Will Lucina outclass Marth?

[meleebrawler]

Stahl + Cordelia really bugged me too >.>

Playing a duet is fine and all, but I would prefer some proper love related dialogue where it is implied that one of them love each other before the S support. It's a shame because Stahl x Cordelia was a good pair and one of the best Severa (not counting MU)

Ya it's Mr. Average with Mrs. Perfect...

 

[Phantom High]

Guys i thought of something...
what if some of Lucina's attacks have set knockback similar to Fox's shine in melee?

i can actually see that being a thing.

 

[DairunCates]

Just thought I'd add to the pot here. Based on what we've seen of Lucina from the streams of early copies, she does look quite a bit faster than Marth. She seems to lose damage and knockback to compensate though. Also, I can't confirm this, but she seemed to have less landing lag. So, I think there's definitely enough difference between the two to warrant them both being used. Also, with the counterattack buff, this makes Marth closer to Roy than Lucina.

 

[Trickerhere]

Hopefully Lucina is good or I might have to drop her from my mains lol

 

[DairunCates]

Hopefully Lucina is good or I might have to drop her from my mains lol

She looks good but very difficult. From the little we saw on the street break, she can rack up damage VERY fast and has a dodge roll that's faster than some people's running speed, but she doesn't have a lot of killing moves. Mind you. This is a CPU that was using her. So, she might have a few good kill moves that the CPU just wasn't using. Still, the guy streaming may have been so bad he lost to 4 unlock battles 3 times each, but she slaughtered the guy even as a CPU. He didn't get a hit in until like 80%. So, yeah. I wouldn't worry. She'll be at least viable.

 

[Angrycuban]

with out tippers shes gonna be tough to get kills with, regardless shes my favorite video game character so i shall make her work

 

[Profanity]

The cpu fights are nothing to go on. We essentially have almost no useable information to project her strength objectively yet.

 

[DairunCates]

The cpu fights are nothing to go on. We essentially have almost no useable information to project her strength objectively yet.

For long term, no. But it was enough to give the Impression of how she's DIFFERENT, and it looks very positive. Basically, it looks fairly good and it probably can only get better if we find out she DOES have a kill move.

 

[Satan-]

Just thought I'd add to the pot here. Based on what we've seen of Lucina from the streams of early copies, she does look quite a bit faster than Marth. She seems to lose damage and knockback to compensate though. Also, I can't confirm this, but she seemed to have less landing lag. So, I think there's definitely enough difference between the two to warrant them both being used. Also, with the counterattack buff, this makes Marth closer to Roy than Lucina.

She is not faster than Marth and her moveshave fairly decent knockback. Landing lag is the same on everything.

>Marth closer to Roy than Lucina
.......................................

She looks good but very difficult. From the little we saw on the street break, she can rack up damage VERY fast and has a dodge roll that's faster than some people's running speed, but she doesn't have a lot of killing moves. Mind you. This is a CPU that was using her. So, she might have a few good kill moves that the CPU just wasn't using. Still, the guy streaming may have been so bad he lost to 4 unlock battles 3 times each, but she slaughtered the guy even as a CPU. He didn't get a hit in until like 80%. So, yeah. I wouldn't worry. She'll be at least viable.

For long term, no. But it was enough to give the Impression of how she's DIFFERENT, and it looks very positive. Basically, it looks fairly good and it probably can only get better if we find out she DOES have a kill move.

Her Fsmash kills at 130% and given the blast zones, this is a big + considering Marth's untipped Fsmash kills at 170+%.

That could be considered a kill move considering the insane blast zone sizes...

 

[DairunCates]

1. Zipzo tested Lucina and yeah. He says she's really fast. The general consensus of people that tried her and have been streaming is that she's faster and feels more like melee marth than marth does. I don't get where you're thinking that Marth is the same speed. It's not just about run speed. It's about general move lag and the speed of her dodge roll.

2. Comparing a base smash hit to a character's glancing blow isn't terribly productive. Also, while 130% is okay, there are plenty of characters that can kill much lower than 130%. Was she attacking a heavy character or a light one?

 

[Satan-]

1. Zipzo tested Lucina and yeah. He says she's really fast. The general consensus of people that tried her and have been streaming is that she's faster and feels more like melee marth than marth does. I don't get where you're thinking that Marth is the same speed. It's not just about run speed. It's about general move lag and the speed of her dodge roll.

2. Comparing a base smash hit to a character's glancing blow isn't terribly productive. Also, while 130% is okay, there are plenty of characters that can kill much lower than 130%. Was she attacking a heavy character or a light one?

Zipzo was wrong about a lot of things and the opinions of someone who isn't really competitive are less valuable than people who play the game competitively in my eyes AND we have people on Smashboards who own the game...

1: Who are these people you are talking about? http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-moveset-data-analysis-thread.367457/#post-17564304
Read the thread. She's Marth without a tipper, she is not faster.

http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-f-air-autocancells-confirmed-by-d1.366040/#post-17565917
Read post number 24. Her landing lag is the same as Marth's too. False also said the same thing and he played both of them and was a Marth main in brawl so he has some credible...

2: She was fighting Marth...

 

[DairunCates]

Zipzo was wrong about a lot of things and the opinions of someone who isn't really competitive are less valuable than people who play the game competitively in my eyes AND we have people on Smashboards who own the game...

1: Who are these people you are talking about? http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-moveset-data-analysis-thread.367457/#post-17564304
Read the thread. She's Marth without a tipper, she is not faster.

http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-f-air-autocancells-confirmed-by-d1.366040/#post-17565917
Read post number 24. Her landing lag is the same as Marth's too. False also said the same thing and he played both of them and was a Marth main in brawl so he has some credible...

2: She was fighting Marth...

Yeah. Looking at it, she does seem to be more similar than people initially thought. Watched some stuff on her damage percentages, and the data in the threads is about right. I'm legitimately wondering why people are having trouble with Marth's landing lag and not Lucina's 5 seconds later if there's absolutely no difference between the two. I've seen more than one streamer have this reaction, and if it's really just confirmation bias, that's a significant amount of it.

I'd also still like a video comparison on Lucina and Marth's run and dodge roll speeds at some point as several streamers and people at the TourneyLocator tourney yesterday seem to think there's a slightly difference. It's possible this is just a case of 5-6ish people with confirmation bias (and I'm tending to believe it more after seeing some gameplay data), but I think it's worth checking the frame data on. I still think there may be some very slight differences, but I don't really have any proof for it.

Even then, I wouldn't say Lucina is JUST Marth without the Tipper. Some people in the gameplay thread are noticing some slight hitbox differences like her down air having a slightly wider swing and her model being a little smaller. Also, the lack of tipper seems to have made her U-smash a lot more viable than Marth's (unless you can get someone RIGHT on a platform above you). This isn't just coming from the thread I linked, but the TourneyLocator Invitational yesterday.

Point is, even if their attributes are near identical, just the small change of the sword not having a tipper seems to have drastically changed how you approach the two characters. This should probably be a little obvious since Roy was bottom tier in Melee, but I don't think it's gonna be THAT drastic since Lucina still gets solid hits on the tip of her sword instead of having wonky hitboxes.

Even in the analysis thread, multiple people are saying that Lucina plays a bit more like a rushdown character because of her not needing to space and getting consistent KO knockback at 130% (whereas Marth can KO at 90-100% if you're methodical and can land a tipper). The difference in the swords is gonna change a lot of how they approach things and what combos are viable for each.

So, I do think ONE of the two is gonna outclass the other (at least a bit), but it's hard to tell at this point. It's gonna depend HEAVILY on how good the zoning characters are, the general speed of the game, and whether we discover any options that allow Marth to consistently get people in his Tipper zone (which may be harder since throws throw farther in general now).

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is human psychology nothing more. When you play Marth you know its a new game. You know he has been changed to better suit this game and not dominate other chars. You know its a different Marth. But there is a small part of you that constantly says to yourself, this is NOT Marth.

"This is NOT the king of smash. Marth should be able to combo me across the stage and spike me or tipper me 0 to death SUPER EASY PEASY. So when you whiff a tipper you say oh hes slow. Hes garbage."

Then you play Lucina who is in fact...Marth. She has his moveset, his specials, his movement....even the mans freakin genetic material, BUT...her skin is different. She is aesthetically different from Marth so you know you are playing someone that is not "Marth". So you do not unconsciously compare her to a past character. And since there is no tipper you just go in and do stuff.

"Oh my goodness shes so fast. Shes so strong. Shes WAY better then Marth."

Stop it. Neither Lucina or Marth are godlike. Nor are they terrible. they are solid chars with solid toolsets.

End of story.

And unless its discovered that they have different frame data, this point i just made shall stand forever and ever until the end of time.

 

[Tino]

I got some high hopes for Lucina seeing as she's definitely going to be one of my 5 mains in the game. I do feel bad for the Hero-King himself if she does somehow outclass him in some way.

 

[DairunCates]

It is human psychology nothing more.

Yeah. I know. What do you think "confirmation bias" is and why I used the phrase? Also, I don't think anyone's been arguing that either one if vastly superior or God-Like. There's merely a discussion on whether one will come out on top.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If things stand as they are it will be Marth that comes out on top albeit only ever so slightly.

 

[Shao-tan]

Here's my opinion as someone who played Marth in tournaments for over 7 years, placed well in nationwide tournaments (even if our scene is weaker) and has the game right now.

They both are going to play very similarly, they have incredible air control and ground movement, you "weave" around your opponent with sweeping hitboxes while returning to safety, after all they are very similar. Rushing your opponent down straight up won't work as Lucina and there's better characters to do that. However, they have distinct strengths, initially I thought Lucina would be just a weaker version of Marth because you control your game around the tip of your sword. It's true that Marth has a better combo game at low %s if you hit tipper aerials, it's hard to put this in words, but hitstun in this game is still very small and Fair has considerable landing lag now, and combos into Fsmash don't seem as good as before because its range got nerfed so much. Combos feel situational, for the most part you'll be forced to carefully go for "one hit at time while putting your opponent in disadvantageous situations". Tipper Fsmashes are crazy yeah, but at the same time they are very inconsistent to hit, and Marth still struggles with his old problems of killing at high %s. This is where Lucina has over Marth, a fresh Fsmash kills around 110% no matter where it hits, going offstage to edgeguard with fair is much better with her because her fair sends your forward almost in a straight line, while a Fair tipper isn't likely to kill your opponent offstage because it'll send your opponent upwards. I had better success with Lucina, if just for easier kill moves, considering the blast zones are so big it's mind boggling. Or maybe I'm just bad at adjusting to the new tipper range.

agh this is so terribly written but i hope i got my point across

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you have ever played Street Fighter just play Marth like you play Fei-Long. Or Steve Fox in Tekken. Or Slayer in Guilty Gear. I could keep going. the playstyle is very common and effective.

You bulldog your opponent with normals and quick pokes and keep them in disadvantageous situations. Every hit resets your advantage. Your opponent either must guess or get banged up trying to get out of your control. You give your opponent just enough space to kill themselves.

 

[Shao-tan]

If you have ever played Street Fighter just play Marth like you play Fei-Long. Or Steve Fox in Tekken. Or Slayer in Guilty Gear. I could keep going. the playstyle is very common and effective.

You bulldog your opponent with normals and quick pokes and keep them in disadvantageous situations. Every hit resets your advantage. Your opponent either must guess or get banged up trying to get out of your control. You give your opponent just enough space to kill themselves.

That's what I'm trying to get at. They can both can execute this particular playstyle, and I believe it's the optimal way to play them both, but Marth has more immediate threat, while Lucina has much less trouble finishing opponents off.

 

[Emblem Lord]

meh just go for non tipped fair with marth when edgeguarding or bair

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

At high level play, Marth should be better offstage simply via tipped aerials.

Lucina is more comfortable close range because of the consistency of her sword.

That's pretty much it. Both will be very effective.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Here's my opinion as someone who played Marth in tournaments for over 7 years, placed well in nationwide tournaments (even if our scene is weaker) and has the game right now.

They both are going to play very similarly, they have incredible air control and ground movement, you "weave" around your opponent with sweeping hitboxes while returning to safety, after all they are very similar. Rushing your opponent down straight up won't work as Lucina and there's better characters to do that. However, they have distinct strengths, initially I thought Lucina would be just a weaker version of Marth because you control your game around the tip of your sword. It's true that Marth has a better combo game at low %s if you hit tipper aerials, it's hard to put this in words, but hitstun in this game is still very small and Fair has considerable landing lag now, and combos into Fsmash don't seem as good as before because its range got nerfed so much. Combos feel situational, for the most part you'll be forced to carefully go for "one hit at time while putting your opponent in disadvantageous situations". Tipper Fsmashes are crazy yeah, but at the same time they are very inconsistent to hit, and Marth still struggles with his old problems of killing at high %s. This is where Lucina has over Marth, a fresh Fsmash kills around 110% no matter where it hits, going offstage to edgeguard with fair is much better with her because her fair sends your forward almost in a straight line, while a Fair tipper isn't likely to kill your opponent offstage because it'll send your opponent upwards. I had better success with Lucina, if just for easier kill moves, considering the blast zones are so big it's mind boggling. Or maybe I'm just bad at adjusting to the new tipper range.

agh this is so terribly written but i hope i got my point across

This, 100%. And I did notice the blast zones seem to be ridiculously bigger, so you're not alone on that one.

 

[MyvTeddy]

BUT...her skin is different. She is aesthetically different from Marth

That is all I need to hear.

 

[Bushando64]

I'm personally in the "Marth Should Have Been Totally Replaced By Lucina Or Even Chrom" club considering I don't like Marth as a character and his games were kinda boring, BUT.

I think they're gonna be spaced apart with quite the difference as far as usage goes; most people have already stated that the new "Marth" feels like he's been surprisingly nerfed as far as his range goes. That, to me, makes me feel like he's going to be way less effective as he may need to rely on the tip because of the new physics and whatnot. Lucina, on the other hand, is coming in fresh and while she may have the same range, her potential is unknown and therefore could be astronomical--I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that she's going to perform better by a wide margin.

 

[Satan-]

I'm personally in the "Marth Should Have Been Totally Replaced By Lucina Or Even Chrom" club considering I don't like Marth as a character and his games were kinda boring, BUT.

I think they're gonna be spaced apart with quite the difference as far as usage goes; most people have already stated that the new "Marth" feels like he's been surprisingly nerfed as far as his range goes. That, to me, makes me feel like he's going to be way less effective as he may need to rely on the tip because of the new physics and whatnot. Lucina, on the other hand, is coming in fresh and while she may have the same range, her potential is unknown and therefore could be astronomical--I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that she's going to perform better by a wide margin.

Given what we know so far, Marth will be much better than Lucina in higher level of plays...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Story wise Lucina might as well be Marths reincarnation. As for him being boring..lol. His story was compelling and dramatic. There is a reason why both his games got remakes. He is a nintendo icon for a reason.

 

[Robertman2]

Story wise Lucina might as well be Marths reincarnation. As for him being boring..lol. His story was compelling and dramatic. There is a reason why both his games got remakes. He is a nintendo icon for a reason.

Well... Shadow Dragon sucks. Also, he's definitely not as compelling as a character as , , or

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Well... Shadow Dragon sucks. Also, he's definitely not as compelling as a character as , , or

They really should have made him gangster tbh. Marth is a g and y'all know it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth did not hesitate to kill his best friend for the greater good and for his betrayal. Lucina wussed out and spared Robin.

She shames the Hero's blood coursing in her veins.

And yes they should be more compelling because Marths game is old and I would hope Nintendos writing has improved with time. That doesnt mean Marth wasnt a well made character though. He was certainly interesting enough to be cloned.

Twice.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Let's face it Marth's a cutie

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I doubt the characters' personalities has anything to do with Marth receiving a clone. Even then they're both outclassed L2FightForFriends guys.

As for the main topic at hand, thus far I'm definitely way more impressed with Lucina than Marth, but of course I'll have to actually get the game in my hands first to properly judge that, I don't know the nitty gritty differences quite yet.