Why the hate on smash4?

[Roukiske]

ye we'll see how numbers change over time...you wana play sometime??

I just downgraded my internet so I gotta work out a few kinks and I get lag spikes which is pretty annoying. If it gets fixed soon then sure. We can discuss adding each other through PM's.

 

[StrikeBlade]

I'm a Smash 4 player through and through, and though I've dabbled in Melee and P:M, I really don't like them much. But I get the appeal, really.

Melee is way unforgiving if you're playing it on a competitive level. Because of the insane amounts of manual dexterity, and decisions players have to make per second, there's a lot more tension because it's very reactive. One wrong move, one mistimed click of the R button, and it's all over. You airdodged off the stage and died. You missed your tech. You DIed wrong, and got destrolished. You don't get to make mistakes. Every stock is a hyper fast Dragonball esque bout where an outsider to the game wouldn't even be able to follow what's happening aside from the fact that characters keep getting repeatedly bumped and bounced off the screen. (People say Melee is more fun to watch, but for this reason I really disagree. It resembles competitive Tennis more than it resembles a fight.)

I won't comment on Brawl because frankly I hate it

But to me, Smash 4 seems to take all the best bits from Brawl and Melee and refines them. There are advanced techniques, but they're nowhere near as arcane and weird as the ones from Melee. There are combos that can be VERY Melee esque if you're ANY good at it at all. I recommend watching the Art of Kirby video that's currently on the front page to see what I mean. And because it's really easy for characters to recover it encourages players to take risks and go deep for that KO. And CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4! Even ones considered "Low Tier" can do incredible, dangerous things if you aren't careful and count them out. Even the lowest tier characters, like Samus or Lucina can be viable if you know what you're doing! Even Marth, who's not quite what he was in his glory days can still hang with the best of them as long as you play like you ARE Marth and be accurate and precise with your strikes. Tiers matter LESS in Smash 4 than they ever have, and that's beautiful. The game is slower, but it's a trade off. It's a trade off from a twitchy reactive, mega aggressive game to a more cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level AND have alot of that same twitch based dexterity.

I super love Smash 4, and yeah I'm posting that on the Melee Forum.

 

[Bobojack]

And CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4! Even ones considered "Low Tier" can do incredible, dangerous things if you aren't careful and count them out. Even the lowest tier characters, like Samus or Lucina can be viable if you know what you're doing! Even Marth, who's not quite what he was in his glory days can still hang with the best of them as long as you play like you ARE Marth and be accurate and precise with your strikes. Tiers matter LESS in Smash 4 than they ever have, and that's beautiful. The game is slower, but it's a trade off. It's a trade off from a twitchy reactive, mega aggressive game to a more cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level AND have alot of that same twitch based dexterity.

The game is out for barely half a year and went through patches with another one comming up this week. You can clearly see a tierlist evolving every tournament the game lives through. Many people arent familiar with some new or old characters but they learn how to beat the worse chars each day. You cant really say that the tierlist is "balanced" even though there are a handfull of chars clearly having an advantage over the rest of the roster while other chars lack any good options against these. Right now, you can have succes playing many chars but I tell you, most of these people who may cause upsets or get into Top 8 with a "low tier" will have a worse time getting these results every day the meta evolves resulting in them either not getting good results or a main switch. The moment the best player of a char switches his main due to bad results, most people are going to accept this characters flaws. In one year, I bet that the tier list will look like in any other game with multiple different chars: unbalanced. Some chars are bad, some are good and some beat them all. Thats how a tier list works and I wouldnt talk about a "balanced" roster, if the meta isnt even one year old.

 

[Malkasaur]

I'm a Smash 4 player through and through, and though I've dabbled in Melee and P:M, I really don't like them much. But I get the appeal, really.

Melee is way unforgiving if you're playing it on a competitive level. Because of the insane amounts of manual dexterity, and decisions players have to make per second, there's a lot more tension because it's very reactive. One wrong move, one mistimed click of the R button, and it's all over. You airdodged off the stage and died. You missed your tech. You DIed wrong, and got destrolished. You don't get to make mistakes. Every stock is a hyper fast Dragonball esque bout where an outsider to the game wouldn't even be able to follow what's happening aside from the fact that characters keep getting repeatedly bumped and bounced off the screen. (People say Melee is more fun to watch, but for this reason I really disagree. It resembles competitive Tennis more than it resembles a fight.)

I won't comment on Brawl because frankly I hate it

But to me, Smash 4 seems to take all the best bits from Brawl and Melee and refines them. There are advanced techniques, but they're nowhere near as arcane and weird as the ones from Melee. There are combos that can be VERY Melee esque if you're ANY good at it at all. I recommend watching the Art of Kirby video that's currently on the front page to see what I mean. And because it's really easy for characters to recover it encourages players to take risks and go deep for that KO. And CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4! Even ones considered "Low Tier" can do incredible, dangerous things if you aren't careful and count them out. Even the lowest tier characters, like Samus or Lucina can be viable if you know what you're doing! Even Marth, who's not quite what he was in his glory days can still hang with the best of them as long as you play like you ARE Marth and be accurate and precise with your strikes. Tiers matter LESS in Smash 4 than they ever have, and that's beautiful. The game is slower, but it's a trade off. It's a trade off from a twitchy reactive, mega aggressive game to a more cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level AND have alot of that same twitch based dexterity.

I super love Smash 4, and yeah I'm posting that on the Melee Forum.

I would have to disagree with you. Melee isn't just about your technical skill (See BORP, a top player in his region who has little to no tech skill. Also see Dark, without a doubt the most technical Fox player in the world, who still loses to ZeRo, who, while being a good at Melee, is nowhere near being a top level player.). Smash 4 is not like Melee at all. It's pretty different from Brawl too. The advanced tech in Smash 4 is useless. The combos in Smash 4 are repetitive. Up Tilt into UAir string with Mario, Down Throw Up Air with a lot of characters, Luigi's followups from Down Throw, it's all extremely repetitive. Smash 4 has too many auto combos. The combos are not "Melee esque" at all. Look at AriqueNuubs, the best Melee combo video IMO. The combos are varied and you dont see any repeats. Then, look at Smash 4 combos. Hell, you don't even have to look at AriqueNuubs, most BRAWL combo videos showcase better combos than Smash 4. And the game does not reward you for going offstage, if anything, it punishes you for trying to get a gimp. You can go far off stage to try to get the KO, but you wont get it, and they'll just recover anyways. You'll recover, sure, but you'll get Ledge Trumped pretty quickly. The game rewards less skilled players, what with all of its free combos, broken rolls, and easy recoveries. Also, just because there are more viable characters doesn't make it a good thing. There are many characters in Smash 4, but IMO, NONE OF THEM are interesting. Brawl was more interesting. You can like Smash 4 and dislike Melee and P:M all you want. But your reasons are dumb IMO.

 

[Racuncai]

Melee is way unforgiving if you're playing it on a competitive level. Because of the insane amounts of manual dexterity, and decisions players have to make per second, there's a lot more tension because it's very reactive.

There are advanced techniques, but they're nowhere near as arcane and weird as the ones from Melee. There are combos that can be VERY Melee esque if you're ANY good at it at all. I recommend watching the Art of Kirby video that's currently on the front page to see what I mean. And because it's really easy for characters to recover it encourages players to take risks and go deep for that KO. And CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4! Even ones considered "Low Tier" can do incredible, dangerous things if you aren't careful and count them out. Even the lowest tier characters, like Samus or Lucina can be viable if you know what you're doing! Even Marth, who's not quite what he was in his glory days can still hang with the best of them as long as you play like you ARE Marth and be accurate and precise with your strikes. Tiers matter LESS in Smash 4 than they ever have, and that's beautiful. The game is slower, but it's a trade off. It's a trade off from a twitchy reactive, mega aggressive game to a more cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level AND have alot of that same twitch based dexterity.

I super love Smash 4, and yeah I'm posting that on the Melee Forum.

Those are some reasons why melee a good competitive game.

1- Way unforgiving if you're playing it on a competitive level.
That's called punish game, is a fundamental part of every fighting game, if a fighter doesn't punish you for making mistakes is not a good fighter and this is balance because is hard to get good combos and people can defend very well from them.

2- Insane amount of manual dexterity.
Every fighting game needs that to be good, a tech skill cealing it separates players by execution skills, i don't understand why people think that is a bad thing, encourages players to keep trainning to keep learning get better over time, been hard is a good thing, if you want to be competitive and be good work hard for it, easy games are not competitive.

3-Decisions players have to make per second.
Again that's a good thing there's a lot of options and you need to think fast about then, every competitive game needs this, a mental burn , i don't know why people think that an slow game with less options has more strategy because you have more time to think about just a few things...... is more easy to adapt in games like that.... that's not competitive i don't get it.

about smash 4.
1-There are advanced techniques.
like what?
rolls?

2-There are combos that can be VERY Melee esque.
like 2 hit combos and 3 hit combos with a bad di?
even if you land something there's not a tech chase to keep the punish going they go back to neutral.....

3-And because it's really easy for characters to recover it encourages players to take risks and go deep for that KO.
this is a bad design choise why?
the person how wins de neutral must keep that advantage until the other players take risk to make the game even,
why even in a recovering situation the game is even in a perpetual neutral game?
I don't get it....

4-CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4!
The game is new we can't talk about balance, and for some hoo haa reasons a lot of people will disagree.

5-More cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level.
Noup, is slower and has less options, more time to think a less information to process is not "more cerebral", fundametal and basic is not competitive.

 

[Nokturnith]

Just because a game is a different game doesn't mean someone who likes Melee is going to dislike Smash 4. I like Melee for all the crazy stuff and advanced techniques that are possible, but I also like Smash 4 because it's easier to get into, features a lot of newcomers that I like and its Online Play.

my dude. i was kidding

Just because a game is a different game doesn't mean someone who likes Melee is going to dislike Smash 4. I like Melee for all the crazy stuff and advanced techniques that are possible, but I also like Smash 4 because it's easier to get into, features a lot of newcomers that I like and its Online Play.

i play smash 4 more than melee actually. im sorry about that thoooo

 

[StrikeBlade]

Those are some reasons why melee a good competitive game.

1- Way unforgiving if you're playing it on a competitive level.
That's called punish game, is a fundamental part of every fighting game, if a fighter doesn't punish you for making mistakes is not a good fighter and this is balance because is hard to get good combos and people can defend very well from them.

2- Insane amount of manual dexterity.
Every fighting game needs that to be good, a tech skill cealing it separates players by execution skills, i don't understand why people think that is a bad thing, encourages players to keep trainning to keep learning get better over time, been hard is a good thing, if you want to be competitive and be good work hard for it, easy games are not competitive.

3-Decisions players have to make per second.
Again that's a good thing there's a lot of options and you need to think fast about then, every competitive game needs this, a mental burn , i don't know why people think that an slow game with less options has more strategy because you have more time to think about just a few things...... is more easy to adapt in games like that.... that's not competitive i don't get it.

about smash 4.
1-There are advanced techniques.
like what?
rolls?

2-There are combos that can be VERY Melee esque.
like 2 hit combos and 3 hit combos with a bad di?
even if you land something there's not a tech chase to keep the punish going they go back to neutral.....

3-And because it's really easy for characters to recover it encourages players to take risks and go deep for that KO.
this is a bad design choise why?
the person how wins de neutral must keep that advantage until the other players take risk to make the game even,
why even in a recovering situation the game is even in a perpetual neutral game?
I don't get it....

4-CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4!
The game is new we can't talk about balance, and for some hoo haa reasons a lot of people will disagree.

5-More cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level.
Noup, is slower and has less options, more time to think a less information to process is not "more cerebral", fundametal and basic is not competitive.

1: Advanced Techs: Jump Cancel Glide Toss, Perfect Pivoting, Spike Locks, Jab Locks, and stage spiking.

2: You clearly haven't played enough of the game if you think all combos are 2 hits with bad DI.

3: You complain about things being easy to do, and yet when the game encourages you to do something harder and more dangerous, you complain about that as well. You won't ever see casuals chase offstage.

4: Son, ****ing Donkey Kong can Hoo Hah. Everyone can ****ing Hoo Hah. It's not just Diddy.

5: You're being extremely narrow-minded. Slower does not always mean less competitive, because if it did we wouldn't have games like ****ing Chess. There are a lot of slower games that are still played competitvely. Street Fighter 4 is about the same pace as Smash 4, maybe faster by a hair?


Didn't I say that I saw the APPEAL of Melee? I get why people enjoy it? I didn't say MELEE SUX!!!! SMAHS 4 5EVER!

I said I get why people dig Melee. I suppose it was my mistake to ever assume one of the people on the Melee forum could ever see anything from a different point of view and see the appeal of a game that isn't their precious baby gamecube game. This is another reason that I'm not a fan of Melee, btw. Its community is largely biased, toxic and elitist in my experience. I actively don't want to play with a lot of the people who play Melee as I typically find it to be a bad time.

 

[Bobojack]

He just criticized your questionable reasoning, calm down a bit. And that with a reason.

Also, why tf do people call it perfect pivoting? This "AT" existed for ages and was always called (empty) pivot.

 

[StrikeBlade]

He just criticized your questionable reasoning, calm down a bit. And that with a reason.

Also, why tf do people call it perfect pivoting? This "AT" existed for ages and was always called (empty) pivot.

*sigh*

Okay, you know what, you're right.

It's just that I've had this same conversation with a lot of Melee players and exactly 0 of them have ever given me any legitimate reason why one game is somehow more "valid" than the other. It almost always comes down to being more technical and more faster-er-er

Which is what I said exactly. Smash 4 is a different game with different rules but I fail to see how it makes it any less competitive or fun or exciting just because you cant L-Cancel.

 

[Racuncai]

1: Advanced Techs: Jump Cancel Glide Toss, Perfect Pivoting, Spike Locks, Jab Locks, and stage spiking.

Like @ Malkasaur said before, they are useless.

2: You clearly haven't played enough of the game if you think all combos are 2 hits with bad DI.

Just see apex top 8, the best of the best, 2 hit combos and camping.

3: You complain about things being easy to do, and yet when the game encourages you to do something harder and more dangerous, you complain about that as well. You won't ever see casuals chase offstage.

there's something called straw man fallacy, read a bit about it, regarding the edge guard is not about been hard or easy(again strawman fallacy) the edguard situacion is not a high risk high reward, it's design to be just another part of the neutral game.

4: Son, ****ing Donkey Kong can Hoo Hah. Everyone can ****ing Hoo Hah. It's not just Diddy.

Straw fallacy (again), like a said before the game is new, we can't talk about balance, and sm4sh player are the ones how talk about diddy i'm not an sm4sh player.

5: You're being extremely narrow-minded. Slower does not always mean less competitive, because if it did we wouldn't have games like ****ing Chess. There are a lot of slower games that are still played competitvely. Street Fighter 4 is about the same pace as Smash 4, maybe faster by a hair?

Do you even read what i said?
been slower is just one part, the other is the lack of options and don't talk about other games please, i was talking about the flaws and bad design choises of sm4sh, i refute the points of melee because you were the one how talk about melee.

less options = less information to think about.
an slower game = more time to think.
that's easy to understand, it has less strategy overall.

 

[Bobojack]

I am not an elitist. I started playing Brawl semi-competitive and I enjoyed it
and thus waited days for the new direct for smash4 even though I already started playing melee before all that smash4 hype. I looked on smashboards to see peoples thoughts on the game and how it looks from the sight of a competitor. To kill my time waiting for the game, I continued playing melee. When the game got released, I was already scared of what was going to happen. All my friends play (ed) smash4 semicompetitive while I simply couldnt enjoy smash4 due to major things that made the game more or less FRUSTRAITING to play but I continued playing it while still playing melee. After about 2 months since the game got released, I barely even played it while putting even more time into melee. I made a conclusion: I straight up dont have to defend the game(what I did at the time) because it frustrated me and all of its flaws just werent there in melee. While smash4 had more character which I all liked from the idea, playing as or against them wasnt fun at all due to the games physics.

Now, I highly welcome improvements for the game and I still like it casually but what I dont like is, when people like you defend the game in a straightup incorrect fashion, having many not thoroughly thought of arguments which are simply not valid arguments. Racuncai probably didnt want to trash the game to prevent him doubting melees future, he just didnt want people like you spreading unreasonable arguments and trying to defend smash4 which is completely unnessecary because you and me know what game is fun in OUR opinion.

 

[Roukiske]

@ StrikeBlade you bring up so good points, but as someone who does play both I'm going to have to disagree with some points there.

Yes there are AT's in the game, but they aren't really super helpful in the long run and some are only useful on certain characters or very specific situations. To name one, perfect pivoting really hasn't shaped the meta at all yet. I could see its uses, but rolling or just dashing away is pretty much just as good.

Combos in this game are... well you used the word melee-esque which IMO is a no no. They are not very melee-esque. Yes, there are combos, but the problem is that they are very percent and character dependent. I also sort of dislike how some people say something is a combo when it is easily escapable. Many combos are used the rack up damage which is cool, but there aren't enough kill combo's (which generates hype). Let me elaborate on this a little bit:

Hoo-hah. Ya, it's the ability to down-throw up-air with Diddy. You also say other characters can do it. While this is true for a SMALL pool of characters, this is only at low percents for many. My issue with hoo-hah is that it kills for Diddy. No one to my knowledge has a more guaranteed throw to kill combo other than Diddy and that is my problem with it. I invite kill combos for characters at semi high percents because I don't want to be sniping kills with the only 2 good moves from my move pool. As an example, Falcon can "hoo-hah" as others say and it is pretty guaranteed. I can only do this until a mid percent then to kill someone (who plays smart), I have to snipe for a bair to get the KO. Otherwise, I'm sniping for a throw, jab, or tilt, just to get them off the stage where this is can also be a problem:

The off stage game could have been interesting because as you say it invites players to go deep for the KO. The reason that the off stage game is not good is that air-dodges are too good. You can go deep for a back air, but a simple air dodge into the oppponent's recovery move and now they're back on the ledge safe and sound. I have not seen enough people try the ledge-trump into guaranteed edge guard tech yet.

I know I listed some bad things here, but the game was close to having some really good stuff. A few physics and game flaws keep it from being something a little better. I will say that the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh was a step in the right direction though. Some think it's the same game, but looking at it, they really tried to improve it. It was improved, but it just wasn't enough. For starters, I will say, don't nerf Diddy. The way he moves and his speed should be close to the standard of how most characters should move. If everyone was "like" Diddy, this game could be miles better.

 

[Chez G.]

The way he moves and his speed should be close to the standard of how most characters should move. If everyone was "like" Diddy, this game could be miles better.

This. All of this!

 

[Pwii]

I'm a Smash 4 player through and through, and though I've dabbled in Melee and P:M, I really don't like them much. But I get the appeal, really.

Melee is way unforgiving if you're playing it on a competitive level. Because of the insane amounts of manual dexterity, and decisions players have to make per second, there's a lot more tension because it's very reactive. One wrong move, one mistimed click of the R button, and it's all over. You airdodged off the stage and died. You missed your tech. You DIed wrong, and got destrolished. You don't get to make mistakes. Every stock is a hyper fast Dragonball esque bout where an outsider to the game wouldn't even be able to follow what's happening aside from the fact that characters keep getting repeatedly bumped and bounced off the screen. (People say Melee is more fun to watch, but for this reason I really disagree. It resembles competitive Tennis more than it resembles a fight.)

I won't comment on Brawl because frankly I hate it

But to me, Smash 4 seems to take all the best bits from Brawl and Melee and refines them. There are advanced techniques, but they're nowhere near as arcane and weird as the ones from Melee. There are combos that can be VERY Melee esque if you're ANY good at it at all. I recommend watching the Art of Kirby video that's currently on the front page to see what I mean. And because it's really easy for characters to recover it encourages players to take risks and go deep for that KO. And CHARACTERS! There are SO MANY characters and they're all so GOOD in Smash 4! Even ones considered "Low Tier" can do incredible, dangerous things if you aren't careful and count them out. Even the lowest tier characters, like Samus or Lucina can be viable if you know what you're doing! Even Marth, who's not quite what he was in his glory days can still hang with the best of them as long as you play like you ARE Marth and be accurate and precise with your strikes. Tiers matter LESS in Smash 4 than they ever have, and that's beautiful. The game is slower, but it's a trade off. It's a trade off from a twitchy reactive, mega aggressive game to a more cerebral, strategic game that still requires you to understand how it works on a fundamental level AND have alot of that same twitch based dexterity.

I super love Smash 4, and yeah I'm posting that on the Melee Forum.

A competitive level by definition is unforgiving. If you are afraid of failing you are not cut out for any competitive scene.
You are basing your impressions of Melee on fastfallers. You can play Puff if your fingers can't take it like hbox. Or go for Marth or Sheik. Btw if your fingers aren't fast enough for them they are not fast enough for fighting games period.
You can get destrolished if you DI bad, or survive insane kill moves via amsa tech. Why would you want to give up an area you can improve to the game's engine when Melee leaves it in your hands? Unless you think that you're bad at DI and want to minimize that badness instead of gitting gud.
The fact that you think Sm4sh combos are like Melee's shows that you don't understand Melee.
Sm4sh players say **** like "Sm4sh requires more thinking", which shows you don't understand Melee, so you don't think it requires the same level of thinking (seriously watch PPMD analyze his set vs Armada or Zhu and Cactuar talk analyze anything). This isn't even something I'm calling you out on, I don't get most of what goes on in high-level Melee matches because of how complex it is. It's like saying you think that rock-paper-scizzors requires more thinking than Chess because you don't understand how castling works.

*sigh*

Okay, you know what, you're right.

It's just that I've had this same conversation with a lot of Melee players and exactly 0 of them have ever given me any legitimate reason why one game is somehow more "valid" than the other. It almost always comes down to being more technical and more faster-er-er

Which is what I said exactly. Smash 4 is a different game with different rules but I fail to see how it makes it any less competitive or fun or exciting just because you cant L-Cancel.

It is less creative. It has less depth. It has less viable playstyles. What is good competitively is not what is fun.

 

[Jebus244]

*sigh*

Okay, you know what, you're right.

It's just that I've had this same conversation with a lot of Melee players and exactly 0 of them have ever given me any legitimate reason why one game is somehow more "valid" than the other. It almost always comes down to being more technical and more faster-er-er

Which is what I said exactly. Smash 4 is a different game with different rules but I fail to see how it makes it any less competitive or fun or exciting just because you cant L-Cancel.

They probably think they have to definitively prove that melee is better. That's not an argument, that's an opinion. The argument should be focussed on the fact that they are so different in gameplay and mentality, one is better suited for competition over the other.

 

[MCDMars]

For me it's just not what I want in a competitive game. I guess I understand why people enjoy it, but I'll never play it beyond a party game. I just like fast and technical games because I feel like I've got control of my character

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Wow, this does bring back memories.

Scrubs... Scrubs everywhere... Not even going to point fingers or argue with anyone here but I am seeing quite a few mentally challenged people with extremely stupid opinions about smash 4.

At this point I have no hate for smash 4 as a game. It's not my cup of tea but it's not the worst game ever.

The big issue I have is with all these pseudo-competitive casuals that have come crawling out of the woodwork like termites... a mix of people who are genuinely new to smash, and salty casuals that have hated on melee and it's advanced gameplay for many years.

Go to r/smashbros and see for yourself. Every 2nd thread is a link to someone's horrible gameplay "SICK DAIR ON 4GLORY M8" or blatant scrub whining "HOW DO YOU BEAT SPAM???"

This always happens though. It's the "shiny and new" effect. Sadly, scrubs seem to think that if they play a fighting game when it's released that they are magically all on the same level and all have a chance of beating all the tournament goers that wiped the floor with them in prior iterations of super smash brothers.

Give it a year or two and all of these players will eventually give up, considering they don't have a winning mind set.

Smash 4 will improve in the future. Give the scrubs time to find some other game to play & find excuses for not winning and the community for the game will improve. Until then, it's like a tire fire... you just gotta let it burn itself out.

 

[Malkasaur]

Wow, this does bring back memories.

Scrubs... Scrubs everywhere... Not even going to point fingers or argue with anyone here but I am seeing quite a few mentally challenged people with extremely stupid opinions about smash 4.

At this point I have no hate for smash 4 as a game. It's not my cup of tea but it's not the worst game ever.

The big issue I have is with all these pseudo-competitive casuals that have come crawling out of the woodwork like termites... a mix of people who are genuinely new to smash, and salty casuals that have hated on melee and it's advanced gameplay for many years.

Go to r/smashbros and see for yourself. Every 2nd thread is a link to someone's horrible gameplay "SICK DAIR ON 4GLORY M8" or blatant scrub whining "HOW DO YOU BEAT SPAM???"

This always happens though. It's the "shiny and new" effect. Sadly, scrubs seem to think that if they play a fighting game when it's released that they are magically all on the same level and all have a chance of beating all the tournament goers that wiped the floor with them in prior iterations of super smash brothers.

Give it a year or two and all of these players will eventually give up, considering they don't have a winning mind set.

Smash 4 will improve in the future. Give the scrubs time to find some other game to play & find excuses for not winning and the community for the game will improve. Until then, it's like a tire fire... you just gotta let it burn itself out.

Good point. I guess I'll try my best to avoid Smash 4 players since they're just gonna leave soon anyways.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Good point. I guess I'll try my best to avoid Smash 4 players since they're just gonna leave soon anyways.

Well that's not fair. Not all smash 4 players are scrubs. You can't generalize or else you seem like an elitist.

What I'm saying is that melee has a better scene because the weak players have been herded out.

I feel bad for the legitimate smash 4 competitive players that have to deal with these scrubs all day, honestly.

But yeah dude, don't argue with idiots... you can't teach stupid. Scrubs want to take out their anger on you, because deep down they hate themselves and don't actually want to win.. they want to complain about why they DON'T win.

 

[kingPiano]

A scrub is a guy that thinks he's fly :'(

 

[StrikeBlade]

@ StrikeBlade you bring up so good points, but as someone who does play both I'm going to have to disagree with some points there.

Yes there are AT's in the game, but they aren't really super helpful in the long run and some are only useful on certain characters or very specific situations. To name one, perfect pivoting really hasn't shaped the meta at all yet. I could see its uses, but rolling or just dashing away is pretty much just as good.

Combos in this game are... well you used the word melee-esque which IMO is a no no. They are not very melee-esque. Yes, there are combos, but the problem is that they are very percent and character dependent. I also sort of dislike how some people say something is a combo when it is easily escapable. Many combos are used the rack up damage which is cool, but there aren't enough kill combo's (which generates hype). Let me elaborate on this a little bit:

Hoo-hah. Ya, it's the ability to down-throw up-air with Diddy. You also say other characters can do it. While this is true for a SMALL pool of characters, this is only at low percents for many. My issue with hoo-hah is that it kills for Diddy. No one to my knowledge has a more guaranteed throw to kill combo other than Diddy and that is my problem with it. I invite kill combos for characters at semi high percents because I don't want to be sniping kills with the only 2 good moves from my move pool. As an example, Falcon can "hoo-hah" as others say and it is pretty guaranteed. I can only do this until a mid percent then to kill someone (who plays smart), I have to snipe for a bair to get the KO. Otherwise, I'm sniping for a throw, jab, or tilt, just to get them off the stage where this is can also be a problem:

The off stage game could have been interesting because as you say it invites players to go deep for the KO. The reason that the off stage game is not good is that air-dodges are too good. You can go deep for a back air, but a simple air dodge into the oppponent's recovery move and now they're back on the ledge safe and sound. I have not seen enough people try the ledge-trump into guaranteed edge guard tech yet.

I know I listed some bad things here, but the game was close to having some really good stuff. A few physics and game flaws keep it from being something a little better. I will say that the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh was a step in the right direction though. Some think it's the same game, but looking at it, they really tried to improve it. It was improved, but it just wasn't enough. For starters, I will say, don't nerf Diddy. The way he moves and his speed should be close to the standard of how most characters should move. If everyone was "like" Diddy, this game could be miles better.

I don't disagree with you. I didn't mean to say the combos are Melee-esque, but I do think a lot of Melee-esque things happen.

As for everyone else who replied I just want to reiterate that I really am a devoted Smash 4 player, and you wouldn't be wrong in saying that I'm a total Melee scrub. I gotta disagree with some of you. I still think competitive games are fun. I play Guilty Gear and I'm pretty okay at it and I think that's fun AND competitive. I disagree with the notion that they are not synonymous.

Also, I am sorry about how defensive I suppose I got, I certainly made some bold claims, and who am I really to come onto your boards and complain about your game.

At the end of the day Smash 4 and Melee are two DIFFERENT games. They reward different things, and are played in different ways. I stand by what I said about Smash 4, because I really believe it. It's not to say Melee doesn't have it's intense moments of strategy either, because I have watched Melee, and to be honest I could call it "beautiful" to watch good Melee players do their thing.

It just comes down to my personal preferences I guess. I don't have the reaction time to play Melee. I'm too attached to my Smash 4 characters to go back 2 generations of hardware so I can play Princess Peach and MAYBE Marth.

Smash 4 is about different things than Melee is, one way or another whether you consider it the importance of chasing offstage or the % at which things kill or the way you move around or whatever, they are about different things.

And it just so happens that I see the appeal of one, and I genuinely enjoy the other.

Sorry if I annoyed anybody.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

At the end of the day Smash 4 and Melee are two DIFFERENT games. They reward different things, and are played in different ways. I stand by what I said about Smash 4, because I really believe it. It's not to say Melee doesn't have it's intense moments of strategy either, because I have watched Melee, and to be honest I could call it "beautiful" to watch good Melee players do their thing.

Oii, absolutely agree. I am absolute poop at actually playing Melee on a competitive level seen at a top level (The Gods of Melee are absolutely sick). I know the techs, I can do some great combos every now and then that are so satisfying to pull off. But damn, and it all comes down to preference, but I can't help but feel that the controls are stiff for me. Might just be the fact that tap jump is off and every now and then I occasionally do something silly like tap up on the analog stick juuust enough for me to mistakenly jump, or maybe it's just the games engine itself, but something about it never clicked right with me.

Anyway, on to what I wanted to say regarding this comment, and obviously people will disagree, but for me, nothing beats watching top level Melee play off streams. I am constantly amazed at just how efficiently and seamlessly people can take a stock off. While I may not have the ability to do what others do in Melee, it is inspiring for me and just super entertaining. That being said, no matter how hard I tried getting into the actual game, I am absolute trash. I find it much more fun to watch rather than to play, but again, just my personal preferences.

And it just so happens that I see the appeal of one, and I genuinely enjoy the other.

Sorry if I annoyed anybody.

And isn't that what it all comes down to? I absolutely love playing Smash 4 at a competitive level, but I don't really care to watch it on streams, whereas with Melee I just happen to love watching it so much more than playing it. Years of heart and soul and just tons and tons of practice have gone into a game people are so passionate over, and quite frankly, there's no way in hell I'll be able to catch up with that level of dedication with

Melee.

Everybody has their preferences man. One of my friend is a very dedicated Brawl player, and while it's not my favorite in the series, I respect my friend for pouring so much time and dedication into something he loves. I'll never get into Melee on a competitive level, but I'll never bash anybody who does (Not that many members on Smashboards would let me anyway, lol
). We don't have to like what others like, lets just play our games, support each other and our tournaments, and make a huge positive scene for Smash.

Not all of this was directed necessarily to you by the way, but some of your comments gave me a lot to think about that I wanted to express.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Like @ Malkasaur said before, they are useless.



Just see apex top 8, the best of the best, 2 hit combos and camping.



there's something called straw man fallacy, read a bit about it, regarding the edge guard is not about been hard or easy(again strawman fallacy) the edguard situacion is not a high risk high reward, it's design to be just another part of the neutral game.


Straw fallacy (again), like a said before the game is new, we can't talk about balance, and sm4sh player are the ones how talk about diddy i'm not an sm4sh player.



Do you even read what i said?
been slower is just one part, the other is the lack of options and don't talk about other games please, i was talking about the flaws and bad design choises of sm4sh, i refute the points of melee because you were the one how talk about melee.

less options = less information to think about.
an slower game = more time to think.
that's easy to understand, it has less strategy overall.

A lot of those techs are useful in smash 4, this really shows you have no clue what you are talking about. A lot of people use those a lot in smash 4

Combos are 2-3 hits, that's the same in Melee and PM since most of the time a combo won't be guaranteed past am those 2-3 hits. Which is the same as Smash 4, just easier to understand the Yomi going on at that point.

 

[InfinityAlex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P76CGX8TWC8
This is almost, but not quite relevant.
This, however, is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxZH0fvfJaE

 

[Champ Gold]

I see it like this, Melee is pretty much the king of Smash Bros.

No objections at all considering what it did for the franchise as a whole. Every Smash game has its worth (including Brawl) but still has flaws. Melee has flaws but it's flaws are so minute that it's really hard to point out. The problem is that we live in a day and age where if we have this game and if the next game isn't exactly close to it then it's bad.

Melee brought in that sigma of "every other Smash game is great as a video game but compared to Melee, it's trash" and Smash 4 is no different. It is a little easier to get into than past games but that doesn't hurt it considering the series is a casual party fighter since 64. And even then, I don't think Melee fans truly hate Smash 4 as it seems. I think they are cool with it but prefer TOYAAAHs than HOO HAAs.

Now there will those trolls but I really count them as guys who watch the documentary and think Melee is the only Smash game that's worth it. Plus more of the Smaah 4 hate comes from the Project M camps moreso than Melee since the APEX and VG Boot Camp thing.

 

[_A1]

@ StrikeBlade A lot of Melee-esque things happen in Smash 4? Like what? I'm really curious because I cannot bring myself to believe such a statement without a good amount of evidence to suggest otherwise. The games are so different; it's like night and day almost.

@ #HBC | Red Ryu Smash 4 techs aren't as important to Smash 4 as Melee techs are important to Melee.
Also just because Smash 4 combos might have the same # of hits as Melee/PM(I disagree), doesn't mean that they aren't really linear and bland. Not to mention all the possibilities that tech chasing opens up in Melee/PM. Watch SigMaTV's combo videos and then come back and then try to compare Smash 4's combo game to Melee/PM's.

 

[Roukiske]

To add to the combo thing, another difference between the two games, is the outcome of these combos. If in Sm4sh you could somehow do the most hype 10 hit true combo, but your opponent doesn't get KO'd, then it really drags down the match. There are combos in Melee and Sm4sh used to rack up damage, but there aren't a lot of combos to get the KO in Sm4sh and to me that's a big issue with the end game (and neutral game if you think about it).

At the end of the day, when my opponent in Melee is at a certain %, many characters have options such as a grab, jab, tilt, or weak aerial (many also have more than 1) that will help transition into getting the job done against your opponent. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel in Sm4sh you have to "snipe" for your KO's with very specific moves (many which are very unsafe). I really liked the idea that Diddy could secure a KO with a grab, and I would have liked it if more characters were able to do such a thing. That's not to say there aren't other characters who couldn't do this, but the number of them are way too few (not to mention with recent patches they are getting rid of more of these).

Now, if this sort of poke game at high % is more of your thing (one way to play) then that's okay. I have a friend of mine who is really into Tekken for spacing and pokes, and he enjoys playing Sm4sh in that way which I totally understand. But to those who are looking for the style of gameplay that is Melee, you probably won't find it in Sm4sh.

 

[StrikeBlade]

To add to the combo thing, another difference between the two games, is the outcome of these combos. If in Sm4sh you could somehow do the most hype 10 hit true combo, but your opponent doesn't get KO'd, then it really drags down the match. There are combos in Melee and Sm4sh used to rack up damage, but there aren't a lot of combos to get the KO in Sm4sh and to me that's a big issue with the end game (and neutral game if you think about it).

At the end of the day, when my opponent in Melee is at a certain %, many characters have options such as a grab, jab, tilt, or weak aerial (many also have more than 1) that will help transition into getting the job done against your opponent. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel in Sm4sh you have to "snipe" for your KO's with very specific moves (many which are very unsafe). I really liked the idea that Diddy could secure a KO with a grab, and I would have liked it if more characters were able to do such a thing. That's not to say there aren't other characters who couldn't do this, but the number of them are way too few (not to mention with recent patches they are getting rid of more of these).

Now, if this sort of poke game at high % is more of your thing (one way to play) then that's okay. I have a friend of mine who is really into Tekken for spacing and pokes, and he enjoys playing Sm4sh in that way which I totally understand. But to those who are looking for the style of gameplay that is Melee, you probably won't find it in Sm4sh.

See, I feel the opposite in a way

I like that Smash 4 stocks are drawn out and that characters can survive a really long time unless you're hit with a big, flashy unsafe move (Most of the time) , because I think it makes it feel much more like you WORKED for that kill. You did it! You hit them with your big powerful attack and killed them off the top! Or, you spiked them! Nice!

And there's no like, Bairing an opponent offstage and then just grabbing the ledge so that they fall to their death. I always hated that.

But really, a big part of Smash 4 is knowing what your kill options are. You have to know, as Pit, that you can do any Smash at 115% and they'll die, and also that your Upperdash Arm kills at around 120%, and that your forward throw kills at the ledge at like 100%, AND that you can chase with a Fair, Bair, or Dair to kill of the side or bottom.

It's just that the gimping is nowhere near as good as it was in Melee.

@ StrikeBlade A lot of Melee-esque things happen in Smash 4? Like what? I'm really curious because I cannot bring myself to believe such a statement without a good amount of evidence to suggest otherwise. The games are so different; it's like night and day almost.

I think you should watch a good Shiek player. Shiek can do a lot of crazy combos because she has such little lag, that it's almost akin to having an L-Cancel. My friend can f-tilt,f-tilt,d-tilt, fair, fair, nair, d-tilt, nair, fair, Bouncing Fish and kill. I CAN DI out of that, but it's really hard, and it's a lot of pressure. Shiek is excellent at comboing characters, with the trade off of not dealing high %. Still, 0%-60%? That's pretty darn good. Other characters can also do that sort of thing, but they just do it in less moves, if that makes sense.

I'm not saying that they're exactly the same, the way Shiek operates is extremely different in either game. But it's "Melee-esque". Melee enough. Melee reminiscent.

 

[InfinityAlex]

To add to the combo thing, another difference between the two games, is the outcome of these combos. If in Sm4sh you could somehow do the most hype 10 hit true combo, but your opponent doesn't get KO'd, then it really drags down the match. There are combos in Melee and Sm4sh used to rack up damage, but there aren't a lot of combos to get the KO in Sm4sh and to me that's a big issue with the end game (and neutral game if you think about it).

At the end of the day, when my opponent in Melee is at a certain %, many characters have options such as a grab, jab, tilt, or weak aerial (many also have more than 1) that will help transition into getting the job done against your opponent. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel in Sm4sh you have to "snipe" for your KO's with very specific moves (many which are very unsafe). I really liked the idea that Diddy could secure a KO with a grab, and I would have liked it if more characters were able to do such a thing. That's not to say there aren't other characters who couldn't do this, but the number of them are way too few (not to mention with recent patches they are getting rid of more of these).

Now, if this sort of poke game at high % is more of your thing (one way to play) then that's okay. I have a friend of mine who is really into Tekken for spacing and pokes, and he enjoys playing Sm4sh in that way which I totally understand. But to those who are looking for the style of gameplay that is Melee, you probably won't find it in Sm4sh.

Because being smacked around stage by Diddy all the time is fun now? Too bad they nerfed him!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

 

[Roukiske]

See, I feel the opposite in a way

I like that Smash 4 stocks are drawn out and that characters can survive a really long time unless you're hit with a big, flashy unsafe move (Most of the time) , because I think it makes it feel much more like you WORKED for that kill. You did it! You hit them with your big powerful attack and killed them off the top! Or, you spiked them! Nice!

Basically yes, some people do prefer it this way. Before anyone jumps in I'll say I can tell you didn't mean to say we don't work for Melee kills either. Different skills being used.

Because being smacked around stage by Diddy all the time is fun now? Too bad they nerfed him!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

Doing the smacking is pretty fun, judging from the very few times I've played him.

I would have rather they buffed everyone else (or almost everyone) to have that sort of power, but I suppose that's not what they're looking for in this iteration. If no one else can come close to doing that stuff then yes, the nerf was needed.

 

[Jebus244]

See, I feel the opposite in a way

I like that Smash 4 stocks are drawn out and that characters can survive a really long time unless you're hit with a big, flashy unsafe move (Most of the time) , because I think it makes it feel much more like you WORKED for that kill. You did it! You hit them with your big powerful attack and killed them off the top! Or, you spiked them! Nice!

And there's no like, Bairing an opponent offstage and then just grabbing the ledge so that they fall to their death. I always hated that.

But really, a big part of Smash 4 is knowing what your kill options are. You have to know, as Pit, that you can do any Smash at 115% and they'll die, and also that your Upperdash Arm kills at around 120%, and that your forward throw kills at the ledge at like 100%, AND that you can chase with a Fair, Bair, or Dair to kill of the side or bottom.

It's just that the gimping is nowhere near as good as it was in Melee.

I think you should watch a good Shiek player. Shiek can do a lot of crazy combos because she has such little lag, that it's almost akin to having an L-Cancel. My friend can f-tilt,f-tilt,d-tilt, fair, fair, nair, d-tilt, nair, fair, Bouncing Fish and kill. I CAN DI out of that, but it's really hard, and it's a lot of pressure. Shiek is excellent at comboing characters, with the trade off of not dealing high %. Still, 0%-60%? That's pretty darn good. Other characters can also do that sort of thing, but they just do it in less moves, if that makes sense.

I think what @ R Roukiske is saying is, the way sm4sh makes you play is it makes the player with the percent lead constantly put THEIR neck on the line trying to nail those kill moves when it should be the opposite. The player with high percent gets to defend and look for an opening to attack after the other player uses a kill move, usually with a good deal of risk or a long drawn out neutral. This is just bad! ...imo at least.

The player with a percent lead should be able to look for the same moves in neutral that can lead to a combo that can kill if they read DI properly. The player with high percent should be taking risks to get back in the game, while also having the option to play the neutral normally.

And what you say about sheik is true, but it's unfortunate this does not extend to more characters. If L-cancelling we're in the game, decreasing the majority of the casts' endlag to below hitstun on many moves, this alone would make the combo game better and diversify top tiers. I still don't understand why it isn't in the game. It was intentional in melee, not a glitch.

 

[Spak]

See, I feel the opposite in a way

I like that Smash 4 stocks are drawn out and that characters can survive a really long time unless you're hit with a big, flashy unsafe move (Most of the time) , because I think it makes it feel much more like you WORKED for that kill. You did it! You hit them with your big powerful attack and killed them off the top! Or, you spiked them! Nice!

And there's no like, Bairing an opponent offstage and then just grabbing the ledge so that they fall to their death. I always hated that.

But really, a big part of Smash 4 is knowing what your kill options are. You have to know, as Pit, that you can do any Smash at 115% and they'll die, and also that your Upperdash Arm kills at around 120%, and that your forward throw kills at the ledge at like 100%, AND that you can chase with a Fair, Bair, or Dair to kill of the side or bottom.

It's just that the gimping is nowhere near as good as it was in Melee

Honestly, I like how Melee stocks can either be long or short depending on how well you play. I agree that they are generally MUCH shorter (hence the 2-stock vs the 4-stock rules), but that shows how much more forgiving Sm4sh is. If you mess up, you can get punished much harder in Melee.

Went too deep? The other person hogs the ledge and takes a stock. Didn't space correctly? Could lead to a chaingrab or a death depending on your percent. Missed your sweetspot? A D-Smash is headed straight towards your beautiful Marth tiera. DI also isn't nearly as big in Sm4sh, SDI is nonexistent, and everyone who was in Melee has a much better recovery, some being able to recover from offscreen and make mess ups much more forgivable. The strict punish game from Melee is something that leads to faster gameplay and keeps me more interested as both a spectator and a player.

I guess it's all personal preference if you want a fast unforgiving game or a slow leniant one.

I think you should watch a good Shiek player. Shiek can do a lot of crazy combos because she has such little lag, that it's almost akin to having an L-Cancel. My friend can f-tilt,f-tilt,d-tilt, fair, fair, nair, d-tilt, nair, fair, Bouncing Fish and kill. I CAN DI out of that, but it's really hard, and it's a lot of pressure. Shiek is excellent at comboing characters, with the trade off of not dealing high %. Still, 0%-60%? That's pretty darn good. Other characters can also do that sort of thing, but they just do it in less moves, if that makes sense.

I'm not saying that they're exactly the same, the way Shiek operates is extremely different in either game. But it's "Melee-esque". Melee enough. Melee reminiscent.

This is one of my problems with Sm4sh. It has much weaker DI, so the comboing system feels less dynamic and freestyle than Melee. An example of this is Mario's U-Tilt combo on some characters. Because Mario had such low knock back on his U-Tilt and lack of significant DI, he could do D-Throw U-Tilt combos into itself and then U-Air Up-B at later percents. I've gotten U-Tilted up to about 65-70% before. This is an effective punish, but requires no skill whatsoever.

You can do that with Shiek in Melee, but it's only about 2 hits (and honestly, I think Sheik is an extremely cheap character in Melee, hate playing against her, and wouldn't stoop to the level of playing her).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ StrikeBlade A lot of Melee-esque things happen in Smash 4? Like what? I'm really curious because I cannot bring myself to believe such a statement without a good amount of evidence to suggest otherwise. The games are so different; it's like night and day almost.

@ #HBC | Red Ryu Smash 4 techs aren't as important to Smash 4 as Melee techs are important to Melee.
Also just because Smash 4 combos might have the same # of hits as Melee/PM(I disagree), doesn't mean that they aren't really linear and bland. Not to mention all the possibilities that tech chasing opens up in Melee/PM. Watch SigMaTV's combo videos and then come back and then try to compare Smash 4's combo game to Melee/PM's.

Yes you don't need them as much, but that's more or less what Smash 4 was going for, not trying to put that huge demand there that Melee does.

Melee lets you get away with more but honestly it's not linear or bland either, the combo system is easier in smash 4 but that is a result of the lower skill ceiling the game naturally has.

Melee and PM are two to three hits at most guaranteed baring a few exceptions, I'm not counting chain grabs/wobbling etc in this, there is tech chasing and being able to follow reads in smash 4.

I'm not gonna bother with the video though, I'm willing to bet as long or combo like as it might be, the opponent had a way to escape in some way shape or form.

Which is how smash as a whole works.

A competitive level by definition is unforgiving.

No it's not.

That varies a lot depending on the game.

 

[Malkasaur]

A lot of those techs are useful in smash 4, this really shows you have no clue what you are talking about. A lot of people use those a lot in smash 4

Combos are 2-3 hits, that's the same in Melee and PM since most of the time a combo won't be guaranteed past am those 2-3 hits. Which is the same as Smash 4, just easier to understand the Yomi going on at that point.

I'm sorry but I've never seen people actually use "tech" that Smash 4 has. Especially not at high level play.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I would have rather they buffed everyone else (or almost everyone) to have that sort of power, but I suppose that's not what they're looking for in this iteration. If no one else can come close to doing that stuff then yes, the nerf was needed.

A Dota 2/Project M kind of balance by buffing everyone ends badly.

3.02 was a result of entirely that kind of speed power chase a bunch of characters had. Almost every overpowered character n PM that eventually got nerfed has been the result of the design to try and compete with the spacies instead of just making an average baseline.

To which even in 3.5 Fox is still the best character if not top 3 at least.

I'm sorry but I've never seen people actually use "tech" that Smash 4 has. Especially not at high level play.

They are wasting potential then, it is there. I use pivots and dash techs all the time, many top players do as well if you pay attention.

 

[Malkasaur]

A Dota 2/Project M kind of balance by buffing everyone ends badly.

3.02 was a result of entirely that kind of speed power chase a bunch of characters had. Almost every overpowered character n PM that eventually got nerfed has been the result of the design to try and compete with the spacies instead of just making an average baseline.

To which even in 3.5 Fox is still the best character if not top 3 at least.



They are wasting potential then, it is there. I use pivots and dash techs all the time, many top players do as well if you pay attention.

There's no potential though. This might not apply to everyone, but to me, it seems like people that use the "tech" in Smash 4 are just trying to make the game look better than actually is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There's no potential though. This might not apply to everyone, but to me, it seems like people that use the "tech" in Smash 4 are just trying to make the game look better than actually is.

There is, if you legit think there i none then I have to assume your either ignoring it or just choosing not to look at it.

 

[Malkasaur]

There is, if you legit think there i none then I have to assume your either ignoring it or just choosing not to look at it.

Well I don't remember seeing ZeRo win Apex by using a bunch of "tech" that improved his play...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well I don't remember seeing ZeRo win Apex by using a bunch of "tech" that improved his play...

He was definitely using pivots.

Tech in smash 4 isn't on the same level as wavedashing did for melee, it's not going to 180 the game but it will help gameplay.

 

[Malkasaur]

He was definitely using pivots.

Tech in smash 4 isn't on the same level as wavedashing did for melee, it's not going to 180 the game but it will help gameplay.

Pivots are the only thing useful in Smash 4, but that doesn't matter because they're way too difficult to do. However, pivoting has been in every Smash game.
You don't need pivoting though. It's a good thing to have, but you don't need it. Unlike Melee, you don't really need to learn any of the "tech" to succeed in Smash 4.