying to convince you because I really don't care. All I said was "Melee is clunky, unpolished (which it is true, read the interviews with Sakurai) and was rushed out to launch." Was it not supposed to showcase the Gamecube's graphical prowess to impress people? Albeit, the intro was an FMV and they actually had to hire an outside studio to create the amazing footage. I hope an original intro like that makes it into Smash 4 vs the lazy and slapdash intro Brawl had copying and pasting scenes from the SSE.

Also, EVO is a joke. It is advocating this detestable division in the community that is unnecessary. I really have no respect for the people in charge of that event. It is pretty disgusting how they're disregarding a group of people just because they feel it is appropriate to turn their nose up on a game that is similar but not exactly the same. If it doesn't bring Smash 4 into the fold for petty reasons or "It isn't like Melee!" or "It's too like Brawl", then I won't watch their streams or support them. I think you yourself play a role in this divide. Nothing is ever going to change and I would have hoped by this time in 2014 something would have. I guess we are going to be back to square one here.

As for my knowledge in Game Development, I was temporarily studying for it in school but decided to go more into the design side of things. Also, I do a lot of reading on the gaming industry and have a wider view point that what you're putting forth, I'm afraid to say. In any case, I have nothing to prove to you just as you having nothing to prove to me.

PS: I'm not trolling. You would know if I am trolling. Just because you disagree with my sentiments doesn't mean you should be labeling people as trolls. Get real.

EDIT: And let me say one more thing: I'm not going back to Melee not just because of the clunky controls. I'm not going back to it because my two favorite characters, Kirby and Ness, don't have a slight chance in competitive play. And I've played Melee for 7 years and didn't have a problem with the controls because there was nothing to compare it to nor was there a newer refined Smash Bros game.

I'm not going to play the game using a character I'm not too much of a fan of. I pick characters I genuinely like and frankly, Brawl, Project M and evidently Smash 4 gets it right for me. To me, Smash Bros is a FAN SERVICE first and a competitive game last. And obviously, Melee is crap when it is missing the divine Lady Palutena. It lost to Smash 4 by default


But in all seriousness, for me it is about the characters, stages and content. Don't get wrong, I can snatch weaves and take stocks and hold my own. Don't get it twisted.

But I refuse to look at any video game wearing rose tinted glasses. When criticism is due, then speak on it. At the end of the day, all Smash Bros games are unbalanced and there's never going to be a true balance in games where competitive play is viable. It's been like that for years and there have been some good progress but there is probably never going to be a game balanced the way we would like for it to be.

And I'm sure everyone would love to be wrong on that some day.

 

[Johnknight1]

All I said was "Melee is clunky, unpolished (which it is true, read the interviews with Sakurai) and was rushed out to launch."

If Sakurai always spoke the truth, then Brawl would have a low entry level of play (which it doesn't). Quite frankly a lot of the work on Melee was done in advanced, and if you want to talk about "rushed", Brawl was in "rushed mode" thanks to the SSE FOR TWO ENTIRE YEARS, AND THEY STILL CUT HALF THE SSE AKA 60% OF THE GAME!!

Also, Sakurai never called Melee "clunky", but rather "too hard".

Also, EVO is a joke.

Says you and your army of one.

If it doesn't bring Smash 4 into the fold for petty reasons or "It isn't like Melee!" or "It's too like Brawl", then I won't watch their streams or support them.

Okay. But if people prefer Melee, Brawl, or what have you to Smash 4 and it would get higher attendance, I don't think you really have grounds to speak out against EVO. After all, the power rests with the players.

I think you yourself play a role in this divide. Nothing is ever going to change and I would have hoped by this time in 2014 something would have. I guess we are going to be back to square one here.

Wow blaming me and people like me=???

What gives you the entitlement to call me out like that=???

Son, you don't know me. And just like you don't know me, you don't have the right to speak in such a way against me.

As for my knowledge in Game Development, I was temporarily studying for it in school but decided to go more into the design side of things.

And I temporarily was studying film in school, but that doesn't make me Martin Scorsese.

PS: I'm not trolling. You would know if I am trolling. Just because you disagree with my sentiments doesn't mean you should be labeling people as trolls. Get real.

I know people from your region who describe you as exactly that.

 

[κomıc]

If Sakurai always spoke the truth, then Brawl would have a low entry level of play (which it doesn't). Quite frankly a lot of the work on Melee was done in advanced, and if you want to talk about "rushed", Brawl was in "rushed mode" thanks to the SSE FOR TWO ENTIRE YEARS, AND THEY STILL CUT HALF THE SSE AKA 60% OF THE GAME!!

I would love to see a source for this.

Also, Sakurai never called Melee "clunky", but rather "too hard".

Did I ever say Sakurai or even imply that he said the game was clunky. But thanks for proving the point.

Says you and your army of one.

I love being alone. As a matter a fact, I don't need an army to back me up or to validate my thoughts. That's the way of a free thinker.

Okay. But if people prefer Melee, Brawl, or what have you to Smash 4 and it would get higher attendance, I don't think you really have grounds to speak out against EVO. After all, the power rests with the players.

You mean like how the first tournament for Brawl included items because they wanted "To hype the game up." Such effort.

Wow blaming me and people like me=???

What gives you the entitlement to call me out like that=???

Son, you don't know me. And just like you don't know me, you don't have the right to speak in such a way against me.

Let me clarify and dumb it down: You, Johnknight1, play a role in the division in the Smash Bros community. Is that clear? At least, you're coming off that way.

And I temporarily was studying film in school, but that doesn't make me Martin Scorsese.

No. But that doesn't stop moviegoers or Gaming Enthusiasts to study and delve into the industry and know what goes on. You took took things literally. That's your problem, not mine.

I know people from your region (Florida) who describe you as exactly that: a lowly troll who thinks too highly of himself.

Oh, so you want to throw the shade. Okay, here we go then.

Spoiler

The problem is these people don't know me. And honestly, let me keep it real here: They don't like what I got to say and often, they throw themselves into situations that bear no relevance to them. I think it is so ironic, that you make a claim that someone from Florida says that about me, when, there are people who claim to troll for fun and actually, they are the ones who think highly of themselves. For crying out loud, the person is almost 40 years old. What is sad is that they want to lie to prove their point when the facts are here on Smashboards. You can take a look for yourself and see how I'm speaking to one person about "Sticking with Kirby" and someone wants to throw some shade for no reason. And also, my comment about "Nintendo Network being more stable than Wi-Fi Connections" warranted a "casual or fanboy" call out.

So, what I'm understanding here, is that you're basing your own judgements from a third-party who doesn't even know me or probably even my first name because they didn't want to give me a chance. They would rather me kiss their ass. And yes, I've said that here: so what? I speak my mind. Because you want to bring in something personal, let me write the checks.

And then they wonder why several look at Florida as the laughing stock of the community. The shade has been thrown.

Speaking my mind and standing up for myself has nothing to do with thinking highly of oneself. These are the same people who attacked and ganged up on one person because he was teasing about wanting to beat someone's Fox with their own. Everyone blew it out of proportion and guess what? That person held his own and did well.

Do the research and speak your own mind. It is funny how you want to talking about "An army of one."

So says the follower.

 

[<π]

Street Fighter 4- Don't jump




What does join date have to do with anything? You got me beat by a year and I completely disagree with you yet im the closest to your join date in this thread. I didn't want to be a part of the brawl community either. In fact I'm thinking about recording a video of me lighting my copy on fire.

Generally Join date is a way to tell how long you've been a part of the community. I wasn't trying to imply that everyone thinks the same way I do. I was saying that he lacks the experience in the scene to make strong calls on what has happened with in it. In fact that's exactly what I said.

I don't think most people with my join date thing the same way I do actually, most of the guys I played melee with despise brawl. I'm okay with that, they are allowed to think, feel and form their own opinions.

 

[Frank Weast]

I feel like smash 4 will be the ultra street fighter 4 while brawl was vanilla because vanilla was hilariously annoying while super/ultra fixed that, but honestly I am rally confident in this game

 

[pizzapie7]

All I said was "Melee is clunky, unpolished (which it is true, read the interviews with Sakurai) and was rushed out to launch."

And it's still the best game in the series! Isn't it wonderful how things work out sometimes?

Melee's controls are tight as hell, I don't know what your problem with them are. Keep on telling people it's clunky, I actually agree with you. My question is, so what?

 

[κomıc]

And it's still the best game in the series! Isn't it wonderful how things work out sometimes?

Melee's controls are tight as hell, I don't know what your problem with them are. Keep on telling people it's clunky, I actually agree with you. My question is, so what?

I only have a problem with how clunky it is and how my favorites aren't as good as I'd like them to be. All I said is that it is clunky and someone took offense to it and put their shining armor on to defend the game. People run Brawl through the mud and I don't speak on it because I don't care- I like the game.

And then, someone wants to bring in personal inaccurate information on me. I love it.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I don't blame NTSC players for hating on the PAL version, but it still makes me sad to be an Aussie.

I'd put Peach at 5, Ice Climbers at 6, Jigglypuff at 7, Pikachu at 8, Captain Falcon at 9, Dr. Mario at 10, Mario at 11 (huge divide), Samus at 12, Luigi at 13, Yoshi at 14, Ganondorf at 15, Young Link 16, Link at 17, DK at 18, Mewtwo at 19, Pichu at 20, Mr. G&W at 21, Zelda at 22, Roy at 23, Bowser at 24, Ness at 25, and Pikachu at 26.

Pichu > Roy, GnW and Zelda. You heard it here first.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Also, if the Brawl development team were so good, then how come during the E3 Media Q&A Sakurai basically said "they did all the balancing" while he's doing balancing this time and with 64 and Melee, inferring they are the problem with Brawl's balancing=???

(to further back this point, Game Arts isn't remotely involved with Smash 4's development, and they can't get a job after that disaster TMNT Smash Up smash clone game they developed for Ubisoft)

The choices for the Brawl dev team, outside of Sakurai of course, were simply bizarre. They basically cobbled together a bunch of Game Arts employees (a nobody dev that mostly makes RPGs) and a few Monolith Soft employees (a somebody dev that mostly makes RPGs) and decided that as long as Sakurai's in charge, everything's going to be fine, even if he's the only guy on the team that has experience making fighting games. As much as some people use Brawl as evidence against Sakurai being a great game designer, Brawl probably would've been much worse had he not been involved. Actually having a team of professional fighting game designers should make Smash 4 a much more polished game than its predecessors.

 

[κomıc]

The choices for the Brawl dev team, outside of Sakurai of course, were simply bizarre. They basically cobbled together a bunch of Game Arts employees (a nobody dev that mostly makes RPGs) and a few Monolith Soft employees (a somebody dev that mostly makes RPGs) and decided that as long as Sakurai's in charge, everything's going to be fine, even if he's the only guy on the team that has experience making fighting games. As much as some people use Brawl as evidence against Sakurai being a great game designer, Brawl probably would've been much worse had he not been involved. Actually having a team of professional fighting game designers should make Smash 4 a much more polished game than its predecessors.

It is a stretch to say Game Arts is a nobody developer but I do agree that if Sakurai wasn't in charge the game would probably be different. On the other hand, there were team members from Melee as well mixed in there.

Luckily, Smash 4 is getting just that plus some team members from the Tales series. Other good news is that Smash 4's balancing team consists of about 10+ members compared to Brawl's 4-6. An interesting dynamic that even Sakurai says is tough because there are disputes between the balancing even though he is the one typing in the values and numbers for the characters.