Will Fox shine again? - Fox Smash Switch speculation thread

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#6
If anything, at the least we'll get Chicken Walker Final Smash and the voice actor feeling bad about their last performance.
For some reason when I read this I should imagine Fox sounding apologetic in the game for how he sounded in the previous game... lul

Leave the Chicken Walker for the chicken Falco tho, Landmaster is probably fine for fox
 

AlphaSSB

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#7
Fox is a lock. No way they're getting rid of him. Plus, his silhouette was seen in the trailer.

As for changes made to him, maybe a change in his design, or new Final Smash?
 

PF9

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#8
Looking back I thought 64 3D should have brought back Assault's VAs for Star Fox and Star Wolf, and ported over Assault's arrangements of certain music tracks where appropriate while making new ones in a similar style to fill in the gaps. Not saying it wasn't a good game, I'm saying it could have taken more advantage of the superiority of the 3DS to the N64.

That being said, Fox is one of the original 12. He and the rest of them are safe as far as we are all concerned.
 

IsmaR

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#11
I hadn't actually thought about it much before, but the Gravmaster is also an option to differentiate the final smashes.



I still think it would go Arwing/Walker for Fox, Land/Gravmaster for Falco, and Wolfen/Hunter for Wolf (if he returns at least).
 

verysleepywolf

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#12
i know i'm on the wrong forum to admit i don't like melee, but i will grant you that it's when Fox looked his best. the short snoot and little ears they've given him lately don't suit him. and his clothes were simpler too, not so over-designed.
This. The character designs in Star Fox became hideous, hopefully Sakurai addresses this and makes them look better? That might be too much to hope for.
 

Ffamran

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#19
Just did some checks on Fox using YouTube's frame-by-frame viewer. Use , to move back a frame and . to move forward a frame. They're also the < and > keys on most keyboards.

Note: this is based on a demo build, so it is subject to change and I am human, so I will make errors.

From Fox's introductory video: jab 1 startup, rapid jab finisher startup, Fire Fox launch, Dtilt startup, Fox Illusion startup, Reflector startup, grounded Blaster startup and recovery, and estimated aerial Blaster startup and recovery.

Jab 1 is frame 2, so unchanged from any of the games really. I don't think Fox's jab 1 was anything, but frame 2. Anyway, it happens very quickly right after the cut of his taunt show off. The starting frame is when Fox shifts from his idle to readying his left fist for a jab. The Ice Climbers get hit on frame 2. Jab 2 and rapid jab I won't be able to get from this video since I don't know how to factor in hit stun for stuff like this. There's also the issue of not knowing the active frames which doesn't matter for projectiles, but do for more physical hits.

Rapid jab finisher is frame 3, so the same as in Smash 4. The starting frame is when Fox suddenly shifts from his rapid jab animation to readying himself for a turnaround back kick.

Fire Fox's startup is around frame 43 or 44. The starting frame is right when Fox glows red after his sidestep's ending animation. Frame 43 is when Fox looks like he's starting to move and frame 44 is when he's definitely moving forward. ZSS looks like she gets hit on frame 46 and definitely frame 47. Frame 46 has a red sparkle on her head, but that might be her attack sparkle thing while frame 47 is when Fox makes contact with her hurtbox. Anyway, its launch frame is probably frame 43 which was his launch frame in Smash 4, so unchanged in that.

Dtilt is frame 7, so unchanged from Smash 4 and I think the rest of the series. At least every game after 64 since Melee Fox's Dtilt was frame 7. The starting frame is when Fox suddenly shifts from his idle to crouching to ready his sweep. Duck Hunt gets hit on frame 7.

Fox Illusion is around frame 25 or 26. The starting frame is the blue sparkle appearing and Fox shifting from his idle to moving his right leg which I'm assuming is him beginning his crouch for Fox Illusion's pose. Fox begins to move on frame 25 and Duck Hunt gets hit on frame 26. The clip cuts before we can see Fox enter his idle animation or perform another action. I'm not so sure about this one because of the blue sparkle. I don't know if it's Fox who's causing it or maybe Duck Hunt because characters have a sparkle when they fast-fall. The problem is it appears between them and if you ignore it, Fox appears to enter his Fox Illusion pose about 2 frame later when the sparkle appears which in that case would make Fox Illusion frame around 23 and 24 when hitting Duck Hunt. Perhaps it did gain startup or maybe it didn't. Wait and see, I suppose.

Reflector is frame 3. The starting frame is when Fox suddenly shifts from his somersault that's part of his neutral/forward jump animation to being upright and Reflector activating. Wolf gets hit on frame 3 as indicated by his sudden shift from his neutral/forward jump animation changing to him looking like he's getting hit. It probably has some hit lag modifier like in the past since Wolf gets electrocuted on frame 4. So, compared to Smash 4, that's 3 frames faster as Smash 4's Reflector hit's startup is 6 frames.

Grounded Blaster seems to be frame 11. The starting frame is when Fox reaches down to his Blaster and the hit frame is when he experiences recoil after the laser materializes. If that's the case, then Fox's next laser is frame 21, 10 frames later, and Fox begins his jump startup animation on frame 46. After two lasers, his recovery is 25 frames. I say this since when I looked at Falco's, his second laser seemed to add recovery frames, +3, but that's probably because his can cause hitstun while Fox's can't and maybe Fox does gain recovery the more fires, but the video doesn't show him firing once. Regardless, 11 startup would be in line and the same as Smash 4 and 25 recovery frames after two and perhaps with one laser is faster than in post 1.1.0? Smash 4 where he had 29 recovery frames; 11 startup and a 40 FAF where recovery frames equals FAF minus startup.

Aerial Blaster can be estimated since in Smash 4 and I think the other games, it's faster on startup and in recovery. In Smash 4, aerial Blaster's startup is 9 and FAF is 38, so -2. If that's the case, then aerial Blaster could be 9 startup and 23 recovery. For something to tack on damage, that seems all right.

Also as a reconfirmation, Fox's jump is frame 3 like Falco, Marth, Shulk, Zelda, and everyone else's, really.

I don't recall where else Fox appears in the Smash Ultimate Direct other than his introduction sections where he only does Blaster, B-throw, a taunt, and his Final Smash.

Edit: Checked his Brawl frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/foxs-framework-complete.240800/, and Reflector has the same startup as Brawl's now. Blaster's recovery is closer to Brawl's which has a 20 frame recovery -- listed as cooldown. Smash 4's projectile frame data was an abomination at times. Some characters had ridiculously good frame data for their projectiles while others had ridiculously bad frame data for their projectiles.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Forgot to edit this post. Incorrect jump frame at the time. All jumps are frame 3.
 
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DT Raw

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#21
does anyone have any more info on that shine reflecting sonic's attack? did anyone get any more testing on that and also if shine semi spikes off stage again?
 

Rhus

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#22
does anyone have any more info on that shine reflecting sonic's attack? did anyone get any more testing on that and also if shine semi spikes off stage again?
I've scoured around for any information on it but no one seems to have experimented with the shine. I can't even find it mentioned anywhere. the most interesting thing about this is that the shine's pulsing changes on hit - it's clearly intentional if the animation is responding like that.

Thank you for that video, Skarfelt Skarfelt . Fox looks good but I will be disappointed if they didn't scale his movement well with the other characters in the new engine. I'm a little worried that he will lose his identity as cross-up and outpace king, but only time will tell.

Illusion changes are pretty dumb if they go through. Sm4sh was the only game we got with a usable on-stage Illusion and it would be a shame to see it go. There are other ways to nerf it that don't involve butchering it to obscurity.
 

DT Raw

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#23
someone mentioned it looks like the reflector might have had respawn invincibility but that shouldnt affect wether sonic gets knocked back or not on a forward smash
 

Rhus

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#24
Yeah I THINK Fox's respawn invincibility ran out but I honestly am not sure. Either way, Sonic should not have take damage, knockback, and the reflector changed animation and Fox turns around to face Sonic after the hit.

Sounds a lot like a counter.
 

Rhus

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#27
Oh that is very strange.

Could have a lasting hitbox now, but I still feel like we're missing a lot of info.

Also by the look of that knockback and startup (and perhaps misleading visuals to match the hitbox), we may have shinespikes once again.
 

xPROFx

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#29
Fox still had spawn invincibility while getting hit. I assume what happened is, guy was mashing down-b, it got cancelled by sonic hit and then it was used again.
Ok, figured that out. Guy was indeed mashing down-b, he just released shine right before hit, then used it again)
https://imgur.com/a/P5KH5Ns
R. I. P. shiny counter

P.S. is shine now frame 1?
 
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DT Raw

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#30
Fox still had spawn invincibility while getting hit. I assume what happened is, guy was mashing down-b, it got cancelled by sonic hit and then it was used again.
but sonic only attacked once, he could not have cancelled his shine, then got hit by the next shine all in the same forward smash

The new shine doubles as a sword counter now
what do u mean by this
 
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#31
what do u mean by this
From what I saw.any character attacking even while not using a projectile that comes into contact with shine frames will cause a shine counteraatack to activate.......which acts similar to a sword characters counter special move(if they have it).a special which a lot of swords characters are knowned for having in smash and the n there are others that don't like little ma c and palutena
 
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DT Raw

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#32
From what I saw.any character attacking even while not using a projectile that comes into contact with shine frames will cause a shine counteraatack to activate.......which acts similar to a sword characters counter special move(if they have it).a special which a lot of swords characters are knowned for having in smash and the n there are others that don't like little ma c and palutena
did you come to this conclusion based on that clip you saw in this thread, or you witnessed it in other clips or while playing yourself? And does it have a certain amount of frames upon activation that will do this, or the entirety of it being up? I assume upon activation it has a few frame window that it can counter attacks?
 

Ffamran

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#33
did anyone get any more testing on that and also if shine semi spikes off stage again?
Someone already noted it, but yes, it has a low hit angle. Check his introductory video that Kain6th Kain6th posted and go to the part where's fighting Wolf. When Wolf gets hit, he's sent slightly diagonally down. I'm not sure what angle that is, but it might be the same as in Smash 4 I think after 1.1.0 since that's when Reflector was changed. Smash 4 Reflector has two hit angles, 10 degrees and 40 degrees, I think the 10 degree one is on land since it would just push people back while the 40 degree one is in the air which would be low hit angle compared to something with 60 degrees or a 361 hit angle which is more or less horizontal.

Anyway, if Reflector has low enough recovery, it could be all right as an attack. In Smash 4, it had 34 recovery frames, in Brawl, had 18 recovery frames (21 FAF - 3 startup), and in Melee, it had 39 recovery frames, but you could jump cancel starting on frame 4, so that didn't matter. Brawl's would be stupid, but something around 23-25 recovery could work. Anything under Smash 4's would be an improvement, though.

Melee Fox's frame data if anyone's interested: http://dx.smashbr0s.com/chara/cters/fox/. It has stuff on hit angles and knockback that the thread on Smashboards doesn't. It's in Japanese, though, so use Google translate on keywords like the characters for "overall" means total frames.

Fox looks good but I will be disappointed if they didn't scale his movement well with the other characters in the new engine.
Air speed and aerial mobility I'd assume would be scaled since Fox's ground speed is already good. He has the fastest dash* (2.4) over Little Mac (2.05) and Falco (1.9), the fourth fastest run speed, the third fastest walk speed, the fastest fall speed, and his jump is pretty good. The only thing Fox wasn't so great at was aerial mobility; his air acceleration was average at 0.08, but his air speed was low at 0.96. Mario's not really average in air speed in Smash, but compared to Mario's 1.15 that a 0.19 difference.

If they do increase his ground speed, it probably won't be much. He'll still be fast on the ground, but what would matter would be his aerial mobility if everyone gets faster there.

* Dash speed is not the same as run speed. Dash occurs before run. Here's a chart on it that was from Smash 4's launch: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333.
 
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Rhus

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#35
Ohhh yes you are right. Thanks for slowing it down for us all to see.

On the bright side, that means the shine is back to being very fast and can just be tapped on and off - that's actually a very nice change. Looks like the hitbox is noticeably larger too. This could help his disadvantage state quite a bit.
 

DT Raw

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#36
thanks for figuring this out, sadly no counter, but wait, you are sure on frame 1 shine??? wont that mean he can mash this to get out of combos and such? as well as approach in the air with it possibly since it has a frame 1 on it??

Someone already noted it, but yes, it has a low hit angle. Check his introductory video that Kain6th Kain6th posted and go to the part where's fighting Wolf. When Wolf gets hit, he's sent slightly diagonally down. I'm not sure what angle that is, but it might be the same as in Smash 4 I think after 1.1.0 since that's when Reflector was changed. Smash 4 Reflector has two hit angles, 10 degrees and 40 degrees, I think the 10 degree one is on land since it would just push people back while the 40 degree one is in the air which would be low hit angle compared to something with 60 degrees or a 361 hit angle which is more or less horizontal.

Anyway, if Reflector has low enough recovery, it could be all right as an attack. In Smash 4, it had 34 recovery frames, in Brawl, had 18 recovery frames (21 FAF - 3 startup), and in Melee, it had 39 recovery frames, but you could jump cancel starting on frame 4, so that didn't matter. Brawl's would be stupid, but something around 23-25 recovery could work. Anything under Smash 4's would be an improvement, though.

Melee Fox's frame data if anyone's interested: http://dx.smashbr0s.com/chara/cters/fox/. It has stuff on hit angles and knockback that the thread on Smashboards doesn't. It's in Japanese, though, so use Google translate on keywords like the characters for "overall" means total frames.


Air speed and aerial mobility I'd assume would be scaled since Fox's ground speed is already good. He has the fastest dash* (2.4) over Little Mac (2.05) and Falco (1.9), the fourth fastest run speed, the third fastest walk speed, the fastest fall speed, and his jump is pretty good. The only thing Fox wasn't so great at was aerial mobility; his air acceleration was average at 0.08, but his air speed was low at 0.96. Mario's not really average in air speed in Smash, but compared to Mario's 1.15 that a 0.19 difference.

If they do increase his ground speed, it probably won't be much. He'll still be fast on the ground, but what would matter would be his aerial mobility if everyone gets faster there.

* Dash speed is not the same as run speed. Dash occurs before run. Here's a chart on it that was from Smash 4's launch: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333.

if they dont buff fox's run speed relative to the rest of the cast's buff, then than nets fox yet another nerf among a long list of them apparently.. something aint right

slowing the shine down, it does appear to come out on frame 1... how can we figure out the end lag though is there a way to know when he releases it? either way it seems it is extremely faster than then 41 faf- 6 startup (35) of smash 4
 

DT Raw

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#38
End lag for shine looks about 6-7 frames
my god... thats down from 40???? are they trying to introduce melee fox possibly? you can do anything out of dash/run.... this introduces fox sprint shine no?? did we just discover why other parts of fox were nerfed?
 

xPROFx

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#39
Key word here is LOOKS, treehouse footage not the best thing for analyzing frame data)
Also, game will change dozen times before release (and after)
 

DT Raw

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#40
question, what frames do you get for his up smash? for first active hit frame and FAF, I just got a wierd number that dont seem right
 
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