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Why should Zelda one-shots and Mario spin-off characters be playable in Smash?

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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My point was that Daisy is primarily known for being in spin-offs, like Waluigi. Both are recognizable to casual audiences, which is why they make an equal amount of sense to include.
Also, being in a mobile game doesn't exactly come with the "prestige" that OP argued most mainline Mario characters have. I don't think it makes a huge difference.
It doesn't really change that she's officially in two mainline games as a notable appearance. Which just means that argument is a bad point in itself.

That doesn't mean your other argument, that she's primarily known for the spin-offs, is a bad point either.

She's a mainline character who has had two mainline appearances, but is far more known(it helps it's where she got an actual personality) for the spin-offs. In addition, her being in a mainline game isn't even why she's in Smash itself. Popularity plus being an easy Echo due to being identical to Peach in every game they're both in bar things like a few animations/personality(but their abilities are the same). She pretty much was a palette swap of Peach from the start, but didn't really branch off in abilities or games in the same way as Luigi did from Mario.
 

Jondolio

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Suddenly, this gets more interesting the more I actually think about it. Particularly on Zelda's stance, most of us have a pretty daunted habit of bailing when new Zelda characters supposedly lose relevancy, way too soon. Now I think if we actually rallied behind these characters, one may actually get in. Some characters will take longer to get in than others. Impa actually helps this case. Zelda fans may come off as not knowing what they actually want anymore to Sakurai, one of the most sensible outcomes I can totally feel.

The key to supporting is, you HAVE to keep going, even when all hope seems lose. Just keep pushing through the tunnel. You have to want something to get it. Otherwise, it will immediately slip away.
You might be onto something. The problem with that, however, is that Zelda fans have wildly differing tastes as to which characters should get in, and there isn't really one character that would make everyone happy. For example, to me it seems that Skull Kid has the most vocal fanbase, but as a casual Zelda fan, I can't really get behind the idea of him being a fighter. Then again, I'm kind of neutral when it comes to adding more Zelda characters.
It doesn't really change that she's officially in two mainline games as a notable appearance. Which just means that argument is a bad point in itself.

That doesn't mean your other argument, that she's primarily known for the spin-offs, is a bad point either.

She's a mainline character who has had two mainline appearances, but is far more known(it helps it's where she got an actual personality) for the spin-offs. In addition, her being in a mainline game isn't even why she's in Smash itself. Popularity plus being an easy Echo due to being identical to Peach in every game they're both in bar things like a few animations/personality(but their abilities are the same). She pretty much was a palette swap of Peach from the start, but didn't really branch off in abilities or games in the same way as Luigi did from Mario.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're interpreting my arguments as being against Daisy being in. I'm not, I just think the fact that she's in is a pretty big blow to OP's point, and that characters like Waluigi could make it in.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're interpreting my arguments as being against Daisy being in. I'm not, I just think the fact that she's in is a pretty big blow to OP's point, and that characters like Waluigi could make it in.
I'm saying that trying to downplay the mainline appearance just cause it's a "mobile game" is pretty clearly a bad point. That doesn't matter. Nintendo decides what are mainline appearances, and the only thing that's a minor appearance is stuff like a costume. Her only two major appearances have her playable(Super Mario Run) or a main character to rescue(Land). Not saying these are the best ever. They sure as hell aren't. But they're still important roles in the game and shouldn't be downplayed.

I agree with you on why the spin-off games are more important to her being in too. One's more important to her character(mainline games), while the other is clearly why she's in(spin-offs). I hope that explains what I mean better.
 

UserKev

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You might be onto something. The problem with that, however, is that Zelda fans have wildly differing tastes as to which characters should get in, and there isn't really one character that would make everyone happy. For example, to me it seems that Skull Kid has the most vocal fanbase, but as a casual Zelda fan, I can't really get behind the idea of him being a fighter. Then again, I'm kind of neutral when it comes to adding more Zelda characters.
I use to support Skull Kid, he's potentially overrated to me now tho. We all should have rallied behind Ghirahim.
 

Oracle Link

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You might be onto something. The problem with that, however, is that Zelda fans have wildly differing tastes as to which characters should get in, and there isn't really one character that would make everyone happy. For example, to me it seems that Skull Kid has the most vocal fanbase, but as a casual Zelda fan, I can't really get behind the idea of him being a fighter. Then again, I'm kind of neutral when it comes to adding more Zelda characters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're interpreting my arguments as being against Daisy being in. I'm not, I just think the fact that she's in is a pretty big blow to OP's point, and that characters like Waluigi could make it in.
What do you mean by casual? most Casual Zelda fans only played the 3d Zeldas! or only the switch games!
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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What do you mean by casual? most Casual Zelda fans only played the 3d Zeldas! or only the switch games!
Eh, that's cause a lot of people no longer play games or have passed away. Every era has tons of players.

Though I do agree they're way easier to access.
 

scoobymcsnack

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This is why. Spin-off/one-shot characters can provide fun movesets, as well as be fan favorites. Spin-off characters and one-shot characters can be just as popular and be fan favorites as other characters. Arbitrarily deciding that these characters are not "worthy" to be in Smash is silly.

That's like if we had a Pokémon character based around Mystery Dungeon or Pokkén Tournament. Who wants either of those?
Me! I think PMD's Grovyle would be an awesome addition.
 

Lenidem

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Nintendo themselves.

https://mario.nintendo.com/history/ There was a better version of the site, but it lists all the mainline games on here. You just need to physically scroll through them. Super Mario Maker(as well as 2) is literally just all the mainline games anyway, but with you building the game. That's not a surprise. Super Mario Run is odd, but being a straight platformer, it's not as odd as it has to be. Them including remakes in it is more awkward than those.

The video itself also helps make it clear.


Mario Kart Tour is not listed among the site I linked, if it helps.
Thank you for the source. But I really doubt we should take this website seriously: this list is totally arbitrary. They put 3D World + Bowser Fury has a main title, but not The Lost Levels? Super Mario 3D All-Stars is in, but not the first All-Stars? That makes no sense.
 
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Koopaul

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A lot of people in this thread conflate "spin-off" with "non-canon"

Something can be a spin-off and still be canon.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Thank you for the source. But I really doubt we should take this website seriously: this list is totally arbitrary. They put 3D World + Bowser Fury has a main title, but not The Lost Levels? Super Mario 3D All-Stars is in, but not the first All-Stars? That makes no sense.
There's probably some reasons for that;

The Lost Levels isn't the normal Super Mario Bros. 2. The original version was actually intended as 2(which is known as 2 USA as well). Basically, Doki Doki Panic was actually a Mario game from the start. The Lost Levels was probably meant to be a quick side game(essentially a romhack in practice, due to not adding much new besides items, being a very fast sequel) and wasn't planned to be the "normal 2nd game" in the series.

That said, if they don't consider it the proper 2nd game anyway, obviously the original All-Stars, which included it, wouldn't count either. They go hand in hand in that case. The only reason 3D All-Stars counts is because it has 3 games they consider mainline. If they don't consider Lost Levels mainline(for the record, I agree it should be), then regular All-Stars can't be mainline if it includes it. That at least makes sense.

I agree entirely this feels arbitrary too. Despite that, that's what their official statement is. It's arbitrary, but it's also theirs to decide either way. I think it's dumb to not include all the core platformers(that aren't clear spin-offs like Yoshi obviously is) as is. I only have a theory of why, which is up above. Maybe there's more to it than we know? I can't find anything explaining why, though. Though it's worth noting that Miyamoto wasn't a fan of it since it's closer to an updated version of Mario Bros. 1 than a true sequel(as well as super difficulty), so it's possible they don't view it as a completely new game or something. Which doesn't make it any less arbitrary to not list it, of course.
 

Lenidem

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There's probably some reasons for that;

The Lost Levels isn't the normal Super Mario Bros. 2. The original version was actually intended as 2(which is known as 2 USA as well). Basically, Doki Doki Panic was actually a Mario game from the start. The Lost Levels was probably meant to be a quick side game(essentially a romhack in practice, due to not adding much new besides items, being a very fast sequel) and wasn't planned to be the "normal 2nd game" in the series.
What do you mean, "Doki Doki Panic was actually a Mario game from the start"? I always heard the opposite: that is was rebranded as a Mario game when it reached the USA.

That said, if they don't consider it the proper 2nd game anyway, obviously the original All-Stars, which included it, wouldn't count either. They go hand in hand in that case. The only reason 3D All-Stars counts is because it has 3 games they consider mainline. If they don't consider Lost Levels mainline(for the record, I agree it should be), then regular All-Stars can't be mainline if it includes it. That at least makes sense.
That makes sense, indeed.

Despite that, that's what their official statement is. It's arbitrary, but it's also theirs to decide either way.
It's "official", sure, but does that means than it is "important" or "serious"? How much thought was put into this, and by whom? From my point of view, this looks like an add, no more no less. Besides, the page itself never mentions the words "main", "mainline" or "canon": the video just presents "some of Mario’s greatest hits" and the article talks about "Mario’s many adventures", which is a broad term: if Mario Maker is an "adventure", then shouldn't the Mario Party and most of the Tennis and Golf be considered as such? Some of them have stories just as "adventurous" as the Mario Maker's, I think. It doesn't say anything about "plateformers" either.

I also wonder why New Super Mario Bros. Deluxe is there, but not Mario 64 DS. My guess is: it's for marketing purpose. There is no point for Nintendo to promote an old DS remake, but a Switch remake still available at the moment? Yeah, let's put it on the website and present it like it's important.
 
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Oracle Link

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Mario lost levels is Mario 2 usa just doesnt include is because Usa!
I mean the mario LL was probably perfect for the Japanese and "super mario bros 2" is called super Mario bros Usa Over there!
 

fogbadge

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remind me, why are we discussing SMB2, a very important game as any toad fan will tell you, in a zelda thread?
 

fogbadge

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There is no such thing as a main series Mario game. There are Mario platformers, but not a Mario main series. Platformers just so happen to be Mario's roots, not his main outlet.
that’s incredible subjective. Especially as Nintendo themselves have no definition. I mean if you’re going to argue there are no spin-offs then you’re gonna render half this thread poin

Because we're discussing the concept of mainline and spin-off, aka the foundations of this thread.
Surely the foundation of the thread is discussing the viability of characters who’ve appeared in one Zelda game or nearly exclusively in Mario spin-offs, being playable in smash
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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What do you mean, "Doki Doki Panic was actually a Mario game from the start"? I always heard the opposite: that is was rebranded as a Mario game when it reached the USA.
Basically they first made a Super Mario game(which was very different), and it became Doki Doki Panic. Then, later on, when it was brought to the US, it was effectively reverted back to being a Super Mario game.

For some reason I can't find the proper source anymore, though. That said, I'll leave off the conversation part since I can't legitimately source it. I heard the original as you did too.

It's "official", sure, but does that means than it is "important" or "serious"? How much thought was put into this, and by whom? From my point of view, this looks like an add, no more no less. Besides, the page itself never mentions the words "main", "mainline" or "canon": the video just presents "some of Mario’s greatest hits" and the article talks about "Mario’s many adventures", which is a broad term: if Mario Maker is an "adventure", then shouldn't the Mario Party and most of the Tennis and Golf be considered as such? Some of them have stories just as "adventurous" as the Mario Maker's, I think. It doesn't say anything about "plateformers" either.

I also wonder why New Super Mario Bros. Deluxe is there, but not Mario 64 DS. My guess is: it's for marketing purpose. There is no point for Nintendo to promote an old DS remake, but a Switch remake still available at the moment? Yeah, let's put it on the website and present it like it's important.
The actual original version of the website listed it as "these are the mainline games" and listed all the current ones, bar ones not released yet(Bowser's Fury and Super Mario 3D All-Stars at least, maybe some others). They changed the website entirely from the old design. My guess is they realized it was a poor way to put it, and that they just consider these "important enough" or something like that.

I completely agree with you, that said. It's arbitrary, regardless of being official. There's no reason not to include both versions of Super Mario Bros. 2 in general. They're both clearly core games, like the rest of the platformers. It makes sense not to list the later Wario games, just as well. The only one that could be listed is Super Mario Land II, of course.

For the most part, it's clear they don't take it that seriously either. Mario Kart is practically a core series for them too, essentially being hyper popular and a place to return tons of characters. It's the only series they dared to make into a Gacha too. And get another full Arcade version. It's clearly pretty special in some ways. I mean, still a spin-off, but yeah.

If it makes you feel better, Pokemon is odd with it too. The Let's Go series of games are considered mainline... along with the regular series. Despite being beyond different outside of just being another re-telling of Gen 1. Notably the gameplay is massively changed up from the norm with how catching even works, making it much closer to a spin-off. They never did anything besides updating mechanics at most otherwise in the mainline Pokemon games. Obviously balance changes too, but they never outright changed any core mechanics till now. Then again, the remakes are mainline and their own timeline too, so there's basically 3 different timelines that are all mainline. Confusing isn't it? Companies are just weird on what they consider mainline. And don't get me started on what counts as canon or not. D:
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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marketability?
It's on NES Online. Marketability isn't really an issue. It's available. So is Super Mario All-Stars.

Really, it would make sense if they consider only one as "the true version of 2" and ignore the other. Nintendo is really odd like that anyway. It's arbitrary and rather ridiculous anyway, but they do pull that kind of stuff, so.
 

fogbadge

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It's on NES Online. Marketability isn't really an issue. It's available. So is Super Mario All-Stars.

Really, it would make sense if they consider only one as "the true version of 2" and ignore the other. Nintendo is really odd like that anyway. It's arbitrary and rather ridiculous anyway, but they do pull that kind of stuff, so.
just a thought
 

Baysha

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Personally I think that Legend of Zelda revolves around it's one shots like Fire Emblem does. Only with the fact the 3 main characters stay the same. However, with the fact that Zelda revolves heavily on it's world and the people in it, they're plenty important to their original games. Would you say FE was focusing too much on one shots if all of the protagonists were different incarnations of Marth?
 

Quillion

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Personally I think that Legend of Zelda revolves around it's one shots like Fire Emblem does. Only with the fact the 3 main characters stay the same. However, with the fact that Zelda revolves heavily on it's world and the people in it, they're plenty important to their original games. Would you say FE was focusing too much on one shots if all of the protagonists were different incarnations of Marth?
Are you implying that each Link and Zelda should be treated as a different person than the last?
 

Baysha

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Are you implying that each Link and Zelda should be treated as a different person than the last?
No. I'm just saying that Zelda revolves around it's one shots almost to the extent that FE does.
 

Quillion

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No. I'm just saying that Zelda revolves around it's one shots almost to the extent that FE does.
That's like saying Saria, Darunia, and Ruto are as important to OoT as Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector are to FE7. Can you argue that this is true?
 

Baysha

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That's like saying Saria, Darunia, and Ruto are as important to OoT as Eliwood, Lyn, and Hector are to FE7. Can you argue that this is true?
No but characters like Midna, Skull Kid, Ghiraham, and the Champions are very important to their games. They just aren't the main characters. A big part of Zelda is the rotating supporting characters while FE has rotating entire casts.
 

Oracle Link

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Now that i think about this we really need dedicated Mario and zelda Smash games i mean even if we get like 10 zelda chars and 6 mario ones there is still so much wasted potential in less important pics! And by the way we also need a kirby fighterz with all dreamfriends and helpers!
 
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