Why the hate on smash4?

[EpixAura]

I simply don't like the way the game plays. I was easily a top 10 player in my state from the first day the game came out until the first month or so of the WiiU version, at which point I finally quit because of various reasons (well, I actually 'quit' long before that, but that was the last event I competed at since it was free). Most of my wins came not from outplaying, but outcamping. I threatened timeouts when I had too, I abused rolls in the neutral, fully aware that even if they did read them, the possibility of a strong punish was slim to none, and there were a few sets that I won simply because my opponent got frustrated.

The vast majority of the games I lost were just a result of my opponent abusing the same mechanics, but better. In other words, getting outcamped. This, in addition to the fact that basic options felt disproportionally rewarded compared to reads and proper spacing, as well as the utter lack of proper movement options, ultimately lead me to drop the game. However, I wouldn't actually care if that was it. I would just ignore the game, and roll my eyes and find something else to do whenever it's holding up a Melee stream, but the main problem with the game isn't the game itself.

My main problem with the game comes from being a PM player. Nintendo's involvement in the competitive scene is pretty much entirely due to Smash 4, and the more the competitive Smash 4 scene grows, the longer Nintendo is going to stick around to advertise the game. However, Nintendo's involvement hurts PM growth. It's gotten to the point where I actively discourage everyone I know from playing it.

Yet another problem with the game is how large the scene has gotten in spite of all of this, through no accomplishments of its own. Nintendo had been throwing money at the game months before it's release and generated all sorts of false hype that had nothing to do with the game itself. They made it seem like they understood what the competitive community wanted, and then gave us a game with almost the exact same problems as Brawl, painted over so that people won't notice them at a glance. Why? Either Nintendo is stupid, or they know they can get a lot of money out of the competitive scene by acting like this is the game we've been waiting for. Going by some of Nintendo's recent decisions, probably a combination of both. The fact that Nintendo basically lied to the competitive communities face just bothers me, and the fact that so many new players actually believe it bothers me even more.

I think a fourth reason the game gets so much hate (and this applies not just to me, but pretty much everyone who insults the game), is because of how easy to hate it is. It's not exactly hard to type "LOLOLOL Tr4sh is such a f***ing campfest" into Twitch chat when dozens of people are already doing it. It's to be expected when there's that many people of same opinion hiding beyond anonymity. When people get frustrated at what's being streamed, they'll voice it. Of course, someone will follow, and someone else will follow and so on and so forth. Of course there's also other problems like it taking stream-time away from the game we actually want to see.

tl;dr
The game has problems that extend beyond the gameplay itself. There's an almost comical amount of things to hate.

 

[Thor]

*Stuff about wavedash button*

*Stuff about wavedash button*

*stuff about wavedash button*

Did no one read my post???

From the previous page (slightly edited):

Two shield buttons is technically redundant. Not workable on 3DS, but on Gamecube Controller, replace L or R with an "dash" button that induces wavedashing [it could be an airdash or air and ground]. If it were airdash only, it would be basically allowing people to choose between Melee or Brawl airdodge. If it were a dash in general, it would be the one button wavedash. Yes this slightly hurts people who regularly use both triggers for shielding, airdodging, and teching, but I think people would be willing to work around it [since you can map either button to either trigger]. This would get around the airdodge restrictions [could be 10 frames of lag and helpless and I-frames for airdash, and the current stats for airdodges (because you are still actionable after them)].

Another option is Brawl Minus Fox airdodge - holding no directions while airdoding [just on startup of airdodge] causes a regular airdodge, while holding a direction on the startup of an airdodge induces a Melee-style airdodge [this is why he can wavedash in Brawl Minus]. While you'd have to temporarily release a direction, then continue holding it to airdodge while drifting, this would not have to replace any commands and would re-add wavedashing AND leave the airdodge intact [making the juggling game deeper, due to baiting airdodges requiring tighter timing/frame traps, but still being very much feasible]. Would need to adjust airdodge landing lag if using this method somehow or other.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Most of my wins came not from outplaying, but outcamping. I threatened timeouts when I had too, I abused rolls in the neutral, fully aware that even if they did read them, the possibility of a strong punish was slim to none, and there were a few sets that I won simply because my opponent got frustrated.

That is outplaying someone given it shows you understand a players fundamentals better, which is the most important aspect of Smash 4.

I think a fourth reason the game gets so much hate (and this applies not just to me, but pretty much everyone who insults the game), is because of how easy to hate it is. It's not exactly hard to type "LOLOLOL Tr4sh is such a f***ing campfest" into Twitch chat when dozens of people are already doing it. It's to be expected when there's that many people of same opinion hiding beyond anonymity. When people get frustrated at what's being streamed, they'll voice it. Of course, someone will follow, and someone else will follow and so on and so forth. Of course there's also other problems like it taking stream-time away from the game we actually want to see.

Anonymity is a problem with the internet in general, and it happens with every game.
"PM sucks who cares about this ****ty mod" "People who play PM aren't smashers" "Melee fox dittos, yawn"

Twitch chats could use better moderation on that front, but not really a main concern unless I actually am trying to talk on a stream that I know like Omni's or Wavedash Wednesdays etc. A problem overall but not one that is an easy fix it seems due to how much worse people act due to the anonymity problem.

 

[C-SAF]

Did no one read my post???

From the previous page (slightly edited):

Actually I didn't read ur post lol. Srry I missed it.

I really don't see the need to make wavedashing easier I guess. Its not hard and people who are turned away by it will just be turned away by the next difficult thing they encounter. Im pretty sure I outlined in several of my other posts why the jumping element to wavedashing is important in many instances and how it would have to be made more complicated than a two part (one button, one direction) input.

The second part u outline could be interesting I guess. Im not really sure how it would effect the game in regards to making people more timid to comboing in the air. I feel like safe players might always just wait on the ground to punish landings as an aerial combo would be riskier. Havent really thought it through though so I wont pretend that's a definite or even smart opinion of it.

Im really tired of talking about wavedashing and its merits to be truthful though. The game is the way it is so the only advice to new players that think its to hard/ inefficient (obviously not directed at u Thor) is that its rewarding to learn advanced techniques in the end, and the process of learning them can teach u a lot about the game in other ways.

 

[Thor]

Actually I didn't read ur post lol. Srry I missed it.

I really don't see the need to make wavedashing easier I guess. Its not hard and people who are turned away by it will just be turned away by the next difficult thing they encounter. Im pretty sure I outlined in several of my other posts why the jumping element to wavedashing is important in many instances and how it would have to be made more complicated than a two part (one button, one direction) input.

Like I said, it could be an airdash only [it does shield or something on the ground] so it still has to be jump + L (or jump + R, however it's mapped], I just thought that since the controller has two buttons that do the same thing, one could be changed to do something else [technically the c-stick is redundant as well, but I'm not sure what that could be changed to do].

 

[Spak]

Did no one read my post???

From the previous page (slightly edited):

I saw it, thought it was a good idea, and started to reply to it, but then the conversation shifted from a way to have a WD input to why to have a WD input, so I decided to not reference back to that post and let the conversation take its normal course of action. Then when we got back to the topic, I forgot about your post. Sorry!

Anyways, I thought they were good ideas, but I tend to agree with C-SAF that they don't have to make WD easier. If one were to change the method of WD, I would say that the second option would make most parties mostly happy.

technically the c-stick is redundant as well, but I'm not sure what that could be changed to do.

C-Stick is technically redundant, but a lot of people use it instead of A+Direction for smash attacks and lot of other people use it for aerial inputs, so I wouldn't mess with it.

 

[C-SAF]

Like I said, it could be an airdash only [it does shield or something on the ground] so it still has to be jump + L (or jump + R, however it's mapped], I just thought that since the controller has two buttons that do the same thing, one could be changed to do something else [technically the c-stick is redundant as well, but I'm not sure what that could be changed to do].

I don't even think Sakurai knew what he wanted to do with the c-stick, seeing as he didn't feel the need to put it in training or adventure modes. Such a weird decision.

 

[Chez G.]

Why the hate on Smash 4? I believe it has something to do with...I don't know...how defensive the game is? Coming from 2000+ battles, I'll agree that I've seen players (myself included) using shields while dashing and rolling and what not. I still enjoy the game on a competitive level (this is coming from an avid PM player), but the flaws are noticeable. No one can't doubt that.

The main problem I see is that the offense-defense system is somewhat unbalanced. Here's what I'm talking about. First of all, most attacks are unsafe on shield except for a minute amount of them, usually due to the amount of endlag. Rolls are punishable, but still come out way too fast (namely Little Mac and Rosalina, for example). You can play on the offensive, but what's the reward? Two or three hits?

The game seems to greatly reward defensive play, while slightly rewarding offensive play. Edgeguarding is a pretty good example of this. Just take a look at the recovery of most characters. The ledge mechanics remove edgehogging, making it even easier to come back to the stage. I'm sure that in the future that some people will take advantage of the mechanics by ledge trumping more efficiently, but it's yet to be seen.

Another reason why people may hate Smash 4 is because of how linear it can be, namely the combos. Most of them come from down throw-up air chains (made popular by Diddy's hoo hah!). They just have no style. They have no grace. Bonus points if you guys get that reference by the way lol!

Characters also have to be played in a predetermined fashion, meaning that Mario, for example, has to play based off of reads instead of playing as...say, a rushdown character to perform at least decently. Do the latter and you're screwed. In Melee or PM, the player can decide how to play a character, not the games. Play as a campy Marth, and you can win a match. Play as an aggro Marth, and you can win a match. The games just so happens to have the tools for any kind of play. That's what I like about Melee and PM, ATs aside. Unless custom moves become more common, Smash 4 lacks the ability for the player to be creative with the character they got.

For example, let's go back to Mario. Everybody knows that he can down-throw-up-tilt somebody. Eventually, it becomes expected to the opponent and just becomes "Oh ok, Mario's doing that again." It becomes repetitive, in other words. Maybe you can mix it up with an up smash or down smash, but that's about it.

The next reason why people may hate on Smash 4 was because of overhype. Man, was 2014 the year of overhyped games or something? Anyway, like most people, I had a few expectations, with some a bit high, such as getting Mewtwo back (which we are!). To name a few:

- Tripping was removed (Check)
- More hitstun (There's noticeably more, but only by a margin compared to Brawl)
- Some kind of movement option (Perfect pivoting exists but hardly practical)
- Overall balance between offensive and defensive play (Already talked about this)
- Momentum from dash carried over when jumping (Nope, running jump momentum is still the same as standing jump momentum, which doesn't make sense. It's basic physics!)

These are pretty modest ones I thought were reasonable. I obviously didn't ask for L-canceling or moonwalking or anything crazy like that. I just put out some that make sense. The point is that people had expectations for Smash 4 and the game failed in a few key areas. Of course by then, they are going to be disappointed. What's a better way to express that? Talk trash about it. Ad hominem isn't the smartest idea compared to actually analyzing the faults and leaving it at that instead. But hey, it happens often. You can't blamed the disappointed for being as such, considering how Nintendo was advertising Smash 4 as if it was the next Melee.

tl;dr Smash 4 is still a great game, casually or competitively. It's pretty good at teaching fundamentals and has even improved my PM gameplay a bit. If only I can still play PM without my triggers being messed up though lol! Side thoughts aside, if anyone is going to hate on any Smash game, not just Smash 4 and it's not constructive criticism, it's best to just to either rephrase your frustration or just keep it to yourself.

 

[PKMudkip]

The technical play. Wavedashing, L canceling and SHFFLing are all gone in smash 4 which make more and more people complain. I know some people complain about characters like Roy, Pichu, and Young Link being cut and never returning, hence hating Sm4sh. It isn't as fast Melee (in my opinion, I don't know about other people opinions.) and some say it doesn't have the same hype as Melee (things like the Wombo Combo). The characters that were top tier have been downgraded mostly and new unheard characters have been taking spots instead <insert HOO HAH joke here>. That what I've heard and know about though.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

the game rewards offence and defence equally..spacing and cross ups are required to play aggressively..best players are either really aggressive or really defensive...like zero,nairo,fow,dabuz..i just think people haven't worked hard enough at this game,,zero has played 300 matches with every non-main character in the game and that was like a month ago...perfect pivoting has uses but not alot of people use it....off-stage game is really weak in the current game apart from the top players...game has potential but this is the age of whiny lazy idiots who dont know how to adapt

 

[KyroChao]

Its because sm4sh can be very, very campy. That said, I don't think the game rewards defensive play, but rather wants you to learn to outplay your opponent and read them. Reading your opponent in sm4sh usually leads to wins if you don't let them read you. This rewards playing diversely which in some situations is actually better than melee can be. Its also got a more balanced roster, with more characters being viable. All in all, it adds up to be an ok competitive game. Right?

The haters dont feel the same. To them, if it's not the same as melee, its not worthy of the sm4sh name. You like what you like, and while i like melee much more, i still play sm4sh because it's a different experience. Many of the haters played it once, thought of brawl, and started hating, to make themselves feel better about their game.

 

[Spak]

Its because sm4sh can be very, very campy. That said, I don't think the game rewards defensive play, but rather wants you to learn to outplay your opponent and read them. Reading your opponent in sm4sh usually leads to wins if you don't let them read you. This rewards playing diversely which in some situations is actually better than melee can be. Its also got a more balanced roster, with more characters being viable. All in all, it adds up to be an ok competitive game. Right?

Melee's roster was also pretty balanced in 2002. Comparing the meta of a half-year-old game and the meta of a 15-year-old game isn't really fair... Also, playing defensively is way too safe in Sm4sh; the invinvability frames and distance covered make rolls really good, spotdodges are still really good, but not as good as Brawl's (thank goodness), and not the aerial airdodges while punishable, allow you to easily escape aerial combos that would cost a stock in Melee.

The ledge mechanics, extra invinvability frames and huge undying shields, everyone's OP recoveries, the lack of significant DI (making reading your opponent too easy), and lack of tech skill (thus far) make it worse competitively in my opinion.

 

[KyroChao]

No i definitely agree that melee is the better competitive game, i'm not denying that. Im simply saying that what is has isn't enough to hate on it.

 

[C-SAF]

Melee's roster was also pretty balanced in 2002. Comparing the meta of a half-year-old game and the meta of a 15-year-old game isn't really fair....

This comparison is made way to much. At this time in Brawls life didn't people think Snake was the best in the game? I think that says everything we need to know about trying to judge a games balance just 5 months in lol.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Melee's roster was also pretty balanced in 2002. Comparing the meta of a half-year-old game and the meta of a 15-year-old game isn't really fair... Also, playing defensively is way too safe in Sm4sh; the invinvability frames and distance covered make rolls really good, spotdodges are still really good, but not as good as Brawl's (thank goodness), and not the aerial airdodges while punishable, allow you to easily escape aerial combos that would cost a stock in Melee.

The ledge mechanics, extra invinvability frames and huge undying shields, everyone's OP recoveries, the lack of significant DI (making reading your opponent too easy), and lack of tech skill (thus far) make it worse competitively in my opinion.

airdo

This comparison is made way to much. At this time in Brawls life didn't people think Snake was the best in the game? I think that says everything we need to know about trying to judge a games balance just 5 months in lol.

and none of us are as good as zero or nairo so..

 

[Spak]

airdo

and none of us are as good as zero or nairo so..

I don't know what Airdo is. I also don't see why pointing out Nairo and Zero being better than us in Sm4sh is relevant to the conversation.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

I don't know what Airdo is. I also don't see why pointing out Nairo and Zero being better than us in Sm4sh is relevant to the conversation.

i dont know...everyone has an opinion on the game but its only really the pros opinions that matter

 

[Roukiske]

i dont know...everyone has an opinion on the game but its only really the pros opinions that matter

Normally I would agree with this, but lately in competitive gaming (not just smash), many players out there are dishing out some useful content, tech, and knowledge even though they themselves may not play the game very well. I used to say exactly what you just said, but now I think I've changed it to: educated and thought out opinions matter.

I get what you're saying though, I can only hope the devs know what to listen to.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Normally I would agree with this, but lately in competitive gaming (not just smash), many players out there are dishing out some useful content, tech, and knowledge even though they themselves may not play the game very well. I used to say exactly what you just said, but now I think I've changed it to: educated and thought out opinions matter.

I get what you're saying though, I can only hope the devs know what to listen to.

i'll listen to zeros opinion religiously as he is the best atm

 

[C-SAF]

i dont know...everyone has an opinion on the game but its only really the pros opinions that matter

Its 5 months old and customs have only been a thing for like a month. If Zero and Nairo said it was the most balanced smash game I would tell them they are wrong too. Its way too early. Neither of them would say something like that though because they are pros and they know this lol

 

[Spak]

i dont know...everyone has an opinion on the game but its only really the pros opinions that matter

That's like saying that lots of people have views on Christianity, but only the Priests have opinions that matter... Of course Zero would protect his gaming profession; if Zero said the game didn't have as much competitive potential as Melee, his source of income would be ruined, he would have to go back to Brawl tournaments (a dying scene if not already dead) and PM tournaments (was dying when denied Apex entrance, but hopefully gaining popularity again after the release of 3.6), he would feel as though he wasted hundreds of hours of his life, and the Sm4sh community would be in chaos. Everyone's opinions matter, but they must be based on fact and reason.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Its 5 months old and customs have only been a thing for like a month. If Zero and Nairo said it was the most balanced smash game I would tell them they are wrong too. Its way too early. Neither of them would say something like that though because they are pros and they know this lol

without customs it is the most balanced game bar 64...which doesn't count caz theres like 12 characters

 

[Spak]

without customs it is the most balanced game bar 64...which doesn't count caz theres like 12 characters

Melee's roster was also pretty balanced in 2002. Comparing the meta of a half-year-old game and the meta of a 15-year-old game isn't really fair...

 

[Comet7]

it can be campy, doesn't reward technical play much, and has the least depth of all the games in the series. i still kind of like it because of the graphics and that it's popular now which means there's $$$ with it.

to add onto the metagame comparison, let's keep in mind that the competitive smash community is infinitely larger than when melee started, so the exploration of smash 4 will take less time than that of melee (people are still discovering new things about melee).

emphasis on GLORIOUS HD CAPTAIN FABULOUS

 

[NoviceSmasher]

balance patches will keep everthing in check tho...and yes i heard sakurai saying no more balance patches..and to that i say never trust sakurai

 

[Spak]

to add onto the metagame comparison, let's keep in mind that the competitive smash community is infinitely larger than when melee started, so the exploration of smash 4 will take less time than that of melee (people are still discovering new things about melee).

True, so let's say the discovery-level of Sm4sh is equivalent to around late 2002 Melee. The Melee tier list was still pretty primitive and the meta was underdeveloped:

balance patches will keep everthing in check tho...and yes i heard sakurai saying no more balance patches..and to that i say never trust sakurai

To that I say when they stop making copies of the game, they will stop balancing it. Nintendo is a company, so they won't invest their resources into something that won't give them a profit.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

it can be campy, doesn't reward technical play much, and has the least depth of all the games in the series. i still kind of like it because of the graphics and that it's popular now which means there's $$$ with it.

to add onto the metagame comparison, let's keep in mind that the competitive smash community is infinitely larger than when melee started, so the exploration of smash 4 will take less time than that of melee (people are still discovering new things about melee).

emphasis on GLORIOUS HD CAPTAIN FABULOUS

what does 'doesnt reward technical play' mean?

 

[C-SAF]

without customs it is the most balanced game bar 64...which doesn't count caz theres like 12 characters

I sense trolling, but if not then im gunna say ur being foolish and leave it at that. U should read some old melee threads from like 2003 or 04. Its pretty funny how little they knew about the game even 2years into it. Same for brawl.

 

[The Petalburg]

It honestly bothers me that people would actually discourage love for a different game of the same series. It's really upsetting.

I understand it's opinions and all, but I think there needs to be a 'live and let live' factor that people don't ever take into account.

Personally, I'm not the biggest Melee fan because of how unbalanced it is. You HAVE to play top-tier if you want to get anywhere in the game. Smash4 it's more lenient, and there is more variety in the playing.

Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear, but it's what this made me want to say.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

I sense trolling, but if not then im gunna say ur being foolish and leave it at that. U should read some old melee threads from like 2003 or 04. Its pretty funny how little they knew about the game even 2years into it. Same for brawl.

how am i being foolish?

 

[Spak]

what does 'doesnt reward technical play' mean?

This is technical play. Sm4sh doesn't have the techniques available to pull off stuff like this (at the moment; not sure what people will find over the next few years) and thus has a lower skill cap and doesn't have any technical play to reward.

It honestly bothers me that people would actually discourage love for a different game of the same series. It's really upsetting.

I understand it's opinions and all, but I think there needs to be a 'live and let live' factor that people don't ever take into account.

Personally, I'm not the biggest Melee fan because of how unbalanced it is. You HAVE to play top-tier if you want to get anywhere in the game. Smash4 it's more lenient, and there is more variety in the playing.

Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear, but it's what this made me want to say.

Don't get me wrong; Sm4sh is a wonderful game. It has more content, stages, characters, and a broader soundtrack than Melee. The Melee gameplay, however, is much deeper and more technical. It has a higher skill cap, it is blazingly fast, and extremely fluid, which makes some people like Melee more than Sm4sh.

At the moment, Sm4sh appears to be more balanced than Melee. While it may actually be more balanced, we'll see in the next 5-10 years how balanced the game actually is.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

This is technical play. Sm4sh doesn't have the techniques available to pull off stuff like this (at the moment; not sure what people will find over the next few years) and thus has a lower skill cap and doesn't have any technical play to reward.


Don't get me wrong; Sm4sh is a wonderful game. It has more content, stages, characters, and a broader soundtrack than Melee. The Melee gameplay, however, is much deeper and more technical. It has a higher skill cap, it is blazingly fast, and extremely fluid, which makes some people like Melee more than Sm4sh.

At the moment, Sm4sh appears to be more balanced than Melee. While it may actually be more balanced, we'll see in the next 5-10 years how balanced the game actually is.

there is technical stuff in smash 4 ,,,but its just really hard to do,,i hope someone takes advantage of some of the techniques...i wud but i need to find a gc controller

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

doesn't reward technical play much

Actually it does, the difference is the floor is a lot lower than most other smash games, if not all of them.

I still don't see a lot of players using perfect pivots, foxtrots, run stop cancelling, smart custom usage, knowing how to edgeguard off a ledge trump, smarter read potential, etc.

There is a lot that will develop, for better or for worse.

It's not to the level that Melee is, but that as well is for better and for worse on that front.

 

[Spak]

there is technical stuff in smash 4 ,,,but its just really hard to do,,i hope someone takes advantage of some of the techniques...i wud but i need to find a gc controller

I mean humanly possible tech skill that is useful in a competitive scenario. Some people have tried incorperating perfect pivoting, but it limits your options more than the DD in Melee does and if you mess up, you get stuck in your turnaround animation for quite a while, making it not worth your while. Also, the game's buffer frames wouldn't allow for precise inputs even if there was more advanced tech found. Melee is likely going to be the most technical fighter Nintendo will ever make. I'd be extremely glad to be proven wrong, but that's the way I (and a lot of others) see it.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

I mean humanly possible tech skill that is useful in a competitive scenario. Some people have tried incorperating perfect pivoting, but it limits your options more than the DD in Melee does and if you mess up, you get stuck in your turnaround animation for quite a while, making it not worth your while. Also, the game's buffer frames wouldn't allow for precise inputs even if there was more advanced tech found. Melee is likely going to be the most technical fighter Nintendo will ever make. I'd be extremely glad to be proven wrong, but that's the way I (and a lot of others) see it.

its sad because melee will never grow to like street fighter level of popularity either,,it deserves to aswell

 

[Spak]

its sad because melee will never grow to like street fighter level of popularity either,,it deserves to aswell

I feel like a good amount of people know about it (since the community is constantly growing and I see a few new people on the Melee boards every month), but there will never be enough people that know about competitive Smash until the whole world knows.

The problem is since we are so different from the rest of the fighting game community, a lot of people with a SF or MvC background seem to disreguard us. Out of all of the traditional-style fighters, though, I think that Tekken deserves more attention.

EDIT: On mobile and misclicked to accidentally post, so I finished writing and then edited it in.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Given how Melee and Smash 4 have the huge numbers they do, not just evo, I think people do notice now.

Smash is stronger than ever.

 

[C-SAF]

how am i being foolish?

Theres no way to know the game is the most balanced 5 months in.

Besides im pretty sure PM is easily the most balanced and always will be because of regular patches. The worst character in PM is the equivalent of a solid mid tier in melee.

And of course, balance doesn't make a game. People act like 20XX would be the end of melee but only fox would still be hella interesting. Wont happen but if it did it wouldn't kill the game for me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Theres no way to know the game is the most balanced 5 months in.

Besides im pretty sure PM is easily the most balanced and always will be because of regular patches. The worst character in PM is the equivalent of a solid mid tier in melee.

And of course, balance doesn't make a game. People act like 20XX would be the end of melee but only fox would still be hella interesting. Wont happen but if it did it wouldn't kill the game for me.

Technically regardless of age he might not be wrong on that front, might be easy to forgive on that but right now that could be true.

Side note, I think PM/Smash 4 are the most balanced for the popular titles.

 

[Comet7]

Spak covered what I meant by technical play, which sort of leads into depth but I digress.

Actually it does, the difference is the floor is a lot lower than most other smash games, if not all of them.

I still don't see a lot of players using perfect pivots, foxtrots, run stop cancelling, smart custom usage, knowing how to edgeguard off a ledge trump, smarter read potential, etc.

There is a lot that will develop, for better or for worse.

It's not to the level that Melee is, but that as well is for better and for worse on that front.

you're right about the skill floor being lower, but the skill ceiling from a technical viewpoint is definitely higher for the other games (brawl not as much as the others but w/e) by the sheer amount of useful ATs. dash dancing and foxtrots aren't really that hard, are sort of basic as far as ATs can go, and are only really useful for a few characters (as a falcon main it's nice but it's fraudulent on most of the other characters). PP is the same but slightly more universal imo since it's okay for spacing. i don't see how customs fit into the "technical" area... the frame cancel combos with falco look interesting to me but they rely on getting a hit so they don't seem good to go for (i'm not a falco main so idk that much though). read potential i can sort of see with stuff like air dodge setups but those rely on getting the reads in the first place and can already be punished hard in the other games.

the most balanced game if my opinion matters is PM. stuff like mii swordfighter happens in smash 4 and it's only going to get worse from there as time goes on, though i don't think it will be bad enough to make characters unviable.