Why the hate on smash4?

[Cthulhu_MD]

To those even complaining about why Sm4sh even got the spotlight or the fact of its "runtime" can be broken down to two things:

1. The scheduling was beyond a mess.
2. Nintendo's sponsorship.

Let's go with #1 first. See, Friday, as we all know, was a total disaster due to the hotel. Because of that, we lost a day of the tournament; meaning that any scheduling after would definitely be hindered by only having two days to cover everything. Plus, I think it was on Sunday where things got messy as well. I remember waking up at 9 AM and nothing... Absolutely nothing. Delayed until later and even then, the damage was done.

Onto #2, with Nintendo sponsoring it all, it's no surprise they'd want their newest game to have time on the main stream; especially since the second stream didn't attract as big of a viewership. Plus, VGBC was going to show off the Top 8 of Sm4sh anyway, the only issue again is back to the scheduling of it all.

The way did things, I'm okay with it; not happy of what happened, especially with the timing, but I can see why there were these cases.

 

[Jebus244]

Just because it says SMASH on the box, doesn't make sm4sh part of the "smash community". It's clear to anyone who's developed even casual technical skills in melee that it stands alone, with PM becoming a very promising follow up.

APEX shoved sm4sh down the melee community's throat, and the majority of people weren't watching for sm4sh. People on the sm4sh forums insist melee fans are living in the past, but if one thing remains true, it's that Sm4sh wouldn't even have a platform without melee.

 

[Cthulhu_MD]

Just because it says SMASH on the box, doesn't make sm4sh part of the "smash community". It's clear to anyone who's developed even casual technical skills in melee that it stands alone, with PM becoming a very promising follow up.

APEX shoved sm4sh down the melee community's throat, and the majority of people weren't watching for sm4sh. People on the sm4sh forums insist melee fans are living in the past, but if one thing remains true, it's that Sm4sh wouldn't even have a platform without melee.

Wow, that's some vehement distaste for a game

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Well for one Smash 4 takes significantly longer and is slower in general, with less hype and tension.

half of that sentence is fact other opinion

 

[Jebus244]

Wow, that's some vehement distaste for a game

Well, not really. I can enjoy sm4sh with my friends, but it's bewildering when sm4sh players think that the community just should accept their game as a default.

We're playing 2 different games here! The rules are the same, but the mechanics... I mean, do I even need to say? It's not street fighter 2 vs street fighter IV. It's more like COD vs Counter Strike.

 

[dfrogman]

as others have pointed out, the OP does a good job of summarizing why both sides hate each other

melee players wont shut up about their tech skill and sm4sh players are only capable of talking about it with the passive-aggressive trollbaity rhetoric in the op

What did we got from the Nintendo sponsorship?
No PM?
No Pot Bonus?
Forced to watch Smash 4?

people saying this and meaning it is worse for all of our games than either community of either game hating each other could ever be

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Kadano with the truth.

90% of the people at Apex wanted to see Melee. Leffen slayed the last god, the 1000 $ MM was about to happen, the crowd went wild and then ... Smash 4 top 8 started.
The most anticlimactic Hype-Killer ever.
No wonder everyone goes crazy.

This problem could be solved easily if we had two streams, one for Melee and one for Smash4, but our new glorious sponsorship with Nintendo would never allow that. The viewercount would plummet to the abyss for Smash 4 because a huge amount of people would switch over to the Melee stream in a heartbeat. The 80 k viewers would go down to around 10-20k.

The main thing that annoys me the most as a so called "Melee-Elitist" is that Smash 4(/Brawl) would be nothing without Melee.
If the Melee scene never existed Smash4(/Brawl) would be as competitively played as Mario Party and Nintendo knows this by now so they used the sucsess of Melee to promote there new game.
As a result the Melee players where forced to watch a game they don't want for a whole 3 to 4 hours. No wonder the whole crowd began with a Melee chants directly after Zero won Smash4.

What did we got from the Nintendo sponsorship?
No PM?
No Pot Bonus?
Forced to watch Smash 4?

Imo, just split the communities in two.
Melee/Project M with the strong grassroots community
and Smash 4 with the new Nintendo sponsorship.

People need to realise that the only thing the two games have in common is the name "Super Smash Brothers", other than that they are like black and white.
I have absolutly nothing against Smash4 at all as long as it won't interrupt Melee.

But that's just my 2 cents.

#OneUnit

no facts whatsoever to back up your points..and splitting the community might the single most idiotic thing i have heard in a long time...one bad apex top 8 for smash 4 and this happens ,"split the community in two" genius idea well done..melee fans started this they are in the wrong here,,,noone else..not all of the melee fans ,just some.

 

[Ohsm]

no facts whatsoever to back up your points..and splitting the community might the single most idiotic thing i have heard in a long time...one bad apex top 8 for smash 4 and this happens ,"split the community in two" genius idea well done..melee fans started this they are in the wrong here,,,noone else..not all of the melee fans ,just some.

You're calling me wrong without further explanation.

The two games only share the name "Super Smash Brothers" nothing more.
They are one franchise but two totally different worlds, so why keep them together? Just because of the name?

One Unit is just a lie, everyone wants to push there own game, the demografics of Smash 4 and Melee are simply not overlapping, the drama will never end.

Would a split really be that bad?

What's the benefit for the Melee community to stick with Smash 4?

 

[Roko Jono]

To be fair, both games are insanely different. They have similar "rules" you could say, but they are supremely different. You either play this, or that, or both, and that's that. If you play SF and I play KoF thats cool, don't rag on me I wont rag on you.

Each highly played fighting game got sequels that built upon the previous titles if not at least felt the same. SF2 -> SF3 (favorite!) -> SF4 all feel like Street Fighter to me. MvC2 -> MvC3 feels like a marvel game. All the Tekkens feel like Tekken! They ruined Soul Calibur :[... If you played any of these (seriously give other games a try, its very fun) you can see that they are way more similar than what Melee is to Brawl (I'm going to use Brawl since Sm4sh is young, but lets face it, we have dissected the game HEAVILY already).

Look, if you took MvC2, a very hype game for its time, and released MvC3 with say:

• 5 hit max combos (A B C Launch Spike)
  
• No dashing/airdashing for anyone
• Blocking will block high+low so there are no mixups
• At the end of each combo you got hit so far away you're in far neutral

And then told me that I need to move on from MvC2 and get with the times I would go insane. I'm not saying this is what Melee was to Brawl literally, but this is how I kind of truly felt about it really...

I mean, the Melee community rises gamecubes from the grave to this very day and the competitive scene for smash in general really had a large help (not all) from Melee, if you can't see that then you are very blind. I mean its Super Smash Brothers, if it was Melee2.0 or utter complete garbage it has a cult following of "special people" (not saying us peoeple here, I kind of mean the blind parents and obsessed fanboys of any smash) who would buy the game and play it anyway! If Sm4sh were Melee2.0 would the people who like to get good at the newest games play it anyways? Is there anyone out there who isn't part of the Melee community not think we don't deserve a Melee 2?

I play Sm4sh a whole lot, like 600 matches and my win ratio is like 80% or something and I have to say, the game is NOT THAT DEEP. I accept that it isn't so why can't Sm4sh players accept it too. That's not to say you shouldn't play it. It is what it is.

And stop saying generalizing Melee into infinite combos and cheating. Did you watch Apex? If you told a 64 player their game is all infinites because hitstun lasts 10 seconds you'd be told very wrong in a very angry manner. I could say all Sm4sh is is Diddy fair spacing like I saw ZeRo do. Seriously it was like Puff spacing fairs in Melee until you can get a grab to up-air, but it's more than that to them right?

 

[lijero13ss]

The two games only share the name "Super Smash Brothers" nothing more.
They are one franchise but two totally different worlds, so why keep them together? Just because of the name?

One Unit is just a lie, everyone wants to push there own game, the demografics of Smash 4 and Melee are simply not overlapping, the drama will never end.

Would a split really be that bad?

What's the benefit for the Melee community to stick with Smash 4?

See, this is the type of mentality we are trying to solve. I hope to not offend you in any way, which is not why I am writing this. Anyway, see I do agree that they are completely different games from a competitive standpoint. However, I do not see why there would be a need for a split. I think we need to stick together in order to help the community grow even more.

Phrases like "one unit is a lie" and "What's the benefit for the Melee community to stick with Smash 4?" doesn't really help the situation at all and seems a little selfish making it sound like only the melee scene matters when in fact both of these do

 

[Caryslan]

Just because it says SMASH on the box, doesn't make sm4sh part of the "smash community". It's clear to anyone who's developed even casual technical skills in melee that it stands alone, with PM becoming a very promising follow up.

APEX shoved sm4sh down the melee community's throat, and the majority of people weren't watching for sm4sh. People on the sm4sh forums insist melee fans are living in the past, but if one thing remains true, it's that Sm4sh wouldn't even have a platform without melee.

That's a really great way to look at things, let's go shove Smash 4 and Brawl into a corner and treat them like the black sheep of the community! Melee and Project M should be the only part of the "Smash Community", with 64 maybe getting some side events since it does not really threaten Melee or Project M. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it.

I get it, the majority weren't watching for Smash 4. So, I guess that means we shove the game off into a corner and blast it. Because it's somehow not part of the "Smash Community" and the players who choose to play it might as well play Mario Party.

Are you serious? I don't have an issue with Melee, I'm glad it has its community of players and fans. But you're a hypocrite if you bash the Smash 4 fans and players for blasting Melee fans for living in the past, while pretty much all but slamming Smash 4 for even daring to be part of the Smash Community.

Let me be very blunt here, there are five Smash games that are part of the community. Those are 64, Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Project M. No game deserves to be slammed or discounted because of some magic standard.

Brawl and Smash 4 are not Melee, that much is obvious. But rather then letting those games play in peace, I have seen fanboys slam both games. Admittedly, Brawl kinda ran out of gas and potential once it became "Super Smash Bros: Meta Knight Dittos".

But Smash 4 is a young game, it has tons of potential.

Smash 4 fans that are blasting Melee fans for "not moving on" are wrong, I agree with that. But so is acting like Smash 4 is not a deserving part of the community.

We have five Smash games that the community can enjoy. Each one has different styles of gameplay, rosters, stages, and ideas that separate them. Now, how is that any different from Street Fighter? If you look at it, you have Street Fighter II, Alpha, III, and IV, each of which have the same core gameplay, but different ideas in how they handle gameplay. I know people often prefer one Street Fighter game over another, but I have yet to see a community like the one that follows Smash that is virtually at each others throats.

We just came off of the biggest Smash Tournament of the year, on our way to Evo and we left a bad impression on outsiders looking in. People already doubted Smash having two games at Evo 2015, and how do we show outsiders and other fighting game communities that we belong there? We have Melee and Smash 4 fans slamming each other, and going out of their way to exchange venomous insults at each other while Melee fans disrupt the grand finals of Smash 4.

Here's what I don't get. What does this constant infighting solve? Why not be happy that Smash has a bigger presence then ever before at tournaments and it keeps growing. And while I give Melee all the credit in the world, it alone is not responsible for all the growth of Smash. 64 has its community, and Brawl had a sizable community for many years that also helped grow competitive Smash. But rather then being happy that Smash has grown bigger then it ever was ten years ago with Melee alone, we are engaging in a toxic civil war with people slamming each other.

If it has the words Smash Bros in the title, its part of the Smash Community. The only difference is how each game feels and plays. Enough with the separation!

One other thing I want to bring up is this. Yes, it could be argued that Smash 4 is being helped by the path that Melee forged. But the argument could be made that Street Fighter IV being a major tournament mainstay was because Street Fighter II proved to be a massive success with tournament play or how Marvel vs Capcom 3 benefited from the community that Marvel vs Capcom 2 created.

Sequels generally follow the path that their predecessors forged for them. So, Smash 4 is not bad for taking advantage of a tournament scene that Melee created. Is 64, Brawl, or Project M bad for doing the same thing? Melee was the trailblazer that showed the potential of Smash as a serious game, and helped get people into it.

Melee is a great game, and I'm happy that it has remained popular with a massive group of players that enjoy playing it. But that does not mean go out and demonize every other Smash game that wants to find that same success. Of course, it also goes the other way. Smash 4 fans should also respect Melee fans and their game.

I don't see the constant division between the community being a good thing.

 

[Heavy Gomez]

Wow way to put words in his mouth man. I don't think anyone wants to "shove smash 4 into a corner and treat them like a black sheep", what I think people want is for melee and smash 4 to coexist but not run over each other. Separate streams, same venue, **** like that. Think of it as put them in another room instead of shove them into the corner.

 

[Jebus244]

That's a really great way to look at things, let's go shove Smash 4 and Brawl into a corner and treat them like the black sheep of the community! Melee and Project M should be the only part of the "Smash Community", with 64 maybe getting some side events since it does not really threaten Melee or Project M. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it.

I get it, the majority weren't watching for Smash 4. So, I guess that means we shove the game off into a corner and blast it. Because it's somehow not part of the "Smash Community" and the players who choose to play it might as well play Mario Party.

Are you serious? I don't have an issue with Melee, I'm glad it has its community of players and fans. But you're a hypocrite if you bash the Smash 4 fans and players for blasting Melee fans for living in the past, while pretty much all but slamming Smash 4 for even daring to be part of the Smash Community.

Let me be very blunt here, there are five Smash games that are part of the community. Those are 64, Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, and Project M. No game deserves to be slammed or discounted because of some magic standard.

Brawl and Smash 4 are not Melee, that much is obvious. But rather then letting those games play in peace, I have seen fanboys slam both games. Admittedly, Brawl kinda ran out of gas and potential once it became "Super Smash Bros: Meta Knight Dittos".

But Smash 4 is a young game, it has tons of potential.

Smash 4 fans that are blasting Melee fans for "not moving on" are wrong, I agree with that. But so is acting like Smash 4 is not a deserving part of the community.

We have five Smash games that the community can enjoy. Each one has different styles of gameplay, rosters, stages, and ideas that separate them. Now, how is that any different from Street Fighter? If you look at it, you have Street Fighter II, Alpha, III, and IV, each of which have the same core gameplay, but different ideas in how they handle gameplay. I know people often prefer one Street Fighter game over another, but I have yet to see a community like the one that follows Smash that is virtually at each others throats.

We just came off of the biggest Smash Tournament of the year, on our way to Evo and we left a bad impression on outsiders looking in. People already doubted Smash having two games at Evo 2015, and how do we show outsiders and other fighting game communities that we belong there? We have Melee and Smash 4 fans slamming each other, and going out of their way to exchange venomous insults at each other while Melee fans disrupt the grand finals of Smash 4.

Here's what I don't get. What does this constant infighting solve? Why not be happy that Smash has a bigger presence then ever before at tournaments and it keeps growing. And while I give Melee all the credit in the world, it alone is not responsible for all the growth of Smash. 64 has its community, and Brawl had a sizable community for many years that also helped grow competitive Smash. But rather then being happy that Smash has grown bigger then it ever was ten years ago with Melee alone, we are engaging in a toxic civil war with people slamming each other.

If it has the words Smash Bros in the title, its part of the Smash Community. The only difference is how each game feels and plays. Enough with the separation!

One other thing I want to bring up is this. Yes, it could be argued that Smash 4 is being helped by the path that Melee forged. But the argument could be made that Street Fighter IV being a major tournament mainstay was because Street Fighter II proved to be a massive success with tournament play or how Marvel vs Capcom 3 benefited from the community that Marvel vs Capcom 2 created.

Sequels generally follow the path that their predecessors forged for them. So, Smash 4 is not bad for taking advantage of a tournament scene that Melee created. Is 64, Brawl, or Project M bad for doing the same thing? Melee was the trailblazer that showed the potential of Smash as a serious game, and helped get people into it.

Melee is a great game, and I'm happy that it has remained popular with a massive group of players that enjoy playing it. But that does not mean go out and demonize every other Smash game that wants to find that same success. Of course, it also goes the other way. Smash 4 fans should also respect Melee fans and their game.

I don't see the constant division between the community being a good thing.

I really don't want to shove it into the corner, and I want to believe melee's stream was taken over by sm4sh because of APEX's schedule change and because sm4sh is so new. I play sm4sh, and I'm damn decent. That said, if you feel this passionately about your opinion, I would like you to read this.

Comparing melee's "evolution" to street fighter II vs street fighter IV is not so accurate. It's more like comparing Counter Strike to CoD.

 

[chipz]

I'm a Melee player, and I don't hate Smash 4. Where does that put me?

with 99% of other players?
the opinion that melee is the best incarnation does not imply that we hate smash 4

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Well, not really. I can enjoy sm4sh with my friends, but it's bewildering when sm4sh players think that the community just should accept their game as a default.

We're playing 2 different games here! The rules are the same, but the mechanics... I mean, do I even need to say? It's not street fighter 2 vs street fighter IV. It's more like COD vs Counter Strike.

I'd sig this but people would hate me for it..for no apparent reason outside of "muh Fake ONEUNIT™ ℠ ®", just like how the community is entirely one unit regarding brawl, 64, and Project M.

The games are separate, they should get along but quite simply they don't. Having an opinion doesn't mean you hate the guts of a game.

Melee and Smash 4 took way too much time at Apex, and yes I mean both of them. 3/5 is a hilarious idea, especially in a tournament where there is a blizzard outside, and where people are going to be driving on the road at the earliest 2 and the latest 4:00 in the morning. I'm surprised no one got into an accident on the way home.

 

[C_Mill24]

with 99% of other players?
the opinion that melee is the best incarnation does not imply that we hate smash 4

I personally think Smash 4 is the best Smash incarnation in general. Melee is just the most competitive.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

You're calling me wrong without further explanation.

The two games only share the name "Super Smash Brothers" nothing more.
They are one franchise but two totally different worlds, so why keep them together? Just because of the name?

One Unit is just a lie, everyone wants to push there own game, the demografics of Smash 4 and Melee are simply not overlapping, the drama will never end.

Would a split really be that bad?

What's the benefit for the Melee community to stick with Smash 4?

i was goin to say alot of stuff but then realised,,,melee and smash 4 won't split because nintendo makes the decisions,,and will keep smash 4 with melee to promote the game. and when you split a community there will be major wars over the games,,therefore promoting a bad image for smash as whole

 

[goobaje]

I feel like all the people saying that smash 4 and melee are nothing alike are kinda turning the blind eye. Some tech returned from melee to smash 4, and even though it's clearly not the same game, they have some things that people can both enjoy competitively and casually. I pretty much only play melee, but I think the smash 4 scene has to start somewhere. I don't think putting any game down will help progress the scene as a whole. That's just me tho.

 

[Roukiske]

I feel like all the people saying that smash 4 and melee are nothing alike are kinda turning the blind eye. Some tech returned from melee to smash 4, and even though it's clearly not the same game, they have some things that people can both enjoy competitively and casually. I pretty much only play melee, but I think the smash 4 scene has to start somewhere. I don't think putting any game down will help progress the scene as a whole. That's just me tho.

Hi, I'm one of those guys who thinks they are very different. I do have to say while they do feel the same on maybe a basic level, the way you play and rack up damage and the way you try to setup KO's are very different so it really feels different to me at high level. It's kind of weird for me to say but I see Sm4sh closer to a traditional fighter if that makes sense. There's a lot less options and I feel at certain opponent %'s I am constantly doing specific strings because it is the best option at that moment of time. In melee (to me at least), I feel you have a multitude of options and they all have near maximization outcomes. Think of Sm4sh having solid BnB's I guess. Here's an example, playing as Lucina, I feel at early percents its best to get a full side-b combo ending upwards because it does high damage altogether and sets opponents above you which is bad for the opponent. Any other option to me is wasting damage and setup.

This isn't to say that its a bad game, but since it is different, some people will like it and some wont. I'll respect your game preference, just don't be children about it.

Ah but casually, the games are definitely the same and remember not everyone wants to play competitively.

I'd also like to add about one game being boring issue I've seen around the internet. To be honest, most of the match-ups in high level melee are very fun to watch. Lots of speed and back and forth and combo's everywhere it's pretty exciting. Currently in Sm4sh there are many match-ups that some could consider very boring to watch. I saw a GF with a ZSS and Falcon I have to say that was pretty exciting to watch. Don't knock the whole game for being boring, there's just some match-ups that are less exciting to see is all.

 

[goobaje]

Hi, I'm one of those guys who thinks they are very different. I do have to say while they do feel the same on maybe a basic level, the way you play and rack up damage and the way you try to setup KO's are very different so it really feels different to me at high level. It's kind of weird for me to say but I see Sm4sh closer to a traditional fighter if that makes sense. There's a lot less options and I feel at certain opponent %'s I am constantly doing specific strings because it is the best option at that moment of time. In melee (to me at least), I feel you have a multitude of options and they all have near maximization outcomes. Think of Sm4sh having solid BnB's I guess. Here's an example, playing as Lucina, I feel at early percents its best to get a full side-b combo ending upwards because it does high damage altogether and sets opponents above you which is bad for the opponent. Any other option to me is wasting damage and setup.

This isn't to say that its a bad game, but since it is different, some people will like it and some wont. I'll respect your game preference, just don't be children about it.

Ah but casually, the games are definitely the same and remember not everyone wants to play competitively.

I'd also like to add about one game being boring issue I've seen around the internet. To be honest, most of the match-ups in high level melee are very fun to watch. Lots of speed and back and forth and combo's everywhere it's pretty exciting. Currently in Sm4sh there are many match-ups that some could consider very boring to watch. I saw a GF with a ZSS and Falcon I have to say that was pretty exciting to watch. Don't knock the whole game for being boring, there's just some match-ups that are less exciting to see is all.

Yeah I totally agree with this. Melee competitively requires much more precision and things like that in general. I would have liked to have elaborated on my post more, but I was on my phone. I also think it kinda depends on what character you play for sm4sh, but fundamentally they are different. I really agree that sm4sh seems more like a normal fighting game.

I definitely think they're very different, I didnt mean to come across as if they aren't, but I wanted to get across more that they are still games of the "same" community, and should be respected if we want either of these games to go any further. Basically just respect each other because people shouldn't always enjoy what you do.

 

[Valar Morghulis]

Smash 4 sucks because people just roll everywhere

 

[Quillion]

If I could put it as briefly as possible:
It's that there's no way to move quickly and have freedom of action. Melee allows you to crouch-cancel your dash and wavedash to allow you to move quickly AND have freedom of action. Smash 4 forces you to walk in order to have freedom of action, destroying the flow of the fight.

It's overall a less technical and slower game, meant to be more accessible. It's trying to be the SF4 of Smash by balancing competitive with casual, but then again SF4 is a horrible, overrated game that encourages BS like this:

 

[Lorenzo The Comic]

Am I the only one who doesn't like the removal of edge-hogging?

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Am I the only one who doesn't like the removal of edge-hogging?

I'm right there with you. I think that there's too many things in favor of the recovering character vs the edgeguarding character in Smash 4. That balance is extremely important.

 

[moofpi]

As a mainly Smash 4 player I posted this in a "Is it too late to be a competitive player?" thread and thought it was relevant here.
"I played Melee with friends for years on end (probably my favorite game of all time) and I knew there were local tournaments and stuff but I never knew how big the competitive scene was. I got invited to the local scene a month or so before Smash 4 came out, which I had been hyping about. Here everyone is Melee and PM, but I'd never played the latter or really knew what a wavedash was. Needless to say my Mario got its face stomped in, followed by some trash talk. Then when 4 came out, a lot of us were quarantined from "the real Smash games." But I've been advocating and pushing Sm4sh in our local scene and now it's as big if not a little bigger than Melee and PM attendance at weeklies. I basically dedicated most of my competitive attention to Smash 4 since it's at the beginning of its meta, the wild west and I don't necessarily have to catch up on 14 years of meta. That isn't to say I play it exclusively though. I have been sharpening up my tech skill in Melee and PM and in a way it helped people "respect" me a bit more as a player (which shouldn't be the case, but I get it) and take my notions on Smash 4 more seriously, but it has also helped my game in all iterations of Smash. (Competitively) Coming from Smash 4, it's actually helped my Melee/PM game a lot because apparently I just play differently than Melee/PM players. Whether that's going to be a benefit in the long is to be seen, but it feels good improving at Smash in general."

I came into the scene wide eyed and thought everybody was up for a good time, but apparently it's only certain stages, 1v1 or teams, being called casual, and that Smash 4 the game that wasn't even out yet was trash and isn't going to make it. So that kind of deterred me from going back, but I did because I haven't had anyone to play Smash with in a long time.
When Smash 4 came out, they literally put up dividers between the TV's and the people playing on 3DS's and just laughing. But hey, I'm having fun with the game and going to get better so that when they want to play, we'll see who's better.
Time goes on and the console version comes out, and we have our first big tournament. The top 16 are mostly PM/Melee players and about half of them are just sitting there playing the game against people I know have been practicing at Smash 4 and taking it seriously and they're just laughing and saying how **** the game is and horrible and how they're going to have to wash their hands after this match. When they get knocked out they sigh and say FINALLY. I'm sorry, Melee is great, but who has that strong of opinions? I'm really trying to support this new game living in Melee's shadow, against all this overwhelming, unwarranted disgust, against time slots for Melee and PM, and I JUST WANT IT TO BE GIVEN A CHANCE OF ITS OWN.

It's doing better now, and it can only do better. Custom moves, Custom competitive stages, Replay/Stage sharing, Mewtwo on the horizon, and possibly even some regulated equipment use one day makes the future seem bright in my opinion.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

^It has a chance of its own, but as a sequel in the series, it will always be compared to its predecessors. That's the nature of sequels. Is smash 4 a bad game? Of course not. It's a good game, even if it isn't as competitively focused as Melee or PM. But if you want Smash 4 in a competitive context, and to share its venues with Melee, then it's going to be compared to Melee. And in a competitive context, Smash 4 falls flat compared to Melee. This isn't an insult, Melee's depth is incredible, which is what lends itself to its longevity. It's been 14 years for God's sake, and people are still developing meta. Smash 4 doesn't have that level of depth, and it's a far more casually biased game. There's nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is. If you want to push Smash 4 in your local scene, good on ya man, and I'm not gonna try and put you down for that. But every Smash game has, and will continue to be until Melee is eclipse, compared to the standard that is Melee, and Smash 4 comes up significantly short in the competitive context to Melee.

 

[moofpi]

^It has a chance of its own, but as a sequel in the series, it will always be compared to its predecessors. That's the nature of sequels. Is smash 4 a bad game? Of course not. It's a good game, even if it isn't as competitively focused as Melee or PM. But if you want Smash 4 in a competitive context, and to share its venues with Melee, then it's going to be compared to Melee. And in a competitive context, Smash 4 falls flat compared to Melee. This isn't an insult, Melee's depth is incredible, which is what lends itself to its longevity. It's been 14 years for God's sake, and people are still developing meta. Smash 4 doesn't have that level of depth, and it's a far more casually biased game. There's nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is. If you want to push Smash 4 in your local scene, good on ya man, and I'm not gonna try and put you down for that. But every Smash game has, and will continue to be until Melee is eclipse, compared to the standard that is Melee, and Smash 4 comes up significantly short in the competitive context to Melee.

Well thank you for the most level headed response I think I've ever heard on the issue. I agree on the issue of depth, but while I hope Smash 4 can find some more depth, I feel confident that when let completely off of its leash it will thrive and survive on breadth with the large cast, hundreds of possible movesets and (if equipment is ever allowed) endless variations of player's characters. The meta might end up developing like a Pokémon meta from the looks of it, but we really won't know anything till it takes off.

 

[Massive]

I'm really trying to support this new game living in Melee's shadow, against all this overwhelming, unwarranted disgust, against time slots for Melee and PM, and I JUST WANT IT TO BE GIVEN A CHANCE OF ITS OWN.

This is a big issue here. You want smash 4 to be given what you consider to be "a chance of it's own", but the sobering fact is that it has been given more of a chance than melee ever had. Smash 4 was in Apex, will be in EVO, and is slated for numerous other events before and after then. The smash community at large has given smash 4 the benefit of the doubt in a very real and very big way, regardless of what people complaining on the internet will tell you.

Remember that Melee was NOT respected by the FGC until very recently. We have endured more hate as a scene and worked very hard to get where we are. Your game is still very young, with a lot of people hating on it because it's different and new. Are they right? Are they wrong? We don't know yet. It is up to the smash 4 players to show us the answer.

Will your top players play defensively and make the game ostensibly boring to watch? Will they play aggressively or uniquely and carve out their own entertaining niche? Is there some important tech to be discovered that could increase the depth of the game? We don't really know any of this and we can't yet.

What we do know is this: Smash 4 is being given every chance to succeed right now. Nintendo is sponsoring them, they are being placed in major smash tourneys, they have a huge following and scores of high quality players expanding their meta. If the smash 4 community fails to take a life of it's own, it's their own fault.

Just keep in mind that your community will never earn our respect by complaining, especially when we worked so hard to get where we are. It is not our responsibility to bring hype to smash 4, it is yours.

Overall good luck, most of us are actually trying to help or at least giving it a real chance.

 

[Snowbird]

I just want to make a point that I haven't seen made before. This is purely from my perspective, but from what I have seen, whether on reddit or here or youtube comments, there are about 10 posts of sm4sh players talking about how the melee community trashes on them for every 1 melee post that actually trashes on sm4sh.

It's like the sm4sh community is extremely apologetic and defensive. Like short-man syndrome or something weird. So much so that they even need to come to the melee forum and defend their game. I'd say most of the melee people just quietly dislike sm4sh when viewed in a competitive sense, while many sm4sh people feel EXTREMELY vocal about defending their game.

 

[moofpi]

This is a big issue here.....

This is true, and I hope Smash 4 brings the hype and keeps its own fire going. Though I was talking about being given a chance on a more local level, because I can say I have definitely met direct opposition to it so much that for a while they told us we had to have Smash 4 on a different day than Melee and PM and find someone else to TO them. We've overcome that now, but that was probably the realest things got to a literal schism in the community.

And Melee is a juggernaut that endured more than any other gaming community I can think of, and maybe Smash 4 doesn't deserve a free pass, but does it really have to be hazed by Melee until it considers it worthy? I just feel like it's Brawl bashing continued until wavedashing is brought back. Why does the main force we have to overcome have to be from within? Sorry if I made any generalizations, I really do want us all to get along. And not separate but equal, or you have your streams and we'll have ours and we go our separate ways, I really do want us to be one community, under Smashboards, with liberty and justice for all.[/quote]

 

[Jebus244]

This is a big issue here. You want smash 4 to be given what you consider to be "a chance of it's own", but the sobering fact is that it has been given more of a chance than melee ever had. Smash 4 was in Apex, will be in EVO, and is slated for numerous other events before and after then. The smash community at large has given smash 4 the benefit of the doubt in a very real and very big way, regardless of what people complaining on the internet will tell you.

Remember that Melee was NOT respected by the FGC until very recently. We have endured more hate as a scene and worked very hard to get where we are. Your game is still very young, with a lot of people hating on it because it's different and new. Are they right? Are they wrong? We don't know yet. It is up to the smash 4 players to show us the answer.

Will your top players play defensively and make the game ostensibly boring to watch? Will they play aggressively or uniquely and carve out their own entertaining niche? Is there some important tech to be discovered that could increase the depth of the game? We don't really know any of this and we can't yet.

What we do know is this: Smash 4 is being given every chance to succeed right now. Nintendo is sponsoring them, they are being placed in major smash tourneys, they have a huge following and scores of high quality players expanding their meta. If the smash 4 community fails to take a life of it's own, it's their own fault.

Just keep in mind that your community will never earn our respect by complaining, especially when we worked so hard to get where we are. It is not our responsibility to bring hype to smash 4, it is yours.

Overall good luck, most of us are actually trying to help or at least giving it a real chance.

I can't like this post enough. Sm4sh players can't expect a community to welcome them totally. Yeah, we want you to succeed, I'm rooting for the scene for sure, but this does not entitle you to it. Get gud. Show games. Make hype. You gotta earn your keep.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

@ moofpi

I find Smash 4 to be more of a rock-paper-scissors deal vs Melee's more open approach. Part of why it's so hard to 'get into' Melee is because there are SO MANY options at a given moment, and you have to learn when to do what. Even something as simple as shielding. In Melee, you have to choose between standard shield, powershield/perfect shield/light shield and so on. I personally question Smash 4's competitive depth, and I don't believe that it'll be around with the longevity Melee has.

A big issue people have is that many, many Smash 4 players feel as though Melee players need to get with the times, are losers living in the past because they don't want to learn something new, or are just stubborn and stupid. Melee headlines the Smash scene because it, objectively speaking, is the best competitive Smash game. Many Smash 4 players, especially those new to the scene with Smash 4, are frustrated because Smash 4 doesn't get the respect Melee does. They feel as though Smash 4 should headline because it's new, and Melee is stealing their spotlight or something. The Melee community, for the most part, has no problem with Smash 4 tagging along with Melee to gain some visibility, but any argument that we should hegemonize to Smash 4 is a bit outlandish and ridiculous. Until Melee is supplanted by a better competitive game than itself, it will headline the Smash scene, and it will be the face of the community. People that feel as though Smash 4 should take that mantle are what really piss people off about Smash 4, to be blunt.

A great example of this is at APEX. 99% of the Melee players didn't give a hoot that Smash 4 was there until it was put on stream over Loser's bracket Melee. People say that Smash 4 deserves its own time on stream, etc. Except it doesn't over Melee. Imagine if the Vice President were giving a speech at the same time the President were giving a State of the Union address, and CNN interrupted President Obama's address with VP Joe Biden giving a speech. It doesn't make any sense. Was the response rude? Sure. But it's understandable. Without Melee, Smash 4 wouldn't have any competitive scene at all. Nintendo hated Melee's scene for years, and were it not for Melee's persistence, there would likely not be a competitive Smash community. Melee is still the face of the franchise competitively. So why is Smash 4 on stream instead of Melee? I was at home, but it pissed me off. I don't care about the Vice President. I wanted to see the President's address. Not to mention that many, myself included, feel that this occurred largely at the urging of some 3rd party, whether Nintendo or otherwise.

Another analogy I think is appropriate is Smash 4 is the upstart little brother. The older brother doesn't mind him, until he gets a little too big for his britches.

 

[Massive]

Why does the main force we have to overcome have to be from within?

Because that's your only real problem.

We are competitive gamers. We don't want to "play fair" or hand out participation trophies. We want heroes and devils, champions and underdogs, hard earned victories from years of training, but most of all we want to see and feel real competition. If you can't provide us with something interesting to watch or play then we will continue along as we always have.

If smash 4 wants our respect and admiration they have to prove us wrong, impress us, and earn it.

 

[byebye]

Remember that Melee was NOT respected by the FGC until very recently.

Just keep in mind that your community will never earn our respect by complaining, especially when we worked so hard to get where we are. It is not our responsibility to bring hype to smash 4, it is yours.

seems like melee is doing to 4 what fgc did to smash?

to be fair, smash4 players never complained to get melee's respect, it was melee disrespecting smash4 even though smash 4 did nothing.

 

[moofpi]

Because that's your only real problem.

We are competitive gamers. We don't want to "play fair" or hand out participation trophies. We want heroes and devils, champions and underdogs, but most of all we want to see and feel real competition. If you can't provide us with something interesting to watch or play then we will continue along as we always have.

If smash 4 wants our respect and admiration they have to prove us wrong, impress us, and earn it.

Okay, wait...that's bull****. I understand IN-GAME and smack talk between players, but seriously between games and communities? One game actually has to beat the others and succeed it and the other ones shut up? No. The games can't compete, the only thing that can is the fans of each of one defending their game and attacking the other in retaliation and it ends in the vicious cycle we're in now. And of course there are the people that find good in all the Smash games (yes, even Brawl) that are left wondering what's even happening.

The Melee and Sm4sh sub-groups of the Smash community are currently in this state of competition and it is all a flamewar of both sides making substantiated and unsubstantiated claims that only fuel a split and take all focus off what even brought us to the same topics on the same sites online to begin with. The games we love and play.

Smash 4 has hype sets already and there will be many more. There's no such thing as actually "winning" on the internet, so I guess we'll see if Evo's cool enough to flex Apex's boring ruleset.

 

[Tagxy]

Unfortunately most people talk out of their rear end when they try to discuss the value of the various smash titles, this thread included. Not only have few actually acquired the knowledge and experience to speak informatively on the titles, its rare that anyone actually does research on what it actually means to be competitive. I wouldnt really trust anyone's analysis in here comparing smash titles if it extends beyond personal opinion. Having played plenty of relevant Brawl and Melee competitively and PM/Smash 4 to a lesser extent, the best answer that exists is that even if each title has a similar skill set, each game emphasizes a different set of skills in drastically different ways. The skillset emphasis for Brawl and apparently smash 4 arent palatable to many melee players, which on its own is understandable, but many reactions look insane to any reasonable person. Fortunately community leaders are wiser.

 

[byebye]

If smash 4 wants our respect and admiration they have to prove us wrong, impress us, and earn it.

Issue overall is Smash4 got disrespect off the bat. Just like brawl did last Apex.

Smash4 had an event too, and it was Smash4 and Zero's moment. and instead of letting Smash4 and Zero have a little room to celbrate their biggest tourney. thanks Apex2014 thing happened on Apex 2015. again.

 

[Massive]

@ moofpi I'm not attacking anybody here.
I was trying to explain what it will take to win the melee community over, and the cost is steep. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I think the fact that there are so many events with both melee and smash 4 brackets around as well as the fact that it's going to be at CEO and EVO should show that the community at large is trying to support you guys as best we can. We will remain helpful, yet largely disinterested in your game until there's a good reason not to be, that's basically it.

Issue overall is Smash4 got disrespect off the bat. Just like brawl did last Apex.

Smash4 had an event too, and it was Smash4 and Zero's moment. and instead of letting Smash4 and Zero have a little room to celbrate their biggest tourney. thanks Apex2014 thing happened on Apex 2015. again.

That was a terrible situation, yeah. Anecdotally, the North East region has been known for their excessive trash talking and rudeness since the early days. Extrapolating the entire community based on that tourney/region is not a great idea. I'm not trying to defend them at all here, I am legitimately trying to show you that our actions overall should speak louder than the words of that vocal minority.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Nah it's since the North East/Tri(Hard)-State supports a very competitive lifestyle, make sense then about their trash talking on smash 4....



In all seriousness, it did remind me an awful lot of the previous year.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are 2 main types of Smash 4 hate: hating the game and hating the community. Even if the Smash 4 community disappeared tomorrow, Melee players would still hate on Smash 4 as a game because it's simply isn't as good by any reasonable competitive standard. Melee players hate on the Smash 4 community because they realize almost everyone who plays Smash 4 competitively does so solely because the game is newer. The player base has no interest in which Smash game is the best for competition; they simply hop on the bandwagon. The problem is only exacerbated when players who have next to no understanding of why Melee is better try to insist Smash 4 is on par or even an improvement as a competitive title.

This is very flawed thinking.

That new part might be a factor, but for me it's the fact it improved on an older game I liked, Brawl, and took away all the bull**** I didn't like about it, while letting me play a lot more aggressive with far superior online and match-making.

Also, any game that lets me customize in some shape or form is also appealing to me on that alone, Melee lets me be creative with situations, Smash lets me be creative in movesets and yomi while not needing me to nail down tech skill to a T. I've never been super technical, partly why I play Peach in Melee, and like to learn as I play and improve playing other people vs just from by myself.

That's why it appeals to me.

If anything the problem with people saying, "more competitive" is that they think every smash game is trying to appeal to the same tests and goals, when really they aren't.

It's like Street Fighter 4 v Marvel vs Capcom 3. Both are traditional fighters, but what they test and value as a competitive game are entirely different.

Regardless of what people think of one game or another, respect should still be given.