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Will Lucina outclass Marth?

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TheDarkMysteryMan

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She's nothing but a clone.

Even though she has moves that are so damn identical to Marth, the character with the original moveset, she's called an original character. Not on my watch. I don't play with clones, and I sure as hell am not liking this one either. I hated toon link coming back, and he's the same clone for link, and I hate this clone. Complain away.
 

TeaTwoTime

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She's nothing but a clone.

Even though she has moves that are so damn identical to Marth, the character with the original moveset, she's called an original character. Not on my watch. I don't play with clones, and I sure as hell am not liking this one either. I hated toon link coming back, and he's the same clone for link, and I hate this clone. Complain away.
Not liking cloned characters is fine, but refusing to play them out of spite isn't. :p I've explained several times why Lucina represents an exception to the typical reasons to dislike clones, rather than being another Melee Falco/Ganondorf/Young Link, but I guess most people are only interested with basing their opinions off of the final moveset. :p She's objectively more than "nothing but a clone" and I can explain why - again - if you'd like.
 
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Skyblade12

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Well, I'd wager that writing completely unique characters into a story is rather difficult when your franchise has as many characters as Fire Emblem does. :p As someone unfamiliar with most past Fire Emblem games, I think that (almost) all of the Awakening characters have their charms and are both likeable and memorable, even if they tend to resemble particular stereotypes/archetypes. :)
Yeah, that was a very surface based look at most of the characters. Lucius and Libra shar one trait, but how it affects them and their personality is very different. Aside from being Mercenaries, Severa and Raven have very little in common. Henry and Karel have nothing in common. Nowi and Tiki share just a class as well.

Pretty much all of those comparisons are invalid surface looks at one or two traits of the characters.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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She's nothing but a clone.

Even though she has moves that are so damn identical to Marth, the character with the original moveset, she's called an original character. Not on my watch. I don't play with clones, and I sure as hell am not liking this one either. I hated toon link coming back, and he's the same clone for link, and I hate this clone. Complain away.
Toon Link and Link are so vastly different, that calling them clones is nearly as far fetched as calling Link and Samus clones (think about it).
 
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TheDarkKnightNoivern

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Toon Link and Link are so vastly different, that calling them clones is nearly as far fetched as calling Link and Samus clones (think about it).
Not really because link and samus' moves are all entirely unique while toon link borrows a lot from link despite them having different stats but I see where you're coming from
 

L9999

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Yeah, that was a very surface based look at most of the characters. Lucius and Libra shar one trait, but how it affects them and their personality is very different. Aside from being Mercenaries, Severa and Raven have very little in common. Henry and Karel have nothing in common. Nowi and Tiki share just a class as well.

Pretty much all of those comparisons are invalid surface looks at one or two traits of the characters.
Severa and Raven are mad about every single thing in the world because whatever and both have family issues, and Henry and Karel are both psychopath murderers.

About this thread, I think Lucina will be a case of Fox/Falco from Melee. Hope she doesn't suck like some other swordsman named Roy.
 

smashbroskilla

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lol@ saying marth has obviously been nerfed before the game comes out. sure we can judge the mechanics we have seen so far all day but I think characters strengths and weaknesses will change before the final build
 

Skyblade12

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Severa and Raven are mad about every single thing in the world because whatever and both have family issues, and Henry and Karel are both psychopath murderers.
Well, you clearly haven't spent any time in Henry's support conversations, because that isn't his case at all. He isn't a murdering psychopath. He's a little dispassionate about killing things, yes, but he has clear feelings for his friends. Karel is a bloodthirsty lunatic. Henry is just a quiet mage who happens to accept the reality that dark magic is kind of dark. He sacrifices bunnies, but never people. He accepts that people die in war, but when told to specifically shield civilians, he does it, and he does it happily. He's nothing like Karel at all.

Similarly, Severa and Raven are both incredibly different. Raven is on a massive revenge trip the entire game. He isn't upset with the whole world, he's upset with House Ostia, and only shows hostility to others when they're working with or for House Ostia. He's questing to destroy them (and Hector specifically, due to easy access/proximity), and he isn't a warm, lovable person, but that's it.

Severa, on the other hand, is an actively hostile jerk. She has an inferiority complex built into her from growing up always being compared to Cordelia, and she takes it out on everyone in a sort of pre-emptive attack. While Raven's gruff personality is just how he is, Severa's is an affectation. If you get buddy-buddy with Raven, he's still going to seem to be a jerk, because he's just a somewhat cold person. If you become good friends with Severa, you'll see that she's kind, caring, and sensitive, and only acts hostile as a defense/coping mechanism. Again, same on the surface, vastly different if you actually look at them.
 

TheDarkMysteryMan

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Let me tell the people that think that Toon Link is vastly different from Link. He's not. Infact, the only thing that separates them from being identical is thay Toon Link has multiple hit boxes on his moves.

Every clone is separated by this mechanic. Ganandorf, Falco, Roy, Luigi, and even Young Link (which Toon Link filled that spot.) So saying that they're different is like saying you changed your mentality on what's ok to be a clone, and what you see when someone sells out and just puts them in because of the money.
 

RPGatWill

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I don't think she'll outclass him. I think she may be used a lot more by 'casuals' (Don't like the term but eh). People who play the game less and don't want to fiddle with difficult mechanics are going to gravitate more to Lucina since she'll be a bit easier to use.
 

GOofyGV

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Let me tell the people that think that Toon Link is vastly different from Link. He's not. Infact, the only thing that separates them from being identical is thay Toon Link has multiple hit boxes on his moves.
Every clone is separated by this mechanic. Ganandorf, Falco, Roy, Luigi, and even Young Link (which Toon Link filled that spot.) So saying that they're different is like saying you changed your mentality on what's ok to be a clone, and what you see when someone sells out and just puts them in because of the money.
I didn't read a single word here thats correct at all.

let's start with Link and Toon Link.
Their specials are the same moves. However they all act differently.
Link't arrows are much faster but don't travel as far, His boomerang travels back with that wind gimmich while TL's one gives damage. Links upB hits 1 time grounded and does much more knockback. While TL's does multiple hits.
The only move that you could say is the same is really the down B because the only thing that they do not share is how the explosion looks.

Their Arials are not the same either. UAir is kind of the same. Dair makes TL go straight down while link keeps his momentum the way it is for most part. They are both going to spike but Link's didn't spike in brawl and TL's did. Nair, Bair and Fair are all completely different. So I am not even going to talk about this.

Smash attacks do look alike however they are not the same. Links Usmash does 3 hits and TL's only 1. TL's Dmash does not give Vertical knockback on the first hit but instead gives pure horizontal Knockback. Link's does give vertical knockback on both hits making it nearly impossible to hit both hits. The forward smash is is kind of the same as Dsmash. Links Fsmash deals pretty high knockback on both hits, However TL will never kill with his first hit and instead sets up the 2nd hit which is actually easy to DI to.

Tilts, Utilt I'll give you that move, they are very much alike. Dtilt can spike if using Link, However not when using TL. Ftilt could also be kind of alike, nobody uses that anyway. Dash attack was alike in brawl however Link has another one now, another move that is not the same any longer.

Now on to alllllllllllllllllllllllll the other stuff, Link falls faster, is heavier, has less airspeed, lower jumps, lower upB, Link does more knockback, link has better range overall, Does more damage overall. And TL is much much smaller. and that range comes back in most of the moves.

They are not the same, they won't be the same in the next game and they will never be the same in the future either.

If there ever has been 1 "Clone" that was made very well considering not playing like it's counterpart at all it would be TL.

now about the part that I made bigger. This is nonsense
Roy and Ganon have the same moves Marth and Falcon have. The only moves Ganon and Falcon do not share is Fair. How does one have more multihit moves then the other? Fair have 1 hit in both cases to.

Roy and Marth share every single move, so again which one do you think has more multihit moves? I would like to know.
Luigi especially in brawl does not work close to how mario works and the same would go for Falco.

Now Young Link. TL did not fill that spot at all, Young Link is not relevant in any way and was the exact same as Link. I allready made clear that Link and Toon Link however do not even come close.

You are like all people free to have your own oppinion but posting stuff thats far from true is not going to help anyone. I didn't even have to defend Lucina here because the others will do that but Clones are going to be in smash and in many cases do not come that close to their counterparts viability, whatever they are better or worse.

with that, have a nice day sir!
 
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TheDarkMysteryMan

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I didn't read a single word here thats correct at all.

let's start with Link and Toon Link.
Their specials are the same moves. However they all act differently.
Link't arrows are much faster but don't travel as far, His boomerang travels back with that wind gimmich while TL's one gives damage. Links upB hits 1 time grounded and does much more knockback. While TL's does multiple hits.
The only move that you could say is the same is really the down B because the only thing that they do not share is how the explosion looks.

Their Arials are not the same either. UAir is kind of the same. Dair makes TL go straight down while link keeps his momentum the way it is for most part. They are both going to spike but Link's didn't spike in brawl and TL's did. Nair, Bair and Fair are all completely different. So I am not even going to talk about this.

Smash attacks do look alike however they are not the same. Links Usmash does 3 hits and TL's only 1. TL's Dmash does not give Vertical knockback on the first hit but instead gives pure horizontal Knockback. Link's does give vertical knockback on both hits making it nearly impossible to hit both hits. The forward smash is is kind of the same as Dsmash. Links Fsmash deals pretty high knockback on both hits, However TL will never kill with his first hit and instead sets up the 2nd hit which is actually easy to DI to.

Tilts, Utilt I'll give you that move, they are very much alike. Dtilt can spike if using Link, However not when using TL. Ftilt could also be kind of alike, nobody uses that anyway. Dash attack was alike in brawl however Link has another one now, another move that is not the same any longer.

Now on to alllllllllllllllllllllllll the other stuff, Link falls faster, is heavier, has less airspeed, lower jumps, lower upB, Link does more knockback, link has better range overall, Does more damage overall. And TL is much much smaller. and that range comes back in most of the moves.

They are not the same, they won't be the same in the next game and they will never be the same in the future either.

If there ever has been 1 "Clone" that was made very well considering not playing like it's counterpart at all it would be TL.

now about the part that I made bigger. This is nonsense
Roy and Ganon have the same moves Marth and Falcon have. The only moves Ganon and Falcon do not share is Fair. How does one have more multihit moves then the other? Fair have 1 hit in both cases to.

Roy and Marth share every single move, so again which one do you think has more multihit moves? I would like to know.
Luigi especially in brawl does not work close to how mario works and the same would go for Falco.

Now Young Link. TL did not fill that spot at all, Young Link is not relevant in any way and was the exact same as Link. I allready made clear that Link and Toon Link however do not even come close.

You are like all people free to have your own oppinion but posting stuff thats far from true is not going to help anyone. I didn't even have to defend Lucina here because the others will do that but Clones are going to be in smash and in many cases do not come that close to their counterparts viability, whatever they are better or worse.

with that, have a nice day sir!
Cool story bro, but if you want to back them up about thier velocity and gravity, than I don't care. Talk away. That wasn't what I wanted to hear about.
All I care about is that you KNOW that she's nothing but a clone with a few variations from the original and a different model. Just like eve single clone out there. Dosent matter if you protect one character that has a few modifications on the articles ,or even if they have the same animation.

Clones are clones. I think I'll take my leave now.
 

LIQUID12A

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Well duh, Lucina is Marth's descendant after all :troll:

But seriously, it's kinda early to judge a subject like this without even knowing what changes between the clones. And the trailer doesn't exactly give much insight.

I'll just label them both as speedy swordsmen, personally.
 

Chaos15

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Let me tell the people that think that Toon Link is vastly different from Link. He's not. Infact, the only thing that separates them from being identical is thay Toon Link has multiple hit boxes on his moves.

Every clone is separated by this mechanic. Ganandorf, Falco, Roy, Luigi, and even Young Link (which Toon Link filled that spot.) So saying that they're different is like saying you changed your mentality on what's ok to be a clone, and what you see when someone sells out and just puts them in because of the money.
What separates Toon Link from Link is that Toon Link doesn't suck.
 

LIQUID12A

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can somebody please remind about what's so bad about clones again...?
Some believe that clones are a waste of space and that they play identically.

It's not true, look at Toon Link and Regular Link. Or Mario and Dr Mario.
 

TheDarkKnightNoivern

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can somebody please remind about what's so bad about clones again...?
They aren't unique and are copies of other characters with slight changes. This works sometimes with link for example since toon link's different stats make for an alternate playstyle so more people can enjoy and play as the character but with lucina it really doesn't
 

GOofyGV

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can somebody please remind about what's so bad about clones again...?
If I may give you 1 small word of advice, Just don't bother. Clones are fine in my book but you'll always find people that don't like them. They are free to say and think what they want. The only thing I do not accept is people that say things that are incorrect and said without looking up their facts :)

Clones are fine!!!
 

Comet7

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They aren't unique and are copies of other characters with slight changes. This works sometimes with link for example since toon link's different stats make for an alternate playstyle so more people can enjoy and play as the character but with lucina it really doesn't
well of course they're not unique, what do you expect? you're also being really quick to jump to the conclusion that it won't matter with lucina.
If I may give you 1 small word of advice, Just don't bother. Clones are fine in my book but you'll always find people that don't like them. They are free to say and think what they want. The only thing I do not accept is people that say things that are incorrect and said without looking up their facts :)

Clones are fine!!!
i know, but sometimes i feel like correcting stupid people
 

LIQUID12A

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How is it a waste of a slot in the slightest?
There's no limit to slots
Don't look at me, I'm just posting what I see others complain about :p

There are tons of arguments to the slot fact, but I'd rather prefer to not derail and simply state that I have no issue with so called clones as long as they differ notably.
 

TheDarkKnightNoivern

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well of course they're not unique, what do you expect? you're also being really quick to jump to the conclusion that it won't matter with lucina.
I was just answering you're question of why people don't like them, it's because they aren't unique.
What I mean is that lucina is extremely similar to marth unlike link to toon link for example, from what I've seen she's essentially falco in melee to fox, with only minor differences from the original character.
Don't look at me, I'm just posting what I see others complain about :p

There are tons of arguments to the slot fact, but I'd rather prefer to not derail and simply state that I have no issue with so called clones as long as they differ notably.
I think I phrased that a bit wrong, it wasn't directed at you, more towards the people who make that argument
 
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GOofyGV

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well of course they're not unique, what do you expect? you're also being really quick to jump to the conclusion that it won't matter with lucina.

i know, but sometimes i feel like correcting stupid people
I know how you feel my friend, I know how you feel
 

Robertman2

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I do think Lucina will outclass Marth due to lack of tipper, and Marth being severely nerfed.
 

LIQUID12A

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I do think Lucina will outclass Marth due to lack of tipper, and Marth being severely nerfed.
Marth being nerfed I can understand, but how does one tell the lack of tipper?

im not one to look at the small details so i couldnt tell
 

Banjodorf

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Marth being nerfed I can understand, but how does one tell the lack of tipper?

im not one to look at the small details so i couldnt tell
It's been stated that unlike Marth, Lucina will have equal damage throughout all parts of the sword.
 

JUr

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And without tipper you don't have to rely on spacing and could play more in a 'rushdown offense' style :grin:
 

LIQUID12A

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And without tipper you don't have to rely on spacing and could play more in a 'rushdown offense' style :grin:
why would you play a spacing game with a swordsman not named Taskmaster :troll:

I, for one, am not big on the idea of pokes and safe jabs with a Marth clone. Isn't rushdown/hyper-offensive how Marth operates anyway?
 

Jade_Rock55

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why would you play a spacing game with a swordsman not named Taskmaster :troll:

I, for one, am not big on the idea of pokes and safe jabs with a Marth clone. Isn't rushdown/hyper-offensive how Marth operates anyway?
Well now you don't need to aim your hits you can just keep hitting.
 

RPGatWill

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not quite since if marth wants to combo just don't hit with the tip -.-
Yeah, Marth will have more launching power with the tip at his disposal. Lucina doesn't have to worry as much about the tipper mechanic, but she may have some finisher trouble because of it.
 

_Sheik

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^ This. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure I can keep blowing the opponents away and out of the screen with Marth's Up-Smash, like I always do.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Yeah, Marth will have more launching power with the tip at his disposal. Lucina doesn't have to worry as much about the tipper mechanic, but she may have some finisher trouble because of it.
overall sakurai mention their identical in every aspect but the sword stuff. so even the landing lag could mean good thing for marth that we seen lucina do.
 

MLSword

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Captain Falcon can achieve S-support with all characters. Everybody is in love with Captain Falcon.

...but jokes aside, I'm definitely sensing that Lucina might be faster and more air based than Marth. I was with my friend when he tried Marth at Smash Fest, and he felt like Marth's air game was nerfed. I don't think, however, that Lucina's entire blade will have the same power as Marth's tipper; that would almost certainly make her way stronger than Marth and doesn't strike me as smart balancing. I think her sword will probably deal an average amount of damage that's weaker than Marth's tipper, but stronger than Marth hitting with any other part of his sword.
All I have to say about balancing is... Meta Knight
 

MLSword

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As people have stated several times throughout this thread, Lucina appears to be faster, which I think she will be. Also, people saying that without tipper is really bad but to be fare remember Marths problem- He has trouble killing at high percents while Lucina won't since she won't have to get just the tip of the sword to take out the stock.
 

LIQUID12A

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As people have stated several times throughout this thread, Lucina appears to be faster, which I think she will be. Also, people saying that without tipper is really bad but to be fare remember Marths problem- He has trouble killing at high percents while Lucina won't since she won't have to get just the tip of the sword to take out the stock.
Which makes Lucina arguably safer.

Welcome to Smashboards, btw :)
 
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