Why Stages Deserve To Be Banned (And Why You Shouldn't Ban Pokemon Stadium)

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That sounds great until you consider that the Ground and Sky transformations also frequently end up having people wait them out. Now it's more like 1 minute per match rather than just 30 seconds, which is a fair bit in a 5 minute match.

1 minute per match is the worst case scenario with 5 minutes, isn't it? And good rulesets don't use 5 minutes.

that IS the logic they use to ban Wuhu.

It's bad logic and they should feel bad.

Yes, no question. Pokemon Stadium 1 is even worse and would never have been legal if Melee didn't only have 5 good stages. I was pushing to ban this horrible stage in PM from Day 1.

...Right.

I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Terotrous]

Skyloft Delfino and Wuhu either have 1. walkoffs 2. Terrain that hits you or 3. A place to camp for the entirety of the transformation.
Skyloft has all three, Delfino two and wuhu all three.

I'll take all 1 and 2 over "stuff that messes with your movement" any day. There are also very few stops on any stage that are more campable than the Ground transformation.

1 minute per match is the worst case scenario with 5 minutes, isn't it? And good rulesets don't use 5 minutes.

The timelimit actually doesn't change much, since the longer the match, the more times the stage transforms, and the more time we waste on transformations. I'd almost rather just get it over with faster.

...Right.

I'll just leave it at that.

It was a very widely accepted opinion on the PM boards and recent stagelists have removed PS1.


Anyway, on top of this stuff, one big difference the travel stages have compared to PS2 is the way they move between transformations. When the platform leaves, the stage rapidly changes shape, and if you're not near the middle you suddenly have to fight to get back towards the middle. This reduces the effectiveness of camping in ways that PS2 doesn't, since when the transformation goes away you're just back on the stage as usual.

 

[Hippieslayer]

"game more complex>game less complex" is the essential argument of the OP. So long as adaption from players is a possibility it is preferable over banning a stage. Nevermind if anyone actually wants to play it. Nevermind if it changes what the game is in a way that no one likes. Basically nevermind the reasons we are playing this particular game in this particular fashion.

People have to learn to adapt to low gravity and **** because then we can have a more complex game and more complex means more good. Nevermind that's not how things work other than in the phantom realms of BPC's cognitive mishaps, where the theoretical potential of the range of a game's metagame serves as its basis of quality and not the actual stage of potential reached by the game as limited by the circumstances which govern its playing. Nevermind the fact that the argument BPC uses to claim that PS2 should be legal could be used to argue that elements of realtime strategy or dart-throwing should be added to chess, because that would rock since it would make chess more complex and thus a better game. The counterargument is the same in both cases as well. Basically no one wants to ****ing add dart-throwing to chess cause that ain't what chess is about. Adding dart-throwing anyway will yield the result of some few people learning said dart-throwing while the wast majority wont bother.In the end the metagame will be worse of.

 

[popsofctown]

I've heard of Chess / Boxing being a real sport that people have played, alternating between rounds of chess and rounds of boxing. You'll find people that like just about anything.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

After reading most of the messages against PS2, I'm basically hearing, "I dun like it."

Great! I notice this isn't under the critera for stage banning though! :D

A match on PS2 isn't going to break anything. If it does, enough with the theoretical nonsense and show a clip of it actually being abused.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"game more complex>game less complex" is the essential argument of the OP. So long as adaption from players is a possibility it is preferable over banning a stage. Nevermind if anyone actually wants to play it. Nevermind if it changes what the game is in a way that no one likes. Basically nevermind the reasons we are playing this particular game in this particular fashion.

People have to learn to adapt to low gravity and **** because then we can have a more complex game and more complex means more good. Nevermind that's not how things work other than in the phantom realms of BPC's cognitive mishaps, where the theoretical potential of the range of a game's metagame serves as its basis of quality and not the actual stage of potential reached by the game as limited by the circumstances which govern its playing. Nevermind the fact that the argument BPC uses to claim that PS2 should be legal could be used to argue that elements of realtime strategy or dart-throwing should be added to chess, because that would rock since it would make chess more complex and thus a better game. The counterargument is the same in both cases as well. Basically no one wants to ****ing add dart-throwing to chess cause that ain't what chess is about. Adding dart-throwing anyway will yield the result of some few people learning said dart-throwing while the wast majority wont bother.In the end the metagame will be worse of.

The other part of this, of course, has to do with the game's design. We adhere to the design of the game when building a ruleset. Why should "try to maintain the depth contained within the game" have any comparison to "make it a completely different game by adding outside elements"? And it's not my idea - it's David Sirlin's.

 

[Zephil]

In a ruleset that still allows a ridiculous stage as Halberd as a CP it doesn't makes sense to ban PS2. I agree that PS2 should be a CP and I don't think 30s of electric rails its nothing compared to the many minutes Halberd have a platform really close to the top to kill in super early %s of a simple dthrow - uair mixup.

Also can somebody explains to me why Delfino its legal but not Skyworld and Wuhu Island?

I know there is a crazy glitch that GIMR and Coney founded in Wuhu that is degenerate but its super uncommon from what I have seen and I haven't been able to recreate it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

In a ruleset that still allows a ridiculous stage as Halberd as a CP it doesn't makes sense to ban PS2. I agree that PS2 should be a CP and I don't think 30s of electric rails its nothing compared to the many minutes Halberd have a platform really close to the top to kill in super early %s of a simple dthrow - uair mixup.

Also can somebody explains to me why Delfino its legal but not Skyworld and Wuhu Island?

I know there is a crazy glitch that GIMR and Coney founded in Wuhu that is degenerate but its super uncommon from what I have seen and I haven't been able to recreate it.

The reason why Skyworld and Wuhu are not legal basically comes down to APEX ****ing the entire Smash 4 community in the ass.

 

[Cap Gold]

The reason why Skyworld and Wuhu are not legal basically comes down to APEX ****ing the entire Smash 4 community in the ***.

Here's another two stages that should be banned warioware (if it isnt alredy ) and great cave offencive

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I see nothing wrong with Pokemon Stadium 2. If we can have Delfino Plaza legal with all its walk-offs & other bad sections for fighting, then we can have somewhat inconvenient transformations.

 

[Terotrous]

In a ruleset that still allows a ridiculous stage as Halberd as a CP it doesn't makes sense to ban PS2. I agree that PS2 should be a CP and I don't think 30s of electric rails its nothing compared to the many minutes Halberd have a platform really close to the top to kill in super early %s of a simple dthrow - uair mixup.

Halberd has like 5 seconds of aiming a cannon at you, and even then that's much less disruptive than ANY of PS2's transformations.

"game more complex>game less complex" is the essential argument of the OP. So long as adaption from players is a possibility it is preferable over banning a stage. Nevermind if anyone actually wants to play it. Nevermind if it changes what the game is in a way that no one likes. Basically nevermind the reasons we are playing this particular game in this particular fashion.

I pretty much agree with this, with the added caveat that adding in bad stage layouts that encourage camping and take away options actually likely makes the game less complex as well as making it less fun.

 

[Zephil]

Halberd has like 5 seconds of aiming a cannon at you, and even then that's much less disruptive than ANY of PS2's transformations.



I pretty much agree with this, with the added caveat that adding in bad stage layouts that encourage camping and take away options actually likely makes the game less complex as well as making it less fun.

yeah because floating in the air and sliding on ice is ten times worse than dying at 30% or from a random clawshot more dangerous in the game than in Brawl thanks to the increased hitstun...

I am sorry but from what I have seen in this thread, the reasons to ban PS2 are not justified if Halberd is still considered viable.

 

[Piford]

yeah because floating in the air and sliding on ice is ten times worse than dying at 30% or from a random clawshot more dangerous in the game than in Brawl thanks to the increased hitstun...

I am sorry but from what I have seen in this thread, the reasons to ban PS2 are not justified if Halberd is still considered viable.

There's no increased hitstun in Smash 4 compared to brawl, you just can't air dodge out of hitstun. Granted the hazards in halberd are laughably bad at mattering and aren't a reason to ban a stage, and neither are the transitions in PS2.

 

[warriorman222]

There's no increased hitstun in Smash 4 compared to brawl, you just can't air dodge out of hitstun. Granted the hazards in halberd are laughably bad at mattering and aren't a reason to ban a stage, and neither are the transitions in PS2.

Let me mention that since Smash 64, the hitstun has never been different. How you act out of it, has always changed however, and that's why it was so bad in Brawl. Even when I was 9 freaking years old and the game just came out, I abused this G&W and Snake.

 

[Zephil]

There's no increased hitstun in Smash 4 compared to brawl, you just can't air dodge out of hitstun. Granted the hazards in halberd are laughably bad at mattering and aren't a reason to ban a stage, and neither are the transitions in PS2.

ok I didn't know that, thanks for the info.

My proposal is not to ban Halberd but to use it as a example to defend the inclusion of PS2 as a CP option.

 

[Jaxas]

My proposal is not to ban Halberd but to use it as a example to defend the inclusion of PS2 as a CP option.

This is my main argument for the stage list here at my locals (along with "they're $1 weeklies, probably better to learn stages here just in case than get janked by lack of stage knowledge at a bigger tourney"); Halberd has direct, powerful interference. Granted you can reasonably avoid it every time (and this is why it should be legal), but if you can convince me a stage is more 'broken' than Halberd that's when I'll start actually considering banning it.

 

[Terotrous]

yeah because floating in the air and sliding on ice is ten times worse than dying at 30% or from a random clawshot more dangerous in the game than in Brawl thanks to the increased hitstun...

I am sorry but from what I have seen in this thread, the reasons to ban PS2 are not justified if Halberd is still considered viable.

If Halberd has to go I'm fine with it. The other travel stages are better anyway, rendering Halberd somewhat redundant.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If Halberd has to go I'm fine with it. The other travel stages are better anyway, rendering Halberd somewhat redundant.

Do you even play this game? Seriously, the idea that somehow other "travel" stages make halberd redundant is ridiculous. Halberd's niche is not "traveling stage with transformations" it's "has a tiny ceiling and predictable hazards".

 

[Terotrous]

Do you even play this game? Seriously, the idea that somehow other "travel" stages make halberd redundant is ridiculous. Halberd's niche is not "traveling stage with transformations" it's "has a tiny ceiling and predictable hazards".

Being sharkable is also part of its niche and it shares that with the other travel stages. Delfino also has the tiny tiny ceiling at certain points.

 

[popsofctown]

Being sharkable is also part of its niche and it shares that with the other travel stages. Delfino also has the tiny tiny ceiling at certain points.

Halberd's tiny ceiling is persistent, so you can't try to camp out the danger.

 

[T0MMY]

What's the value of a stage in Super Smash Bros? What purpose does it serve? Well, as far as I can see it, from the perspective of a competitive ruleset, the goal is simple: uphold the depth of the game.

How did you come to this perspective (depth of game)?
When speaking in terms of how far you can see, the competitive Smash Community will check if you are looking from atop the shoulders of giants.

 

[Prawn]

If PS2 replaced Halberd on stage lists I would not argue. It's not even the hazards or the ceiling that bothers me about halberd, it's the ****ing way the sides of the large ship transformation are made. Can't count how many times I've gotten hung up on those ledges.

 

[Judo777]

My biggest complaint with transitioning stages (except PS2 because it doesn't apply) is the blast zones change often VERY unfavorably for anyone in knock back during the switch. Like they literally shrink more during a transition than the actual blastzones of either of the complete transformations. Obviously no johns tho because you know they are coming.

Also the only sure thing about air phase in Brawl was that Olimar was DEFINITELY bad on air phase (why I cped it) lol

 

[Piford]

My biggest complaint with transitioning stages (except PS2 because it doesn't apply) is the blast zones change often VERY unfavorably for anyone in knock back during the switch. Like they literally shrink more during a transition than the actual blastzones of either of the complete transformations. Obviously no johns tho because you know they are coming.

Also the only sure thing about air phase in Brawl was that Olimar was DEFINITELY bad on air phase (why I cped it) lol

I'm pretty sure that only applied to Delfino, and not Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, and Town and City.

 

[Judo777]

I'm pretty sure that only applied to Delfino, and not Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, and Town and City.

Definitely occurs on castle siege. Not sure about the others.

 

[Piford]

Definitely occurs on castle siege. Not sure about the others.

I know the Ceiling is lower relative to the floor on Castle Siege, but I'm not sure if that's the floor rising, or the ceiling shrinking, and I'm not sure about the side blastzones though.

 

[Judo777]

I know the Ceiling is lower relative to the floor on Castle Siege, but I'm not sure if that's the floor rising, or the ceiling shrinking, and I'm not sure about the side blastzones though.

I have died standing still during a transformation on castle siege

 

[Piford]

I have died standing still during a transformation on castle siege

Oh that's nice to know, but why were you standing next to the blastzone anyways.

 

[Judo777]

Oh that's nice to know, but why were you standing next to the blastzone anyways.

I was hit there by an opponent during the gray transition screen (not phase 2). You know, where the whole stage is perfectly flat. Well the next phase was going to be phase 1, so he knew i would be offstage when the floor dropped, so he ran over to pressure me. My plan was to stay in shield until we dropped below his field of vision so i could begin getting back toward the middle. Unfortunately as the transformation was finishing, I was instantly killed by the blast zone shrinking. Trying to force the kill and reacting too slowly, he went for a dash grab winding up in the same place as me, but didn't die, because the transformation had finished and the blast zone was normal size again.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Also can somebody explains to me why Delfino its legal but not Skyworld and Wuhu Island?

Illuminati.

 

[Raijinken]

Excepting the handful of characters with meaningful moves that can be used from mid-stage to hit someone on the ledge, I don't see how the electric form is an issue. The only moves likely to hit on the edge with any realistic lethality are Sheik's sideB (most versions), a random stitchface, Luma, or perhaps a well-positioned tree from a Villager left totally idle enough to set it up on a transforming stage.

It's certainly ANNOYING, but so is Lylat and that's legal.

 

[Sonsa]

PS2 can be annoying but the pros outweigh the cons.
-Sure, people opt to camp on the ground transformation, people opt to camp or wait out the fire transformation in Melee too.
-The ice transformation doesn't cause tripping anymore so that's not really a problem, just adapt really.
-The flying transformation can lead to some interesting situations and combos, but nothing I've seen thats overpowered.
-And the electric transformation, while being the most annoying, isn't broken. Especially thanks to ledge trumping, you'll always have another shot whereas in Brawl, yeah, you might be trying to recover forever.

It's a great layout and it's awesome to see players adapt, everything's telegraphed way in advance so there's nothing happening that can really catch players off-guard. It's a shame many more games will go to time in comparison to others since many will want to camp, but many characters can adapt better than others and not every matchup will have a waiting game.

 

[dav3yb]

I've been reading this thread all morning, and i agree that the stage should be legal until otherwise proven degenerate.

I'll just add that, even though the Halberd hazards are well telegraphed, they can be used against your opponent as well, so having the beam target you isn't always a bad thing, especially if it can help you guarantee ledge guarding or kills by getting it into a position that the opponent is forced into. This i feel is a lot more egregious than, "the floaty transition is awkward, and the electric conveyor belts push me to the edge all the time."

 

[digiholic]

I think Halberd should be our measuring stick. Stages should be legal until proven strictly more degenerate than Halberd.

PS2, Wuhu, and Skyloft are all much less disruptive than Halberd, so they make the list.

 

[Judo777]

I think Halberd should be our measuring stick. Stages should be legal until proven strictly more degenerate than Halberd.

PS2, Wuhu, and Skyloft are all much less disruptive than Halberd, so they make the list.

I actually disagree, I find Wuhu WAY more disruptive than Halberd. The transformations are far more dissimilar that most other transitions stages. When I play on wuhu I feel like the stage keeps forcing me to stop what I'm doing every minute and wait for the stage to change.

 

[Hippieslayer]

After reading most of the messages against PS2, I'm basically hearing, "I dun like it."

Great! I notice this isn't under the critera for stage banning though! :D

A match on PS2 isn't going to break anything. If it does, enough with the theoretical nonsense and show a clip of it actually being abused.

Oh rly? I wrecked the arguments for PS2.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Halberd warrants banning more than PS2. It's a really, really good stage.

I like Halberd, ok? Obviously because I'm a Fox main and I like to abuse the lower ceiling. And honestly, the stage hazards (claw, laser, and Cannonball) are so easily avoided because of how telegraphed they are. People who say bull about the claw: learn to power-shield and listen to sound effects. The claw makes very noticeable sfx before it launches.

Nabbit, on the other hand, is an example of a hazard that is too strong because of how difficult he is to keep track of while fighting another opponent, along with the Icicles and Water spouts with urchins. Not to mention how insanely stupid the reward for the opponent is if Nabbit warps to the skies with you inside. Mario Bros Wii U is banned for a reason.

I love Pokemon Stadium 2, I'm a pretty vocal supporter of the stage around here and have been saying the same thing about it for a while (conveyors in Electric were slowed down from Brawl, by the way), but I like Halberd and we should keep Halberd.

http://smashboards.com/threads/pokemon-stadium-2-stage-research.386186/

Conveyors are slow enough that Jigglypuff can walk in place when facing opposite the direction of motion.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can I just butt in and say I get a case of the warm fuzzies whenever someone cites my stage threads?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think another thing we should mention when having legal stages is to look at the stage list and take a look at what they bring.

As a hypothetical, Delfino, Skyloft, and Wuhu are all travelling stages. Is it really necessary to have multiple of these stages legal? If there were three bans, for example, all three of them would be used by the player whom doesn't want to go to those, leaving themselves open to other possible picks when they could've just banned Delfino and their other non-favourable with the current stage list.

In other words, a legal stage should not only be playable, but it should also bring something new to the table.

Btw, what would you say to disprove me saying that Delfino already serves the same purpose of Skyloft and Wuhu? What would you refer to if someone else said this to convince them they differentiated? What would you say about PS2 if a similar scenario came up, comparing it to the current legal stages to say how it's unique and deserves a spot?

(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily mean what I post here, just trying to get some debate going to see what others have to say)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Btw, what would you say to disprove me saying that Delfino already serves the same purpose of Skyloft and Wuhu? What would you refer to if someone else said this to convince them they differentiated?

The transformations on all three of them differ wildly. Skyloft has no water segments; Wuhu has very few water segments. Delfino is uniquely suited to killing off the top with the tiny roof on certain segments. Wuhu is fairly large; Delfino is not. Each stage caters to different character types for different reasons and lumping them all together simply because they travel is ludicrous. Another obvious example, Skyloft is clearly more oriented towards aerial combat than Delfino is.

What would you say about PS2 if a similar scenario came up, comparing it to the current legal stages to say how it's unique and deserves a spot?

No other stage demands that the players adapt on the fly to changes in physics and movement in the same way. It offers unique and interesting counterpick opportunities for characters who are able to play around its hazards.

Also, I disagree with your premise - stages should be considered automatically legal until proven broken or random. Anything else is really scrub logic.