Will anyone be willing to play Special Brawl Fast mode for tourney's?

[Finkledoodoo]

This is for the competitive community, if you don't want to compete or think brawl should be left alone, take your lack of heart somewhere else. If you flame me, I don't care, I go to tourney's, where worse has been said. Besides, nobody knows finkledoodoo because I just use my real name in smash tourney's.

I hear that the competitive aspect of the game doesn't really suit some of the hardcore competitors. (which is important, since they will keep the game alive years after it's time, if that happens) Most people believe that tournaments are becoming a battle of camping and well, I think it's going to be true. Heck, when I play mk to win, I don't leave the edge, it's where my best advantage is.

So the topic of this thread is the question I want to ask our competitive community...

I've tested it out and I think that it's the way to go. Here are some of the complaints I here and some of the reasons fast mode benefits players.

1.Brawl is slow/well now it's fast...

2.Fight's are long and boring to watch/fast mode is definately intense and fun. I've fought my brother, the cpu and had the cpu fight itself at all difficulties. The result was always very quick matches that were exciting to watch.

3.Matches are boring to watch/fast brawl is always entertaining, someone is going to get dominated, flat out, and it's going to look especially fancy

4.People live too long/you won't even notice that you're at 250% when you die. Damage stacks very quickly.

5.no advanced moves/being good at fast brawl is hard enough. melee did require skill, but also speed. I think that with the focus of auto everything in brawl, we the players should than focus our skills on the speed.

6.no true combos/though combos are not true, when in fast mode, combination attacks require alot more skill to avoid. Defensive aspects happen so fast that timing them is much harder (DI, air dodges, side steps, ect...) Psuedo combos will connect and this can bring a whole new level of defensive skill requirements to the scene...

7.the skill requirements for tourney brawl is too low/fast brawl ups the ante with the emphasis on good reflexes and reaction time. in fact, the many unsafe moves that are just plain good (like picking Ike, lol) are harder to punish correctly and of course safe moves are still safe, but those also require more skill in just purely spamming them since you might just have too much time in between inputs and get punished. Heck, at that speed, we over here have SD'd a couple too many times just because we haven't been playing long enough like this.

All in all, I think that playing the game at the fastest possible speed is what the tourney scene needs. Street fighter 2 is only played on turbo2 because of it's speed and it's lasted 20 years!

I guess I'll hear some complaints so I'll anticipate what I'm gonna get...

1. you are a brawl hater, die...
wrong, I want to see brawl live as long as melee did, so I'm suggesting something that might make it more intense...

2.who do you think you are...
finkledoodoo...

3.nobody knows you...
most people do, I know m2k, cactuar, velocity, scar and other east coast players... I just post very rarely...

4.i know you, you're bad at melee...
and your point is? I supported melee by going to tourney's and paying entry fees. sorry but i'm a real fan even if i'm not a pro...

5.why do you think you know what brawl needs...
Don't think it needs anything, it's just a suggestion. I go to alot of tourney's and play all fighting games. When a slow game comes out, (if there is a turbo option) people just up the speed, it's almost standard...

6.why you gotta change the game...
Some people suggest heavy brawl for combos, but that actually does change the game and renders some characters unplayable. I just suggested a speed change, nothing else has changed, it's just faster and all the characters are still playable...

7.well, won't people just spam sidestep and roll...
the game will be faster, players won't be made stupid. good kids will punish that very well, do you think you have the skill to deal with it?...

8.good characters will just be too good...
welcome to the tourney scene my friend, in melee we have fox/falco on top, ggxxac has eddie slayer testament, third strike has chun-li, Marvel vs Capcom 2 has sentinel storm magneto cable and so on. but in the end, characters are only as good as the people who play them, some people's skills just disreguard tier lists...

9.tripping blah blah blah...
melee had battle field, and it was a common counter pick stage. many top players lost matches because of that stage. the ungrab-able edge, oh the nightmeres...

10.i hate you and your "suggestion"...
ok...

11.(random flame)...
random mom joke...

12.(wrong person posts)...
you aren't a competitive player, go play with your little sister...

13.I like your idea...
I own you now...

 

[Tofu Beast]

No






10char

 

[LouisLeGros]

I'm still undecided between fast and heavy brawl.

However, a lot of this board seems to be made of people who think they know what competitive play is about but have never gone to a tournament and probably never will.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Fast Brawls are harder to perform since you have less time to react. Why make a match faster when you can go slower and have a better chance of evading attacks.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

Fast Brawls are harder to perform since you have less time to react. Why make a match faster when you can go slower and have a better chance of evading attacks.

The difficulty helps to identify your current status of mastery of the game. Plus, it's crazy fun!!!

 

[Milos]

Fast Brawls are harder to perform since you have less time to react. Why make a match faster when you can go slower and have a better chance of evading attacks.

UGH

facepalm!!!!

 

[aho43]

i'm all for fast brawl. the reason I am for fast brawl as opposed to heavy brawl, fast brawl only makes the game faster, but doesn't make jumps any shorter. With brawl certain moves only auto-cancel if you do the aerial right as you jump, ganon dair, falcon dair, etc. In heavy brawl their short hops aren't don't last as long, but I believe the cancel frames for the move remain the same. So you effectively can no longer auto-cancel certain moves in heavy brawl. In fast brawl their jump duration isn't affected so you can still auto-cancel theses moves, alebit it will be much harder, but I'm all for that.

One of the big things in melee that I enjoyed was that you had to "earn your stripes" by learning to l-cancel and time certain things to punish sidestepping + rolling. In brawl you can pick all these things up very quickly or just use pure reaction to handle most of it due to the speed of the game. Slower speed results in benefits to the defense if the speed is slow enough that reacting to any sort of attack or approach is sufficiently easy. Speeding the game up gives a little bit more advantage to the attacker because they are the ones that know what is coming next, but the defender is on their heels. Pressure game gets boosted, you have to think and react faster. I've heard from several people that this makes the game way better and that once you get used to it you don't want to go back. I haven't had a chance to try it this week yet, but I will definitely be testing it out this weekend and hopefully recording some matches.

For the competitive scene to thrive we should definitely experiment with the ruleset to make the game as awesome as possible.

 

[Yuna]

No, because Fast Brawl (much like pretty much all Special Brawls) screws certain things up.

 

[Cookiez]

Also, most people on these forums are adverse to playing Brawl on specialised settings.

 

[billywill]

NO
end of discussion

 

[Guildenstern]

I just experimented with a Fast Brawl and my opinion is this:

The match instantly made me feel like a godly Melee player, which I never was. Everything is so fast, and I don't have to worry about L-Canceling or anything really to make it happen. There's no lag from anything. I'm not sure whether this actually adds to the competitiveness or not. Two conflicted reasons:

1. It's FAST, which, as mentioned earlier, gives the defender less time to react, and helps mitigate the boost given to defense in this game. But then...

2. It's EASY. Melee required a lot of skill to speed it up with various advanced techniques and exploits. Simply selecting "Fast Brawl" speeds Brawl up, but it's still pretty easy to play. You don't really have to worry about the timing of your moves so much, as long as you can push the buttons fast.

 

[jupiter]

hahaha, you remind me of the people back in the 80's refusing to adapt to VHS and keeping their Beta cassette players. Except, this is more like hacking into a VHS player to make it more like a Beta player.

As a hardcore ex-Melee player, I would say, that I wouldn't be willing to play Fast mode for tourneys.

Melee was Melee, and this is Brawl. I enjoy what has been made.

*BUT* ...now that the game is out, I think North America (since PAL hasn't been released yet, so I am generalizing the audience as North (and South?) Americans) wasn't ready for Brawl.

A lot of people seem to be very disappointed and very desperate to gain some kind of "old" feel from Brawl that Melee had given us for over 7 years. I don't think people were ready for Brawl, hence these suggestions to desperately change Brawl to get Melee 2.0.

People constantly defend their suggestion saying "it'll be faster (like Melee)" or "it'll be more intense (like Melee)." I think Brawl is intense in it's own right, and the speed *IS* slow, but only in comparison to Melee, especially after playing it for 7 years. But you get used to it, and, if you're the type of person that can adapt, you'll get OVER IT.

Advice: Get over it.

 

[Nasanieru]

I personally wouldn't play a fast mode Brawl in a tourney. Its almost impossible to dash dance unless you program your controller, its speed isn't appropriate and does not require much skill to handle (too fast, even Melee wasn't this fast), and alot of the problems are still carried over from Standard Brawl.

If you're looking for a good alternative play Heavy Brawl. I'm not going to explain it here, but you can check it out here:
[ http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158712 ]

 

[DRaGZ]

i'm all for fast brawl. the reason I am for fast brawl as opposed to heavy brawl, fast brawl only makes the game faster, but doesn't make jumps any shorter. With brawl certain moves only auto-cancel if you do the aerial right as you jump, ganon dair, falcon dair, etc. In heavy brawl their short hops aren't don't last as long, but I believe the cancel frames for the move remain the same. So you effectively can no longer auto-cancel certain moves in heavy brawl. In fast brawl their jump duration isn't affected so you can still auto-cancel theses moves, alebit it will be much harder, but I'm all for that.

One of the big things in melee that I enjoyed was that you had to "earn your stripes" by learning to l-cancel and time certain things to punish sidestepping + rolling. In brawl you can pick all these things up very quickly or just use pure reaction to handle most of it due to the speed of the game. Slower speed results in benefits to the defense if the speed is slow enough that reacting to any sort of attack or approach is sufficiently easy. Speeding the game up gives a little bit more advantage to the attacker because they are the ones that know what is coming next, but the defender is on their heels. Pressure game gets boosted, you have to think and react faster. I've heard from several people that this makes the game way better and that once you get used to it you don't want to go back. I haven't had a chance to try it this week yet, but I will definitely be testing it out this weekend and hopefully recording some matches.

For the competitive scene to thrive we should definitely experiment with the ruleset to make the game as awesome as possible.

Fast Brawl makes the game faster, but it doesn't change the fundamental reasons that make camping, the current epitome of defensive play in Brawl, easy and effective. Heavy Brawl makes it less effective.

Plus, jumps aren't that much shorter, only slightly. JugaBro made a post about it here laying them all out:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4225629&postcount=196

 

[Jigglymaster]

Maybe we should all just stop complaining about Brawl. N64 was about combos, Melee was about tech skill and speed, and brawl is all about spacing and timing. If we did fast mode instead we would have no timing and that would take away part of the game. We shouldn't be using other modes to make it like Melee because Brawl is not melee and it was never meant to be. Were learning new techniques anyways. Fast or heavy mode (all though heavy mode I do like some times but would screw things up if I played it alot) aren't going to teach us new techniques because in heavy we can't really do them and fast you cant do any advanced techniques in the first place. So please, respect Brawl, and don't change it.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

alright!!! people are putting in opinions!!! lets start debating!!!

 

[Finkledoodoo]

No






10char

Ok, you are entitled to your opinion, but may I please ask why?

 

[Finkledoodoo]

I'm still undecided between fast and heavy brawl.

However, a lot of this board seems to be made of people who think they know what competitive play is about but have never gone to a tournament and probably never will.

But this thread is for you friend, what is your preferred way to brawl?

 

[Finkledoodoo]

UGH

facepalm!!!!

ouch!!! now play nice...

 

[Finkledoodoo]

i'm all for fast brawl. the reason I am for fast brawl as opposed to heavy brawl, fast brawl only makes the game faster, but doesn't make jumps any shorter. With brawl certain moves only auto-cancel if you do the aerial right as you jump, ganon dair, falcon dair, etc. In heavy brawl their short hops aren't don't last as long, but I believe the cancel frames for the move remain the same. So you effectively can no longer auto-cancel certain moves in heavy brawl. In fast brawl their jump duration isn't affected so you can still auto-cancel theses moves, alebit it will be much harder, but I'm all for that.

One of the big things in melee that I enjoyed was that you had to "earn your stripes" by learning to l-cancel and time certain things to punish sidestepping + rolling. In brawl you can pick all these things up very quickly or just use pure reaction to handle most of it due to the speed of the game. Slower speed results in benefits to the defense if the speed is slow enough that reacting to any sort of attack or approach is sufficiently easy. Speeding the game up gives a little bit more advantage to the attacker because they are the ones that know what is coming next, but the defender is on their heels. Pressure game gets boosted, you have to think and react faster. I've heard from several people that this makes the game way better and that once you get used to it you don't want to go back. I haven't had a chance to try it this week yet, but I will definitely be testing it out this weekend and hopefully recording some matches.

For the competitive scene to thrive we should definitely experiment with the ruleset to make the game as awesome as possible.

nice!!! thx bud...

 

[Finkledoodoo]

No, because Fast Brawl (much like pretty much all Special Brawls) screws certain things up.

Please elaborate, your response seems too broad to be valid...

 

[Finkledoodoo]

Also, most people on these forums are adverse to playing Brawl on specialised settings.

It's most likely because the difficulty of the game seems to be set on easy, some players want a challenge. If it's difficult for you, I respect you as a casual gamer, but please leave this thread for the hardcore tourney players...

THX!!!

 

[Finkledoodoo]

NO
end of discussion

!?
No reason... Why did you even waste your time posting than?
Well, at least thx for bumping the thread...
Laterz!!!

 

[Finkledoodoo]

I just experimented with a Fast Brawl and my opinion is this:

The match instantly made me feel like a godly Melee player, which I never was. Everything is so fast, and I don't have to worry about L-Canceling or anything really to make it happen. There's no lag from anything. I'm not sure whether this actually adds to the competitiveness or not. Two conflicted reasons:

1. It's FAST, which, as mentioned earlier, gives the defender less time to react, and helps mitigate the boost given to defense in this game. But then...

2. It's EASY. Melee required a lot of skill to speed it up with various advanced techniques and exploits. Simply selecting "Fast Brawl" speeds Brawl up, but it's still pretty easy to play. You don't really have to worry about the timing of your moves so much, as long as you can push the buttons fast.

1. My friend, the purpose is for it to be faster. The defender has less time to react, (which is the main purpose) to take the advantage away from slower more turtle-ish gameplay...

2. When melee is played by pros, they will tell you (like they told me) that it's natural for everything to come out pretty much perfect. Yet, at pro play, there were still many different levels of pro play. Fox is higher teir than marth, but marth 0 to deaths fox with a different type of mastery. Sooooo, my point is: just because you move and l-cancel like a pro, doesn't mean you react and play like one. Trust me, playing good people, (which I do) is increasingly difficult. A world wide tourney scene in fast brawl can up the skills of reaction to a level beyond comprehension...

 

[DRaGZ]

1. My friend, the purpose is for it to be faster. The defender has less time to react, (which is the main purpose) to take the advantage away from slower more turtle-ish gameplay...

2. When melee is played by pros, they will tell you (like they told me) that it's natural for everything to come out pretty much perfect. Yet, at pro play, there were still many different levels of pro play. Fox is higher teir than marth, but marth 0 to deaths fox with a different type of mastery. Sooooo, my point is: just because you move and l-cancel like a pro, doesn't mean you react and play like one. Trust me, playing good people, (which I do) is increasingly difficult. A world wide tourney scene in fast brawl can up the skills of reaction to a level beyond comprehension...

The approacher also has less time to react to a defender.

Either way, both players have less time to react. I've tested this out: nothing really changes except that projectiles are more effective at keeping people back (which isn't necessarily camping, I'm just stating that). It doesn't actually take the advantage of a campy style away because they're faster as well.

In Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, offensive options are faster while defensive options remains the same speed. Thus, approaching becomes easier. At the same time, comboing, a.k.a. a punishment game, is more feasible because the increased gravity makes it more difficult for opponent to get away and allows approachers to follow-up much more quickly.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

hahaha, you remind me of the people back in the 80's refusing to adapt to VHS and keeping their Beta cassette players. Except, this is more like hacking into a VHS player to make it more like a Beta player.

As a hardcore ex-Melee player, I would say, that I wouldn't be willing to play Fast mode for tourneys.

Melee was Melee, and this is Brawl. I enjoy what has been made.

*BUT* ...now that the game is out, I think North America (since PAL hasn't been released yet, so I am generalizing the audience as North (and South?) Americans) wasn't ready for Brawl.

A lot of people seem to be very disappointed and very desperate to gain some kind of "old" feel from Brawl that Melee had given us for over 7 years. I don't think people were ready for Brawl, hence these suggestions to desperately change Brawl to get Melee 2.0.

People constantly defend their suggestion saying "it'll be faster (like Melee)" or "it'll be more intense (like Melee)." I think Brawl is intense in it's own right, and the speed *IS* slow, but only in comparison to Melee, especially after playing it for 7 years. But you get used to it, and, if you're the type of person that can adapt, you'll get OVER IT.

Advice: Get over it.

I'll address this post by the paragraphs...

Lol, so I remember you of things you probably weren't even alive to see...

Oh, you gave an opinion, I'll respect that. But please tell me why, nobody has yet to give a valid reason...

Trust me, we had enough push backs to be ready for brawl. (lets say about early 2007)

Oh look, another opinion instead of a reason. Well my friend, I am definatly not desperate to deal with melee again. (ESPECIALLY BECAUSE I WAS BAD AT IT) But I think that I'm not alone when I say that brawl tourney fights will be the least watched fights in EVO2K8 this year. And no, the game isn't slow in comparison to just melee, it's slower to guilty gear, marvel vs capcom 2 and at times, the most effective strat (which is to turtle or camp) makes the game appear to play slower than third strike. What's funny is that you tell me to adapt, but I think you fear the speed because you may not be able to adapt, which of course the pride of competitive play. (playing to ones limit, than exceeding it) I don't need to get over it if the game bores everyone into not playing it...

I am not saying it will be fast like melee, what I'm saying is that when a game plays slow and there is an option to speed it up, the tournament scene speeds it up. You must play a ton of incredibly slow and long street fighter matches because you wouldn't want to play on turbo2. I'm mean, it's not melee after all...

Thx for the advice, I'll remember it when you win evo2k8 this year...

 

[Finkledoodoo]

I personally wouldn't play a fast mode Brawl in a tourney. Its almost impossible to dash dance unless you program your controller, its speed isn't appropriate and does not require much skill to handle (too fast, even Melee wasn't this fast), and alot of the problems are still carried over from Standard Brawl.

If you're looking for a good alternative play Heavy Brawl. I'm not going to explain it here, but you can check it out here:
[ http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158712 ]

Nice point, I can understand what you say about dash dancing, but I also remember when people said that the one frame shine cancel was impossible. Dedicated players mastered it and they would master dash dancing in fast brawl. I know that brawl doesn't require too much skill to master period, but what I do believe is that the pressure from the speed will limit options, which is one very big thing about competitive play. Most players pick their characters for the options available. Mastery of all options available in regular brawl would require more skill in fast brawl. (I believe) The fact that fast brawl is faster than melee is not a valid point as the discussion is not trying to make brawl melee. What problems are carried over from standard brawl?

I've seen and played heavy brawl, the worst part about it is that it makes some characters simply unplayable. (if you want more reasons, ask) Fast brawl keeps all characters in the game playable and the balance is still there, but it actually requires daily practice now!

 

[AnderFREAK]

I hadn't thought of the speed increases mostly because if its anything like melee's lightning mode (was that what it was called?) it'll extremely exaggerate the feeling of speed we wanted. But I was thinking that messing with the damage ratios (up or down) in the more rules section would be less detrimental to the overall feel of the game.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

Fast Brawl makes the game faster, but it doesn't change the fundamental reasons that make camping, the current epitome of defensive play in Brawl, easy and effective. Heavy Brawl makes it less effective.

Plus, jumps aren't that much shorter, only slightly. JugaBro made a post about it here laying them all out:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4225629&postcount=196

You obviously are playing theory fighter friend, try camping in fast brawl against your best local player. Tell him to be aggressive, it's much much harder... He can get in on you faster, and you can pick the wrong option very quickly. If you want to play theory fighter, prove this wrong, doesn't heavy brawl make it more difficult to recover therefore encouraging camping the edge even more because the benefits are now more immediate.

As for your jumps, try to recover with mk... (UNPLAYABLE!!!)

 

[PwnyRide]

Finkledoodoo....

You made a NONUPLE post. You can multiquote you know.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

Maybe we should all just stop complaining about Brawl. N64 was about combos, Melee was about tech skill and speed, and brawl is all about spacing and timing. If we did fast mode instead we would have no timing and that would take away part of the game. We shouldn't be using other modes to make it like Melee because Brawl is not melee and it was never meant to be. Were learning new techniques anyways. Fast or heavy mode (all though heavy mode I do like some times but would screw things up if I played it alot) aren't going to teach us new techniques because in heavy we can't really do them and fast you cant do any advanced techniques in the first place. So please, respect Brawl, and don't change it.

Nice thoughts kid...
I'm not complaining, it's a question at the least and a suggestion at best. Fast mode timing can be mastered, if it was a tournament standard, people would master timing. I don't want it to be like melee, I just want to up the ante on the practice/rewards ratio. Well, those new advanced techniques can be done in fast mode because nothing has changed but the speed. (they just might require practice now, WOW!!!) As for heavy brawl, I'm against it. And of course I respect the game and your opinion, that's why I answer honestly and thoughtfully.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

The approacher also has less time to react to a defender.

Either way, both players have less time to react. I've tested this out: nothing really changes except that projectiles are more effective at keeping people back (which isn't necessarily camping, I'm just stating that). It doesn't actually take the advantage of a campy style away because they're faster as well.

In Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, offensive options are faster while defensive options remains the same speed. Thus, approaching becomes easier. At the same time, comboing, a.k.a. a punishment game, is more feasible because the increased gravity makes it more difficult for opponent to get away and allows approachers to follow-up much more quickly.

True, but what you fail to realize is that camping requires being at a position of advantage. That means that you will be in more of a singular area not abusing your speed while your opponent can now approach from angle which are much more dangerous because of higher reaction time requirements. Camping may not change, but approaches will and so will the campers during battle. (since it will be much more difficult to defend a viable camping spot, forcing one camper out, and the opponent in) In the end, at least tournament matches won't last 5 minutes.

Heavy brawl is a gimp fest which slaughters the game period. I doesn't play the same and most importantly, renders some characters unplayable. Heavy brawl will focus on camping the edge heavily, as recovering is made more difficult. Don't believe me, play sheik and camp the edge in heavy brawl...

 

[Finkledoodoo]

I hadn't thought of the speed increases mostly because if its anything like melee's lightning mode (was that what it was called?) it'll extremely exaggerate the feeling of speed we wanted. But I was thinking that messing with the damage ratios (up or down) in the more rules section would be less detrimental to the overall feel of the game.

Because brawl is so slow, fast mode is definately playable compared to the highly difficult nearly unplayable lightning mode in melee. I don't know what this "speed we wanted" is that you are talking about. I just believe that a faster game gives more pressure options and releases the game of it's defense first rut. If you think that other rules are better, state them. I'll try them out and give you my opinion.

 

[Finkledoodoo]

Finkledoodoo....

You made a NONUPLE post. You can multiquote you know.

Sorry, my computer sux and multiquote is actually cut off from my screen. (I apologize to the smash community for being poor)

But hey, you posted and I think that's great! How about giving an opinion on my first post...
Laterz!!!

 

[DRaGZ]

True, but what you fail to realize is that camping requires being at a position of advantage. That means that you will be in more of a singular area not abusing your speed while your opponent can now approach from angle which are much more dangerous because of higher reaction time requirements. Camping may not change, but approaches will and so will the campers during battle. (since it will be much more difficult to defend a viable camping spot, forcing one camper out, and the opponent in) In the end, at least tournament matches won't last 5 minutes.

Heavy brawl is a gimp fest which slaughters the game period. I doesn't play the same and most importantly, renders some characters unplayable. Heavy brawl will focus on camping the edge heavily, as recovering is made more difficult. Don't believe me, play sheik and camp the edge in heavy brawl...

Dude...my friends and I have been playing mostly Heavy Brawl for the good portion of the last two weeks. I know what I'm talking about when I say that nobody is gimped to the point where they are unplayable. I think the fact that I've been debating about this in a topic using empirical evidence also suggests that I at least know what I'm talking about with Heavy Brawl...

Your assertions about Heavy Brawl are grossly exaggerated. I think you also fail to realize that camping isn't just sitting in one spot, it's sitting in one spot then running away when the opponent manages to approach. Approach isn't the issue in regular Brawl, I can do it successfully all the time. The problem lies in the punishment, which Fast Brawl completely fails to fix. Sure, matches won't last five minutes, but that's like saying an awful fast forwarded movie will no longer last 2 hours, why would I want to watch it at a faster speed when it's still awful?

Also, the point about recovering being more difficult, in regular Brawl, when was the last time you were actually gimped on recovery? Chances are 90% of the time you haven't. That's because with the overpowered recoveries in this game, there is no more edge game to speak of. It's not longer an issue, i.e. recoveries are simply too powerful and easy in this game. It's a good thing that recoveries were gimped because 1. players have to friggin' work to get back and 2. gimps are earnable again.

I suggest you go to the Heavy Brawl topic and give it a long hard look. I've at least taken a few days to get to understand Fast Brawl, you've apparently given Heavy Brawl just a few minutes.

 

[matthewmilad]

Well, the problem with the game compared to Melee isn't the actual game speed, but it's the aerial speed that makes the game slow.
Heavy Brawl accomplishes our goal.
Yes, some characters like Sonic become unplayable (go try his Up B).
But I'm pretty sure his offense will fly through the roof.
He'll be like Melee Falco.
Yes, there will be casualties on Heavy, but we will have a sped up game that has combos to discover.
I'd be willing to switch to Heavy if after a couple more months regular Brawl just doesn't cut it.

 

[Hizi]

I disagree with you but I give you props for putting together a valid argument. Nice job! Good luck on finding others that prefer to play with your style. Patience is as much part of the game as speed is.

 

[El_Komosutro]

Dude...my friends and I have been playing mostly Heavy Brawl for the good portion of the last two weeks. I know what I'm talking about when I say that nobody is gimped to the point where they are unplayable. I think the fact that I've been debating about this in a topic using empirical evidence also suggests that I at least know what I'm talking about with Heavy Brawl...

Your assertions about Heavy Brawl are grossly exaggerated. I think you also fail to realize that camping isn't just sitting in one spot, it's sitting in one spot then running away when the opponent manages to approach. Approach isn't the issue in regular Brawl, I can do it successfully all the time. The problem lies in the punishment, which Fast Brawl completely fails to fix. Sure, matches won't last five minutes, but that's like saying an awful fast forwarded movie will no longer last 2 hours, why would I want to watch it at a faster speed when it's still awful?

Also, the point about recovering being more difficult, in regular Brawl, when was the last time you were actually gimped on recovery? Chances are 90% of the time you haven't. That's because with the overpowered recoveries in this game, there is no more edge game to speak of. It's not longer an issue, i.e. recoveries are simply too powerful and easy in this game. It's a good thing that recoveries were gimped because 1. players have to friggin' work to get back and 2. gimps are earnable again.

I suggest you go to the Heavy Brawl topic and give it a long hard look. I've at least taken a few days to get to understand Fast Brawl, you've apparently given Heavy Brawl just a few minutes.

This is finkledoodoo

By the paragraph,
I never said that you didn't know what you were talking about. When I deem a character unplayable, I don't mean that the character can't be handled, anyone can play well with whoever they practice with. I'm saying that the original playstyle for that character is nearly ruined. Heavy Brawl drasticly changes the game for my mk pit and snake. Snake hurts the most because he is my vertical killing machine and he needs his standard jump height for alot of my grenade/c4 zoning (i'm not psycho ******, he is straight up fists with snake). But most importantly let me state this, "I have found you to be true in all you have stated thus far, I'm only in disagreement with your opinion, not your facts"

You are correct, I did exaggerate. But without exaggeration, "heavy brawl changes the game for alot of characters, making some more effecient combo machines, "welcome back to high teir captain falcon!!!" and leaving others to struggle on their main killing strategies, "jiggs' rest doesn't/won't kill efficiently and her kill combos that juggle her opponent to the edge of the screen require her to drop more per hit while heavy brawl hurts her ability to recover!!!" Camping is sitting at a point of advantage and letting your opponent approach. What you add to camping isn't camping, it's called runaway. Like storm in Marvel vs Capcom 2, many characters benefit from this in brawl. Brawl seems to be a runaway game, due to it's lack of reasonable punishment. But, though runaway seems to be the most beneficial tactic in brawl, you will hate me in tournament. Have you play "good" tourney mk's, and the only thing they will do is camp the edge. If you don't come to them, you might actually draw. Mk's edgegame is probably the best in the game and good kids abuse it to death. If you haven't delt with this yet, you will hate it. Have you ever been down a stock in melee to a marth, if he's good, he'll only fight you at the edge from that point on. That's what mk does well, and guess what, if you do put him at a disadvantage, he can "runaway" and camp the other edge. That is the definition of camping. Also, another example of camping is that good marths are always camping under a platform fishing for a good up throw combo... Fast brawl doesn't fix runaway, but if you think that heavy brawl fixes runaway, you are mistaken. In heavy brawl, I play pit for one reason only, runaway. Heavy nerfs DI to a degree where it's nearly impossible to DI behind pit during his Foward-b. (which is how you punish him even during a hit) Arrows are easier to hit with when characters recover and his runaway ground game with arrows are nearly god teir. Not only that, but his former three hit neutral A into arrow combo becomes three hit neutral A (now it knocks down!!!) into runaway arrows... After enough damage, side smash is now an almost broken killing move, spam it, it's safe. Fair spam is safe, in other words, pit runs away, than spams safe killing moves... It's not broken, but it's easy and efficient leaving all the work strategy and frustration to the opponent. Pits answer to anything is wheel for 30% or more... And also, DI everything in heavy brawl down and away (I know, exaggeration, but sadly close to true for most moves), no combo for you (even if you are still in reach of an attack, air dodge) Heavy brawl does not add hitstun, therefore, punishment game is almost the same... As for fast forwarded movie, I didn't think that the gameplay or better strats made the game awful like that movie you are talking about. I just think that as we the players always speed up the games we play in tournament, I thought that brawl would be awesome at higher speeds. It just so happens that I notice that there is a sharper learning curve and the dedication/skill rewards feel higher...

I think you may be the best player in your group if you don't have a hard time recovering. If not, than your group may want to begin taking more risks in friendlies to experiment with the edgeguard game... At first, the only thing we knew was, "when off the edge, DI up than up-b for magical infinate life." But that has since changed, even if I'm not camping the edge because we are playing friendlies, the edgeguard game here has become highly aggressive, to the point where sacraficial KO's are regular. Point is, yes, we gimp here, even at the cost of a life, because like YOU said, the recoveries are so good that there's no point to not take the fight off the edge. (since you have a good chance to recover anyway)

I've been playing heavy brawl ever since I found out it was becoming popular (I think in europe or something), and since you are a big fan of it, I was actually hoping to be good enough to challenge you one day. But I'm not a fan of it, I just like competition. If brawl goes heavy, I wanna be ready for it... As for playing it competitively (or even period), nobody likes it here, and after the truely horrid pit matches against me, people refuse to play it. So it's been practice mode and level 9 cpu's for me...

All in all, do I play heavy brawl, no... Do practice heavy brawl, yes... Why fast over heavy brawl, because I don't want to change the game or the meta game, upping the speed is just what we do in tournaments and I find it more difficult, fun and fullfilling... (in the case of melee, lighting mode was just unplayable and from what I understand, some people said it changed some of the physics)...

 

[El_Komosutro]

Well, the problem with the game compared to Melee isn't the actual game speed, but it's the aerial speed that makes the game slow.
Heavy Brawl accomplishes our goal.
Yes, some characters like Sonic become unplayable (go try his Up B).
But I'm pretty sure his offense will fly through the roof.
He'll be like Melee Falco.
Yes, there will be casualties on Heavy, but we will have a sped up game that has combos to discover.
I'd be willing to switch to Heavy if after a couple more months regular Brawl just doesn't cut it.

I agree with everything you said except, heavy brawl does not add hitstun, therefore, those comboes you want to discover will only apply to fast characters (horizonally) who have reach (like maybe marth, oops, only marth) and knock opponents too high to continue the combo (there's nobody like that ...) The only combos that wil be made are going to be chain throws, since throws are the only moves that actually have hitstun...

Before I flamed, for hitstun.
Hitstun is where you loose control of your character, with no defense other than DI.
People are going to say what about combo fairs and what not... Look at your character, if they spark when you swing, it's a meteor hit. Meteor hits make you loose control of your character, but on top of being able to DI, you are able to shake out of this kind of stun. Thus, when playing in tournament, the good kids will know this, and you'll wonder why none of your comboes work...
Most throws have true hitstun, thus chain throws and throw comboes will benefit the most from heavy brawl...
If you are getting comboed in brawl, mash analog stick and block...

 

[El_Komosutro]

I disagree with you but I give you props for putting together a valid argument. Nice job! Good luck on finding others that prefer to play with your style. Patience is as much part of the game as speed is.

Thx for the props, can I get a reason why you disagree?