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Will Fox shine again? - Fox Smash Switch speculation thread
- Thread starter Zeallyx
- Start date
Rhus
We're going top speed!
Care to elaborate what you mean?
Forgive my English is not very good, that's why I keep it simple. in the part of fox in the blog says: "his specials do not leave him open for counterattacks". maybe they want to tell us that their side b was fixed
Rhus
We're going top speed!
Oh I see, no worries! Your english is fine!
I am not holding out much hope for the Side B being fixed at this point, but we can hope. It is a strange comment though - I'm not sure if he's referring to something in particular but his UpB hitbox has been drastically buffed (unsafe to edgeguard now) and his shine has been sped up on all accounts as well. I would like Fox's specials to be a little more useful in this iteration.
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Rhus
We're going top speed!
There's something very satisfyingly ironic about Sheik getting stage spiked by Fox.
I found it, you can see it during the presentation of Piranha Plant at 34:32
Rhus
We're going top speed!
They new mechanics seem to benefit Fox so much that I can't even be mad about the Illusion nerf. Fox's speed will definitely be the best in the cast again.
I'm also loving the redone animations for Fair, Bair, Usmash, and all his throws. Sakurai's team did a really good job on his model and movement.
I'm also loving the redone animations for Fair, Bair, Usmash, and all his throws. Sakurai's team did a really good job on his model and movement.
he got numerous buffs actually... up smash has increased horizontal and vertical range, shine is frame 3 now and appears to be slightly larger hitbox, fair does more damage and has a landing hit box, up B was heavily buffed both hitbox and damage
side b was only thing nerfed that I have seen, oh and forward smash has slightly less range
side b was only thing nerfed that I have seen, oh and forward smash has slightly less range
fair has landing hitbox?
Do you have any clip on this?
its on the ultimate spreadsheet with each characters changes
PlushyFenn
Smash Rookie
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I know this is a tad odd to say but is anyone a bit worried about his up/side special? Those two moves are pretty much his only means of recovery. Most of the higher tiers seem to be weapon users (ie swords and chains), essentially characters who can easily space out their opponent. Fox is typically good at being up, close and personal, meaning that most of the high tiers seem to be able to space him out quite effectively. Typically if you are being distanced you can be prone to launching attacks meaning that his recovery will have to be at the highest priority if he has any chance of being a good character. He quite obviously has had a few nerfs, though the major ones have been to his recovery. Up special's distance has been decreased and the start-up and distance has decreased for side special essentially making it only viable to side special into the ledge, not to mention the whole "side special into shield" thing.
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up B, if it was nerfed distance wise, was very minimal, it got a massive hit box and knockback buff though, which stage spikes opponents that go for what used to be the easy gimp.. u can also drift after side b in the air now
i am a bit worried by the sword characters in general being OP though
i am a bit worried by the sword characters in general being OP though
and the fair help his recovery :D
PlushyFenn
Smash Rookie
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RIP Illusion, lol
I think it's just you, arzo.cl. It may have gotten an aesthetic change though I haven't seen any talk about it online. If it is then it seems it only is ever-so-slightly. But who knows, maybe my 5 year old computer is just slow. As a side note, I was doing a little bit of thinking and, while it has been nerfed a little bit I think something that needs to be factored into the discussion is the new launch rate dubbed "the balloon mechanic". When applied to Fox the problem seems to be finding a follow-up when you launch opponents horizontally, obviously meaning that more kills will have to be done vertically, as to say off the top. This isn't applicable to all moves as back-aerial seems to do more knockback (now being more of a kill move than anything), but it seems to be generally the case. While this new style may have given Fox a nerf in the regards that it will be hard to juggle opponents mid-air (the second hit of up-aerial does less damage), the increased damage on his Fire Fox seems to have also implemented a new kill option in its place. Unfortunately this may lead to fox now just spamming neutral-aerial and dash attack to get any reliable damage, while only hoping to not get perfect-shielded in the process. Mind you, this is all just mediocre speculation, whaddya guys think?
I think it's just you, arzo.cl. It may have gotten an aesthetic change though I haven't seen any talk about it online. If it is then it seems it only is ever-so-slightly. But who knows, maybe my 5 year old computer is just slow. As a side note, I was doing a little bit of thinking and, while it has been nerfed a little bit I think something that needs to be factored into the discussion is the new launch rate dubbed "the balloon mechanic". When applied to Fox the problem seems to be finding a follow-up when you launch opponents horizontally, obviously meaning that more kills will have to be done vertically, as to say off the top. This isn't applicable to all moves as back-aerial seems to do more knockback (now being more of a kill move than anything), but it seems to be generally the case. While this new style may have given Fox a nerf in the regards that it will be hard to juggle opponents mid-air (the second hit of up-aerial does less damage), the increased damage on his Fire Fox seems to have also implemented a new kill option in its place. Unfortunately this may lead to fox now just spamming neutral-aerial and dash attack to get any reliable damage, while only hoping to not get perfect-shielded in the process. Mind you, this is all just mediocre speculation, whaddya guys think?
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Skarfelt
Smash Journeyman
Got some damage values for Fox with the 1v1 modifier. Counted off poor quality footage, so take with a grain of salt:
Grounded moves:
Jab1: 2.1%
Jab2: 1.2%
Full Jab: 13.2%
Dash Attack: 7.6%
USmash: 18.9%
FSmash: 17.?% (probably 17.6)
Aerials:
Nair: 11.3%
Nair (late) [SH]: 5.1%
Fair [SH]: 13.4%
Bair: 16.4%
Bair [SH]: 13.9%
Uair: 18.9%
Uair [SH]: 16.1% (16.065 to be exact)
Uair [staled once]: 16.3%
Uair2 [SH]: 10.7%
Dair multihit: 1.8%
Dair final hit: 3.7%
Specials:
a.Illusion: 6.3%
Grab stuff:
Pummel: 1.3%
DThrow: 8.8%
UThrow: 10%
FThrow: 8.8%%
BThrow: 10%%
I got like three different values for UTilt, and I have no idea which is accurate to each hitbox:
UTilt: 9.8?
UTilt: 7.3%?
a.UTilt: 7.5%
Overall, Uair actually got a damage nerf to 15 base from 16 base. I think USmash got the same. FSmash is wayyyy stronger in knockback, but damage is unchanged from base. Fair got a base damage buff, not sure what to because I suck at Maths and dunno how to get to the base damage past the modifiers (short hop 0.85, freshness 1.05, 1v1 1.2). Illusion had a damage buff too. Also, Throw damage doesn't stale for some reason? It's very odd, but I only saw values of 8.8% on DThrow even two were used back to back.
Grounded moves:
Jab1: 2.1%
Jab2: 1.2%
Full Jab: 13.2%
Dash Attack: 7.6%
USmash: 18.9%
FSmash: 17.?% (probably 17.6)
Aerials:
Nair: 11.3%
Nair (late) [SH]: 5.1%
Fair [SH]: 13.4%
Bair: 16.4%
Bair [SH]: 13.9%
Uair: 18.9%
Uair [SH]: 16.1% (16.065 to be exact)
Uair [staled once]: 16.3%
Uair2 [SH]: 10.7%
Dair multihit: 1.8%
Dair final hit: 3.7%
Specials:
a.Illusion: 6.3%
Grab stuff:
Pummel: 1.3%
DThrow: 8.8%
UThrow: 10%
FThrow: 8.8%%
BThrow: 10%%
I got like three different values for UTilt, and I have no idea which is accurate to each hitbox:
UTilt: 9.8?
UTilt: 7.3%?
a.UTilt: 7.5%
Overall, Uair actually got a damage nerf to 15 base from 16 base. I think USmash got the same. FSmash is wayyyy stronger in knockback, but damage is unchanged from base. Fair got a base damage buff, not sure what to because I suck at Maths and dunno how to get to the base damage past the modifiers (short hop 0.85, freshness 1.05, 1v1 1.2). Illusion had a damage buff too. Also, Throw damage doesn't stale for some reason? It's very odd, but I only saw values of 8.8% on DThrow even two were used back to back.
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checking gameplay, I see his persecution quite solid and more effective than in smash 4.
in general I keep optimistic
Chibi-Chan
Smash Journeyman
What's wrong with his Illusion now?
PlushyFenn
Smash Rookie
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It has a slightly decreased range, a slightly increased start-up time (the point in time where Fox is about to use the move) and, most importantly, if you attempt to use the move to go through an opponent who's holding a shield up it will now instead place you right in front of their shield, open for a wide variety of punishes. The positives are that it is now stronger (gives more damage) and it might be a little faster than normal, likely to make up for the increased start-up time. Then again, this move has commonly been used in sm4sh (in my experience) as a recovery or panic option for many rather than a damaging option, meaning that many will have to learn to stop using this move, learn to use it offensively, use it as a ledge-recovery option or just learn a new technique you can use with the move.
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Chibi-Chan
Smash Journeyman
Never seen anyone use this move outside of recovery. Seems suicidal mid-stage even pre-nerfs. Maybe now you can Sakurai combo with it, I'll test.
Chibi-Chan
Smash Journeyman
Dtilt does hit opponents on the ledge. It pops them up at mid-high% and just off the ledge before that. Since it's not straight up, you need to use Nair or Fair to followup, so that's not as good as Uair/Bair.
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Skarfelt
Smash Journeyman
Looked into UTilt a bit more, here's an explanation for the stuff. On the first active frame, Fox's leg is stuck a decent amount further up in Ultimate compared to Smash 4. The hitbox is probably just around his leg's new position - it'll anti-air quicker, but it'll miss people at the ledge/maybe even miss crouching Kirby etc.
maybe you can connect to fair footstool in low percentages
PlushyFenn
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If so then we may be able to benefit off of the balloon knockback. Launch rate will be a major problem with combos now so the ability to preform the fair will be great (much like his laser, it deals no knockback). If we try to knock opponents to the sides via bair or nair then it may be possible to preform the fair footstool combo simply due to that. At the very least we will be able to connect fair off of the balloon knockback to it to hopefully lead to another combo.
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Skarfelt
Smash Journeyman
Okay, I've worked out how Up Tilt works. It's much simpler than I originally thought.
Basically, the way it prioritises hitboxes is different now. In Smash 4, it prioritised the sweetspot above everything else, the sourspot basically only happened on the front hit. In the pic, the red hitbox was the sweetspot in Smash 4, and you can see how it takes priority over the other hitboxes. In Ultimate, this got changed so it now prioritises the other hitboxes. This basically means that we have to space Up Tilt better to get the sweetspot with more damage. Additionally, that sweetspot Up Tilt got nerfed by 1% base damage from 9 to 8. The move prioritising the sourspot (6% base) is probably why it seemed like they'd normalised the values between grounded and aerial Up Tilts. I mentioned it before, but Up Tilt now moves in a slightly different arc. This makes Up Tilt reach in front of Fox before the sweetspot ends, so you can still get the sweetspot on opponents in front of you. Of course, this is all theory and I may be wrong, but that's what I think happened.
Smash 4 Up Tilt:
Sweetspot Grounded:
Sourspot Grounded:
Sweetspot Aerial:
Sourspot Aerial:
Late Aerial:
Sweetspot Grounded (front)
You can compare the last image with the first one and see that Fox's foot is slightly further forward, allowing him to still get the sweetspot here when he couldn't before.
Huge thanks to ZickNemils on Discord for recording the footage!
Basically, the way it prioritises hitboxes is different now. In Smash 4, it prioritised the sweetspot above everything else, the sourspot basically only happened on the front hit. In the pic, the red hitbox was the sweetspot in Smash 4, and you can see how it takes priority over the other hitboxes. In Ultimate, this got changed so it now prioritises the other hitboxes. This basically means that we have to space Up Tilt better to get the sweetspot with more damage. Additionally, that sweetspot Up Tilt got nerfed by 1% base damage from 9 to 8. The move prioritising the sourspot (6% base) is probably why it seemed like they'd normalised the values between grounded and aerial Up Tilts. I mentioned it before, but Up Tilt now moves in a slightly different arc. This makes Up Tilt reach in front of Fox before the sweetspot ends, so you can still get the sweetspot on opponents in front of you. Of course, this is all theory and I may be wrong, but that's what I think happened.
Smash 4 Up Tilt:
Sweetspot Grounded:
Sourspot Grounded:
Sweetspot Aerial:
Sourspot Aerial:
Late Aerial:
Sweetspot Grounded (front)
You can compare the last image with the first one and see that Fox's foot is slightly further forward, allowing him to still get the sweetspot here when he couldn't before.
Huge thanks to ZickNemils on Discord for recording the footage!
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Very cool info.. im in rotation right now on ultimate so its hard to lab or practice anything but dash attack followups r like all gone.. and i cant figure out what can connect out of which hit boxes of up tilt.. im playin hit n run fox cuz i have no idea what connects lol but i hope something connects into strings to start the vortex cuz rite now im strugglin a bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KncqANLz04
1:40
it seems that the new hitbox in the fair works
0:08
this with the dair can come to be useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_on6SdM1Vc
2:50
Fox side B KILL
1:40
it seems that the new hitbox in the fair works
0:08
this with the dair can come to be useful
****, they deleted the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_on6SdM1Vc
2:50
Fox side B KILL
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Please do not double post; edit your messages instead.
Rhus
We're going top speed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KncqANLz04
1:40
it seems that the new hitbox in the fair works
0:08
this with the dair can come to be useful
****, they deleted the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_on6SdM1Vc
2:50
Fox side B KILL
While it would be sick to have that as a kill move (can I please combo into it for a kill), Fox was at 170 when he got hit. Fox is one of the lightest characters in the game and my understanding is that is far outside of the conventional kill range in this game. If it killed around 130....Then we'd be in business.
yooo ok so I finally got to sit in training mode and figure out movement tonight....
so I ended up putting my control stick setting to high sensitivity, Im not positive, it may be placebo, but it felt like it was more responsive when moving in that you dont have to move the stick as quick/hard to do quick dash direction changes, so heads up, it may be something you guys want to try is high sensitivity
about movement
you can literally just flick your stick in the same direction as FAST as you can, so right, right right right right and you will just trot across the stage, theres ZERO skid like in smash 4 if you foxtrot to quickly in the same direction.. you can fox trot left and right about as fast as you can change direction after resetting to neutral.
and i found another thing.. you can be in strait up running animation.. if you let go of the stick and let reset to neutral and then instantly hard dash the opposite direction you can cancel the skid animation out of a FULL RUN and dash back the other way and not be sliding like in smash 4
so essentially you can be dash dancing and changing your distance of your dash dance by cancelling out of run into dashes again, it does require a longer distance than in melee to cancel out of run but it is still SOOO good.. once it is mastered it is going to open up so much movement wise for a character like fox. this game is so sick
also you can buffer stuff out of dash, so like, you can input a dash, then immediately press down tilt after the dash and it will down tilt on the first available frame in ur dash turning to a run.. think its like frame 14 or 15 or whatever. so u can buffer it instead of trying to time it, you wont slide or skid like in smash 4
fox dash attack into instant rising nair seems to be true, you can then chase their decision after that, i would alot of times catch them with a down tilt upon landing or another nair, or another dash attack as most times people are just DIing away, Im not even close to being good at it yet either and was still linking some cool ****
shine spike is 100% a thing and legit, u just want to try to catch them after their jump, drag down fairs seem almost dead, i was able to do it once, but its very difficult because the new landing hit box knocks them up
rising nair in neutral is legit amazing... Down air, like auto cancel Dairs seem to have a worse hit box to the side of fox than in smash 4, like a lot of times i was strait up getting hit out of it, but I could be wrong, you can still get a ton of follow ups tho if you do land it
dont waste your time on down throws, i think forward throws for possible tech chases and up throws to get them above you to try to catch landings are going to be the new go to
so I ended up putting my control stick setting to high sensitivity, Im not positive, it may be placebo, but it felt like it was more responsive when moving in that you dont have to move the stick as quick/hard to do quick dash direction changes, so heads up, it may be something you guys want to try is high sensitivity
about movement
you can literally just flick your stick in the same direction as FAST as you can, so right, right right right right and you will just trot across the stage, theres ZERO skid like in smash 4 if you foxtrot to quickly in the same direction.. you can fox trot left and right about as fast as you can change direction after resetting to neutral.
and i found another thing.. you can be in strait up running animation.. if you let go of the stick and let reset to neutral and then instantly hard dash the opposite direction you can cancel the skid animation out of a FULL RUN and dash back the other way and not be sliding like in smash 4
so essentially you can be dash dancing and changing your distance of your dash dance by cancelling out of run into dashes again, it does require a longer distance than in melee to cancel out of run but it is still SOOO good.. once it is mastered it is going to open up so much movement wise for a character like fox. this game is so sick
also you can buffer stuff out of dash, so like, you can input a dash, then immediately press down tilt after the dash and it will down tilt on the first available frame in ur dash turning to a run.. think its like frame 14 or 15 or whatever. so u can buffer it instead of trying to time it, you wont slide or skid like in smash 4
fox dash attack into instant rising nair seems to be true, you can then chase their decision after that, i would alot of times catch them with a down tilt upon landing or another nair, or another dash attack as most times people are just DIing away, Im not even close to being good at it yet either and was still linking some cool ****
shine spike is 100% a thing and legit, u just want to try to catch them after their jump, drag down fairs seem almost dead, i was able to do it once, but its very difficult because the new landing hit box knocks them up
rising nair in neutral is legit amazing... Down air, like auto cancel Dairs seem to have a worse hit box to the side of fox than in smash 4, like a lot of times i was strait up getting hit out of it, but I could be wrong, you can still get a ton of follow ups tho if you do land it
dont waste your time on down throws, i think forward throws for possible tech chases and up throws to get them above you to try to catch landings are going to be the new go to