Why the hate on smash4?

[Chez G.]

i feel like htis is appropriate:

http://extrafabulouscomics.com/comic/200/

Seems pretty accurate with the Smash 4 hate. Too funny! Makes me wonder why people can't just play what they want to play and leave it at that. I do that. I play PM and Sm4sh, for example.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not saying that the people who chanted weren't disrespectful. They were, and I didn't join them.
I'm just saying that ostracizing people who did instead of understanding why they felt this way and acted as they did is a negative way to deal with this already-negative situation.
Its an old issue in psychology - Attribution Bias. Humans in general have issues attributing peoples' actions to situational factors and instead always attribute peoples' behaviors to their personality (in effect, thinking someone is a jerk or an a**hole.) All I'm trying to do is remove the blinders inherent in the way we think. I

Scar more or less talked about it in his article.

Made to understand why people did it, which I do given the loss of the day and how long it went on.

Melee took longer overall, but it still doesn't change the fact people didn't like how long they had to wait. Which resulted in what happened there.

I think it was wrong regardless, but I understand why people did it if they did. I just want them to realize they shouldn't be doing that again.

 

[Kahnu]

I am being absolutely serious, and am trying to find answers to the one question i have been wondering about the most. Please i would love for there to be serious replies in this thread and no "Smash4 is for noobs/casual" or "melee is only spacies" talk here.

I joined the competitive scene when smash 4 came out, i dont play melee competitively, so just some background info there.

Now, i have noticed whenever i watch any cool smash 4 tourney videos, or also apex 2015, there has been a lot of comments from mostly (i understand not all), but mostly Melee fans bashing on smash 4. And apparently this happened with brawl as well, which if im not mistaken, died off as a popular competitive game.

So being pretty much new to the smash scene and all, i never understood, Why the hate on Smash 4? Is there something the Melee scene is afraid of? Do you think Smash 4 might overtake Melee popularity? Or tournament game spots will put in Smash 4 instead of Melee? Are you afraid that Smash 4 will kill the Melee scene? Real talk, why all the hate? I mean, i don't see why the Melee community shows some sort of need to bash on Smash 4, when they can enjoy the great game that Melee is instead.

Thanks

Because it rewards campy and defensive play while not catering to more aggressive players.
That's my reason at least.

 

[kingPiano]

i feel like htis is appropriate:

http://extrafabulouscomics.com/comic/200/

Or more accurate to this thread if the people that picked up the Flag B were on their knees asking the person with Flag A to take their flag seriously and begging them to give their blessing and approval of their flag choice.

Can't believe this thread is still going on. It's going round and round in one huge meaningless circle.
If you like your game, then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If you care this much about Melee players opinions it shows that you are not confident in your own game and you know it won't last probably.




-

 

[Jebus244]

It's only because Nintendo started to support it, so now smash tournies will host it anytime they host.

It's a totally different game though, and I don't think it deserves the same platform as melee. Not because I feel melee is better (which I do, I won't deny that), but because the game has changed, and watching it and playing it is too different from watching and playing melee. The mechanics that truly separated the best of the best made getting good a challenge, it made watching those great players engaging.

It's just a different game. It's like playing tennis and making backhands illegal. Sure, essentially the same rules, but less depth is involved, more running, less skill. Or basketball, but you're not allowed to jump.

Like... like, ugh... *sigh* why? Because it looks more fresh? So now we're playing tennis without backhands, or basketball without jumping, except we're wearing bright and flashy colors..

For me it's mainly about mechanics. It will never be the same.

 

[Narpas_sword]

. Or basketball, but you're not allowed to jump.

More like, basketball, but you cant run.

So Netball.

Not bad. Just different.

 

[Pwii]

Why do people hate sm4sh?

Because most of the community is sacrificing PM for it.
Because it offers less creative, more defensive, less complex play
Because some people react negatively to everyone trying to rope Melee players in by adding false hype to Sm4sh matches. (See: commentary on the Dabuzz vs Abadango match at Apex 2015. If it was Melee, the commentators wouldn't have been hyping it up. See: Hbox vs Armada's Peach at Paragon.)
Because we feel like Melee deserves the fame that Sm4sh got out of nothing but being newer and more monetized.

How does it feel to know your scene only exists because your game is kinda similar to an amazing one, and Nintendo is throwing money at Apex and Evo to make sure your tournaments exist?

EDIT: Something I don't think people get about Melee: You can play it like Brawl or Sm4sh kind of.
Do you not like technical barriers? Play puff. Hbox admits he can't do tech skill and his spacies are trash. But he became one of the gods by straight outplaying people.
Do you not like complexity? Play puff or sheik. Hbox uses very few tools in his kit to get the job done, just by having solid fundamentals. Also you can go sheik a la Borp and do well.
Do you like being defensive? Play puff, or sheik, samus, hell even fox or falco can be played defensive.

The thing about Melee is not one style reigns supreme. In Brawl, camping was the only viable strategy. It's not just that it was viable, it was the only good way to play. If you wanted to go aggro you had to have god reads, and even then it was playing badly hoping you'd throw off your opponent. But in Melee you can play any style you want to. The current dominating style is super-tech high-speed aggro, but it's FUN to try and play a different style. I played ****ing full-out stall in UU gen 6 while everyone was running a more balanced build. Some people could deal with it, some couldn't. Some people called me ******s and I laughed.

You guys are looking at it wrong. Melee has lots of different viable strategies and styles. They aren't all equal in effectiveness, but it doesn't mean you can't play them. But in sm4sh and Brawl, they only have 1 good option and that is to force your opponent to come to you. It's not that people camp in Sm4sh, it's that I can't choose to play a style I like because Sakurai didn't like Melee.

 

[Hana Na Tahou]

There's hate on Smash 4 because people take Video games way too seriously and a group of people have this extremely strong belief that laughing and being rude to other video game players will somehow advance them further in life and make them "cool" This applies to pretty much every video game franchise that has ever existed. Don't like a game? Ignore it, don't play it, but some people seem to lack the thought process that everyone has the right to their own opinions and such. The huge lack of maturity from all sides also comes into play when someone says something bad about Brawl, Brawl fanboys explode and get offended and yell and rant about how people "hate their game". I've seen this on all Smash fanbases whether it be 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, or 4. Now i reiterate: It is a VIDEO GAME. It's programming for virtual things that you pick up a controller for and play it. Why this hate campaign by all sides of these games is still going i have no idea, because it's programming. If people are going to get upset over other people's opinions on video games they need to get their priorities straight and grow up. For example: i HATE the book To Kill A Mockingbird, cannot stand it. But i don't go over to someone who DOES enjoy it and go "This book sucks, the character development sucks, the sentence structure sucks, and YOU suck for reading it" because they are WORDS IN A BOOK. If i do not enjoy something i can either ignore it or accept that it exists and deal with it. A good chunk of the Smash "community" has an issue with just dealing that something they don't like exists, so they have to try and tear everyone who enjoys what they don't like down, which is usually an Encyclopedia Dramatica-worthy series of Hypocritical statements and actions. But it's like this in almost EVERY community for ANYTHING. But my life doesn't revolve around Smash and it can't be the ever looming presence that controls my everyday functions like some people. Some people call it "Passion", but if people have passion for "their" game, then focus on your game and not rip somebody else's apart because it's not what YOU think is the perfect game. People have rights to their own opinions, and i embrace debate, but at least 90% of the time in this community there is no debate, it's just a bunch of people who spout off incoherent, toxic words that are usually misspelled. Basically, i love Smash, i have for 12 years, but this community makes me sick sometimes with their actions and such. It's as simple as saying "You play your game, i'll play mine". If someone comes over to play and asks if they can bring a PM setup, i won't be like "No, i've never played PM (true) and i might not like it, so NO, we'll play what I choose we will play, and if you don't like that, then go away" Heck, i think there was an event in Pitt where someone was playing Smash4, but the WHOLE time just talked and yelled about how he hated it. Then why play it if you don't like it? You have a choice as a human what you choose to do and what you choose not to do. So how about we all choose to play what we like and what interests us in life and focus on that, and not rip into other people's interests because people have a wildly incorrect sense of entitlement and only what THEY like should EVER be accepted by ANYBODY. Doesn't sound too complicated right? Sip some truth tea, it'll help.
~Hana

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Why do people hate sm4sh?

Because most of the community is sacrificing PM for it.
Because it offers less creative, more defensive, less complex play
Because some people react negatively to everyone trying to rope Melee players in by adding false hype to Sm4sh matches. (See: commentary on the Dabuzz vs Abadango match at Apex 2015. If it was Melee, the commentators wouldn't have been hyping it up. See: Hbox vs Armada's Peach at Paragon.)
Because we feel like Melee deserves the fame that Sm4sh got out of nothing but being newer and more monetized.

How does it feel to know your scene only exists because your game is kinda similar to an amazing one, and Nintendo is throwing money at Apex and Evo to make sure your tournaments exist?

EDIT: Something I don't think people get about Melee: You can play it like Brawl or Sm4sh kind of.
Do you not like technical barriers? Play puff. Hbox admits he can't do tech skill and his spacies are trash. But he became one of the gods by straight outplaying people.
Do you not like complexity? Play puff or sheik. Hbox uses very few tools in his kit to get the job done, just by having solid fundamentals. Also you can go sheik a la Borp and do well.
Do you like being defensive? Play puff, or sheik, samus, hell even fox or falco can be played defensive.

The thing about Melee is not one style reigns supreme. In Brawl, camping was the only viable strategy. It's not just that it was viable, it was the only good way to play. If you wanted to go aggro you had to have god reads, and even then it was playing badly hoping you'd throw off your opponent. But in Melee you can play any style you want to. The current dominating style is super-tech high-speed aggro, but it's FUN to try and play a different style. I played ****ing full-out stall in UU gen 6 while everyone was running a more balanced build. Some people could deal with it, some couldn't. Some people called me ******s and I laughed.

You guys are looking at it wrong. Melee has lots of different viable strategies and styles. They aren't all equal in effectiveness, but it doesn't mean you can't play them. But in sm4sh and Brawl, they only have 1 good option and that is to force your opponent to come to you. It's not that people camp in Sm4sh, it's that I can't choose to play a style I like because Sakurai didn't like Melee.

the number 1 smash 4 player in the world is the most aggressive....

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

There's hate on Smash 4 because people take Video games way too seriously and a group of people have this extremely strong belief that laughing and being rude to other video game players will somehow advance them further in life and make them "cool" This applies to pretty much every video game franchise that has ever existed. Don't like a game? Ignore it, don't play it, but some people seem to lack the thought process that everyone has the right to their own opinions and such. The huge lack of maturity from all sides also comes into play when someone says something bad about Brawl, Brawl fanboys explode and get offended and yell and rant about how people "hate their game". I've seen this on all Smash fanbases whether it be 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, or 4. Now i reiterate: It is a VIDEO GAME. It's programming for virtual things that you pick up a controller for and play it. Why this hate campaign by all sides of these games is still going i have no idea, because it's programming. If people are going to get upset over other people's opinions on video games they need to get their priorities straight and grow up. For example: i HATE the book To Kill A Mockingbird, cannot stand it. But i don't go over to someone who DOES enjoy it and go "This book sucks, the character development sucks, the sentence structure sucks, and YOU suck for reading it" because they are WORDS IN A BOOK. If i do not enjoy something i can either ignore it or accept that it exists and deal with it. A good chunk of the Smash "community" has an issue with just dealing that something they don't like exists, so they have to try and tear everyone who enjoys what they don't like down, which is usually an Encyclopedia Dramatica-worthy series of Hypocritical statements and actions. But it's like this in almost EVERY community for ANYTHING. But my life doesn't revolve around Smash and it can't be the ever looming presence that controls my everyday functions like some people. Some people call it "Passion", but if people have passion for "their" game, then focus on your game and not rip somebody else's apart because it's not what YOU think is the perfect game. People have rights to their own opinions, and i embrace debate, but at least 90% of the time in this community there is no debate, it's just a bunch of people who spout off incoherent, toxic words that are usually misspelled. Basically, i love Smash, i have for 12 years, but this community makes me sick sometimes with their actions and such. It's as simple as saying "You play your game, i'll play mine". If someone comes over to play and asks if they can bring a PM setup, i won't be like "No, i've never played PM (true) and i might not like it, so NO, we'll play what I choose we will play, and if you don't like that, then go away" Heck, i think there was an event in Pitt where someone was playing Smash4, but the WHOLE time just talked and yelled about how he hated it. Then why play it if you don't like it? You have a choice as a human what you choose to do and what you choose not to do. So how about we all choose to play what we like and what interests us in life and focus on that, and not rip into other people's interests because people have a wildly incorrect sense of entitlement and only what THEY like should EVER be accepted by ANYBODY. Doesn't sound too complicated right? Sip some truth tea, it'll help.
~Hana

Not trying to be an asshole but next time if you're going to write something this long please use paragraphs.

 

[Hana Na Tahou]

Not trying to be an ******* but next time if you're going to write something this long please use paragraphs.

Eh, just wrote what came to mind and disregarded paragraphs (again) lol.

 

[Spak]

the number 1 smash 4 player in the world is the most aggressive....

Not really... He might be the most aggressive of the top 20, but he is nothing the most aggressive in the world. For instance, I'm more aggressive than M2K in Sm4sh, but I suck (partially because of the agressiveness and partially because I've only played for about 50 hours). The reason M2K can get away with being aggressive in a defensive game like Sm4sh is because of his godlike spacing and punishes (which he got from all of the Smash games combined, not just Sm4sh).

 

[Jebus244]

There's hate on Smash 4 because people take Video games way too seriously and a group of people have this extremely strong belief that laughing and being rude to other video game players will somehow advance them further in life and make them "cool" This applies to pretty much every video game franchise that has ever existed. Don't like a game? Ignore it, don't play it, but some people seem to lack the thought process that everyone has the right to their own opinions and such. The huge lack of maturity from all sides also comes into play when someone says something bad about Brawl, Brawl fanboys explode and get offended and yell and rant about how people "hate their game". I've seen this on all Smash fanbases whether it be 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, or 4. Now i reiterate: It is a VIDEO GAME. It's programming for virtual things that you pick up a controller for and play it. Why this hate campaign by all sides of these games is still going i have no idea, because it's programming. If people are going to get upset over other people's opinions on video games they need to get their priorities straight and grow up. For example: i HATE the book To Kill A Mockingbird, cannot stand it. But i don't go over to someone who DOES enjoy it and go "This book sucks, the character development sucks, the sentence structure sucks, and YOU suck for reading it" because they are WORDS IN A BOOK. If i do not enjoy something i can either ignore it or accept that it exists and deal with it. A good chunk of the Smash "community" has an issue with just dealing that something they don't like exists, so they have to try and tear everyone who enjoys what they don't like down, which is usually an Encyclopedia Dramatica-worthy series of Hypocritical statements and actions. But it's like this in almost EVERY community for ANYTHING. But my life doesn't revolve around Smash and it can't be the ever looming presence that controls my everyday functions like some people. Some people call it "Passion", but if people have passion for "their" game, then focus on your game and not rip somebody else's apart because it's not what YOU think is the perfect game. People have rights to their own opinions, and i embrace debate, but at least 90% of the time in this community there is no debate, it's just a bunch of people who spout off incoherent, toxic words that are usually misspelled. Basically, i love Smash, i have for 12 years, but this community makes me sick sometimes with their actions and such. It's as simple as saying "You play your game, i'll play mine". If someone comes over to play and asks if they can bring a PM setup, i won't be like "No, i've never played PM (true) and i might not like it, so NO, we'll play what I choose we will play, and if you don't like that, then go away" Heck, i think there was an event in Pitt where someone was playing Smash4, but the WHOLE time just talked and yelled about how he hated it. Then why play it if you don't like it? You have a choice as a human what you choose to do and what you choose not to do. So how about we all choose to play what we like and what interests us in life and focus on that, and not rip into other people's interests because people have a wildly incorrect sense of entitlement and only what THEY like should EVER be accepted by ANYBODY. Doesn't sound too complicated right? Sip some truth tea, it'll help.
~Hana

Nah, it's mainly because melee took a backseat to sm4sh at Apex. That's when this thread started. If sm4sh had stuck to its own platform and stream, no drama. To use your book example, if you were reading your favorite book and someone sat down next to you, took your book, and started reading "to kill a mockingbird" to you... I bet you'd be pretty annoyed.
--"Um, excuse me, can you read to yourself? I would like to continue reading my boo.."
--"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting.."
--"Come on.. really?"
--"...that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when.."
--"Whats wrong with reading over there?"
--"... you're licked before you begin.."
--"Stop."
--"...but you begin anyway.."
--"STOP, give me my book back!"
--"...and see it through no matter.."
--"MELEE, MELEE, MELEE, MELEE!"

 

[NINJAxKOALA]

Not really... He might be the most aggressive of the top 20, but he is nothing the most aggressive in the world. For instance, I'm more aggressive than M2K in Sm4sh, but I suck (partially because of the agressiveness and partially because I've only played for about 50 hours). The reason M2K can get away with being aggressive in a defensive game like Sm4sh is because of his godlike spacing and punishes (which he got from all of the Smash games combined, not just Sm4sh).

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Zero not m2k

 

[SAUS]

There's hate on Smash 4 because people take Video games way too seriously and a group of people have this extremely strong belief that laughing and being rude to other video game players will somehow advance them further in life and make them "cool" This applies to pretty much every video game franchise that has ever existed. Don't like a game? Ignore it, don't play it, but some people seem to lack the thought process that everyone has the right to their own opinions and such. The huge lack of maturity from all sides also comes into play when someone says something bad about Brawl, Brawl fanboys explode and get offended and yell and rant about how people "hate their game". I've seen this on all Smash fanbases whether it be 64, Melee, Brawl, PM, or 4. Now i reiterate: It is a VIDEO GAME. It's programming for virtual things that you pick up a controller for and play it. Why this hate campaign by all sides of these games is still going i have no idea, because it's programming. If people are going to get upset over other people's opinions on video games they need to get their priorities straight and grow up. For example: i HATE the book To Kill A Mockingbird, cannot stand it. But i don't go over to someone who DOES enjoy it and go "This book sucks, the character development sucks, the sentence structure sucks, and YOU suck for reading it" because they are WORDS IN A BOOK. If i do not enjoy something i can either ignore it or accept that it exists and deal with it. A good chunk of the Smash "community" has an issue with just dealing that something they don't like exists, so they have to try and tear everyone who enjoys what they don't like down, which is usually an Encyclopedia Dramatica-worthy series of Hypocritical statements and actions. But it's like this in almost EVERY community for ANYTHING. But my life doesn't revolve around Smash and it can't be the ever looming presence that controls my everyday functions like some people. Some people call it "Passion", but if people have passion for "their" game, then focus on your game and not rip somebody else's apart because it's not what YOU think is the perfect game. People have rights to their own opinions, and i embrace debate, but at least 90% of the time in this community there is no debate, it's just a bunch of people who spout off incoherent, toxic words that are usually misspelled. Basically, i love Smash, i have for 12 years, but this community makes me sick sometimes with their actions and such. It's as simple as saying "You play your game, i'll play mine". If someone comes over to play and asks if they can bring a PM setup, i won't be like "No, i've never played PM (true) and i might not like it, so NO, we'll play what I choose we will play, and if you don't like that, then go away" Heck, i think there was an event in Pitt where someone was playing Smash4, but the WHOLE time just talked and yelled about how he hated it. Then why play it if you don't like it? You have a choice as a human what you choose to do and what you choose not to do. So how about we all choose to play what we like and what interests us in life and focus on that, and not rip into other people's interests because people have a wildly incorrect sense of entitlement and only what THEY like should EVER be accepted by ANYBODY. Doesn't sound too complicated right? Sip some truth tea, it'll help.
~Hana

What Jebus244 said. But also, your example about someone bringing over a PM setup, that is like someone coming to your book discussion on Lord of the Flies (as an arbitrary example) and talking about To Kill A Mockingbird. Honestly, I don't have the room for another game at my smash fests, and I'm not really interested in playing not-the-game-that-I-play (same as talking about a book that you don't want to talk about).

Smash 4 and melee being in the same venues all the times is the problem, imo. They are not attached in any way other than Nintendo and their titles. If you put a bunch of people who like one thing in the same room with a bunch of people who like some other thing, but they have to take turns with their things, there will be tension.

Imagine some people inviting you to come to their To Kill A Mockingbird discussion. You might go, since you know the people, and you might even have a decent time. But you wouldn't have as much of a fun time as if it were to discuss your favourite book with other people who also like that book. Then people keep inviting you to come talk about To Kill A Mockingbird. You begin to just tell them why you don't like the book. They see this as an attack and put down your book. You defend your book. There is separation. You go to the same library to read / talk about books but all the To Kill A Mockingbird people are always there. There's lots of tension, pretty much only because the people who like To Kill A Mockingbird want you to enjoy their book when you simply don't. Sometimes dumb things get said. Maybe you join in on something you aren't proud of after, but were kind of just jumping in at the time. It was impulse, perhaps.

Meanwhile, everyone is hosting their book discussions as "Lord of the Flies and To Kill A Mockingbird" discussions and you have no idea why they should be grouped together. Any attempt to just have them be separate things gets shot down by "Why can't you just accept To Kill A Mockingbird? Why can't you just love ALL books?".

Honestly, Smash 4 is just way too much in peoples' faces (melee players' faces) about Smash 4. Most of them don't give a crap about the game and yet are somehow always grouped together with them, forced to share space, forced to share stream time.

 

[Spak]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Zero not m2k

In that case, just replace "every Smash game" with "PM and Brawl" and it still applies.

 

[Malkasaur]

Simple: Some people (myself included) feel that Smash 4 is not a good game.

 

[kingPiano]

Simple: Some people (myself included) feel that Smash 4 is not a good game.

Bro you better start playing your Melee Kirby again it was 2 legit 2 quit

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Not really... He might be the most aggressive of the top 20, but he is nothing the most aggressive in the world. For instance, I'm more aggressive than M2K in Sm4sh, but I suck (partially because of the agressiveness and partially because I've only played for about 50 hours). The reason M2K can get away with being aggressive in a defensive game like Sm4sh is because of his godlike spacing and punishes (which he got from all of the Smash games combined, not just Sm4sh).

i was talking about zero.....zero played melee aswell,,the aggression in the game is just harder to play ,but its seems that it is the winning method of play atm.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Simple: Some people (myself included) feel that Smash 4 is not a good game.

if you feel it is not a good game thats fine..its just an opinion.but the problem is when someone vocally expresses these opinions maliciously, thats what starts arguments.

 

[Ohsm]

i was talking about zero.....zero played melee aswell,,the aggression in the game is just harder to play ,but its seems that it is the winning method of play atm.

What exact part of the aggression is harder to play? The hoo or the hah?

Why do people hate sm4sh?

Because most of the community is sacrificing PM for it.
Because it offers less creative, more defensive, less complex play
Because some people react negatively to everyone trying to rope Melee players in by adding false hype to Sm4sh matches. (See: commentary on the Dabuzz vs Abadango match at Apex 2015. If it was Melee, the commentators wouldn't have been hyping it up. See: Hbox vs Armada's Peach at Paragon.)
Because we feel like Melee deserves the fame that Sm4sh got out of nothing but being newer and more monetized.

How does it feel to know your scene only exists because your game is kinda similar to an amazing one, and Nintendo is throwing money at Apex and Evo to make sure your tournaments exist?

This is pretty much spot on!

 

[_A1]

the number 1 smash 4 player in the world is the most aggressive....

It's not just aggression, it's also what you can do with it. Smash 4 has really linear combos(so much grab to uair chains, etc.) and that have little to no variance and aren't at all exciting to watch or preform imo.

Melee is so old yet the punish game is still rather fresh. Smash 4 is so new yet the punish game is just so lame to me.

 

[Spak]

i was talking about zero.....zero played melee aswell,,the aggression in the game is just harder to play ,but its seems that it is the winning method of play atm.

Zero did play Melee, he just wasn't as notable a player in the scene. Also, Sm4sh is inherently more defensive, so even people like M2K and Zero are more defensive than they would be in Melee or PM. Some people like the defensive play, but it makes the game slower, more campy, and in my opinion, more boring.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

What exact part of the aggression is harder to play? The hoo or the hah?



This is pretty much spot on!

because theres no guaranteed throw follow ups in melee....kappa

 

[NoviceSmasher]

It's not just aggression, it's also what you can do with it. Smash 4 has really linear combos(so much grab to uair chains, etc.) and that have little to no variance and aren't at all exciting to watch or preform imo.

Melee is so old yet the punish game is still rather fresh. Smash 4 is so new yet the punish game is just so lame to me.

i would argue that baiting and punishing airdodges gives the game an interesting punish game.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Zero did play Melee, he just wasn't as notable a player in the scene. Also, Sm4sh is inherently more defensive, so even people like M2K and Zero are more defensive than they would be in Melee or PM. Some people like the defensive play, but it makes the game slower, more campy, and in my opinion, more boring.

please show me all this campy gameplay,,i think you people watched one apex top 8 and formed an opinion solely on that.

 

[Pwii]

Nice triple post

The issue with Sm4sh combos isn't that something is guaranteed or not. The issue is most combos are either free or reliant on bad opponents. Not to mention the free combos aren't even spread out among the characters. I mean, if you're going to **** up the combo system and make everything completely guaranteed or completely not, at least do it for more people than sheik, diddy, and maybe luigi.

When you jump up to follow up a launcher in Sm4sh, it's a bait, not a combo. Baits are interesting and a cool part of gameplay, but they are not combos. You can avoid 95% of Sm4sh "combos" if you hold away and mash jump+airdodge. Unless you're like 2 feet off the ground. You don't even have to time it due to the buffer system. If you wanna play a game without combos at least pick a good one like Divekick.

EDIT: Also for the guaranteed Melee follow ups, it still accounts for the defender's (s)DI. People can mindgame their way out of M2k's Marth FD chaingrab by slight DI behind + Shine. It's hard, and if M2K was perfect they wouldn't have it, but it's not free. Free means you don't have to work for it. Even what you'd call guaranteed in Melee your opponent can still make harder on you, or try and throw you off.

 

[Bobojack]

There is a reason why at the first day you were able to play smash4 (e3 BestBuy), people were able to do ftilt into fair into ftilt/Bouncing fish etc. with a f**** 3ds as a controller. Because the combos are FREE. You dont have to play a day to be able to do them. Now for melee, the crowds goes nuts every uair to knee you get. Even though it might look like a simple 2 hit combo, Im sitting here maybe getting one every 3rd or 4th stock against a 20XX cpu. Reacting on, in smash4 almost nonexisting it feels like, DI is required for combos in melee, in smash4 not nearly as it is in melee.

Edit to the guy below: Is a punishgame really good if most of the strings require a coin toss to decide if the string goes on rather than pure reaction and option coverage doing this?

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Nice triple post

The issue with Sm4sh combos isn't that something is guaranteed or not. The issue is most combos are either free or reliant on bad opponents. Not to mention the free combos aren't even spread out among the characters. I mean, if you're going to **** up the combo system and make everything completely guaranteed or completely not, at least do it for more people than sheik, diddy, and maybe luigi.

When you jump up to follow up a launcher in Sm4sh, it's a bait, not a combo. Baits are interesting and a cool part of gameplay, but they are not combos. You can avoid 95% of Sm4sh "combos" if you hold away and mash jump+airdodge. Unless you're like 2 feet off the ground. You don't even have to time it due to the buffer system. If you wanna play a game without combos at least pick a good one like Divekick.

EDIT: Also for the guaranteed Melee follow ups, it still accounts for the defender's (s)DI. People can mindgame their way out of M2k's Marth FD chaingrab by slight DI behind + Shine. It's hard, and if M2K was perfect they wouldn't have it, but it's not free. Free means you don't have to work for it. Even what you'd call guaranteed in Melee your opponent can still make harder on you, or try and throw you off.

if you jump,,ur in a bad position ,,if you airdodge it can be read and punished,,and wtf is a 'launcher'

 

[NoviceSmasher]

There is a reason why at the first day you were able to play smash4 (e3 BestBuy), people were able to do ftilt into fair into ftilt/Bouncing fish etc. with a f**** 3ds as a controller. Because the combos are FREE. You dont have to play a day to be able to do them. Now for melee, the crowds goes nuts every uair to knee you get. Even though it might look like a simple 2 hit combo, Im sitting here maybe getting one every 3rd or 4th stock against a 20XX cpu. Reacting on, in smash4 almost nonexisting it feels like, DI is required for combos in melee, in smash4 not nearly as it is in melee.

knees are not hype in melee,you see like 15 every time falcon is on screen,so what your telling me is that the crowd cheers for bad di...

 

[Bobojack]

Nice double post.

I didnt say knees were hype, combos into knee are, if you have barely put any time into melee. And you can get uair into knee even with good DI on the opponents part. Idk where you got that from.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Nice double post.

I didnt say knees were hype, combos into knee are, if you have barely put any time into melee. And you can get uair into knee even with good DI on the opponents part. Idk where you got that from.

so how is up air to knee hype if its so easy to land even when the opponent has 'good di'.saying how many posts i do at once isnt really relevant.

 

[Spak]

please show me all this campy gameplay,,i think you people watched one apex top 8 and formed an opinion solely on that.

Just decided to look up a random match with M2K and this came up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYQT7elqobs

Compare that to a Melee M2K game and you can tell Melee is much more agressive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHhVPpSUh_E

Not to mention that Diddy Kong M2K's main and one of the most aggressive characters in the game. Playing safe is just a better option in Sm4sh than in Melee.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Just decided to look up a random match with M2K and this came up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYQT7elqobs

Compare that to a Melee M2K game and you can tell Melee is much more agressive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHhVPpSUh_E

Not to mention that Diddy Kong M2K's main and one of the most aggressive characters in the game. Playing safe is just a better option in Sm4sh than in Melee.

i will agree you that playing safe is a better option in smash 4 than melee,but it doesn't change the fact that people are winning using aggressive gameplay.

 

[Spak]

i will agree you that playing safe is a better option in smash 4 than melee,but it doesn't change the fact that people are winning using aggressive gameplay.

We are disagreeing on this because we are looking at the game from two different perspectives. You don't see it as campy because you are using a standard Sm4sh match as a point of reference, while I see it as very campy because I'm using a standard Melee match for reference. There is no baseline for a perfect balance between aggressive and defensive in a Smash game, and it's unlikely there ever will be one.

 

[kingPiano]

i will agree you that playing safe is a better option in smash 4 than melee,but it doesn't change the fact that people are winning using aggressive gameplay.

please show me all this campy gameplay,,i think you people watched one apex top 8 and formed an opinion solely on that.

Novice c'mon man. Stop spamming the same thing over and over. You just said yourself that the top 8 were all campy defensive players. That means that to win you have to play campy and defensive. You're now arguing against yourself, people will stop taking you seriously (if they already haven't)

Also don't double and triple post, use the reply button multiple times if you have to and combine them into a single post. The mods and admins will get on you if you continue to double and triple post like a n00b, it's a common rule on any board.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Novice c'mon man. Stop spamming the same thing over and over. You just said yourself that the top 8 were all campy defensive players. That means that to win you have to play campy and defensive. You're now arguing against yourself now, people will stop taking you seriously (if they already haven't)

Also don't double and triple post, use the reply button multiple times if you have to and combine them into a single post. The mods and admins will get on you if you continue to double and triple post like a n00b, it's a common rule on any board.

apex was one tournament..... it was pooled incorrectly so top players had to fight each other early so it really shouldnt count..im not contradicting myself i said that it is easier to be safe in smash 4 than melee...but one tournament top 8 and you think that it completely defines the game? thats just moronic.i watch nearly every smash 4 tournament stream and all of them are entertaining bar apex ,dabuz abadongo.and dont say im spamming,,im acc thinking about what im saying..if you want to see spamming look at how many times people have said campy,defensive on this thread.

 

[Pwii]

if you jump,,ur in a bad position ,,if you airdodge it can be read and punished,,and wtf is a 'launcher'

If you jump+airdodge, you lose stage position, but edgeguarding is so hard in this game because of the bs sweetspots all over the place it's really easy to mitigate that. It's avoiding damage by giving up stage, which you can gain back by rolling or just knowing that edgeguarding is really difficult. Besides, you're admitting that combos are escapable as long as you give up stage, which is not only a better option than taking damage, but easily mitigated. And a launcher is a move that launches opponents.

apex was one tournament..... it was pooled incorrectly so top players had to fight each other early so it really shouldnt count..im not contradicting myself i said that it is easier to be safe in smash 4 than melee...but one tournament top 8 and you think that it completely defines the game? thats just moronic.i watch nearly every smash 4 tournament stream and all of them are entertaining bar apex ,dabuz abadongo.and dont say im spamming,,im acc thinking about what im saying..if you want to see spamming look at how many times people have said campy,defensive on this thread.

It's not that the majority of Sm4shers play campy, it's that it's the best playstyle. Apex is the biggest Sm4sh tourney yet, and it had the most defensive play. That means the strategy that worked the best on the highest level (so far) was camping. Also what's this **** about bad seeding, you can't just say that without backing it up.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

If you jump+airdodge, you lose stage position, but edgeguarding is so hard in this game because of the bs sweetspots all over the place it's really easy to mitigate that. It's avoiding damage by giving up stage, which you can gain back by rolling or just knowing that edgeguarding is really difficult. Besides, you're admitting that combos are escapable as long as you give up stage, which is not only a better option than taking damage, but easily mitigated. And a launcher is a move that launches opponents.

It's not that the majority of Sm4shers play campy, it's that it's the best playstyle. Apex is the biggest Sm4sh tourney yet, and it had the most defensive play. That means the strategy that worked the best on the highest level (so far) was camping. Also what's this **** about bad seeding, you can't just say that without backing it up.

edge-guarding is hard but it takes time and practice,,thats what the pros are for perfecting edge guards and stuff like that.And giving up stage is a pretty big deal in any smash game.about seeding look up nakats reddit post bout smash 4 at apex..just google nakat reddit smash 4 apex,sorry bout no link ,,im on the wii u internet browser.

 

[_A1]

i would argue that baiting and punishing airdodges gives the game an interesting punish game.

You can do that in Melee too, especially when it comes to edgeguarding and gimping.