Will Lucina outclass Marth?

[Sours]

Ike ran very fast in subspace emissary, and he was slow as heck. I can understand judging by gameplay, but a CG trailer? Really? I guess while we're at it, Palutena can whisk Pit away for free, and Greninja can hang on ceilings of stages.

Palutena OP plz nerf

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Sakurai said that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's. The only logical thought is that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's non-tipper. That already takes away any of my desire to play as her (was never interested in her anyway, I wanted Chrom lol).

The tipper is what makes Marth, Marth. It's like getting crits in Smash but made specifically for Marth.

Clearly Lucina is only attempting to be Marth (just like in Awakening) but she'll never be Marth :D

 

[Sours]

(was never interested in her anyway, I wanted Chrom lol).

Chrom would've still been a clone.

 

[Chaos15]

Sakurai said that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's. The only logical thought is that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's non-tipper. That already takes away any of my desire to play as her (was never interested in her anyway, I wanted Chrom lol).

The tipper is what makes Marth, Marth. It's like getting crits in Smash but made specifically for Marth.

Clearly Lucina is only attempting to be Marth (just like in Awakening) but she'll never be Marth :D

He said that the power is balance out troughout the sword. So she is stronger than Mart's non-tipper but weakker than Mart's tipper.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Chrom would've still been a clone.

Probably but maybe not... Lucina was literally copying Marth in Awakening and therefore tried to fight like him. That's why I knew she was gonna be a Marth clone.

But with Chrom, I saw him being in between Marth and Ike. He was more like a mix between Ike and Marth in awakening. If you look at Robins final smash, Chrom even looks like he would have been that middle guy. More knock back than marth, more speed than Ike.

 

[Sours]

Probably but maybe not... Lucina was literally copying Marth in Awakening and therefore tried to fight like him. That's why I knew she was gonna be a Marth clone.

But with Chrom, I saw him being in between Marth and Ike. He was more like a mix between Ike and Marth in awakening. If you look at Robins final smash, Chrom even looks like he would have been that middle guy. More knock back than marth, more speed than Ike.

Meh, I still appreciate Lucina being in smash. She is my favorite character in FE:Awakening

 

[JaidynReiman]

Sakurai said that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's. The only logical thought is that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's non-tipper. That already takes away any of my desire to play as her (was never interested in her anyway, I wanted Chrom lol).

The tipper is what makes Marth, Marth. It's like getting crits in Smash but made specifically for Marth.

Clearly Lucina is only attempting to be Marth (just like in Awakening) but she'll never be Marth :D

I'll play as Lucina because she looks cool and she plays similar to my main from the past two games anyway. I'll just switch between the two of them.

I think Lucina would be as half as strong as Marth's tipper, she's well-balanced instead of having a tipper, so some may find it easier to use her, or prefer Marth if they can consistently hit on the tipper. If you can consistently hit with the tip of Marth's sword, he'll always be better, but if you have a hard time doing that, Lucina is an easier alternative.

Chrom would've still been a clone.

Probably but maybe not... Lucina was literally copying Marth in Awakening and therefore tried to fight like him. That's why I knew she was gonna be a Marth clone.

But with Chrom, I saw him being in between Marth and Ike. He was more like a mix between Ike and Marth in awakening. If you look at Robins final smash, Chrom even looks like he would have been that middle guy. More knock back than marth, more speed than Ike.

Chrom would've been a clone because Sakurai knew that he wasn't different enough from Marth and Ike for him to have a desire to actually design Chrom. Yes, Chrom could've been unique if Sakurai felt it was worth the effort to do so. Fact is, he didn't. He didn't think that having another sword fighter similar to existing sword fighters would be enough to justify making Chrom his own character, in comparison to a much more original character as a whole.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Meh, I still appreciate Lucina being in smash. She is my favorite character in FE:Awakening

Yeah I guess it's a little biased then lol I hated Lucina. I'm ecstatic about Robin but I'll probably use Marth over the 4 FE's. If he becomes the underdog in Sm4sh then that'll just make me even happier to use him lol

 

[Xafer2468]

Sakurai said that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's. The only logical thought is that Lucina's power is equal to Marth's non-tipper. That already takes away any of my desire to play as her (was never interested in her anyway, I wanted Chrom lol).

The tipper is what makes Marth, Marth. It's like getting crits in Smash but made specifically for Marth.

Clearly Lucina is only attempting to be Marth (just like in Awakening) but she'll never be Marth :D

I doubt thats true, imo her sword looks stronger so overall her damage will be increased(not to the extent of the tipper though). She has a lot of potential; imagine if marths dair always spiked regardless of tipper, that could be Lucina.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I think Lucina's D-air will make or break her, honestly. If it doesn't spike, the choice between which is better out of her and Marth will be clear. If, however, it spikes with a sweetspot or even along the whole blade, she'll be much stronger than otherwise.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I doubt thats true, imo her sword looks stronger so overall her damage will be increased(not to the extent of the tipper though). She has a lot of potential; imagine if marths dair always spiked regardless of tipper, that could be Lucina.

Actually I doubt Lucina will be able to spike with her D-air. You gotta remember, the swords damage is only balanced. Think of the tipper as a crit hit (not his final smash lol). Since she lacks it I kinda get the feeling that her knock back will actually be less. But who knows

And her sword may be a bit stronger on the balance (considering her stats really are equal to Marths) so If a hit without Marths tipper does 12% I expect hers to do like 14-15% which isn't a big difference.

 

[Xafer2468]

I think at worst, her dair will be a meteor smash. Whats the point of a dair that would send opponents upwards, has a ton of lag, and has no kill potential.

 

[KatKit]

I hope they're balanced in the sense that one doesn't outclass the other, despite their differences. I hope it all boils down to preference, but that they are relatively equal overall.

Since there are customizable movesets now, I think it is very possible.

 

[Raziek]

I think at worst, her dair will be a meteor smash. Whats the point of a dair that would send opponents upwards, has a ton of lag, and has no kill potential.

You are describing Brawl Pit's Dair, btw.

A dair like that is not unprecedented.

I am in the 'between tipper and non-tipper' camp, personally. It wouldn't make any sense for her to be better than Marth's tipper, because that would make him harder to execute with less reward, which is bad design.

It's going to come down to frame data and the properties of her moves. If Lucina gets like..... MK dair, oh man.

 

[Binary Clone]

As it is, it looks to me like Lucina is going to be easier to use for low-level play, which she's designed for. But since they're the same speed and strength, Marth is going to be better for more skilled play because of his strength in spacing and added kill/combo potential through the ability to sweet and sourspot attacks.

 

[NiTEZ]

I think what we're forgetting here is that Sakurai said almost identical in moves/speed/power.
Meaning there will be differences that set them apart and have one that excels in other areas.
Lucina being easier to use for low-level play doesn't mean that she won't be better for higher levels.

While Marth does reward for spacing, as with what people said with Lucina, you can then just play her
as a more offensive, rushdown-like Marth that doesn't have to focus on tipper-based play. Tipper can help/hurt Marth
when it comes to killing because it's more of a case where he has to land it.

Also, Sakurai's logic with Chrom is terrible in regards to Lucina. "Chrom isn't unique enough so I'm going to use Lucina
in the most non-unique way possible"

 

[Skyblade12]

Also, Sakurai's logic with Chrom is terrible in regards to Lucina. "Chrom isn't unique enough so I'm going to use Lucina
in the most non-unique way possible"

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. I've always known that if Lucina was going to be in, she would be a Marth clone. In addition to adopting his outfit and name, she was similar enough in appearance and mannerisms to fool Tiki when they met. Further, in their Support Conversation, Tiki essentially becomes convinced that Lucina is Marth reborn. "(...She builds trust and wins allies without even thinking about it...) (Could she truly be...?!)"

That was why, when we got confirmation of Marth's return, I actually pretty much took it as confirmation that Lucina would not be in it (and was very pleasantly surprised).

Chrom, on the other hand, would need to be unique. Physically, he's a much more imposing character, and would play closer to Ike than Marth. Nevertheless, he clearly isn't an Ike clone. He doesn't have eruption, Falchion isn't a greatsword, so it doesn't have the range Ragnelle does, etcetera. So a reskin is a much harder proposition for Chrom than it is for Lucina. If Sakurai could reskin a character into Chrom, then I'm sure he would have done it. But there isn't one that fits, and there wasn't a way he could think of to create a unique playstyle that still fits for Chrom. Chrom was in a kind of limbo. There was no playstyle that could be copied/reskinned easily enough, and no room for another different swordfighter playstyle. So he didn't fit in.

 

[NiTEZ]

I honestly don't see the logic in say X character isn't unique enough and then putting in Y character as a clone of Z character.
If anything his logic makes more sense for Robin's inclusion, but that's not what he was seemingly referring to.

 

[Skyblade12]

I honestly don't see the logic in say X character isn't unique enough and then putting in Y character as a clone of Z character.
If anything his logic makes more sense for Robin's inclusion, but that's not what he was seemingly referring to.

Ok, so how would you put in Chrom? Who would he be a clone of?

Or, if you wouldn't make him a clone, how would you make him unique? How would you differentiate between Chrom and Marth, or Chrom and Ike?

Cloning a character is easy, but it requires the characters be similar enough to clone. Marth and Lucina are similar enough. Chrom isn't. It's not that hard to figure out. If you can't make him unique, and you can't clone him, you can't get him in.

 

[Reginleif]

Also, Sakurai's logic with Chrom is terrible in regards to Lucina. "Chrom isn't unique enough so I'm going to use Lucina
in the most non-unique way possible"

His reasoning was that Lucina and Marth share a close relationship in the game since Lucina poses as Marth. And she was originally going to be an alt like Wii Fit Trainers and Robins, but he made her a little more different.

Canonically, Chrom and Lucina fight the same way. Except Chrom is another male, less popular, and would be redundant to have a Marth clone, and not worth enough to invest making him his own character.

 

[NiTEZ]

I can see where you're coming from with clones being easier to make than giving a unique moveset.
The female inclusion in the game is also something that I could see being an influence as well.
I'm just happy she's in, but I'm hoping that more differences/variations are shown later on.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Probably but maybe not... Lucina was literally copying Marth in Awakening and therefore tried to fight like him. That's why I knew she was gonna be a Marth clone.

But with Chrom, I saw him being in between Marth and Ike. He was more like a mix between Ike and Marth in awakening. If you look at Robins final smash, Chrom even looks like he would have been that middle guy. More knock back than marth, more speed than Ike.

Just want to say, Lucina was fighting the way Chrom fought, because he taught her. No one remembers the old hero king so she couldn't "copy" him that well. However they are the same bloodline so perhaps Chrom's fighting style had similarities with Marth due to passing down techniques (as Sakurai mentioned, it must be her DNA).

 

[Skyblade12]

Just want to say, Lucina was fighting the way Chrom fought, because he taught her. No one remembers the old hero king so she couldn't "copy" him that well. However they are the same bloodline so perhaps Chrom's fighting style had similarities with Marth due to passing down techniques (as Sakurai mentioned, it must be her DNA).

Chrom teaching her doesn't mean they fight the same way. If you're teaching someone who is smaller, weaker, and faster than you, you will not teach them to fight in an identical fashion to the way you fight, you'll teach them to play to their own strengths.

Again, Chrom is too dissimilar, physically, from Marth to be a Marth clone the way Lucina is. What's more, having him in game as a character would pretty much demand he be "the face of Awakening" in Smash. I, for one, would have been massively upset to get him as a clone of a character that he doesn't really fit with, just to get him in game.

 

[Reginleif]

Chrom teaching her doesn't mean they fight the same way. If you're teaching someone who is smaller, weaker, and faster than you, you will not teach them to fight in an identical fashion to the way you fight, you'll teach them to play to their own strengths.

Again, Chrom is too dissimilar, physically, from Marth to be a Marth clone the way Lucina is. What's more, having him in game as a character would pretty much demand he be "the face of Awakening" in Smash. I, for one, would have been massively upset to get him as a clone of a character that he doesn't really fit with, just to get him in game.

Did you watch Two Falchions? They do the same stabs, jumps, moves. There's no way Chrom would ask "Who taught you how to fight like that?" without suspicion. "My father" just confirms it.

Actually Chrom is not that far from Marth, especially in his SSB4 Hero King design where he's more bulkier.
And he's the not the face of Awakening.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Did you watch Two Falchions? They do the same stabs, jumps, moves. There's no way Chrom would ask "Who taught you how to fight like that?" without suspicion. "My father" just confirms it.

Actually Chrom is not that far from Marth, especially in his SSB4 Hero King design where he's more bulkier.
And he's the not the face of Awakening.

Yeah I guess you're right about that. Chrom still seems to fight differently, which in that case, so should Lucina. As long as Lucinas not put in this game to throw out Marth then I'll be able to sleep at night... Nobody replaces the hero-king

 

[Toadmode]

I don't think she'll really outclass Marth. She'll only be a bit faster than him if anything. As far as I'm concerned she's just a faster Roy without fire. So I'll still be maining Marth if Roy isn't dlc.

 

[Rockaphin]

I'm actually hoping the opposite. I have no attachment to Marth what-so-ever so I'd love to see someone dethrone him. I'm hoping Lucina is better but I think Marth will still be a little better. Especially for shield breaking and edge guarding.

 

[Mono.]

At least Sakurai was right when it comes to Chrom. He's not an interesting character in FE:A and I saw him as nothing more than an inferior Ike, if not downright boring. In fact, you'll find that majority of Awakening's cast is an inferior [insert previous FE title character here].

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

At least Sakurai was right when it comes to Chrom. He's not an interesting character in FE:A and I saw him as nothing more than an inferior Ike, if not downright boring. In fact, you'll find that majority of Awakening's cast is an inferior [insert previous FE title character here].

Not everyone though. Gaius beats Legault any day of the week.

 

[fe_wander]

Not everyone though. Gaius beats Legault any day of the week.

Gaius vs Matthew is pretty close though

 

[Kuraudo]

I have a feeling that Marth will still be better. If the rumor behind how landing lag was reduced after E3 is true, Marth won't have to worry too much about what he was at a disadvantage for in the previous build.

Not to mention, unless you turn him into what Roy was in Melee, Marth's design as a fighter just screams of High Tier. In Melee it was his range and ability to combo/juggle fast fallers. In Brawl, it was his superior spacing in a defensive game, along with more powerful aerials and tilts (UTilt/UAir/BAir/DAir are glorious kill moves). In Smash 4, if the aerial landing lag is reduced and with the little bit of extra hitstun, Marth could become a mixture of his Melee/Brawl self which can be dangerous. Lucina, if she follows in Marth's footsteps, will also be good by extension.

 

[Reginleif]

Marth had more than just landing lag nerfed from him though

 

[Stalkos]

I think at worst, her dair will be a meteor smash. Whats the point of a dair that would send opponents upwards, has a ton of lag, and has no kill potential.

We are forgetting one think. Lucina may still have the 'tip mechanic', but only applied for her spike in this situation.

Let's say she is a clone of Marth even in programming. She will have the tip mechanic implanted in her, but they only changed that her damage is constant in the whole blade, but the game would still be able to recognize the tip or not, and the spike could be applied on Lucina the same way.

 

[Skyblade12]

Did you watch Two Falchions? They do the same stabs, jumps, moves. There's no way Chrom would ask "Who taught you how to fight like that?" without suspicion. "My father" just confirms it.

Actually Chrom is not that far from Marth, especially in his SSB4 Hero King design where he's more bulkier.
And he's the not the face of Awakening.

Again, I'll point to the Tiki Supports. This time, her support with Robin.

"Perhaps because Chrom is not like Marth. He is much more direct, and committed to what he believes is right. Chrom might more resemble a different ancestor, from the age I was born in. Another great man in their line, from 1000 years before Marth... But the Marth of my time was wise and fair, and won hearts with his kindness."

So, again. Lucina is similar enough to convince the millennia-old dragon who actually knew the Hero King that she was Marth reborn. While Chrom reminds her of a completely different character (likely Anri, Marth's ancestor who first defeated Medeus).

While we're at it, look at the Lodestar class that is unique to the Marth Einherjar. It has the EXACT SAME look and animations of Lucina's Lord class. Which looks different from Chrom's Lord class, and has different animations.

I'm sorry, but in both gameplay and story, Lucina is a far more obvious Marth clone than Chrom is.

 

[ChristianPonte]

Has anyone checked if/how Lucina's "new" Falchion differs in length to Marth's? I know there aren't many good shots to do so in the trailer, but since one of Marth's perks was his reach and range, I'm curious how Lucina's compares, even if the tip isn't quite as strong.

 

[Reginleif]

Again, I'll point to the Tiki Supports. This time, her support with Robin.

"Perhaps because Chrom is not like Marth. He is much more direct, and committed to what he believes is right. Chrom might more resemble a different ancestor, from the age I was born in. Another great man in their line, from 1000 years before Marth... But the Marth of my time was wise and fair, and won hearts with his kindness."

So, again. Lucina is similar enough to convince the millennia-old dragon who actually knew the Hero King that she was Marth reborn. While Chrom reminds her of a completely different character (likely Anri, Marth's ancestor who first defeated Medeus).

While we're at it, look at the Lodestar class that is unique to the Marth Einherjar. It has the EXACT SAME look and animations of Lucina's Lord class. Which looks different from Chrom's Lord class, and has different animations.

I'm sorry, but in both gameplay and story, Lucina is a far more obvious Marth clone than Chrom is.

Yes, Chrom and Marth are different characters, counting Lucina. They all have their own personality, story, and purpose.
We're not discussing character here. Chrom is not Marth. Lucina is not Marth. Personality-wise, of course.

When I made that comparison with Marth and Chrom, I was referring to their physical traits in regards to SSB4. Marth in SSB4 is bulkier and more resembles Chrom's Awakening build.

Their arms, chest, and waist pretty much match up.

Lucina's arms are sticks. (And she's a pixel shorter than him, according to Sakurai. )

The Marth in Awakening is canon to look like Marth's DLC artwork, which is why Lucina shares the same clothing and why Tiki mistakes her for Marth.

Yes, it's true Lodestar is a copy and paste of Lucina's lord class, all DLC/SpotPass are copy-and-paste and none are truly unique. But you can't ignore the canon cutscene which blatantly points out visually and with dialogue that Chrom and Lucina are practically the same type of fighter.

I agree with you that Lucina is far more obvious choice when picking a Marth clone since Sakurai states himself that the two share a big relationship, since Lucina literally poses as Marth. She has a reason to be included as a Marth clone.

I'm just disagreeing with you when you said that Chrom and Lucina don't fight the same way. They're literally doing the same exact moves in the cutscene. And that Chrom resembled Marth's SSB4 bulkier build more.

 

[Hero of the Winds]

Either way, stat wise, you all have to take into consideration the gear or armor thing. If that really makes a difference, you could make a Martha that is like Ike in Brawl.

 

[Skyblade12]

I'm just disagreeing with you when you said that Chrom and Lucina don't fight the same way. They're literally doing the same exact moves in the cutscene. And that Chrom resembled Marth's SSB4 bulkier build more.

If they fight identically, why do they have different in-game animations? Why would you put in the work to develop separate animations if the two characters are supposed to fight identically? It's the only instance in-game of one class having different animations depending on who uses it.

Also, Chrom really doesn't look like SSB4 Marth. SSB4 Marth isn't really any bulkier, from a physical standpoint. His cloak and pauldrons are simply more heavily emphasized, so he appears bulkier. Check the actual thickness of his arms and it's clear he's still the same twig underneath.

 

[L9999]

At least Sakurai was right when it comes to Chrom. He's not an interesting character in FE:A and I saw him as nothing more than an inferior Ike, if not downright boring. In fact, you'll find that majority of Awakening's cast is an inferior [insert previous FE title character here].

Frederick is like Oifey from Genealogy of War, Henry is like Karel but as a Dark Mage, Sumia is an inferior version of Sheeda, Nowi is an inferior version of Tiki, Basilio looks like Nick Fury, Libra is a Lucius rip-off, Ricken is an inferior version of Merric, Miriel is a Lute rip-off, Vaike is Bartre, Lon'qu is a Nabarl with gynophobia, Gregor is an inferior Ogma, Validar is a wannabe Nergal, Virion is a Sain rip-off but stupidier, Severa feels like Raven, and the list goes on, and on, and on. There should be a thread about this....

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Frederick is like Oifey from Genealogy of War, Henry is like Karel but as a Dark Mage, Sumia is an inferior version of Sheeda, Nowi is an inferior version of Tiki, Basilio looks like Nick Fury, Libra is a Lucius rip-off, Ricken is an inferior version of Merric, Miriel is a Lute rip-off, Vaike is Bartre, Lon'qu is a Nabarl with gynophobia, Gregor is an inferior Ogma, Validar is a wannabe Nergal, Virion is a Sain rip-off but stupidier, Severa feels like Raven, and the list goes on, and on, and on. There should be a thread about this....

Well, I'd wager that writing completely unique characters into a story is rather difficult when your franchise has as many characters as Fire Emblem does. As someone unfamiliar with most past Fire Emblem games, I think that (almost) all of the Awakening characters have their charms and are both likeable and memorable, even if they tend to resemble particular stereotypes/archetypes.