Why should 4's system be like Melees?

[Guybrush20X6]

I've seen a lot of people looking at what footage there is and every time there's always complaining when something resembles the mechanics of Brawl.

Why?

I hated tripping as much as anyone and Brawl was a bit too floaty but what about air dodging once, then plummeting like a lead balloon is great? I'm asking for an honest explanation, I'm genuinely clueless.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Because...WAVEDASHWAVEDASHWAVEDASH. (Or No Items, Fox only, Final Destination, if you're feeling spiteful. :D )

That is all.

 

[blerb]

I just want the game to be competitively viable. I don't care which game it resembles more, and I honestly doubt most do. It doesn't need to be like Melee to be a good game.

Luckily, Sakurai has already stated he's going for a balance between competition and casual fun this time around... So there's that.

 

[•Col•]

Because...WAVEDASHWAVEDASHWAVEDASH. (Or No Items, Fox only, Final Destination, if you're feeling spiteful. :D )

Ignorance.

I think most Melee players problem with Brawl is of how painfully slow it is. It greatly rewards defensive playstyle which just slows everything down. Things like shielding mechanics in Brawl means you can't put pressure onto shields as safely as you could in previous games. With ledge snap mechanics and increased floatiness meant edgeguarding recovering characters became both harder and often times less rewarding or even riskier than in Melee. Hell, in Brawl plenty of characters can be PUNISHED for hitting the opponent(just go look at Jigglypuff)... Stuff like this is only made worse by the fact that you can't combo much in Brawl, so you don't even gain much for trying to be aggressive and attacking the opponent. So matches tend to come down to pure spacing and punishing...

Anyway yeah, I think when it comes back to Smash 4, people who enjoyed Melee are looking at things like the general ability to combo (hitstun), the general ability to recover (floatiness/edge snapping), the ability to safely pressure opponents (l-cancelling/instant shield dropping) hoping that the game won't feel slow. Although I think it's too early to be overanalyzing the trailers right now considering it could easily change (Brawl demo had way more similarities to Melee than the final version did)... So yeah. They're just worried that Smash 4 will be slow, which isn't conductive to a competitive gaming environment. Looking back, Brawl was definitely designed more with party games in mind. It was meant to be played for fun, not competitively. That's why Melee players say "I don't want another Brawl'. It's not about specific advanced tech. abilities. It's about the overall feel of the game.

That's just my observations and opinion though, I suppose.

 

[SmashChu]

I've seen a lot of people looking at what footage there is and every time there's always complaining when something resembles the mechanics of Brawl.

Why?

I hated tripping as much as anyone and Brawl was a bit too floaty but what about air dodging once, then plummeting like a lead balloon is great? I'm asking for an honest explanation, I'm genuinely clueless.

From the outside looking in.......

Competitive Smash players, for some reason, idolize Melee. The one truth of tournament Smash is that Melee is the greatest game ever made. This is why the most popular mod is one that turns Brawl into Melee. Brawl+ and Balance Brawl were phased out because they were not Melee enough. In fact, the latter tried to be Brawl as Brawl, just catering to the competitive taste). It never caught on like the other two. It's Melee or nothing.

 

[Mithost]

People are unable to fathom the Brawl engine being competitive, which is sad seeing that only a few minor things were holding it back (easy ledges, lack of hitstun). The people who think melee falling speed and wavedashing need to be in to be competitive need to get the stick out of their buts.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I never got wave dashing. The thing I hate about other fighting games is having to contort my hands to move a stick and hit 3 buttons at once with precise timing. Why bring that into Smash Bros. I do hate how Brawl's hitstun mechanics near neutered Captain Falcon so I can see why some would be passionate about it.

 

[Katakiri]

They complain because Melee players are a bunch of grumpy old men a little too set in their ways while Brawl players are a bunch of grumpy old men that hate their game and think anything better is the coming of the Messiah.
Brawl is an slow, unbalanced, defensive, thinking-man's game and Melee is a fast(er), kinda-balanced, offensive, reaction/combo game. A mixture of both would be perfect imo and that's not only what it looks like, but it's what Sakurai says it is as well. A solid combo-game that at least has defensive strategies as a viable option would be pretty fantastic. Floatiness wouldn't be much of an issue if the hit-stun is enough to still combo with (and it looks like it might be the case from what few "weak" hits we've seen.)

And if you're talking about the Melee It On Me podcast's look at SSB4, they are the oldest of the old men and compare EVERYTHING to Melee because they played Brawl for like a week and a half before going back to Melee for another 6 years. They know Brawl is floaty, low hit-stun, and tripping exists. They're walking encyclopedias for Melee but watching them try to make Brawl comparisons was painful. It goes the same way from most Brawl players too, just different levels of expectation causing different levels of ********.

I personally don't want to see too many Melee elements in Smash 4. I want the game to be faster than Brawl overall in terms of animations, balanced, and with actual combo potential but that's about it. I love how play-styles in Brawl can change drastically because of a match-up. Not because a match-up is bad but because one style of play may be more optimal in a match-up compared to others. It turns one character into a significantly different one even if it's the same player using it. But at the same time, fighting someone else, using the same character but with a different idea of how to use it would completely change how you were going to play as well. Melee didn't have a lot of that aside from fighting Puff or ICs. Fox isn't going to change his bread and butter options for anyone since there's rarely any need to. Brawl created that need more or less and made it a thinking game. As long as it didn't hinder gameplay, I'd really love for that to be kept.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

They complain because Melee players are a bunch of grumpy old men a little too set in their ways while Brawl players are a bunch of grumpy old men that hate their game and think anything better is the coming of the Messiah.
Brawl is an slow, unbalanced, defensive, thinking-man's game and Melee is a fast(er), kinda-balanced, offensive, reaction/combo game. A mixture of both would be perfect imo and that's not only what it looks like, but it's what Sakurai says it is as well. A solid combo-game that at least has defensive strategies as a viable option would be pretty fantastic. Floatiness wouldn't be much of an issue if the hit-stun is enough to still combo with (and it looks like it might be the case from what few "weak" hits we've seen.)

And if you're talking about the Melee It On Me podcast's look at SSB4, they are the oldest of the old men and compare EVERYTHING to Melee because they played Brawl for like a week and a half before going back to Melee for another 6 years. They know Brawl is floaty, low hit-stun, and tripping exists. They're walking encyclopedias for Melee but watching them try to make Brawl comparisons was painful. It goes the same way from most Brawl players too, just different levels of expectation causing different levels of *****ing.

I personally don't want to see too many Melee elements in Smash 4. I want the game to be faster than Brawl overall in terms of animations, balanced, and with actual combo potential but that's about it. I love how play-styles in Brawl can change drastically because of a match-up. Not because a match-up is bad but because one style of play may be more optimal in a match-up compared to others. It turns one character into a significantly different one even if it's the same player using it. But at the same time, fighting someone else, using the same character but with a different idea of how to use it would completely change how you were going to play as well. Melee didn't have a lot of that aside from fighting Puff or ICs. Fox isn't going to change his bread and butter options for anyone since there's rarely any need to. Brawl created that need more or less and made it a thinking game. As long as it didn't hinder gameplay, I'd really love for that to be kept.

Well, you said it. Please, have all of my internets. It's not much, but you deserve it!

 

[killazys]

I just hope Sakurai gets the balance right. But I would also prefer something in between Brawl and Melee, just.. maybe.. 40/60 in favor of Melee in terms of speed, edge-grabbing, and combo ability.

 

[FirestormNeos]

INFINITE AIR-DASH RECOVERY. YOU CANNOT WIN.

 

[Zauron]

Ignorance.

I think most Melee players problem with Brawl is of how painfully slow it is. It greatly rewards defensive playstyle which just slows everything down. Things like shielding mechanics in Brawl means you can't put pressure onto shields as safely as you could in previous games. With ledge snap mechanics and increased floatiness meant edgeguarding recovering characters became both harder and often times less rewarding or even riskier than in Melee. Hell, in Brawl plenty of characters can be PUNISHED for hitting the opponent(just go look at Jigglypuff)... Stuff like this is only made worse by the fact that you can't combo much in Brawl, so you don't even gain much for trying to be aggressive and attacking the opponent. So matches tend to come down to pure spacing and punishing...

Anyway yeah, I think when it comes back to Smash 4, people who enjoyed Melee are looking at things like the general ability to combo (hitstun), the general ability to recover (floatiness/edge snapping), the ability to safely pressure opponents (l-cancelling/instant shield dropping) hoping that the game won't feel slow. Although I think it's too early to be overanalyzing the trailers right now considering it could easily change (Brawl demo had way more similarities to Melee than the final version did)... So yeah. They're just worried that Smash 4 will be slow, which isn't conductive to a competitive gaming environment. Looking back, Brawl was definitely designed more with party games in mind. It was meant to be played for fun, not competitively. That's why Melee players say "I don't want another Brawl'. It's not about specific advanced tech. abilities. It's about the overall feel of the game.

That's just my observations and opinion though, I suppose.

This.

At least in my case. I don't care if Wavedashing is in or not. I actually think L-cancelling was an unnecessary mechanic (it didn't offer any new tactical depth, as you should ALWAYS L-cancel, there's no tactical reason not to - at least Wavedash had reasons why you shouldn't use it in every situation - so just make the land lag shorter overall and be done with it I say).

What I care about is having at least some comboing and aggressive play style be viable, the physics work sensibly (a living character sliding down a non-icy slope just from landing on it makes no sense, people are not boxes!), the controls responding well (c-stick is far less reliable in Brawl than in Melee - heck it doesn't work at all if you ever try setting the game to run lower than 1x speed in training mode!), and ledge guarding, one of the things that really set Smash apart from other games, having depth (like having to actually aim recovery moves to sweet spot). That and of course decent balance in the roster and removing exploits like infinite grabs and such.

I actually liked Melee's dodge system better, partially because it was just plain easier to SEE if someone was dodging or not, and if they really wanted to get rid of Wavedashing, changing the dodge isn't the only method. It would be simple to add code that made it so if you hit the ground during the air dodge you just didn't slide, maybe instead you instantly cancel the air dodge into a ground dodge in the direction you are moving, or maybe your momentum just stopped instantly, or maybe the air dodge just continued with you kinda dodging while hovering barely above the ground and then you just landed normally. People that claimed that it was impossible to remove Wavedashing with the Melee-style dodge have no idea how programming actually works. I actually added Melee-style air dodging in the Spider-Man DS games I made and they didn't cause Wavedashing.

 

[Mr.C]

Because Melee is a great example of a very deep, skill intensive game that can also be played on a casual level. Something all fighting games should strive for and something Brawl did not offer. A game does not have to be Melee; Melee just has the qualities of a very great fighting game.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Because Melee is a great an example of a very deep, skill intensive game that can also be played on a casual level. Something all fighting games should strive for and something Brawl did not offer. A game does not have to be Melee; Melee just has the qualities of a very great fighting game.

How did individual mechanics in Melee contribute to this? Once again, curious.

I think the Smash Bros series's strength over other fighting games is that combos aren't the backbone of the design and if you can pull them off it's a sign of skill. I'm guessing Brawl tipped the balance too much for the tastes of the competitive kind.

 

[Arcadia157]

Never have I seen such Brawl support in one place. How icky.

For my arguments, I assume we're talking about why Smash 4 being more like Melee would make it a better competitive game. Otherwise, there should be no argument at all amongst anyone.

Melee air dodge is better because it can be used to facilitate in an upward, safe, and sometimes unexpected recovery (See puff for example). It would also allow the developers to add wavedashing which gives people SO much more mobility on the ground and that's something a lot of people don't understand. If they can add some sort of wavedashing with the Brawl edgeguarding, then I guess I'm okay with that? The Brawl air dodge is also way too retardedly safe to the point that you can drop down and be okay. If you're put above your opponent, it shouldn't be so free to come down like Brawl has it...

Melee has the ability to actually combo. People can argue that Brawl has combos too, but a lot of Melee combos are almost total inescapable traps that will continue or lead to a kill/edgeguard unless SDI'd. So basically the continuation of the combo is dependent on the skill of the offender while the ability to get out is dependent on the extremely useful yet difficult ability to SDI. I shouldn't have to explain why these types of combos are essential to a good competitive fighting game.

For L-Cancelling, I'm pretty neutral about it. I prefer to have it be implemented because I already know how to do it fluently and it helps separate the new players from those who actually put in some practice.

Also, there should be no argument as to why Smash 4 should have better ledge mechanics, more hit-stun on moves, no tripping, and less floatiness when compared to Brawl.

And lastly to the guy calling out the MIOM crew, age has nothing to do with passion of the game. We're in a generation where it's pretty acceptable to be a hardcore game and be in your mid-late 20s. You complain about them being too old to play the game anymore, but that's something I would expect an old fashioned parent to say. And in that case, that would make you a hypocrite. Also, in your last paragraph you made it sound like Fox players don't have to think as much as a Brawl player. My whole post has been nearly all opinion and I realize that and expect some people to disagree. But a technically sound Melee Fox player does more thinking than any other player in any smash game. That's a fact.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

One thing though. Even if Melee style air-dodging returns there's no way of knowing if the physics engine will allow it to even do something resembling wavedashing. Just needed to get that out there..

 

[DakotaBonez]

It all boils down to the way dodging in the air is handled at this point.

 

[Mr.C]

How did individual mechanics in Melee contribute to this? Once again, curious.

I think the Smash Bros series's strength over other fighting games is that combos aren't the backbone of the design and if you can pull them off it's a sign of skill. I'm guessing Brawl tipped the balance too much for the tastes of the competitive kind.

Everything in Melee added very fluid, deep, and complex mechanics while also being simple to understand. For example, hit-stun, Lcanceling, no auto-mated edge guarding, the air dodge system (allowing superior movement through Wave Dashing), character weight actually meant something, pointless in Brawl because of it's floatiness. Proper dash mechanics, e.g, being allowed to shield while in your initial dash animation, opening up more complex game play.

Hit-stun: Everything in Brawl just feels out of place. Common sense dictates if you hit someone in Melee, you're capable of following through due to your superior situation. Not true for Brawl. You read someones play, punish their play, then all of a sudden you get smacked with a move while your still in animation from the move you punished the player with. It just doesn't reward the superior player as well in Brawl as it does in Melee. And right/wrong decisions are less transparent because the game engine feels so bad.

Lcanceling: In the context of SSB64/Melee, it added fluid aerial combat. Something that absolutely does not exist in Brawl. In Melee you can pick any character and perform well if you're the better player. In Brawl the games physics imprison you. You're forced to pick characters that have zero landing lag on aerials because there is literally no other option. Lcanceling also added a mechanical depth towards the game due to it being something you needed to master, something that separated truly competitive players (people willing to practice for their achievements) from the people just wanting watered down game play.

Auto-mated edge guard: Is terrible and should not have been added in Brawl. It completely neuters properly edge guarding. If you outplay someone, get them off the stage, and then have an auto game play mechanic built into the games physics save them, that's terrible. You should be rewarded or punished for your decisions, not have them hampered by game play mechanics built to allow casuals to perform better.

Air Dodge: While there is nothing inherently wrong with Brawls air dodge, in addition to the games low hit stun and the removal of Wave Dashing all it did was hurt game play. Wave Dashing made characters useful. Imagine if Luigi in Brawl had a form of mobility like WDing. He would actually be viable. Removing mechanics just to remove them is a terrible game design philosophy. Competitive players love options. WDing was just another combat option.

Character weight: Weight meant something in Melee regarding death timers and combos, it was very important. Brawl is just floaty chunkiness that feels bad, that has no direction other than allowing newer players to feel better about not being experienced players.

Dashing/Shielding/Jumping: In Brawl all of these feels choppy. Can't shield from your dash animation, why? It makes no sense to remove something that helped you in combat. It was simply a decision made to water down game play so the transparency between good and bad players wasn't so high. Something a competitive game should NEVER do.

Game play felt fluid. The advanced techniques in the game were something that needed to be practiced extensively to be performed efficiently (something that's good for deep game play). In Brawl everything is watered down and handed to you on a silver platter, so less experienced players felt good about themselves without needing to dedicate the time towards actually practicing. These are just general explanations that could be explained much more deeply but would take way too long, especially considering Brawl players never listen anyways.

 

[GaretHax]

Ignorance.

I think most Melee players problem with Brawl is of how painfully slow it is. It greatly rewards defensive playstyle which just slows everything down. Things like shielding mechanics in Brawl means you can't put pressure onto shields as safely as you could in previous games. With ledge snap mechanics and increased floatiness meant edgeguarding recovering characters became both harder and often times less rewarding or even riskier than in Melee. Hell, in Brawl plenty of characters can be PUNISHED for hitting the opponent(just go look at Jigglypuff)... Stuff like this is only made worse by the fact that you can't combo much in Brawl, so you don't even gain much for trying to be aggressive and attacking the opponent. So matches tend to come down to pure spacing and punishing...

Anyway yeah, I think when it comes back to Smash 4, people who enjoyed Melee are looking at things like the general ability to combo (hitstun), the general ability to recover (floatiness/edge snapping), the ability to safely pressure opponents (l-cancelling/instant shield dropping) hoping that the game won't feel slow. Although I think it's too early to be overanalyzing the trailers right now considering it could easily change (Brawl demo had way more similarities to Melee than the final version did)... So yeah. They're just worried that Smash 4 will be slow, which isn't conductive to a competitive gaming environment. Looking back, Brawl was definitely designed more with party games in mind. It was meant to be played for fun, not competitively. That's why Melee players say "I don't want another Brawl'. It's not about specific advanced tech. abilities. It's about the overall feel of the game.

That's just my observations and opinion though, I suppose.

This is a really good post, plus the engine itself was kind of an embarrassment, and the gimped movement options (not just talking about the sluggishness).

 

[Neanderthal]

I've seen a lot of people looking at what footage there is and every time there's always complaining when something resembles the mechanics of Brawl.

Why?

I hated tripping as much as anyone and Brawl was a bit too floaty but what about air dodging once, then plummeting like a lead balloon is great? I'm asking for an honest explanation, I'm genuinely clueless.

I was never even into the competitive scene but Melee's gameplay was just more fun. Simple as that.

It felt so good to hound your opponent with constant quick hits not allowing them to get away.
Now you pull off three hits consecutively and it's an achievement... Just doesn't give you the same rush.

In short, too much sparing not enough fast paced action.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You guys realize that you're gonna keep arguing about this and you'll never reach an agreement right?

Brawl vs Melee debates are worse than Fire Emblem debates.

 

[Vkrm]

"I didn't want to give up something good for something new."That's pretty much every melee's opinion on why they didn't move on to brawl.

 

[IsmaR]

I've already posted this too many times to count on 2 fingers, so just quoting at this point.

Trying to relive the past is only setting yourself up for failure. Brawl could never replace Melee, even if it was better. Expect similar results from the new games.

If anything, I hope both of these new titles will create their own identity and stop trying to live up to/live down their predecessors.

Melee nor Brawl are going anywhere. If you like one better than the other, good for you. Go enjoy playing it.

 

[Maricalistaro]

It's a pretty pointless argument considering Smash 4 is neither melee or brawl. Both parties are going to have to adapt to a completely new game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's a pretty pointless argument considering Smash 4 is neither melee or brawl. Both parties are going to have to adapt to a completely new game.

You sir, have my undying gratitude.

Thank you.

 

[Shorts]

Because I like how Melee plays. And I main Zelda, Bowser, Doc, and my favorite level in Brinstar depths.

Not every Melee lover is a Fox/Final Des ***. The game just plays at a nicer pace.

 

[SonicFlash]

Like some people said its, its own game. No its not going to be like brawl and no its not going to be like melee because its, its own game.

in other words it will have melee's balance. but hopefully the game will have a story mode like brawl but more adjusted into being better.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

An "inbetween" of Melee and Brawl sounds kind of boring to be honest, that's kind of what Brawl+ was and Brawl- and Project M both completely ate it up.

You know what Smash 4 needs to get everyone on board? Something drastically different, not terribad tripping hitstun cancelling different like Melee->Brawl but true evolution like 64->Melee where Sakurai upped the pacing, rebalanced L-Cancelling, added up/down throws and side specials, redid directional influence, and gave the entire cast fluid movement options.

There's a million things Sakurai could do to make Smash 4 such a unique game (L+B for special grabs?, character specific systems? Smash 4 trailer style flying DBZ aura 360 ground/air dashes? tag teams?) and honestly I don't care if anything ends up really broken or dumb as long as keeps the good things about all the previous Smash games (dynamic combos, fluid movement, face paced gameplay) in and throws something really wack and fun in there.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I've come to fear the words "deep" and "complex" in this site. They're thrown around FAR too much. :I

 

[[Corn]]

Id prefer brawl airdodge, No L cancels, higher hitstun, less edge magnetism.

I liked how brawl felt more then melee honestly.

 

[Spelt]

It shouldn't.


/thread

 

[Black Mantis]

The complaints Melee players have against Brawl are outdated and irrelevant. The game has evolved since 2008.

 

[Gust14]

I dont even wave dash. Melee is super fun, miles more fun than brawl

Wich is slow
has tripping
cant combo AT ALL
graphics dont fit the actual hits
you cant combo
you cant control your character with the same presicion
combos dont exist
stages suck
and you cant combo not even 2 hits

... That's why. And I dont even freaking wave dash or L cancel or nothing...

(And wave dash and combos is what makes competitive melee light years more popular than competitivbrawl, but thats just for competitive players. People who says "no items, fd, fox only" haven't seen the crapfest of "no items, wathever stage, metaknight only, 7 minutes of tornado" that are brawl tourneys)

 

[Frostwraith]

There must be like 2 or 3 posts discussing the same thing but whatever...

Both Melee and Brawl are good games. It seems, though, that people bash Brawl because it doesn't suit their tastes. If you don't like a game, just don't play it and respect other players with different opinions. Honestly, I don't care how any of the users here play. I played Melee and played Brawl my own way.

Fact is that Sakurai didn't make Brawl for competitive players. He catered to a different target.

Sakurai has the competitive community in account this time and will try to cater to all crowds. He's aware of how Melee is preferred over Brawl for tournaments and now wants a mid-term approach to appeal to all targets. All that is left to do is to look forward to the next game.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Because brawl ruined what a lot of people liked in the smash series to cater to one or two audiences within the smash fanbase. Not to mention, a lot of brawl's mechanics were counter intuitive to what smash is about. Brawl in a nutshell is basically anti-smash to a vast majority of people, whether they're tournament goer or complete item chuckin casual gamers. Brawl felt very wrong to a lot of people, and I hate to really drive a nail in the side of the brawl players who are already very defensive and have to put up with hate but plugging your ears and yelling LALALALA wont make brawl's obvious problems go away.

Hell, if you really look at it, brawl turned out a bit more imba than Melee despite claims otherwise, so you can throw that on the list of reasons too.

All I hope for out of Smash 4 is it not to be brawl 2.0, it doesn't have to be melee 2.0 but it DOES have to not suck.

 

[[Corn]]

I dont even wave dash. Melee is super fun, miles more fun than brawl

Which is slow
has tripping
cant combo AT ALL
graphics dont fit the actual hits
you cant combo
you cant control your character with the same presicion
combos dont exist
stages suck
and you cant combo not even 2 hits

... That's why. And I dont even freaking wave dash or L cancel or nothing...

(And wave dash and combos is what makes competitive melee light years more popular than competitive brawl, but thats just for competitive players. People who says "no items, fd, fox only" haven't seen the crapfest of "no items, wathever stage, metaknight only, 7 minutes of tornado" that are brawl tourneys)

Tripping is bad, no denying that. Its gone though now.
You dont have to have extreme combos to be good, its more of a preference.
Ever heard of phantom hitboxes? Look at Ganons Dair in melee.
Pretty sure you could control your character quite well. Considering you didnt Wavedash or I assume dash dance.
Stages were nearly the same.

Brawls faults were the reduced hitstun and Magnet ledges. Not gaining the advantage for hitting your opponent was what turned people off as well as what made it a more defensive game. Judging by what I have seen of the game, it looks like hitstun is easily enough to allow for more aggression whilst at the same time not being melees either. Magnet ledges are self explanatory.

Dude, you dont even bring up Meta in brawl, he completely broke the meta game and is still considered completely broken. Most people on the tier list are there because of how they fare against that character. I agree that Brawl tournies that allow him are a joke though.

 

[Gust14]

I'm not talking about extreme combos, I'm talking about simple 2-hit-strings, it's a fighting game cmon!
Ever watched the hitboxes gifs from melee and compared them to brawl's, there's enough evidence
PM team has already proven that brawl has dead frames all over the place, the exactitud of movement is not the same
Stages were nearly the same, except brawl's were worst, and stage builder didnt fix anything, nobody plays on custom stages except for random lols

Altough you're totally right "Not gaining the advantage for hitting your opponent was what turned people off..." <<<- THIS a million times. If op is looking for a straight answer this what he should look at

 

[[Corn]]

I'm not talking about extreme combos, I'm talking about simple 2-hit-strings, it's a fighting game cmon!
Ever watched the hitboxes gifs from melee and compared them to brawl's, there's enough evidence
PM team has already proven that brawl has dead frames all over the place, the exactitud of movement is not the same
Stages were nearly the same, except brawl's were worst, and stage builder didnt fix anything, nobody plays on custom stages except for random lols

Altough you're totally right "Not gaining the advantage for hitting your opponent was what turned people off..." <- THIS a million times. If op is looking for a straight answer this what he should look at

The only really bad hitboxs from Brawl were what? Snake in general?
I see where you are coming from with the mobility,but I honestly like the movement in brawl. If you could link a page that shows that I would like it alot.
I dont understand the stage gripe. What was wrong with Battlefeild/Final/Smashville/Yoshis?


I mean by extreme combos like 64's 0-death with every character type ones. I dont mind the melee ones at all.

 

[TreK]

stuff

The stage builder has been considered at some point. We needed a fifth starter because both PS1 and Lylat Cruise sucked in that role. We may have thought of doing this 'a bit too late', and it may have cost us the possibility to convince the community into using it. Habits and traditions aren't changed easily, even when it's for the better.
Also, it would not have been a smart move as the fashion was ''hey, let's make the MLG guys proud of us again'' at that time, and it would have been as unprofessional for them to sponsor tournaments with custom stages as it would have been to host tournaments with hacks.

As for the other points, they've been answered a thousand times already, and to put it gently, you are misinformed about this game's metagame.

 

[StriCNYN3]

It doesn't necessarily have to be like Melee, but the game does set a good guideline for a really promising fighter. My only wishes for SSB4 to mimic or even improve upon Melee is it's intuitive and responsive controls. I prefer the characters to move in the immediate direction I hold towards like Melee provides instead of Brawl's delayed inputs.

Also, things like the teching window, hitstun and character weight being akin to Melee are bonuses for me.