Why the hate on smash4?

[Bobojack]

1. I dont want to be part of this game vs. game bs anymore. Im just writing this to reflect my thoughts about the desiscion of dropping the game smash4.


2. I clearly said that combos in melee are hard and also waaay harder than smash4 combos.One of The beautifull things about melee is that you can follow up so many hits compared to smash4 no matter how it is DIed. And NO this doesnt mean that the combos are free.

3. The Thread is called "Why the hate on smash4", so instead of pooping down melee how about saying what is GOOD about smash4.


4. I think its more than enough to say about smash4 edgeguarding that almost every edgeguard performed in tournament gets its own gfycat on reddit. (tbh its also almost just shiek,dedede, villager or weegee who you see doing edgeguards)

 

[Spak]

As a matter of fact, Melee air dodges leave you unable to do anything afterwords (other than move your character horizontally), making the airdodge more risky and punishable if you mess up.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

You can do that in Melee too, especially when it comes to edgeguarding and gimping.

im not insulting melee.....im defending smash 4

 

[_A1]

No need to get defensive. I never said you insulted Melee.

 

[Roukiske]

There's plenty of reasons to not like any game, from the perspective of someone who came from Melee. I'll name a few and these are all just opinion. Please note that I do not necessarily feel this way for all the points I list.

• It is not the proper spiritual successor Melee players wanted (it is a sequel after all)
• With the above comment, it appears there will never be one (they have the power, yet refuse to use it)
  
• It may not be entertaining to watch
• It may not be entertaining to play
• The community (personally I see more whining than I want to. generally goes both ways of course)
• The removal of many options (this includes techniques and functions such as the ledge)
• The current meta of the game (punishes, optimization, goals, etc)
  
• The assumption that players will like/play both games
• False hype (false combos, false USEFUL tech, false depth) [these may exist but the false ones don't help]

I'm quite surprised this thread is still going and can't believe I still follow it. Maybe I'm just curious as to what people think. All in all, it really does depend on the person. I like it. It's not perfect, but I have fun playing it for what it is when I'm not playing Melee. I won't say everything I like about the game as I think the point of this thread is to say why someone wouldn't like the game. I'm sure many of us here can write essays and essays about both games and their strong/weak points.

Lately I haven't heard of anything going on that warrants any war, which is good to hear (this thread was made at the time of the "melee chants" fiasco). Play your game(s), have fun, respect each other as people, yadda yadda.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

There's plenty of reasons to not like any game, from the perspective of someone who came from Melee. I'll name a few and these are all just opinion. Please note that I do not necessarily feel this way for all the points I list.

• It is not the proper spiritual successor Melee players wanted (it is a sequel after all)
• With the above comment, it appears there will never be one (they have the power, yet refuse to use it)
  
• It may not be entertaining to watch
• It may not be entertaining to play
• The community (personally I see more whining than I want to. generally goes both ways of course)
• The removal of many options (this includes techniques and functions such as the ledge)
• The current meta of the game (punishes, optimization, goals, etc)
  
• The assumption that players will like/play both games
• False hype (false combos, false USEFUL tech, false depth) [these may exist but the false ones don't help]

I'm quite surprised this thread is still going and can't believe I still follow it. Maybe I'm just curious as to what people think. All in all, it really does depend on the person. I like it. It's not perfect, but I have fun playing it for what it is when I'm not playing Melee. I won't say everything I like about the game as I think the point of this thread is to say why someone wouldn't like the game. I'm sure many of us here can write essays and essays about both games and their strong/weak points.

Lately I haven't heard of anything going on that warrants any war, which is good to hear (this thread was made at the time of the "melee chants" fiasco). Play your game(s), have fun, respect each other as people, yadda yadda.

its really just respect for each others game,thats all thats needed.

 

[Roukiske]

its really just respect for each others game,thats all thats needed.

I think that is the misconception there. I think we should respect people and what they choose to do with their time, but we don't necessarily have to respect the game they play. I could say I think so and so game sucks for so and so reasons and I just plain don't like it because it is my opinion. With that I can then say that I choose not to play it or follow it. If however you like that game and you like to play it, I should respect that you choose to play and enjoy it.

With the most respectable tone... it is totally okay to say a game sucks (given your preferences and reasons), however it is not okay to say that you (as a player) suck just because you like that game. It sounds kind of mean, but that is how I feel opinions should be.

 

[kingPiano]

its really just respect for each others game,thats all thats needed.

Yea Rouk is saying what we've all been already saying.

You are taking this all way too personally. It's about the game not the people that like said game. I don't respect Jersey Shore as a show and the people that get paid millions just to act like morons, but I have nothing against people that might enjoy watching such brain-dead entertainment. To each their own. Do I wish something else more productive and worthwhile was in it's place? Yes, especially considering how awesome MTV used to be. Same goes for Sm4sh.

The other issue here is that the Sm4sh kids are for some reason desperately wanting Melee player's approval. In general they all seem way too impressionable and seem to lack confidence in their own game (so they come to the Melee forums to be re-assured). You don't need other's approval to enjoy something.



.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Yea Rouk is saying what we've all been already saying.

You are taking this all way too personally. It's about the game not the people that like said game. I don't respect Jersey Shore as a show and the people that get paid millions just to act like morons, but I have nothing against people that might enjoy watching such brain-dead entertainment. To each their own. Do I wish something else more productive and worthwhile was in it's place? Yes, especially considering how awesome MTV used to be. Same goes for Sm4sh.

The other issue here is that the Sm4sh kids are for some reason desperately wanting Melee player's approval. In general they all seem way too impressionable and seem to lack confidence in their own game (so they come to the Melee forums to be re-assured). You don't need other's approval to enjoy something.



.

lol. thats the most condescending statement ihave seen on this entire thread .. i have put about 600 hours into sm4sh and you subtly call it braindead and not productive?WOW and the same goes for melee i see way too many melee kids on the sm4sh threads hating on the game because they see it as a threat to melee.im not looking for your approval i just like to see everyones opinion and gain some respect for smash 4.

 

[kingPiano]

lol. thats the most condescending statement ihave seen on this entire thread .. i have put about 600 hours into sm4sh and you subtly call it braindead and not productive?WOW and the same goes for melee i see way too many melee kids on the sm4sh threads hating on the game because they see it as a threat to melee.im not looking for your approval i just like to see everyones opinion and gain some respect for smash 4.

Sorry did not mean for it to be a direct comparison or to be condescending.

The only reason Nintendo is throwing money at it currently is to promote the newest game and to increase their sales (it's advertising, people watch tourney matches and buy the game). It also has the lowest bar to entry, most people can pick up and play and when they watch pros they feel like they aren't too far behind from the start. This is DEFINITELY not the case for Melee, most people are extremely confused and depressed when they realize how high the learning curve is on Melee. It does take 1-2 years to even look close to how the pros play and move.

Sm4sh is not a threat, it is temporary since the community and the venues will not support it for long (especially once Nintendo's money stops coming.) It will fade away just like Brawl. You don't want to hear this since you are investing a lot of time into it, but it's the truth.

 

[Roukiske]

lol. thats the most condescending statement ihave seen on this entire thread .. i have put about 600 hours into sm4sh and you subtly call it braindead and not productive?WOW and the same goes for melee i see way too many melee kids on the sm4sh threads hating on the game because they see it as a threat to melee.im not looking for your approval i just like to see everyones opinion and gain some respect for smash 4.

I think you are reading too much into it, I believe @ kingPiano was saying the show in his analogy is brain-dead and unproductive, not Sm4sh...

 

[Racuncai]

Based @ kingPiano
like you said, for nintendo it's just business, some of my friends talk to me about how they get bored of the game just for playing it about a few times, they even need to work hard to win, they just repeat whatever they see efective.

And no matter how many matches i see, i don't find any depth on the game there are only basic moves for a basic and easy extrategies, and no matter if we don't like a game, if it's hard, complex and has depth we can apreciate those qualities and understand the hype for the players and even get hype for a game that we even play (just see my profile picture).

hype in sm4sh?
force to the end of the world, nothing happens in that game.

 

[ONLYUSEmeFEET]

Smash4 doesn't have its own meta yet. It took Melee a few years to become awesome, same with Smash4. Game/rules will eventually adapt to be hype.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

I think you are reading too much into it, I believe @ kingPiano was saying the show in his analogy is brain-dead and unproductive, not Sm4sh...

but he said 'same goes for sm4sh'

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Based @ kingPiano
like you said, for nintendo it's just business, some of my friends talk to me about how they get bored of the game just for playing it about a few times, they even need to work hard to win, they just repeat whatever they see efective.

And no matter how many matches i see, i don't find any depth on the game there are only basic moves for a basic and easy extrategies, and no matter if we don't like a game, if it's hard, complex and has depth we can apreciate those qualities and understand the hype for the players and even get hype for a game that we even play (just see my profile picture).

hype in sm4sh?
force to the end of the world, nothing happens in that game.

sorry for double posting everyone.....no offence but i dont understand wat ur writing

 

[Roukiske]

but he said 'same goes for sm4sh'

@ kingPiano already said "Sorry did not mean for it to be a direct comparison or to be condescending." so I wouldn't take it as anything negative, it was probably a wording issue.

As I said though, other games don't need to like Sm4sh, and that's okay since video games are a preference like music. Show them good reasons to like it and maybe they can change their mind. Beware though, you can only push a game to the limits it lets you. If it is what it is in the end (good or bad), then we should just be happy with that. I have my own opinion on how far the game can be pushed and it's just not for everyone, but I accept that.

 

[Racuncai]

excuse me, i'm not a native english speaker, what i want to say is, no matter if you don't like or play a particular game, if is depth, if it's complex, if it has a high tech skill ceiling you can understand why people get hype for that game, even you can get hype to.

in sm4sh at least for me that does not happen, why?
it's too basic, i don't find any depth on the game, even with customs, will not change much.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

excuse me, i'm not a native english speaker, what i want to say is, no matter if you don't like or play a particular game, if is depth, if it's complex, if it has a high tech skill ceiling you can understand why people get hype for that game, even you can get hype to.

in sm4sh at least for me that does not happen, why?
it's too basic, i don't find any depth on the game, even with customs, will not change much.

sm4sh with customs changes the game alot ,it helps characters in matchups,customs can be counter picked depending wat character ur fighting,and even with customs off the game when played at a high level is all about reads,pressure and spacing,fundementals really.if there was two things i d change inthe game its the addition of l-cancelling at shied stun but other than that nothing.

 

[Racuncai]

if you read one of my earlyest post on this thread you will understand why i think sm4sh is lacking on the fundamentals of a figthing game, the flaws of his design and poor competitve elements.

 

[Payton]

Smash 4 is not inherently bad, its actually a good game like brawl was. The only reason people hate on smash 4 and brawl is because its not a competitive game, its more of a sit down on the couch with friends and play a couple of casual matches.

 

[_A1]

Smash4 doesn't have its own meta yet. It took Melee a few years to become awesome, same with Smash4. Game/rules will eventually adapt to be hype.

That's a really dumb comparison people make too often. How could the development of Smash 4 reflect the development of Melee?
Here's why not:
1. The internet and all that allows for Smash 4 to develop much faster than most of Melee's years.
2. When Melee came out the competitive scene was pretty small.
3. There's simply LESS THINGS TO DEVELOP within Smash 4's engine. Melee was only made to be casual. Smash 4 is straight-up rigged to be casual.

 

[Bobojack]

sm4sh with customs changes the game alot ,it helps characters in matchups,customs can be counter picked depending wat character ur fighting,and even with customs off the game when played at a high level is all about reads,pressure and spacing,fundementals really.if there was two things i d change inthe game its the addition of l-cancelling at shied stun but other than that nothing.

New MUps with customs which counter each other just makes the character picking a RPS-game and doesnt add much depth at all.

 

[VioletScarlett]

Because it's "BUH BUH NOT MELEE 2!!!"

 

[The Prince L]

Because it's "BUH BUH NOT MELEE 2!!!"

Nope.

 

[Bobojack]

Because it's "BUH BUH NOT MELEE 2!!!"

Not in the least.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Sorry did not mean for it to be a direct comparison or to be condescending.

The only reason Nintendo is throwing money at it currently is to promote the newest game and to increase their sales (it's advertising, people watch tourney matches and buy the game). It also has the lowest bar to entry, most people can pick up and play and when they watch pros they feel like they aren't too far behind from the start. This is DEFINITELY not the case for Melee, most people are extremely confused and depressed when they realize how high the learning curve is on Melee. It does take 1-2 years to even look close to how the pros play and move.

Sm4sh is not a threat, it is temporary since the community and the venues will not support it for long (especially once Nintendo's money stops coming.) It will fade away just like Brawl. You don't want to hear this since you are investing a lot of time into it, but it's the truth.

that really seems like pure speculation rather than 'the truth' .venues arnt just supporting it becaz of nintendos money,its becaz there is interest in the game.

 

[Malkasaur]

Because it's "BUH BUH NOT MELEE 2!!!"

-_- typical smash 4 kid...
You know, I was actually really looking forward to Smash 4. I was willing to accept it for whatever it was, I didn't care that it wasn't Melee. I'm tired of people making the assumption that Melee players only like Melee and won't play anything else. I like Smash 64. I like Melee. I didn't like Brawl too much, and I hate Smash 4. I don't like Melee only, I like GOOD games. If Smash 4 was actually good, there would be less hate towards it.
Smash 4 didn't need to be Melee 2, it needed to be good.

 

[Malkasaur]

That's a really dumb comparison people make too often. How could the development of Smash 4 reflect the development of Melee?
Here's why not:
1. The internet and all that allows for Smash 4 to develop much faster than most of Melee's years.
2. When Melee came out the competitive scene was pretty small.
3. There's simply LESS THINGS TO DEVELOP within Smash 4's engine. Melee was only made to be casual. Smash 4 is straight-up rigged to be casual.

Jesus this is exactly what I try to tell people. Smash 4 is never going to be as fast as Melee.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

-_- typical smash 4 kid...
You know, I was actually really looking forward to Smash 4. I was willing to accept it for whatever it was, I didn't care that it wasn't Melee. I'm tired of people making the assumption that Melee players only like Melee and won't play anything else. I like Smash 64. I like Melee. I didn't like Brawl too much, and I hate Smash 4. I don't like Melee only, I like GOOD games. If Smash 4 was actually good, there would be less hate towards it.
Smash 4 didn't need to be Melee 2, it needed to be good.

nice opinion

 

[Racuncai]

That's a really dumb comparison people make too often. How could the development of Smash 4 reflect the development of Melee?
Here's why not:
1. The internet and all that allows for Smash 4 to develop much faster than most of Melee's years.
2. When Melee came out the competitive scene was pretty small.
3. There's simply LESS THINGS TO DEVELOP within Smash 4's engine. Melee was only made to be casual. Smash 4 is straight-up rigged to be casual.

1. Because all the things on internet the game will develop his meta much faster rate than any other smash game, and that's a bad thing, people will get bored of it faster (some of my friends get bored of it).

3.That's one of many reasons i think the game has no depth at all, it was made and easy competitive game on purpose, melee was a accident ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxZH0fvfJaE ), but has all the features of a good competitive game.

Bonus point
3.5 They remove all the advance stuff in patches, all it's about reads, it less of a fighter and more of strategy game, a bad strategy game because they don't need to think much about it.

 

[kingPiano]

1. Because all the things on internet the game will develop his meta much faster rate than any other smash game, and that's a bad thing, people will get bored of it faster (some of my friends get bored of it).

3.That's one of many reasons i think the game has no depth at all, it was made and easy competitive game on purpose, melee was a accident ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxZH0fvfJaE ), but has all the features of a good competitive game.

Bonus point
3.5 They remove all the advance stuff in patches, all it's about reads, it less of a fighter and more of strategy game, a bad strategy game because they don't need to think much about it.

I liked your post just based on the numbering system.

1....3....3.5

lol amazing

If Nintendo would quit being prideful and stubborn they could just patch in Wavedashing and all the other wonderful attributes that made Melee the king of all smash games. Then everyone would buy it, everyone would play it, everyone would make sweet sweet smash love, it would last so much longer in the competitive scene, and Nintendo would finally gain my respect (the most important point of them all).

Oh yea and put Bionic Commando and Simon Belmont in the game DARNIT!

 

[Racuncai]

I liked you post just based on the numbering system.

1....3....3.5

lol amazing

If Nintendo would quit being prideful and stubborn they could just patch in Wavedashing and all the other wonderful attributes that made Melee the king of all smash games. Then everyone would buy it, everyone would play it, everyone would make sweet sweet smash love, it would last so much longer in the competitive scene, and Nintendo would finally gain my respect (the most important point of them all).

Oh yea and put Bionic Commando and Simon Belmont in the game DARNIT!

@ _A1 is awesome too bro xD

Sm4sh don't need wavedash or L-cancel to be competitive, the game don't need to be melee 2.0 to be a good competitive game, when i talk about his flaws and bad design choices is about sm4sh, i don't want a melee sequel, i want a good competitive game.

Sm4sh is by far, a not so good one, i can be here for hours talking about said flaws, and why "the hate" on sm4sh.

 

[IdkLmao]

Pride. People like feeling like they're better than someone else. Just don't let it turn toxic like
Or is that too much to ask for on the internet?

Hey whats up this is twilight emblem from another account. I just wanted to say that my original post that you railed on was liked by respectable people in our community like kadano who also happens to be a moderator putting in enormous work to help further the game and 20+ others. In other words. Learn to take a joke. And trying to attack my personal character and questioning my worth as a person over it when i'm not demonstrating any notable lack of good personality in that post especially in front of everybody else under the guise of being a good role model for the community was over the line.

Something didn't sit right with me about this post for a long time which is why I couldn't let it go all this time. I now realize it is because of how profoundly insulting and out line what you said really is.

Do not bother responding. I just wanted to let you know. I hope in the future you'll work on yourself and what you contribute to smashboards. 6,000+ posts and behavior like this is pretty sad. I wonder how many other threads you're infecting with this kind of behavior. I bet they also want you to stop. In fact maybe if you spent more time practicing at this game instead of crap like this you'd be further along and happier in your tournament career and life.

 

[Kadano]

Hey whats up this is twilight emblem from another account. I just wanted to say that my original post that you railed on was liked by respectable people in our community like kadano who also happens to be a moderator putting in enormous work to help further the game and 20+ others. In other words. Learn to take a joke.

For what it’s worth, I gave your post a like 8 days before I became a moderator here. In any case, I don’t think receiving a like by a moderator negates violations of forum rules, and to be honest it’s hard to argue that your post was not trolling (which is to be punished with a 2-point, 14 days infraction according to the forum rules).

My personal agreement on not enjoying Smash 4, which remains unchanged, stands separate from whether you violated forum rules or not. This is not the place to argue about this, though, so if you think your ban was unjustified, please open a thread within the forum support sub-forum to avoid escalation here.

 

[Malkasaur]

@ _A1 is awesome too bro xD

Sm4sh don't need wavedash or L-cancel to be competitive, the game don't need to be melee 2.0 to be a good competitive game, when i talk about his flaws and bad design choices is about sm4sh, i don't want a melee sequel, i want a good competitive game.

Sm4sh is by far, a not so good one, i can be here for hours talking about said flaws, and why "the hate" on sm4sh.

Agreed, Smash 4 fails at being a good enough competitive game. It has many questionable design choices. But if people want to make it competitive, power to them. I think it's stupid, but hey, we made Brawl competitive rig- oh wait Brawl had depth to it....

 

[Malkasaur]

There is something that annoys me about hate towards Smash 4 in general; Smash 4 newbies don't seem to understand the very simple reasons why Smash 4 gets hate. I hear "Oh, you're just a Melee elitist, you aren't willing to play anything but Melee" way too much, and it's annoying. I like 64, I love Melee, I'm getting interested in Brawl, and I hate Smash 4. People need to realize that its not that people aren't willing to give Smash 4 a chance, it's just that we keep giving it a chance, and it fails.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

There is something that annoys me about hate towards Smash 4 in general; Smash 4 newbies don't seem to understand the very simple reasons why Smash 4 gets hate. I hear "Oh, you're just a Melee elitist, you aren't willing to play anything but Melee" way too much, and it's annoying. I like 64, I love Melee, I'm getting interested in Brawl, and I hate Smash 4. People need to realize that its not that people aren't willing to give Smash 4 a chance, it's just that we keep giving it a chance, and it fails.

stop speaking like everything you say is completely true,,the game doesn't fail whatsoever,,its getting good tournament entrants numbers and a good number of viewers when tournaments are on twitch.this is just spreading negativity about the game.

 

[SAUS]

stop speaking like everything you say is completely true,,the game doesn't fail whatsoever,,its getting good tournament entrants numbers and a good number of viewers when tournaments are on twitch.this is just spreading negativity about the game.

I think he means it fails to capture the interest of Melee players rather than failing at being a game that people want to play. It's a point against people saying things like "Melee elitist" and all the things that go along with that, such as not being willing to try out new things.

 

[Roukiske]

stop speaking like everything you say is completely true,,the game doesn't fail whatsoever,,its getting good tournament entrants numbers and a good number of viewers when tournaments are on twitch.this is just spreading negativity about the game.

To be completely honest, the game is new so it does attract attention simply because it is new. It's a good thing since it should have people giving it a try. Once the game stops being "new" then you will really see if the interest is actually there or not. Until then it wouldn't be healthy to start praising numbers.

I played for a pretty long while this weekend online. I came to the realization that if it weren't for online 1v1 in which I get to stomp people (which is fun for me), I probably wouldn't be playing the game as much.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

To be completely honest, the game is new so it does attract attention simply because it is new. It's a good thing since it should have people giving it a try. Once the game stops being "new" then you will really see if the interest is actually there or not. Until then it wouldn't be healthy to start praising numbers.

I played for a pretty long while this weekend online. I came to the realization that if it weren't for online 1v1 in which I get to stomp people (which is fun for me), I probably wouldn't be playing the game as much.

ye we'll see how numbers change over time...you wana play sometime??