Why should 4's system be like Melees?

[KayB]

I don't mind if someone says they like Brawl better than Melee, but what I do mind is if someone makes an opinion without actually understanding the fundamentals of both. ex. I'm sick and tired of Brawl players who throw Melee under the bus simply because they can't wavedash (won't put in the work for it) or understand what it does for the game.

MELEE IS A HARD GAME. Its not a game that you can master or understand in one afternoon. It takes practice and effort and time getting used to. If you only scratch the surface of the pond, your never going to see what lies beneath it. These people have to understand that the people who like Melee ARE NOT people who haven't explored the depths of the game, so you can't expect to have the same experience if you don't search for it in the first place.

This applies to Brawl as well, and it still remains underrated.

If you actually have played both to their full extent and enjoy Brawl more, good for you. Melee is one of my favorite games ever, and if you have found it game that is equally if not more satisfying, than I'm happy for you.

 

[Pacack]

Allow me to leave my thoughts as someone who enjoys Melee and Brawl nearly equally, and would love to see a balance in SSB4.

A: I must start this by getting this out of the way, as it appears to be a large part of this Melee vs. Brawl thing: Personally, I do not really like wave-dashing for one big reason (and, no, it is not that I cannot do it). The reason being that it doesn't make any sense! I like the concept of giving all characters a way to have fluid movement, and there is certainly a positive effect on the balance of the game, but wave-dashing has a couple of things that just are unappealing:

1.) It doesn't LOOK right! I know, I know, it gives Melee something that allows slower/more awkward characters to move more fluently and, from a competitive point of view, makes them more viable to be used in a competitive format. I do not deny this at all. The thing is, common sense tells me that sliding across the ground by dodging in a specific way is not possible, and, even in a fairly cartoon-y atmosphere, seems wrong.

2.) It's fairly complex in comparison to other game mechanics, and it shouldn't be. Think about it: we have a mechanic that is never mentioned by the in-game tutorial, never used by CPU's, and rarely found by players on their own without use of the internet. It is also complex to perform in comparison to the game's other 'advanced' techniques (i.e. meteor smashes). This is all a problem. Why? Because something that makes the game more competitively viable should not be hidden from semi-casual players who have only used the game itself as their guide. In other words, it shouldn't punish players for not going to unofficial sources to learn their game. That is bad.

B: Now, for the other side of this...Brawl's slowness. Although I like the ability to be defensive SO MUCH, as Melee was a bit too offensive-focused, I cannot stress how much I hate the floaty-ness and slowness of Brawl in comparison to Melee. It really did, as others said, take away the benefit from hitting another player. Making combos of four hits nearly impossible to perform because of them extending the time of animations is just sad and shouldn't have been done. That, combined with the fact that there was no longer a reliable way for some characters to move fluidly also hurts, as it makes the game's characters unbalanced. And, honestly, that's what is boils down to. Brawl's physics and balance are both way off, even though it improved a LOT on the defensive side of the Smash Bros. series.


Looking at both of these things, this is what I want to see: give us something that is like wave-dashing in the way that it makes slower characters more fluid in their movements in an effort to make the game more balanced, while still keeping defensive and offensive strategies equally viable. I would absolutely ADORE it if they made it so that air-dodging into the floor would make the character roll across the floor at a fast speed or if they did something along those lines, as it would balance the game a bit more and still would make sense. In the end, I just want them make SSB4 so balanced that we can't make 'tiers' or call one character better than another, even if that is accomplished in another way than mine. That's what I hope happens with the game. And, in the end, isn't that what we should all strive for?

 

[Aidebit]

2.) It's fairly complex in comparison to other game mechanics, and it shouldn't be. Think about it: we have a mechanic that is never mentioned by the in-game tutorial, never used by CPU's, and rarely found by players on their own without use of the internet. It is also complex to perform in comparison to the game's other 'advanced' techniques (i.e. meteor smashes). This is all a problem. Why? Because something that makes the game more competitively viable should not be hidden from semi-casual players who have only used the game itself as their guide. In other words, it shouldn't punish players for not going to unofficial sources to learn their game. That is bad.

I don't think wavedashing is hard. It's a sort of complex technique that adds a lot of depth, that's good.
Also, if Sakurai would just say, "Hey, Advanced Technique X is in the game, here's how to do it!" then there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Pacack]

I don't think wavedashing is hard. It's a sort of complex technique that adds a lot of depth, that's good.
Also, if Sakurai would just say, "Hey, Advanced Technique X is in the game, here's how to do it!" then there wouldn't be a problem.

That's what I'm partially saying. It's not hard, per se, but it is relatively complex, and therefore would be deserving of something tutorial-related to ever to be accepted by the majority as official instead of as a glitch by some and a technique by the others.

EDIT: And, for the record, I was basically trying to say that the effects that wave-dashing had/have are good, but that it should have been embraced more at least a little bit in the game so that it could have been considered an official technique rather than an abuse of the poor physics engine.

 

[PhlipDarkRiot]

What if we had dash-crawling implemented? An easy to perform and possibly more visually appealing substitute for wavedashing. I don't think it's that hard, but as someone who hasn't spent 10 years doing it, it's irritating how precise wavedashing has to be. The concept of it isn't incredibly unique in fighting games either, and in no tournament fighter does ground movement complicate itself beyond pressing a direction once or twice.

 

[Zeallyx]

Because Melee is still fun today and Brawl not so much.

 

[El Duderino]

The air dodge in Melee is both an evasive maneuver and a positioning tool. It also follows risk vs reward, given its punishable nature.

Brawl's air dodge is a bit bland in comparison. They removed the complexities that added more interest and interplay between players.

 

[WokeR]

Why can't we get both airdodges??

L - Brawl airdodge
R - Melee airdodge

This would be really great because you can could do all the advanced techniques from Melee, including wavedashing OoS and still have one extra option to use the multiple, non-directional airdodge from Brawl.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^ That would be pretty cool. I would have to switch the buttons since I wavedash with L though.

 

[KayB]

Why can't we get both airdodges??

L - Brawl airdodge
R - Melee airdodge

This would be really great because you can could do all the advanced techniques from Melee, including wavedashing OoS and still have one extra option to use the multiple, non-directional airdodge from Brawl.

But the main problem is that doing a Brawl airdodge often has very little risk and a lot of reward. Its like TAC's in Marvel, it isn't a balanced system.

 

[DakotaBonez]

The next Smash Bros just needs more speed and hitstun.
Maybe because we only play 1 vs 1 no item matches, we can't see the logic in having infinite dodges like in Brawl.
Maybe this would all be fixed by making throws undodgeable and adding air throws? Hey has anyone noticed any new mechanics in SSB4?

 

[FirestormNeos]

The next Smash Bros just needs more speed and hitstun.
Maybe because we only play 1 vs 1 no item matches, we can't see the logic in having infinite dodges like in Brawl.
Maybe this would all be fixed by making throws undodgeable and adding air throws? Hey has anyone noticed any new mechanics in SSB4?

Yes to Air Throws. But WHY WOULD THROWS BE UNDODGEABLE!?!

 

[DakotaBonez]

Yes to Air Throws. But WHY WOULD THROWS BE UNDODGEABLE!?!

I didn't really think it through, it's enough that you can grab someone who is blocking, I just figured that if someone tries to grab you in the air it'd be impossible to dodge.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I didn't really think it through, it's enough that you can grab someone who is blocking, I just figured that if someone tries to grab you in the air it'd be impossible to dodge.

That would still suck.

 

[Lemonwater]

It shouldn't be like Melee's. IMO, Brawl+ was the perfect game and I never understood the hype with Project M.

Melee was fun way back when, but I honestly don't want to be playing the same game for 15 years.

 

[Renji64]

The problem to me is the series never evolved like from n64 to melee. Brawl really took the series on a downward spiral. I'll just accept the game for what it is i sucks to have to keep lowering expectations.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Before Brawl came out, I honestly was not dreaming and hoping for "Melee HD". I was ready for a new game. It was only after it came out that I suddenly found myself longing for a Melee HD.

My expectations for Smash 4 are much the same. I don't want it to be like Melee (or Brawl for that matter). I'm OK with the game going new directions. I just want it to be fast and furious. I want technical depth, not chess-style depth. That does not mean I want it to be hard to play/master. I just want interesting mechanics to emerge.

 

[kackamee]

Before Brawl came out, I honestly was not dreaming and hoping for "Melee HD". I was ready for a new game. It was only after it came out that I suddenly found myself longing for a Melee HD.

My expectations for Smash 4 are much the same. I don't want it to be like Melee (or Brawl for that matter). I'm OK with the game going new directions. I just want it to be fast and furious. I want technical depth, not chess-style depth. That does not mean I want it to be hard to play/master. I just want interesting mechanics to emerge.

This is pretty much how I feel. I liked the "chess-style" feel of Brawl, but I'm ready for something new. I like the direction the gameplay seems to be going in from the videos and hopefully there will be some cool new mechanics to use again this time.

 

[Neanderthal]

"I didn't want to give up something good for something new."That's pretty much every melee's opinion on why they didn't move on to brawl.

Actually most did move onto Brawl.
It's a great game and did many things well. But the core gameplay just isn't quite as enjoyable to most people.
I don't care if it's more like Melee or not. I just want it to be faster paced.


Also, this quote from Sakurai:

When you look at fighting game forums, you'll see a preference for Melee, and yet, I think there are lots of people in the silent majority who don't post online who prefer Brawl. Ever since I started working on the Kirby series, I've always thought about the needs of the less vocal, beginning players of games."

 

[ZXCV4523]

There must be like 2 or 3 posts discussing the same thing but whatever...

Both Melee and Brawl are good games. It seems, though, that people bash Brawl because it doesn't suit their tastes. If you don't like a game, just don't play it and respect other players with different opinions. Honestly, I don't care how any of the users here play. I played Melee and played Brawl my own way.

Fact is that Sakurai didn't make Brawl for competitive players. He catered to a different target.

Sakurai has the competitive community in account this time and will try to cater to all crowds. He's aware of how Melee is preferred over Brawl for tournaments and now wants a mid-term approach to appeal to all targets. All that is left to do is to look forward to the next game.

Wow i had no idea that they are trying to hit a middle as you said to cater to all crowds thats great :D now i am really interested to see what they do

 

[KayB]

That does not mean I want it to be hard to play/master. I just want interesting mechanics to emerge.

I prefer a game that is harder to master because ultimately it gives you an amazing satisfaction once you've worked hard to get good at it, and it always gives you the feeling that there's more room for improvement. That's not to say that the game shouldn't appeal to casual gamers. The beauty of Melee (and parts of Brawl) is that you didn't need to know the advanced techniques to have fun.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I prefer a game that is harder to master because ultimately it gives you an amazing satisfaction once you've worked hard to get good at it, and it always gives you the feeling that there's more room for improvement. That's not to say that the game shouldn't appeal to casual gamers. The beauty of Melee (and parts of Brawl) is that you didn't need to know the advanced techniques to have fun.

I don't mind there being individual techniques that are difficult to master. It's just that a lot of people complained over things as overarching as L-canceling and wavedashing.

 

[Mr.C]

I don't mind there being individual techniques that are difficult to master. It's just that a lot of people complained over things as overarching as L-canceling and wavedashing.

Honestly, those people have absolutely no right to judge a games advanced techniques or competitive depth when they have no interest in actually playing the game competitively. I don't understand why casual Smash players are so vehemently against deeper game-play when they're not going to be playing the game at a top-tier level anyways. They're not going to tournaments, they're not dedicating the hours of practice it takes to play at that level, and they're going to play casually with their friends anyways. Why are they so worried about what competitive players are doing or what competitive techniques are in a game when they absolutely do not effect them?

 

[MuraRengan]

At this point, for all intents and purposes, everyone knows that Melee was the best possible smash experience. The casual experience of Melee and the competitive one are eons apart. That's why I don't buy it when people say that they prefer brawl, but never experienced competitive melee. Considering that literally none of the good Melee players switched to Brawl (except M2K, who went mainly for the money.) It's not just about l-cancelling and wavedashing. Those are only part of yhe things that made the full experience. The physics, the mechanics, the characters' movesets and properties, dashdancing - all of that stuff added up to a fast paced game with immense depth that was fun to play and to practice.

Imo, Brawl doesn't even come close to Melee as a Smash experience, and I played it up until 2010. As i saw the metagame develop and I realized what style of play that brawl was developing, I realized that my dissatisfaction with the game was only going to get worse. The style just wasn't as fun and I didn't want to improve if improving wasn't fun. But Brawl's competitive metagame is deep. Not nearly as deep as Melee's, but i wont vilify people for being content with less depth.

People can prefer what they want, but as far as making a new smash goes, the precedent should be the game with the best reputation, most dedicated fanbase, and the one that provides the best experience. Even if you like Brawl more, you should be able to admit that a fast paced game is better for overall game design.

But that's all competitive talk. There's much more to consider outside the realms of the competitive scene.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Not to say that Smash 4 can't be different and still please both. The 4 Street Fighter games (with Alpha replacing the archaic 1) are worlds apart but all still have big scenes.

I guess they have to be fun to watch as they are to play, even when the random factors like items and stage gimmicks are removed. Think that was Brawl's weakness?

 

[Ulevo]

I don't mind if someone says they like Brawl better than Melee, but what I do mind is if someone makes an opinion without actually understanding the fundamentals of both. ex. I'm sick and tired of Brawl players who throw Melee under the bus simply because they can't wavedash (won't put in the work for it) or understand what it does for the game.

MELEE IS A HARD GAME. Its not a game that you can master or understand in one afternoon. It takes practice and effort and time getting used to. If you only scratch the surface of the pond, your never going to see what lies beneath it. These people have to understand that the people who like Melee ARE NOT people who haven't explored the depths of the game, so you can't expect to have the same experience if you don't search for it in the first place.

This applies to Brawl as well, and it still remains underrated.

If you actually have played both to their full extent and enjoy Brawl more, good for you. Melee is one of my favorite games ever, and if you have found it game that is equally if not more satisfying, than I'm happy for you.

This is one of the better explanations I've heard on the topic. And one of the reasons I believe Melee enthusiasts are often deemed 'elitist', to the extent that that's even valid, is because a lot of these players have experienced Melee. However, in Brawl's case, it doesn't have a high ceiling for skill or experience at all. It's fundamentals and learning curve is very shallow by comparison (a lot of those same principles evident in Melee as well.) So coming from an experienced Melee players perspective, I feel its much easier to make an objective statements on both games than the reverse since most players opting to do so with only Brawl level entry experience have never had the full Melee experience.

All this being said, there is a distinct difference between design choices, and design problems. Brawl had a lot of different design choices that purposely set itself on a different path from the other two games. It also had a **** ton of design problems. If it can move away from those problems and still be an enjoyable experience in a competitive sense (whether if that be due to being like Melee or not), I'm sure it would make MANY people happy.

 

[J1NG]

I think Smash 4's system should have a mix of Melee's and Brawl's hitstun. The way I'd go about accomplishing this is by introducing counter hits.
For those who don't know what that is, the way I define a counter hit is when you attack and damage your enemy while said enemy is in the middle of an attack. This has been used in series' like Street Fighter, Blazblue, and Soul Calibur.
You might be able to tell by now, but I think that regular hits in Smash 4 should resemble Brawl hitstun while counter hits should resemble Melee hitstun.
Combine counter hits with the fact that Sakurai said that Smash 4 will be faster than Brawl but slower than Melee, and the next Smash may indeed be "competitively viable".
I also had an idea for different hit properties being applied when hit from behind, but that's a different story I suppose.
If anyone has any thoughts on this idea, I'd like to read them.

 

[Spaghetti]

personally i'd just like brawl airdodges with a more melee-esque hitstun and a speed in the middle of the two. i can imagine all the frame traps that you see in brawl right now with all the reads and what not translating into sick combos - that'd be cool beans

but what do i know

i suck at this game

 

[[Corn]]

personally i'd just like brawl airdodges with a more melee-esque hitstun and a speed in the middle of the two. i can imagine all the frame traps that you see in brawl right now with all the reads and what not translating into sick combos - that'd be cool beans

but what do i know

i suck at this game

This would be my favorite as well.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I preferred Brawl's air-dodges over Melee's. Yeah, I said it.

Recovery and spacing aside, directional air-dodging doesn't make any sense in physics, and I always hated helpless plummeting afterward in Melee. That's all I can really defend about Brawl though.

Everything else Melee did better.

 

[[Corn]]

Going into depth for what Id like:

-Brawl Airdodge, slightly increase cooldown between them
-No Brawl Magnetism towards ledges
-Brawl Autosnap to ledge
-Auto L cancel or severely reduced ending lag on air attacks/jumping in general
-Higher Hitstun
-Less dead frames in movement, allow for dash dancing
-Brawlish Power Sheild


Probably missed something, but I would really enjoy that game.

 

[KayB]

Why do people like Brawl's air dodge better? Is it because it makes things easier?

 

[Crispy4001]

An "inbetween" of Melee and Brawl sounds kind of boring to be honest, that's kind of what Brawl+ was and Brawl- and Project M both completely ate it up.

This is one of the most relevant points in the thread, and something that isn't being considered enough. I wouldn't write off SSB4 that felt like Brawl+ entirely, but IMO it didn't make a strong case for an amped up Brawl being enough in of itself.

Put me down in the camp of wanting him to add something drastically new to the combat system if that's how it's going to be. Not something contrived like Smash Balls, but a universal ability or change up that redefines how basic combat works as a positive.

 

[GamerGuy09]

This is why I like Project: M since it is the best of both worlds. It has Brawl's neat graphics, stages, and characters. (Wario is really fun in that game). While having Melee's competitiveness.....That being said though Brawl is still very fun. Sure it ain't as hardcore as Melee or Project: M. However it is a VERY fun game just to play with friends....sorry if I said anything wrong. I really hope that SSB4 is closer to Project: M than anything.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I like Brawl's graphics, but I abhor its audio. All the hardy impact and cut sounds were replaced with aluminum siding blowing in the wind.

 

[KayB]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. Brawl's audio was atrocious compared to Melee. Here, I'm mainly referencing things like Falcon's punches and Marth's sword.

 

[SmashBro99]

I don't play smash competitively so my melee is collecting dust wherever it is as it's the outdated version. As long as Smash 4 is fun to play and they add some interesting new content and mechanics I'll love it as I've loved them all, and then Brawl will collect dust.

Circle of life.

 

[etecoon]

smash 4's mechanics should be closer to melee's because frankly, brawl brought nothing positive to the table aside from streamlining the game technically. I never played melee competitively and have a lot more time into brawl at this point, it's just hard to ignore that melee is a superior product from an entertainment standpoint

that being said, I'm completely behind the idea of smash 4 being it's own game and not drawing entirely on its predecessors, I simply believe that most of the changes made in brawl can be classified as mistakes.

 

[Spaghetti]

Why do people like Brawl's air dodge better? Is it because it makes things easier?

no, for me personally it makes more sense the way brawl has it. it's not like it's unpunishable, and with my idea of melee hitstun with it there's still combos and all the positional disadvantages and punishes that melee players love. also logically while melee airdodges worked for melee, it was kinda weird that you could just position the way you were going to airdodge, and that you could airdodge into the ground and slide across it.

you can still blow up people who overabuseairdodges with frame traps, obviously, too

 

[Vkrm]

We need melee styled movement so much more than we need meleefied hitstun.