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Why should I believe in God?

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Crimson King

I am become death
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After reading a few select members futile complaints in the "How can anyone believe in God" topic, I decided to go a different route with it. I will explain why I have become atheist. It's a long and deeply personal experience, which I will not post in its entirety.

For now, this is a place holder because I have to go eat, and I want to finish the last two episodes of Lost: Season 1. I posted this for myself to actually force me to post this. I feel it's necessary to understand why I am so vehemently opposed to religion.

Starting off now, this is NOT a debate thread. Anyone actually arguing a particular point will be warned severely and possibly removed from the Debate Hall. Instead, this is an open discussion meant for anyone, theist, atheist, or agnostic, to post their personal accounts on how they came to their beliefs, and come to an understand of each other.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
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Joined
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Messages
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Yeah, I am double posting, but it's my room.

To begin, as I said, this is not the entire, 21 year experience that brought me from faithful to faithless. This is my story in massive microcosm. I do plan to expand upon it later, but only for those interested. The longer version will be a bit more polished as this is my first telling, ever, of this story. Ignore any spelling errors or random tangents if possible. Without further ado:

"From Theist to Atheist: My Journey of Damnation"

I can pretty much remember when my faith was first questioned. Fifth grade, we were in science class, and for the first time in my life, someone explained the biblical stories were not literal accounts, but metaphorical stories. This was a devastating day for me. This is what I learned in Catholic School.

Having attended Catholic school from Kindergarten to 12th grade, I was bombarded by religious rants, dogmas, scripture, and the like. I was raised Catholic in a town of 15,000 people where the domination is Catholic, probably 95% of the town is baptized Catholic. I went to church every Sunday, and in 4th or 5th grade, when I was allowed to Altar Serve, I was ecstatic. Altar Serving led to my second faltering in faith, but I am getting a head of myself. In fourth grade, I had a close friend die. At the funeral, I wasn't sad. I knew in my heart that what I was taught all along was correct and that since he was a good person, he'd be in Heaven where there is no pain. I felt comfortable in this. A year later, when the Adam and Eve story was explained to be a metaphor, I began to doubt if there was even a Heaven. For fifth and sixth grade, I didn't know whether I was lied to by my parents and church or that teacher. In sixth grade, I decided it was the teacher, and I had my first, but certainly not last, night of insomnia. I begged God to help me sleep. He cured people with cancer, parted a sea, and flooded the Earth but couldn't help me sleep? Then, that night, I began to question whether or not he flooded the Earth and parted the sea and whether or not he could cure people. I asked my parents with these doubts, and they never really gave me an answer, which I am more thankful for because had they revealed they didn't know or didn't believe, it'd have been detrimental. Around this time, I started taking allergy pills and sleep aids to fight my insomnia. Because when you cannot sleep for a week, at the age of 11, something is very wrong. I told no one about it, because I took as a punishment from God for doubting my faith. After this period, I returned to religion much more fervent. I saw science as the ultimate evil and enemy. Then, I met a priest who changed my views on everything.

In 7th grade, I became the "Altar Server" captain, which meant for school masses, I picked who would be an altar server. The job was great because whomever served, the hour in church would fly by. The school/church which I attended, could never hold a priest very long. My last year at the school, it only ran from Kindergarten to 7th with the High school running from 8th - 12th, had two new priests, one who was old and antiquated and one who was progressive. The older priest, whom I will call Father Ryan, was a staunch Catholic who would spend the hour before Mass talking about scripture, which I was becoming interested in. I served a lot of mass with Father Ryan, something like 4 masses in 48 hours, so I held a lot of respect for him. Sadly, he was an aging man and let his power and status as pastor go to his head, but I will get into that a bit later. The younger, progressive priest, named here as Father Mike, was a guitar playing, all-around fun guy. I loved serving with him because he actually, at least to me, seemed to care about whatever I had to talk about. He was also the first priest to suggestion the priesthood to me. I responded that I wanted to have kids some day and have a job, and he responded, "that's your will, but is it God's?" Boom... shaking of faith number two.

I became quite confused from talking with him about the Priesthood. The vocation basically seemed like a death sentence to anyone I even mentioned it to, and personally, I wasn't interested, but then I started to pray as Father Mike suggested. To show my level of devoutness at the time, I'd fast for three days before Easter from 5th - 7th grade and when I'd get hungry, I'd pray. I did all this in private, and I think no one really knew how into religion I really was. I remained altar serving always thinking of the priesthood. The thought stayed with me when I finally finished elementary school and went to high school, at this time, Father Ryan was going completely crazy, going as far as telling a person with a crying baby to take it outside in the middle of his sermon while it was raining. We left that church and started attending another church. Now, to note, at every mass I attended with my parents, my mom would make my dad and I sit as close as possible. Because of this, the priests would recognize us. At the new church, I chose not to altar serve, so I never got very close to the priest, but we talked occasionally. In Catholic High School, I met my first atheist. He was a logical and cool enough guy who was never brought up in religion, and thus, despised it's constricting nature. I hated him on the spot. I tried to argue with him, but he kept raising the same questions I had. On top of this, I had a very inept, though extremely attractive religion teacher. He blindness in faith made me even more unsure what was and what wasn't the right way to think. Eventually, growing tired of her ignorance, I wanted to disassociate with her completely, and turned towards non-denominational Christianity. My reasoning at the time was if a person vested to educate me on Catholic idiocy, how could I be expected to accept it. Around this time, I started to really follow anti-state websites and eventually turned anarchist, which attracted a fellowship of about three or four students who actually were borderline militant with my views. They even bought into my religious beliefs, which I dubbed "Ericist Christianity." I realized I was rather influential with them and quickly relinquished my power from them. They were upset for a while. I remained with my views until 9/11/2001, which I completely turned brutally Patriotic, sickenly Xenophobic, and horribly Catholic. In church, I loved the hate filled rants against Islam, all of Islam, and the vow that Christ would destroy it. I ate it up. After the fervor for 9/11 wore down, I began to have doubts once again. They stayed with me until I graduated from High School. No longer having the religious daily force feed, I went to church by myself and prayed. I could not focus. I realized it had been a while since I actually prayed at meant it. Then, I took this as a sign that I shouldn't pray. After a while of that, I went to church as my final time there. I begged God to give me some type of sign that I was wanted. Father Ryan walked up to the altar, beginning another one of his pre-mass rants, and stated "If you feel nothing from this gospel, then you do not belong here." Huh, a prayer was actually answered.

I was ready. I had the missilette in hand to follow along, but being in the back of the church, I had to listen via speaker. Before the gospel even started, I hear this ear splitting whistle from the speaker, then it eventually cut out completely, no one around me really reacted, but I took this as my sign - I wasn't to hear the gospel. I left Church for the last time. After that, I practiced deism for a while because I considered the bible just a collection of fallacies, anecdotal evidence, and untruths used to control people for political purposes. As I was now free to question, I learned how Christianity assimilated many other popular religions into itself to make it even more popular.

In the end, I was left completely and totally unbelieving in a God that I almost committed my life to serving. In Catholic school, when someone would die, we'd be lectured on why bad things happen to good people. "It's God's will." But we were never lectured on why good things happen to bad people. We were never explained why a child is given a long grueling death by cancer, but a pedophile can go to Thailand for 12 years and have a smorgasborg of children. We were taught about why a man who loved everyone kindly will get hit by car, but not explained why the drunk driver who did it will get out on a technicality. When I contemplated this, it was crystal clear - because we do it to ourselves. Every pain, hardship, triumph, victory, anything we have achieved on our own. With that line of thought, I could not commit myself to a god. Now, I live to make myself and my friends happy. So far it works pretty well.
 

MojoMan

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Well, that's a very sad and interesting story. I'm not sure if I believe in god or not. I'm pretty sure I do, even though I was not raised in a religious home at all.I don't worship god, I just believe in God. I think I believe in him/her/our almighty creator because I need something to believe in. If no one can give a good explanation for what happened before the universe was created, what do you believe happened? The reason why I think that the God lets the world exist in turmoil is because we got ourselves into it, maybe we should get ourselves out. And I hope that by saying this I'm not coming off as a religion fanatic, because I'm really not. I think many people are getting confused between "believing" in god, and "worshiping" god (not you in particular, Crimson King). And on a side note, I've been wondering, what is your avatar a picture of? And if you don't believe in god/religion, etc., why is the title under your name "the messiah", with all due respect?
 

SkylerOcon

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That's usually what I hear about people turning from Christian to Atheist. They were super into it and then they came to realize that it was just stupid because they had heard it so much and had more reason to reflect upon it.
 

blazedaces

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philly, PA, aim: blazedaces, msg me and we'll play
That's usually what I hear about people turning from Christian to Atheist. They were super into it and then they came to realize that it was just stupid because they had heard it so much and had more reason to reflect upon it.
My story isn't very long, but it's very similar in this regard.

I'm jewish and around the time nearing my bar-mitzvah (13 years old for those who don't know) I became extremely religious. I was putting tfilin (a certain morning prayer ritual involving wrapping your hand and head and saying certain lines) on every morning. After my bar-mitzvah I went to Israel and prayed at the western wall (the most holy place in Israel for jews, the wall closest to THE Temple in ancient Israel that no longer stands). I started eating kosher "to the law" so to speak. I was going to temple every friday and saturday evening.

I don't know exactly when I started doubting things, but it was like a stack of dominoes after that. I do know what the subject was about though, and it was about degrees, degrees of belief if you will.

Let me try to explain by talking about what I said above about being kosher "to the law". You see, being kosher "to the law" means only eating at kosher restaurants, only eating "Glatt" kosher food, and having a separate set of dishes, silverware, and dishwasher for meat and dairy products. But, nearly everyone that doesn't do all of that has their own definition of what is and isn't kosher. Some people just don't eat meat and dairy products together. You can imagine all the degrees yourself.

Here's another example: resting on saturday (or shabesh as said in hebrew). It means "to the law" not using any electricity or doing work-related things on saturday which include writing or studying. Now, this one really bothers me. You see, and I'll now point this out although it was true also about the kosher things, obviously electricity wasn't around when the torah and all it's laws were written, so who made up the concept of resting on saturday for the modern day an age? Rabbi's. Why is walking less work than driving a car?

It gets more and more silly the more you know about the "beast" that is dogmatic judaism. On saturday, you're not allowed to "use" anything that uses electricity, but for some reason they have deemed it ok so long as it either a) was turned on friday (the day before) or b) someone else did it. There are "shabbas" elevators that stop at every floor! I have heard of religious people who pay others to follow them, turning on and off lights, and using electricity "for them".

One of the moments I now recall (after writing that last bit) that really bothered me was while I was going through my very religious phase on some saturday I turned off the lights. I was at a hotel for my father's boss's son's bar-mitzvah so of course, they rented a hotel out so everyone could drive there on friday to be there on saturday. One of the kids there saw me turn off the light and looked at me like I was the devil. I tried to explain to him that I was making sure to not be "using" electricity on saturday, but it was useless. My parents were not this religious so they had never taught me these "rules" on when "using" electricity is "actually using" electricity.

I could go on and on about how much I despise orthodox jewish dogma these days, but I think that's enough for now...

The more I doubted things "to the law" and the more I thought about how many degrees there were to belief in this religion, the more I doubted it as a whole. There was no reason to believe in any of it. Everything was questionable and I tend to question everything.

I was an atheist for quite some time, but as of now I think if I had to label myself I would say I am a deist. I would say the only thing I believe in that somewhat contradicts scientific theory is that I believe there is a method to the madness, so to speak. I can't really expand upon that, but I also don't care very much. There are much more important things in life than what you believe in. Like what you do with your life.

By the way, today I'm probably one of the most honest people I know (I like being honest and I hate lying), I continue to do community service (and I did also through my temple till I left for college), and I think of my principles as rather virtuous.
 

Aesir

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Well I'm half Greek, father-side so naturally I was going to be a Christian, Baptized Greek Orthodox at a very young age. (which is something that's absolutely ******** if you ask me.) However despite being Greek Orthodox on paper, my mom raised me with a Catholic mentality she was raised Catholic so that might have been why. Most of my childhood was a fearful belief in God. I never once questioned it during my childhood when I kind of just accepted it, and thought yeah it makes sense.

Eventually my mom fell for the trap of Jehovah's Witnesses and frequently started bible studying with them, Naturally I was forced into it as well. From 4th grade to about 9th grade this was more a less my religion. However when 10th grade rolled around I'm not exactly sure what sparked my skepticism but something about God wasn't exactly sticking with me. at the age of 17 I completely dropped the JW faith as to me it was just a cult that warped the word of the bible and instead stuck to the rooted ideals my mom had instilled on me at the young age, sure it was a faith of fear but it's something that I felt was correct.

However this didn't last very long at the age of 18 I was slowly drifting into agnosticism as and I stayed like this for 2 years I felt content being an agnostic because I didn't want to make any claims I didn't know, whether there was a god or not, comfort in sitting on the fence you could say. However 3 months before my 21st birthday I began looking into my beliefs a bit more and I came to realize over my years of fence sitting I began to slowly adopt a strong atheistic mentality. I began looking at the world and actually begging the question does god really exist? I read many works for Atheists and compared them from many works of theists. needless to say the theists didn't make a strong case for me.

Anyway to not deviate from the topic, as I know if I continue it might sound more like an arguing then an explanation. Long story short, I became an Strong Atheist and have been. On a side note I always had this little feeling in the back of my mind that all of this was a lie anyway so maybe that played a roll aswell?
 

AltF4

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Good story, CK. Enjoyable read.

I guess I'm active enough in the religion threads for this to be of relevance! Some may find my story interesting, too. I believe I may have mentioned some of this in a previous thread somewhere, but I'll try to provide a more accurate account this time. I'm not much of a writer, so I'm not used to doing this sort of thing. It's kind of fun. Anywho, let's begin...


I grew up in a predominately Catholic town, went to a private Catholic school, and had a practicing Catholic family. Now, another thing you should know about me is that I'm clinically left-brained. Even as a small child. The best example of this that I can give is that I've never been afraid of the dark. Normal people are afraid of the dark because it is the embodiment of "fear of the unknown". But why would I be afriad of the unknown? It seemed absurd to me that some kind of monster would be waiting under my bead, I had no reason to think that there would be.

But another thing you should know about me is that I'm reliably gullible, or at least used to be! I once even fell for that bit when someone says "Gullible isn't a word!" Yea, give me a break, I was little. So, I was in a funny position as a child as you can imagine.

In Catholic school, they teach religion alongside every other class. It's just another subject, no different than math or science. In fact, it was taught more along the lines of a history class.

There were two distinct moments that I can pinpoint that shook my belief in catholocism. The first came when I was in about 1st grade. I was a Boy Scout, (technically a cub scout, but whatever) and we were having a Christmas party. Now, my parents never tried to make me believe in Santa Claus. There wasn't ever a good reason, I guess. We had presents and everything you know. But my parents just never tried to tell us that Santa did it all.

So for the Christmas party, my dad was going to dress up and be Santa. Have everyone sit on his lap, the whole nine yards. Anyway, right before the party, he came to me and told me "Dan, you can't tell any of the other kids that I'm dressed as Santa. They don't know that Santa isn't real."

I didn't tell anyone, but the entire time at the party it was surreal. I had a distinctive yet odd feeling of wisdom about me. I felt like I was the only one there who knew the truth. There are people in the world who actually believe whole-heartedly in something as absurd as Santa. It made me want to know what else I could know that others don't.

The second event was the nail in the proverbial coffin. I was in fourth grade at this time, and my brother was in 6th. We both went to the same school. After about halfway into the school year, my brother started to come back from school crying. He said that the nuns made fun of him, and hit him.

I knew very well that the nuns would hit kids. Usually with yard sticks, and usually on the hands, but not always. I was always a pretty good student, so I would only rarely get hit. But my brother was not so fortunate. He had a way of acting up and being bratty, so my parents just sort of assumed that whatever he got he probably deserved, and was likely exaggerating the rest.

But the didn't the incidents didn't stop. My brother just kept coming home crying and saying the same things. So one morning, my dad decided to take off from work and make an impromptu visit to school to talk with the nun that was his teacher. My dad goes into the school, looks in through the classroom window, and sees the nun beating my brother with a yard stick. He's standing in front of the class crying being hit over and over while being mocked and ridiculed by the nun. (and the other kids)

My dad walks int he room, grabs my brother by the arm, gives the nun a very nasty look, and walks out. He then went over to the room I was in, told me to get up and come with him, and we walked right out as well. Neither my parents nor myself have been in a church since.

After having learned the full story afterward, and after attending public school for a the remainder of the school year, it shook my perception of the catholic church. (And by association, all organized religion) I quickly learned just how much of what was taught to me were lies. I never forgave the church. From that point until about high school, you could have aptly called me "non-religious". I just lived and played and didn't even give it thought. Only about in high school did I actively start to believe that there wasn't a god. So today you could accurately call me a "strong atheist".

There you have it! My life's story. I hope you enjoyed it, I sure enjoyed writing it!
 

MojoMan

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Wow... you know, I'm not sure if I completely clarified this, but I believe in God not as my ruler, but just as a being that created me, and that I should respect. I do not worship God, just respect God
 

Eor

Banned via Warnings
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To be honest, Snex and Bumble Bee Tuna made me atheist. I started going here in the sixth grade and read all those threads about religion, back when they debated...i forgot his name, some ultra religious guy whose avatar was Falco shooting a blaster. I read the sites and their arguments for the next year, and I kept of seeing theists incapable of holding ground. I started to doubt, but I still had faith. It kept on going until around the ninth grade, where I was really in doubt. It took me all of Sophomore year for me to finally let go of it and be an atheist.

Flash forward to now, I wouldn't call myself an atheist. Agnostic doesn't do it either. I'm reading into a lot of eastern religions, predominantly Buddhism and Jainism, but I'm not yet convinced. Who knows. I just posted this because I thought Snex and BBT (if he didn't die in that terrible car accident) might find it interesting. Jerks.
 

Cubemario

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Feb 6, 2008
Messages
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My life could be best described as being rejected. I was bullied for years at school and at home (by my brother). I was very often depressed and very often sick. I got very interested in the bible and god for the first time when I was 10 years old or so. I then had a supernatural experience after I started reading the bible. It wasn't a good one either. I saw what looked a lot like a great horned owl, but with a very long tail. It was plain as day, sunshine and everything and it was inside my grandmothers house (I lived next door to her as the time). By the way I wasn't on anything either that would cause me to 'see things'. So yeah, the 'bird' which couldn't possibly exist or get into my grandma's house just walked up next to me. So I ran away from it and checked to see if it was still there, it was, just staring at me. So I was frozen in fear, the 'thing' walked away. I followed it for some reason and it disappeared into another room.

I went back to my house, clearly upset from that experience. Then I was just calming down and leaning in front of a wall. Then another impossible thing happened. I saw myself just standing there in front of me, same clothes, same everything. The only thing is, there wasn't any mirror or reflective surface and things just don't appear in front of you. Then I had many nightmares about it for months. I pulled away from god and the bible. Looking back on it, i'm convinced that what I saw was supernatural and was something of demonic origin.

One would rationalize that I was on something, but I wasn't on any drugs that would cause a hallucination. It was also just a one time thing and I have no history of mental illness in the family Besides even if I was mentally ill, I would continue to see things, which I haven't.

I eventually moved on and got into a very degrading lifestyle to cope with my bad life. I don't like going into details (especially at risk of disgusting people), but it was all consuming and some pretty dark stuff.

My sister also got a boyfriend, who lived with us for a while and he was nice but he eventually turned out to be a dishonest person. Then my sister finally got a really nice boyfriend, he came from a hard life and he was a seemingly honest guy. He was a great guy to be around and he ended up living with us for a while. Then he went totally nuts. He was starting to lie, constantly, even about the minute things (aka pathological liar). There was also a point where a group of people came to our house at night and smashed my dad's rear view mirror and vandalized our house. Which turned out to be his fault.

Then my sister's boyfriend was doing drugs behind our back and stealing stuff from our house and selling it for drug money. He then left our house and my sister went with him, she got pregnant (on purpose) and lived in his house for a while. During this time she was also diagnosed with bipolar and she went off her medication. She eventually came to her senses and moved back in with us and dumped him. Even after the breakup, he still stalked her on the internet and was making a lot of serious threats and what not. Even years after the breakup.

I also would like to mention that very little of my life was spent going to church and when I did go, I wouldn't listen.

Now back to me.

I eventually dropped out of school in the 8th grade because the bullying wouldn't stop. I was also having thoughts about committing suicide. My parents knew nothing about my thoughts of suicide or the lifestyle I was living. I had no friends, nobody who I thought really cared about me.

So then my parents started going to church again and I was reminded about God. I knew basically what everyone else in this topic knows about God and Jesus, I had no way of verifying god or the bible 100%. As a reminder, if you learned anything about my life's story, I didn't get raised or grow up with sunshine and lolipops. In fact even today my sister and brother aren't christians. So it isn't exactly a christian family.

I was at a point when I had nothing to lose and I figured that anything was better than this. So I took the leap of faith, gave my life to jesus. Then I got involved into reading the bible right away, listening to preachers over the internet, reading christian books. I was really willing to make the effort. It only took about four months until I was free from that depraved lifestyle. I was a completely different person. Unfortunately some people won't understand how much i've actually changed but the difference is night and day. I certainly had a rough patch in my life again after becoming a christian, but i'm stronger from it. The church I was going to was lying to me and led me down that wrong path, so I ended up leaving it.

However, i've learned that not all churches and preachers are bad. I'm currently not in a church (because i'm moving far away soon) but what the bible has written down, god always been able to back it up for me. If I pray just the way the bible says to pray, I always get the results i'm after. Even when it comes to the little things. There have even been times when i've had headaches and I speak to them under the authority of Jesus and they are instantly gone.

That is why I believe so strongly in God and the bible. I've had too many powerful experiences (good and bad) to simply ignore.

Oh and my sister did keep the baby, she named her Jacob and i'm officially his uncle and he's almost 3 years old now and he's turned out to be a great kid.

EDIT: I would also like to say that what I believe is very different from catholics. Though you probably gathered that.
 

GhostAnime

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Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
939
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Atlanta, Georgia
uh.

i grew up in a normal christian family.

i grew up just believing in god but i never really 'liked' him. i just thought he existed and tried to be good.

before i even had the internet, i sometimes was wishing he didn't exist...

then i came here and saw snex and McFox debate.

i questioned my faith the more i read. then when i finally got nearly beat the death in March 2005... i became an atheist and just said forget it. we are primates, there is nothing out there that cares and i want to be good simply because i believe in it and not what an invisible man told me.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
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Jan 14, 2002
Messages
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This is about what I figured. Everyone has different reasons for becoming atheist. I'd like to hear some more Theist stories as well. I know not everyone was born into a theist upbringing, or if you were like me, you were and left it only to become more fervent.

What's most interesting about me, despite being atheist, I have very high morals. I don't drink or do drugs because I'd rather be in control of myself at all times. I don't lie in excess or steal because I don't want people to do that to me.

And on a side note, I've been wondering, what is your avatar a picture of? And if you don't believe in god/religion, etc., why is the title under your name "the messiah", with all due respect?
My avatar is Robert DeNiro as Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver. I have "The Messiah" as an ironical title.

To be honest, Snex and Bumble Bee Tuna made me atheist. I started going here in the sixth grade and read all those threads about religion, back when they debated...i forgot his name, some ultra religious guy whose avatar was Falco shooting a blaster. I read the sites and their arguments for the next year, and I kept of seeing theists incapable of holding ground. I started to doubt, but I still had faith. It kept on going until around the ninth grade, where I was really in doubt. It took me all of Sophomore year for me to finally let go of it and be an atheist.

Flash forward to now, I wouldn't call myself an atheist. Agnostic doesn't do it either. I'm reading into a lot of eastern religions, predominantly Buddhism and Jainism, but I'm not yet convinced. Who knows. I just posted this because I thought Snex and BBT (if he didn't die in that terrible car accident) might find it interesting. Jerks.
Wow, Eor, that really is pretty shocking that two people here changed your views that much. Kinda cool and kinda powerful.

My life could be best described as being rejected. I was bullied for years at school and at home (by my brother). I was very often depressed and very often sick. I got very interested in the bible and god for the first time when I was 10 years old or so. I then had a supernatural experience after I started reading the bible. It wasn't a good one either. I saw what looked a lot like a great horned owl, but with a very long tail. It was plain as day, sunshine and everything and it was inside my grandmothers house (I lived next door to her as the time). By the way I wasn't on anything either that would cause me to 'see things'. So yeah, the 'bird' which couldn't possibly exist or get into my grandma's house just walked up next to me. So I ran away from it and checked to see if it was still there, it was, just staring at me. So I was frozen in fear, the 'thing' walked away. I followed it for some reason and it disappeared into another room.

I went back to my house, clearly upset from that experience. Then I was just calming down and leaning in front of a wall. Then another impossible thing happened. I saw myself just standing there in front of me, same clothes, same everything. The only thing is, there wasn't any mirror or reflective surface and things just don't appear in front of you. Then I had many nightmares about it for months. I pulled away from god and the bible. Looking back on it, i'm convinced that what I saw was supernatural and was something of demonic origin.

One would rationalize that I was on something, but I wasn't on any drugs that would cause a hallucination. It was also just a one time thing and I have no history of mental illness in the family Besides even if I was mentally ill, I would continue to see things, which I haven't.

I eventually moved on and got into a very degrading lifestyle to cope with my bad life. I don't like going into details (especially at risk of disgusting people), but it was all consuming and some pretty dark stuff.

My sister also got a boyfriend, who lived with us for a while and he was nice but he eventually turned out to be a dishonest person. Then my sister finally got a really nice boyfriend, he came from a hard life and he was a seemingly honest guy. He was a great guy to be around and he ended up living with us for a while. Then he went totally nuts. He was starting to lie, constantly, even about the minute things (aka pathological liar). There was also a point where a group of people came to our house at night and smashed my dad's rear view mirror and vandalized our house. Which turned out to be his fault.

Then my sister's boyfriend was doing drugs behind our back and stealing stuff from our house and selling it for drug money. He then left our house and my sister went with him, she got pregnant (on purpose) and lived in his house for a while. During this time she was also diagnosed with bipolar and she went off her medication. She eventually came to her senses and moved back in with us and dumped him. Even after the breakup, he still stalked her on the internet and was making a lot of serious threats and what not. Even years after the breakup.

I also would like to mention that very little of my life was spent going to church and when I did go, I wouldn't listen.

Now back to me.

I eventually dropped out of school in the 8th grade because the bullying wouldn't stop. I was also having thoughts about committing suicide. My parents knew nothing about my thoughts of suicide or the lifestyle I was living. I had no friends, nobody who I thought really cared about me.

So then my parents started going to church again and I was reminded about God. I knew basically what everyone else in this topic knows about God and Jesus, I had no way of verifying god or the bible 100%. As a reminder, if you learned anything about my life's story, I didn't get raised or grow up with sunshine and lolipops. In fact even today my sister and brother aren't christians. So it isn't exactly a christian family.

I was at a point when I had nothing to lose and I figured that anything was better than this. So I took the leap of faith, gave my life to jesus. Then I got involved into reading the bible right away, listening to preachers over the internet, reading christian books. I was really willing to make the effort. It only took about four months until I was free from that depraved lifestyle. I was a completely different person. Unfortunately some people won't understand how much i've actually changed but the difference is night and day. I certainly had a rough patch in my life again after becoming a christian, but i'm stronger from it. The church I was going to was lying to me and led me down that wrong path, so I ended up leaving it.

However, i've learned that not all churches and preachers are bad. I'm currently not in a church (because i'm moving far away soon) but what the bible has written down, god always been able to back it up for me. If I pray just the way the bible says to pray, I always get the results i'm after. Even when it comes to the little things. There have even been times when i've had headaches and I speak to them under the authority of Jesus and they are instantly gone.

That is why I believe so strongly in God and the bible. I've had too many powerful experiences (good and bad) to simply ignore.

Oh and my sister did keep the baby, she named her Jacob and i'm officially his uncle and he's almost 3 years old now and he's turned out to be a great kid.

EDIT: I would also like to say that what I believe is very different from catholics. Though you probably gathered that.
Awesome ****ing story. I have no problem with this kind of faith, the kind that makes your life better.
 

blazedaces

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
1,150
Location
philly, PA, aim: blazedaces, msg me and we'll play
What's most interesting about me, despite being atheist, I have very high morals. I don't drink or do drugs because I'd rather be in control of myself at all times. I don't lie in excess or steal because I don't want people to do that to me.
Same thing with me. It's sad too, because now all my friends seem to be getting into drugs and alcohol heavily. I've even asked out in the open why is it we only seem to be able to have a good time if it involves drugs and alcohol? Why can't we enjoy ourselves like we used to... but I guess things always seem better in the past, looking back at it.

-blazed
 

marthanoob

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
272
Location
The House of Polemarchus
The text of an email I sent a few months ago to my immediate family (moderate to devout Hindus) and my cousins (haven't-thought-much-about-it).

How am I supposed to deal with this?

The Christians tell me that I must accept there was this ancient Jew who on being crucified by the Romans cast a magic spell that saved me from my sins.

Tibetan Buddhists eliminate their sins by walking around this sacred mountain, leading a better rebirth.

The Hindus eliminate their sins by jumping into the river Ganges at Benares.

So we would have multiple methods of achieving the same objective. Yet each of them claims the others is false and that God supports them.

At least jumping into a river offers a practical solution in that I know what to do, believer and non believer are saved alike. The Christians only offer is that I must believe, yet if I already believe then I am saved. So the offer is only being made to non Christians, ie those that do not believe. The statement could be reworded "we are saved, you are not".

We must indeed follow what God tells us is true. Since God has told me you gain salvation by sending me all your cash, and offering me your daughter to bed, this is true. The question is if you believe me, well of course you must since it is the word of God. So when I say to a Christian, "your God lies", they consider silly since God cannot lie. Yet they have no problems in attributing this lie to the Hindu gods and the river jumping.

Then there are the psychological aspects of it all:

.......Pro-religion.........

-Religiously pious people tend to have a higher happiness rate
-Offers a definite answer and all answers are provided
-Anxieties are released because of the strength of answer
-Life has meaning and there is something to look forward to
-An outlet is provided for concerns, problems, guilt, and sins.
-Feel as if you truly belong in a group of people (Example: Church community)
-Feel no need for revenge as your god(s) will do this for you
-Feel that here is justice in the world for the weak and hurt
-Responsibility is removed and an inferiority complex follows

......Con-religion.........

-Doubt is always there, unless one is a very stubborn atheist
-Strives for a greater understanding of morals, meaning, and philosophies with an open mind
-Generally more individualistic
-Feel that you are realistic
-Feel that you do not need god(s) to give you a purpose
-Feel that society or yourself is capable of penalizing wrong-doers
-Feel that you will not be taken advantage of by religious con-men
-Feel that belief in something greater than you is not necessary to lead the life you want to lead
-Feel that you have responsibility for your own actions and for yourself so a superiority complex follows

Yes...I know I overanalyzed this, but I would prefer the confusion to be dispelled. Another thing -

God cannot be perfect, for in his omniscience, he must have experienced imperfection. God cannot be omnibenevolent, because he punishes people instead of using his "omnipotence" to physically restrict them from sinning. THOU SHALT NOT HARM: the sinner's limbs dematerialize. Why doesn't he do that? Why does he even give us free will in the first place if he knows we will abuse it? He is omniscient too so he can read our minds and know what we are doing before we do it. ("Against boredom even gods struggle in vain." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche) God is commiting an injustice by letting it happen. The moment one introduces God in the scene, nothing is anyone's fault. What a perfect psychological manipulation tool...I admire Jesus. He was in the business for a good cause, but had Jesus seen the effects of his sacrafice, he would surely repudiate ever saying a word.

I request you all think deeply on my statements.

Have a nice day.
 

Cubemario

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
299
Marthanoob, that email looks more like debate material and seems to belong in the other topic :\
 

IWontGetOverTheDam

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,798
Location
MN
Currently agnostic. I think the fact that the entire idea of God contrdicts itself. The way I see it, either God isn't even close to what you learned about in Sunday School, or he doen't exist. Although, if an Atheist and a Theist argue, there can never be a winner of the debate. Any argument offered by the atheist can be countered with one word: "Faith." To quote Penn and Teller's "Bull****!", "If someone has faith, we can't touch you."
 

mzink*

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
984
Location
MI
Sorry if this story jumps around and is a bit unorganized.

I was raised in a Lutheran church, my stepdad was very religious. It was a very old style church, women had to always keep their heads covered and were not allowed to wear pants or jewelry or makeup except for a wedding band and were not allowed to speak out in the church with questions or anything while men were. It was taught that the outside world was the devil's work and we were to avoid it at all costs. No TV, no radio, no internet, no movies, nothing. You weren't allowed to keep a bible in your home, because you could never understand God, so why should you confuse yourself by trying. Most people stopped school after high school and got a simple job, got married, made lots of babies, and worked for the church. Oh and you weren't supposed to marry anyone from outside the church.

I questioned this constantly, they pretty much told you that the whole rest of the world was going to hell unless they believed what our church did, which seemed completely ridiculous to me. It was expected that you go to the priests regularly to confess your sins. I watched people literally cry and wail and throw themselves on the floor begging for forgiveness and I really didn't know what to think of it all. When I made clear that I wasn't about to do this people started thinking there was something wrong with me, like my heart was hardened or something. My own mother told me demons were possessing me and that I needed to break free of them. She constantly tried to drag me to the priests for healing and I fought her every step of the way. All of my brothers and sisters just went with it like good little kids which made my actions stick out even more. Though I rejected the ideas of the church I did still believe and fear god since it was pretty well beatin into my brain that he was up there. My stepdad told me that god cried every time I rejected the church and the devils hold on me got alittle stronger. I was also plagued by nightmares of demons and monsters when I was younger and I believed that it was god's way of punishing me for not having strong faith. Night was terrifying for me and I usually got very little sleep.

As I got older I pretty much grew bitter towards religion and despised everyone in the church. All their stupid rules and expectations seemed so wrong. Why should my only goal in life as a woman be to marry young and make lots of babies for the church to turn into religious robots. My mother even pulled me out of school because the preachers said that it was influencing me too much. I was just sitting in class and one day my stepdad stormed in and grabbed me and yanked me out the door. Thankfully my mother thought it was a good idea to allow me to start back up in a new school even though my stepdad was against it.

Through all this I did have an outside influence - my dad. I was able to visit him in the summer and he is very open minded and not very religious, so I'd get a taste of a completely different way to live, which fueled my hatred of the church. Finally at 15 I told my mother I was leaving to go live with my dad and she cried and broke down and begged me not to leave the church but something was still telling me that my fathers way of living was NOT evil and that I'd be just fine without the church even if I was alittle nervous. Living with my dad was like being opened to a whole new world I experienced so much and learned so much and grew drastically as a person. Now my view on religion is that if some people benefit from it then that's fine and lots of my friends are religious and I couldn't care less. I am open to the idea that maybe there is a God or Creator or whatever but I do not believe that It would expect anything out of me other than to live my gift of life to the fullest.

My brothers and sisters, mother and stepfather are still faithful members to that church and it pretty much creates a giant wall that separates our family.

So that's my story in a very sloppily written nutshell lol.
 

Grandeza

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
4,035
Location
Brooklyn,New York
I guess I'm agnostic. I was raised catholic but I guess sometime last year I was converted to agnostic. I'll honestly say the biggest factor in my change of faith was smashboards. I never had any reason to believe in god. I guess I just did because I went to catholic school and never really thought about it. I think there's a chance there's a higher power and won't outright disbelieve it however I there's an equally likely chance there's not. I certainly hope there's a god. I don't want to just be gone after death...
 

The Executive

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
1,434
Location
Within the confines of my mortal shell in T-Town.
Just reposting this from the other thread seeing as how it pertains to the topic. CK has already responded to this, but I'm putting it out there for anyone who hasn't read it already.

I was born three months premature, so I was pretty small for a newborn (2lb. 8 oz). I had an atrial septal defect (hole between the upper heart chambers), ventricular tachycardia, and a few underdeveloped organs (heart, lungs, digestive system) so I was on life support from shortly after I was born. Within the first few days I had a grade 4 intracranial hemorrhage resulting in spastic cerebral palsy and loss of sight, hearing, and mental capacity. For the next 2 months, I was hooked up to an array of monitors and machines where I looked not too different from your average pincushion. The prognosis was, should I ever leave the hospital (the doctors said I wouldn't), I would be a stunted vegetable, immobile and isolated from the world. If I did leave the hospital, I probably would not survive my first year. My parents were God-fearing people, so they had long before sent word to everyone they knew asking to pray that I would pull through.

For reasons I'm still trying to figure out, God healed me. This was an instance where if you asked a physician why this occurred the response would be "this cannot be explained". It doesn't logically add up. I can see, hear, move, think, and interact as well as or better than your average 17-year old. Cerebral palsy is defined as an "irreversible brain condition", yet the only indication I even have it would be slight hemiparesis (decreased mass on one side of the body). The various marks and scars are the only signs that anything was ever wrong. The meaning of the word "irreversible" has not changed, and I logically should not exist in my current state. The interference of something else existing outside the realm of human logic (i.e. God) is the only explanation I see possible.

Thus, I believe in the Christian God and His teachings.
 

AIDS

Smash Lord
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
1,333
Location
Delta B.C. Canada
Ok now for my statements.

For over 17 years of my life i did not believe in God, I always was very much against it, in the same extent as many here, But before i go into detail we must keep in mind that Catholic, and Christian are not the same, and we can not use Catholic beliefs to compare to a Christian church, for one thing I do not even understand why people worship virgin Mary, she was blessed to have that point of history, not amazing, it was God who gave her that opportunity, and that is just one example of a major difference.

Some Christian churches are religious. Like you must fold your hands a certain way, you must do this and this, like it is mandatory in there life. This is false, you worship god with your heart and your own respect, there is no secret code to it or w/e people are telling you. But these religious people are gaining nothing; you must have your own respect, your own experiences and your own connection with God. A lot of Christian church's do not have the Holy Spirit, and A lot of Christian church's will not go anywhere with that, so you can not make an assumption according to one church.

When I first came to god I was 17, like last October, and I went to my first bible study with my Friend Jasmine, and with that I met this women who was blind and also new, and one thing that really strengthened my faith was seeing her healed in church in a couple weeks down the road, she can see today. And when you here people like Jehovah witnesses etc. who think the have superior knowledge etc. trying to preach to you, with there human knowledge of the bible, you can ask them "what miracles have you witnessed in your church?" and I bet they will have no answer. Also the Holy spirit (the spirit of God) gives us the ability to do many un human things, if you read the book of acts in the bible, you will notice many of these things, and i do see similar things even today in my church, so when people tell me "God does not exist" I laugh to myself a bit, because of witnessing these things.

To my next point many people debate using the bible against God, and we must understand the bible is very symbolic in some areas, and you must look at what they are preaching toward, for example, the church of Corinth was very corrupt, and when you read the books of Corinthians you must put in your mind why Paul is writing the way he is. In other cases others might be having dreams, etc. Not everything is a direct story.

The Old Testimate also has a lot to predicting the birth of Jesus Christ and what he would do for us. I find the bible speaks the truth, and the main Christian versions of today are NIV, and NLT, and I read NLT, which is a direct translation from the original bible. So if you do have anything to point out feel free to let me know, I will do my best to support my post.

I read what Crimson King post about this being not a argument debate thread, and I am not arguing anyone here, this post is just a small sample of when called me and started to edit my life. But I am open to anyone who feels the need to question something on my post.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I was born and raised Catholic. Baptized, circumcised, then years later I had my first Communion. Around grade 5 or 6, I began to go to Sunday School, where I think I started my gradual process of leaving Christianity. This is probably really stupid, but my brother and I would sit there and go through the colouring book we were given during Sunday School and we would take a Sharpie and practically edit the entire thing, giving people mustaches, weird wrinkles, and other silly things. I remember distinctly that we laughed for a good hour after we saw a picture of Jesus breaking bread and saying "We give tanks", a blatant typo.

And then it kind of started. My brother and I both kind of felt that it was all really not for us. We were both extremely stubborn kids, and the more I look back the more I realize that my religious upbringing was probably the cause of.

By this time, I was well aware of myself and began to think the matters over. I started to regret going to church, becoming so bored by the sermons that I started taking Archie Comics and reading them in the pews, not listening to a word the priest was saying. When I turned 16 my dad decided that if I got my Confirmation, church-going wouldn't be necessary. I realized at this point that while I didn't exactly want to, out of principles, I knew that it would make my dad really happy. I was confirmed and took the name David, simply because my computer science teacher (who was hardcore Christian) was named David.

It was when I stopped going to church that I realized that all I did was allow myself to sleep in on Sundays. It didn't do anything negative to my health or my outlook, but it also didn't exactly do anything positive either. This is because all through my teenage years, and still to this day, I knew that what I was learning in church wasn't fact. Which isn't to say that it wasn't true - I just knew that the Bible was a collection of stories with morals. I never listened to the sermons, I've never read the Bible, and I never really did anything religious other than genuflect after church.

My religious experiences weren't bad, nor were they unhealthy. I met a lot of good people, I made my dad happy, and I grew as a person, all the while knowing that the core ideals the church was preaching were common in the laws in our government.

But that was then. Nowadays, in a world where atheism is cool, I sit in public places and overhear people bashing religion to be cool or to look informed. This kind of thing really bothers me. I don't know why. All I know is knowledge of the Gods is unknowable at this point, and the secrets of the universe probably won't be explained to us in our lifetime.

I'm going to be going to my cottage in a few days. There, I'll set my alarm for 3AM, I'll walk down to the beach, and I'll lie down on chaises and stargaze. Talk to me then, and you'd probably find me in a trance: reflecting and philosophizing, but oddly enough, deeply spiritual. I say oddly because it's not like me. I think space just does that to me.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
28,982
So, wait, what caused the change from faithless to **** near devout?
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
I think it's pretty interesting that people who 'grew up' in the church tend to be the strong atheists, while people without the strong religious backgrounds are now the professing religious types

Anyone out there who was raised in the church and remains Christian through today?
 

AIDS

Smash Lord
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
1,333
Location
Delta B.C. Canada
I think it's pretty interesting that people who 'grew up' in the church tend to be the strong atheists, while people without the strong religious backgrounds are now the professing religious types

Anyone out there who was raised in the church and remains Christian through today?
There are many of those type of people at my church.

one of by best friends was raised in a christian family, but he did not live a christian life.
As a christian you must have your own encounter with God, or the christian teachings around you will mean nothing in the end.

and as for this friend of mine who is on swf BC PR and all, he is not a debater though, but he rededicated his life.

Being in a christian Family does not make you Christian, God must be chosen by God, and he will show you how real he is. and this is what i have learned with this issue.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
Right; I'm thinking that people who had religion "forced upon them" before // as opposed to discovering it for themselves are far more likely to reject it outright
 

victra♥

crystal skies
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
14,275
Location
Edmonton
Slippi.gg
victra#0
I apologize if I go on tangents or have long run-on sentences. I didn't really take the time to organize it.

I grew up in a fairly agnostic home, with the exception of my Grandfather who was Buddhist. My Grandfather was my biggest influence when I was younger, but when he and my Grandmother moved out after my parents had a divorce, I ended up staying with my dad, who was agnostic. This is all happening when i'm 10 years old or so. Since he's a working single dad taking care of two kids, we ended up having a nanny stay in our home. She happened to be Christian, but she wasn't an extremist or anything. I started going to church, as well as Sunday school afterwards. It was a new experience for me and I didn't think much of this at the time. I was always told by my classmates in school, as well as my own family, that there was a God who created everything and that he'd send you to heaven when you died ever since I can remember. I guess I never thought otherwise because I didn't understand how to universe could have been created otherwise. I never actually read the Bible back then either, but I knew that if I didn't believe in God I would be sent to Hell forever. That was definitely the biggest problem for me and for the longest time, I was too afraid of doubting his existing. I went to Church on and off for a few years, and during this time I still haven't read the Bible. Near the beginning of this year, I found out that my school had this Christian club at lunch so I decided to stop by and see if I would learn anything interesting. Boy was I wrong. They had a visitor priest from a local church there telling this personal story of how he knows God is watching after him. It basically went like this; He lost his autographed baseball when he was younger and looked everywhere for it. For the longest time he could not find it and since he was moving to a new house soon, he prayed to God every night, praying that he could find his ball. Days passed, and his family packs up all there belongings, including the priest himself. While the priest was packing up his things, he prayed long and hard and then, miraculously, he finds his autographed baseball under his bed. The priest literally said this like he meant it, and the rest of the club members went on to share their own personal, and similar, stories. That was the last time I went to anything associated with Christianity. After that, i started to read the Bible and i was stunned. I actually had to double check that I was reading the Bible. I became really fascinated with Christianity, and Religion in general, after that. I read Dawkins' The God Delusion as well as a few of his documentaries and interviews on Youtube and I was literally hooked. I became an Atheist soon after, and my Atheist beliefs have only grown since i've been in the Debate Hall.

tl;dr 6000 years? lol wut.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Then I'm not too sure what you're talking about :/

I've never been too devout or faithless. I've always had my distances from either extreme. Maybe you can explain what you were talking about.
 

Amide

Smash Lord
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
1,217
Location
Maine
I really enjoyed your story CK. I think that lots of people turn atheist because the extreme religious community is so uninviting. Especially what you said about forcing that baby to go outside. Some people are so trapped in their religion, they practically go insane. I believe in god, but to a certain point. It's pretty obvious being realistic that God isn't the completely caring figure that everyone says. Look at the news. Why would God allow this stuff? I think there is a god, but creationism makes no sense at all. Some overall force had to begin at some time, but "God's will" is the worst excuse for something bad, period.
 

Mediocre

Ziz
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Messages
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Earth Bet
I think it's pretty interesting that people who 'grew up' in the church tend to be the strong atheists, while people without the strong religious backgrounds are now the professing religious types

Anyone out there who was raised in the church and remains Christian through today?
I'm the opposite kind of person that you asked for, but I don't see anyone here who's always been atheist/agnostic, so I might as well post.

I've never really believed in God. Both my parents were agnostics, but they didn't ever try to force me into agnosticism or away from religion. They just raised me totally secularly. I had very Christian neighbors, whose kids I would play with a lot from a very early age, until maybe two years before high school. The neighbors would sometimes talk to me about God, and I definitely considered the notion for a number of years. I would pray occasionally, although never very seriously. Eventually I decided that it was just silly. I also asked my parents to go to church on two different occasions. The first time we went to what I think was probably a protestant church. I didn't like it at all. No one there was hostile, but there was also no one there who made any kind of effort to make me, or anyone else in my family, feel welcome.

The second time I visited a unitarian church, which I felt much more favorable towards. The people there were friendly, and the sermon (if you could call it that), was easy for me to understand. However, it didn't do anything to convince me of the existence of God, or of any kind of spirituality. I don't think they were trying to. I appreciate that, because it tempered what may have otherwise developed into an unfavorable view of religion.

But, if there was no God, I did not see any point in taking over an hour out of every week to visit a church. It seemed like a waste of time.

Then, about five years ago, when I was fifteen years old (under my old forum name, not my current one), I came here. I initially came to talk about Melee, but I soon found and got involved in the debate hall. I saw no convincing reasoning here to become a Christian, or religious at all. I met and talked to other atheists and agnostics, who had different backgrounds and opinions, but shared my non-belief in God. I think I would have remained atheist/agnostic even without this kind of community, but I can't know that for sure. What I do know is that my interaction with other posters here shaped my own agnosticism, and eventually made me into a sort of very weak atheist, as well as an agnostic.

So, I don't acknowledge God's existence, because I see no reason to. I definitely don't know that God exists, which makes me an agnostic. I also see no reason to believe he exists, which makes me a weak atheist. However, I can definitely respect people who feel otherwise.



I realize this is not the most interesting account in this topic. In fact, I suspect it may be the least interesting. However, I felt like I should post, just so that everyone here could read the experiences of someone who has dabbled with religion, but who has been a nonbeliever all his life.
 

Peeze

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
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Location
Sunshine State of Mind
It seems like most of the people that became atheist/agnostic were raised catholic. Just pointing that out...for no reason at all.
 

Eor

Banned via Warnings
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Jan 2, 2003
Messages
9,963
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Bed
I was raised in a very non-devout, casual religious home. Just to say (Methodist too! They don't even read the bible)
 

Aesir

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
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Location
Cts inconsistant antagonist
I think the Catholic/Orthodox chruch's are pretty cool, I actually like the religion. That may be because it's the last view of how paganism use to be which has always fascinated me.
 

JediKnightLuigi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
117
Location
Indy, IN
Mediocre:
"There are two things that make me believe there is a God: The starry heavens above, and the moral law within."

I dont remember which famous author said that, but i think it was e.e. cummings, i dont remember though.
 

Aesir

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JediKnightLuigi said:
Mediocre:
"There are two things that make me believe there is a God: The starry heavens above, and the moral law within."

I dont remember which famous author said that, but i think it was e.e. cummings, i dont remember though.
Really? cause those are the two things that made me not believe in god. Different strokes for different folks you could say I guess.

disclaimer: this isn't meant to incite a debate so don't think it is.
 

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Mediocre:
"There are two things that make me believe there is a God: The starry heavens above, and the moral law within."

I dont remember which famous author said that, but i think it was e.e. cummings, i dont remember though.
Not sure with cummings, but people get so horribly misquoted on God. Take Einstein. He was quoted as saying "Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind," and theist take this to mean Einstein believed in a god, which he did not.
 
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